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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jan 7, 2022 16:13:26 GMT
Djokovic is free to leave the country any time according to Australia's government. "Novax Djokovic" is one of the best pun names I've seen. I'm a bit on the fence. I think people should be free to choose whether to have the vaccine or not (I'm happily 'boosted' and glad more people have had the vaccine than haven't) but also I have no problem with countries that have Yellow Fever certificate requirements for entry. The current situation is a conundrum. If it actually worked well to prevent community transmission then I can see more of an argument for it, but it doesn't (or at least, the worldwide mass outbreak of cases in countries where the vast majority of people have been vaccinated strongly suggests it has very little impact). So the argument then moves to them being an indirect threat in the sense that they're more likely to take up a hospital bed if they get it. But this can also be extended to things like obesity, alcoholism and smoking... We haven't taken measures against those things, presumably because it affects the rich and powerful, and there's money in it. I think I saw a statistic that mentioned that in the UK, less than 200 people under the age of 40 with no underlying health conditions have died from COVID-19 in the space of 2 years. And they aren't high-performing, ridiculously athletic tennis players... The implications of long COVID shouldn't be dismissed. I have a friend who had COVID over a year ago now, and she still doesn't feel right - mostly exhaustion. I haven't had COVID that I'm aware of, and it's long COVID that concerns me more than short-term illness. Some ridiculously athletic people under the age of 40 have had long COVID that prevents them from performing at a high level.
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Post by henry on Jan 7, 2022 16:15:08 GMT
Seek help - before it's too late Kids need to wear a mask at school during the day, whilst the parents can go out on the piss, stand at the bar singing at night and that's why we need to be tough on vaccination because people don't take enough personal responsibility. It is not obligatory to go on the piss because your kids are masked, you could choose to drink at home "Tough on vaccination" is that the (insert here) Party's new manifesto pledge. "Tough on Covid and the causes of Covid"
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Post by serpico on Jan 7, 2022 16:24:25 GMT
The mRNA vaccines won't get rid of the coronavirus, this is a totally different type of vaccination than the others you mention, the current crop of vaccines don't stop infection or transmission, lots of fully vaccinated are going down with covid now, its obvious it doesn't work that well and theres always going to be mutations that evade them, on top of that Djokovic has had covid already so he has antibodies, why would a top sportsman who's had the disease risk taking the vaccine even if the risk is minuscule ? The vaccine may not completely prevent covid, but the evidence is that it considerably reduces the risk of catching covid or, at least reduces the risk of hospitalisation of those ho do catch even after having been vaccinated. Surely that is in the public interest. I have not suggested that vaccination should be compulsory, but given the known facts, the unvaccinated should accept the consequences of their choice. I would find it difficult to accept the idea that the unvaccinated posed no risk to society. Yes, we should all face the consequences of our actions or non actions, but that isn't what this is, the consequences of not getting vaccinated (if they work as advertised) is a possible more serious bout of covid, it shouldn't be that you're ostracised from society or prevented from earning a living! this is inhumane and punitive, we live in a free society, the governments only job should be to offer the vaccine to everyone, thats where it should end, theyre overstepping the mark in coercing people into it through threats of having their livelihood destroyed, luckily we haven't gone there in this country yet, but we're on the same path as the currently demented power drunk and nasty Australian government.
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Post by serpico on Jan 7, 2022 16:28:50 GMT
Djokovic is a prime athlete, his diet is super healthy, he doesn't drink, smoke or have any other bad habits, he's super fit, he's had covid already and recovered fully, why the heck would he get a vaccine ? ... to make other people who've had the vaccine feel better about themselves ? its insane! this is why this blanket "everyone must get vaccinated" campaign is so insane, it should take into account prior infection, health and risk, Djokovic is clearly at a very low risk, he's also being tested all the time, he's less likely to spread it than a vaccinated spectator!
He's being punished for disobeying the overlords who are out of control and drunk on power.
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Post by superjw on Jan 7, 2022 16:38:52 GMT
The mRNA vaccines won't get rid of the coronavirus, this is a totally different type of vaccination than the others you mention, the current crop of vaccines don't stop infection or transmission, lots of fully vaccinated are going down with covid now, its obvious it doesn't work that well and theres always going to be mutations that evade them, on top of that Djokovic has had covid already so he has antibodies, why would a top sportsman who's had the disease risk taking the vaccine even if the risk is minuscule ? The vaccine may not completely prevent covid, but the evidence is that it considerably reduces the risk of catching covid or, at least reduces the risk of hospitalisation of those ho do catch even after having been vaccinated. Surely that is in the public interest. I have not suggested that vaccination should be compulsory, but given the known facts, the unvaccinated should accept the consequences of their choice. I would find it difficult to accept the idea that the unvaccinated posed no risk to society. Sorry but any evidence about vaccines and transmission is out of the window now we see populations with high levels of vaccination such as our own with rising levels of cases. It's pretty obvious the vaccine only protects the individual from serious illness and nothing more. Any impact thesr jabs are now having on transmission are slim to none
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Jan 7, 2022 16:44:05 GMT
The vaccine may not completely prevent covid, but the evidence is that it considerably reduces the risk of catching covid or, at least reduces the risk of hospitalisation of those ho do catch even after having been vaccinated. Surely that is in the public interest. I have not suggested that vaccination should be compulsory, but given the known facts, the unvaccinated should accept the consequences of their choice. I would find it difficult to accept the idea that the unvaccinated posed no risk to society. Sorry but any evidence about vaccines and transmission is out of the window now we see populations with high levels of vaccination such as our own with rising levels of cases. It's pretty obvious the vaccine only protects the individual from serious illness and nothing more. Any impact thesr jabs are now having on transmission are slim to none Yep, look at Israel, onto jab #4
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Post by serpico on Jan 7, 2022 16:47:36 GMT
Imagine you're Djokovic being lectured on health by some red cheeked, fat slob bureaucrat who no doubt quaffs cheese, crackers and wine every single night, its just embarrassing.
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Post by cerebralstokie on Jan 7, 2022 20:03:36 GMT
Imagine you're Djokovic being lectured on health by some red cheeked, fat slob bureaucrat who no doubt quaffs cheese, crackers and wine every single night, its just embarrassing. The use of emotive language does nothing to advance the cause you espouse. The fact remains that Australia has very strict rules concerning entry into the country for whatever purpose. Djokovic seems unable to comply with these. His status as a super athlete does not exempt him from them. You may not like the rules - many don't but if you go abroad you are subject to their laws. When in Rome do as the Romans do. As an aside, I lost a very close friend last year. Her granddaughter came over from Ne Zealand to attend the funeral (they were very close). She has found it very difficult to return because of their strict entry rules and now has a flight booked for February - over 4 months later as the rules have now been relaxed slightly.
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Post by salopstick on Jan 8, 2022 8:38:44 GMT
I really hope he wins this court hearing then just a jumps on the next plane
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Post by superjw on Jan 8, 2022 8:40:45 GMT
I really hope he wins this court hearing then just a jumps on the next plane As much as I would want him to, I can't see him getting a result either way because of the political involvement.
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Post by salopstick on Jan 8, 2022 8:42:41 GMT
The vaccine may not completely prevent covid, but the evidence is that it considerably reduces the risk of catching covid or, at least reduces the risk of hospitalisation of those ho do catch even after having been vaccinated. Surely that is in the public interest. I have not suggested that vaccination should be compulsory, but given the known facts, the unvaccinated should accept the consequences of their choice. I would find it difficult to accept the idea that the unvaccinated posed no risk to society. Yes, we should all face the consequences of our actions or non actions, but that isn't what this is, the consequences of not getting vaccinated (if they work as advertised) is a possible more serious bout of covid, it shouldn't be that you're ostracised from society or prevented from earning a living! this is inhumane and punitive, we live in a free society, the governments only job should be to offer the vaccine to everyone, thats where it should end, theyre overstepping the mark in coercing people into it through threats of having their livelihood destroyed, luckily we haven't gone there in this country yet, but we're on the same path as the currently demented power drunk and nasty Australian government. I disagree. We are on that path in this country Vaccine passports and nhs workers just the beginning Softly softly catch a monkey.
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Post by salopstick on Jan 8, 2022 8:45:18 GMT
Imagine you're Djokovic being lectured on health by some red cheeked, fat slob bureaucrat who no doubt quaffs cheese, crackers and wine every single night, its just embarrassing. The use of emotive language does nothing to advance the cause you espouse. The fact remains that Australia has very strict rules concerning entry into the country for whatever purpose. Djokovic seems unable to comply with these. His status as a super athlete does not exempt him from them. You may not like the rules - many don't but if you go abroad you are subject to their laws. When in Rome do as the Romans do. As an aside, I lost a very close friend last year. Her granddaughter came over from Ne Zealand to attend the funeral (they were very close). She has found it very difficult to return because of their strict entry rules and now has a flight booked for February - over 4 months later as the rules have now been relaxed slightly. As you said the rules are not right. The more high profile people like Djokovic fight the more the public will see this absolute absurdity
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Post by franklin on Jan 8, 2022 8:50:03 GMT
The use of emotive language does nothing to advance the cause you espouse. The fact remains that Australia has very strict rules concerning entry into the country for whatever purpose. Djokovic seems unable to comply with these. His status as a super athlete does not exempt him from them. You may not like the rules - many don't but if you go abroad you are subject to their laws. When in Rome do as the Romans do. As an aside, I lost a very close friend last year. Her granddaughter came over from Ne Zealand to attend the funeral (they were very close). She has found it very difficult to return because of their strict entry rules and now has a flight booked for February - over 4 months later as the rules have now been relaxed slightly. As you said the rules are not right. The more high profile people like Djokovic fight the more the public will see this absolute absurdity He's just being made an example of for government PR, dozens of "high" profile celebrities have fled to Australia over the last two years and I've not seen this reaction before. So what's changed ?? Well for me the public have become fed up with being imprisoned at home and are sick of the double standards and they've decided to unfortunately use a tennis star to deflect from the real story and to appease and justify restrictions to the Ausie public.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Jan 8, 2022 9:07:03 GMT
He’s now claiming to have had Covid in December but has had no symptoms for last 72 hours. So why has he only just revealed this? Perhaps it strengthens his exemption case as he can not have any vaccines for 12 weeks. I have a friend who lives in Melbourne and loves tennis. According to her, If he does get in he will get dogs abuse during his matches apparently. He’s seen as an arrogant, entitled person by many Ozzie’s who have endured almost 2 years of on/off lockdowns.
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Post by franklin on Jan 8, 2022 9:19:57 GMT
He’s now claiming to have had Covid in December but has had no symptoms for last 72 hours. So why has he only just revealed this? Perhaps it strengthens his exemption case as he can not have any vaccines for 12 weeks. I have a friend who lives in Melbourne and loves tennis. According to her, If he does get in he will get dogs abuse during his matches apparently. He’s seen as an arrogant, entitled person by many Ozzie’s who have endured almost 2 years of on/off lockdowns. Maybe it's because it's his private life and medical history and he didn't want to talk about it. The 72hrs is regarding the last 3 days of his 14day infection (a longer isolation period in whatever country he was 14days) in December. Its the same here if you test negative and have no symptoms on day 6 and 7 you're good to go if not it's 10days here.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Jan 8, 2022 9:45:33 GMT
He’s now claiming to have had Covid in December but has had no symptoms for last 72 hours. So why has he only just revealed this? Perhaps it strengthens his exemption case as he can not have any vaccines for 12 weeks. I have a friend who lives in Melbourne and loves tennis. According to her, If he does get in he will get dogs abuse during his matches apparently. He’s seen as an arrogant, entitled person by many Ozzie’s who have endured almost 2 years of on/off lockdowns. Maybe it's because it's his private life and medical history and he didn't want to talk about it. The 72hrs is regarding the last 3 days of his 14day infection (a longer isolation period in whatever country he was 14days) in December. Its the same here if you test negative and have no symptoms on day 6 and 7 you're good to go if not it's 10days here. Fair enough but if he wanted to keep his private life and medical history to himself, why reveal it at all. It’s the timing that is suspicious.
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Post by franklin on Jan 8, 2022 9:54:59 GMT
Maybe it's because it's his private life and medical history and he didn't want to talk about it. The 72hrs is regarding the last 3 days of his 14day infection (a longer isolation period in whatever country he was 14days) in December. Its the same here if you test negative and have no symptoms on day 6 and 7 you're good to go if not it's 10days here. Fair enough but if he wanted to keep his private life and medical history to himself, why reveal it at all. It’s the timing that is suspicious. Again it might be to placate the world's press and rightly or not he is a "brand" and bad PR is damaging and at some point he's had to give his side of the story. As we all know the pressure to explain can be relentless and maybe he genuinely was given an exemption from Tennis Australia and he feels he's being used so explained himself. He would be very silly to lie about these things as no doubt the truth will come out and Tennis Australia would expose him in an instant. Edit: the easiest thing for him to do was to leave immediately and say nothing but he's stood his ground and at some point in the next few days it will become clear if he's lied or mislead people for his visa or indeed he's being used for government PR.
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Post by stokeuk474 on Jan 8, 2022 11:13:01 GMT
I find it difficult to get my head around the idea that getting vaccinated is harmful. We have got rid of smallpox, polio (almost) worldwide and diphtheria through mass vaccination programmes and could do so against measles. Covid has caused more deaths in the U.K. than the number of civilians killed in the U.K.in World War 2. If someone chooses not to be vaccinated, then an employer should be free to not employ these people in occupations where they are perceived to be putting people at risk. Djokovic knew the rules. He cannot complain if he is not allowed into Australia because he cannot (or refuses to) comply with them. I am, however somewhat confused that the tennis authorities thought he was o.k. but the Federal authorites did not. It feels here like you are insinuating though, that people who are vaccinated don't transmit the disease whatsoever, when we know that is simply not true. We know that even if you're vaccinated, you can transmit the disease just as much as the unvaccinated. So this notion that if you get vaccinated, you are protecting others and 'not putting them at risk' is nonsense, you're simply reducing the risk for yourself, and only yourself.
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Post by felonious on Jan 8, 2022 13:18:33 GMT
I find it difficult to get my head around the idea that getting vaccinated is harmful. We have got rid of smallpox, polio (almost) worldwide and diphtheria through mass vaccination programmes and could do so against measles. Covid has caused more deaths in the U.K. than the number of civilians killed in the U.K.in World War 2. If someone chooses not to be vaccinated, then an employer should be free to not employ these people in occupations where they are perceived to be putting people at risk. Djokovic knew the rules. He cannot complain if he is not allowed into Australia because he cannot (or refuses to) comply with them. I am, however somewhat confused that the tennis authorities thought he was o.k. but the Federal authorites did not. It feels here like you are insinuating though, that people who are vaccinated don't transmit the disease whatsoever, when we know that is simply not true. We know that even if you're vaccinated, you can transmit the disease just as much as the unvaccinated. So this notion that if you get vaccinated, you are protecting others and 'not putting them at risk' is nonsense, you're simply reducing the risk for yourself, and only yourself. There are not many people out there who understand this. I've just had the same conversation with a fully vaccinated friend who even suggested that Djokovic could be a super spreader. I couldn't get the message across that this latest strain is flying through a vaccinated population. He was heading off down to Wetherspoons afterwards possibly one of the worst spots in Stoke to receive and pass on Covid. To put some perspective on it the kids had a pre Christmas get together with 6 friends all vaccinated to the hilt, all abiding by whatever rules are in force. Six of them ended up with Covid. Vaccinated people are a menace to society
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Post by stokeuk474 on Jan 8, 2022 13:28:48 GMT
It feels here like you are insinuating though, that people who are vaccinated don't transmit the disease whatsoever, when we know that is simply not true. We know that even if you're vaccinated, you can transmit the disease just as much as the unvaccinated. So this notion that if you get vaccinated, you are protecting others and 'not putting them at risk' is nonsense, you're simply reducing the risk for yourself, and only yourself. There are not many people out there who understand this. I've just had the same conversation with a fully vaccinated friend who even suggested that Djokovic could be a super spreader. I couldn't get the message across that this latest strain is flying through a vaccinated population. He was heading off down to Wetherspoons afterwards possibly one of the worst spots in Stoke to receive and pass on Covid. To put some perspective on it the kids had a pre Christmas get together with 6 friends all vaccinated to the hilt, all abiding by whatever rules are in force. Six of them ended up with Covid. Vaccinated people are a menace to society Exactly. Also another reason why vaccine passports are a nonsense. In fact, the govt may have struck lucky as more people are probably doing LFT's before they go to an event, rather than just relying on the vaccine, lowering the risk of transmission all round.
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Post by cerebralstokie on Jan 8, 2022 13:30:08 GMT
I find it difficult to get my head around the idea that getting vaccinated is harmful. We have got rid of smallpox, polio (almost) worldwide and diphtheria through mass vaccination programmes and could do so against measles. Covid has caused more deaths in the U.K. than the number of civilians killed in the U.K.in World War 2. If someone chooses not to be vaccinated, then an employer should be free to not employ these people in occupations where they are perceived to be putting people at risk. Djokovic knew the rules. He cannot complain if he is not allowed into Australia because he cannot (or refuses to) comply with them. I am, however somewhat confused that the tennis authorities thought he was o.k. but the Federal authorites did not. It feels here like you are insinuating though, that people who are vaccinated don't transmit the disease whatsoever, when we know that is simply not true. We know that even if you're vaccinated, you can transmit the disease just as much as the unvaccinated. So this notion that if you get vaccinated, you are protecting others and 'not putting them at risk' is nonsense, you're simply reducing the risk for yourself, and only yourself. You have a valid point, but I still think unvaccinated people pose a greater risk than would be the case if we had very high level of vaccination in the population to the point that we were approaching herd immunity. I still find it difficult, in view of the evidence available to understand why so many choose not to get vaccinated other that "they are free not to do so"
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Post by stokeuk474 on Jan 8, 2022 13:34:20 GMT
It feels here like you are insinuating though, that people who are vaccinated don't transmit the disease whatsoever, when we know that is simply not true. We know that even if you're vaccinated, you can transmit the disease just as much as the unvaccinated. So this notion that if you get vaccinated, you are protecting others and 'not putting them at risk' is nonsense, you're simply reducing the risk for yourself, and only yourself. You have a valid point, but I still think unvaccinated people pose a greater risk than would be the case if we had very high level of vaccination in the population to the point that we were approaching herd immunity. I still find it difficult, in view of the evidence available to understand why so many choose not to get vaccinated other that "they are free not to do so" Don't we already have a high enough percentage of the population vaccinated? Also, with these vaccines, even with 100% vaccinated, we'd never get herd immunity as they simply don't stop transmission.
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Post by felonious on Jan 8, 2022 13:59:32 GMT
It feels here like you are insinuating though, that people who are vaccinated don't transmit the disease whatsoever, when we know that is simply not true. We know that even if you're vaccinated, you can transmit the disease just as much as the unvaccinated. So this notion that if you get vaccinated, you are protecting others and 'not putting them at risk' is nonsense, you're simply reducing the risk for yourself, and only yourself. You have a valid point, but I still think unvaccinated people pose a greater risk than would be the case if we had very high level of vaccination in the population to the point that we were approaching herd immunity. I still find it difficult, in view of the evidence available to understand why so many choose not to get vaccinated other that "they are free not to do so" Just out of interest when do we reach herd immunity through vaccination? Vaccines don't stop you getting Covid. I've recently had Delta and the two vaccinations, masks, toeing the line didn't stop me getting it. Having Delta won't stop me getting Omicron.
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Post by cerebralstokie on Jan 8, 2022 14:21:44 GMT
You have a valid point, but I still think unvaccinated people pose a greater risk than would be the case if we had very high level of vaccination in the population to the point that we were approaching herd immunity. I still find it difficult, in view of the evidence available to understand why so many choose not to get vaccinated other that "they are free not to do so" Just out of interest when do we reach herd immunity through vaccination? Vaccines don't stop you getting Covid. I've recently had Delta and the two vaccinations, masks, toeing the line didn't stop me getting it. Having Delta won't stop me getting Omicron. Interesting point, but I remember hearing one of the top medics say that we would get herd immunity when nearly all of the population has immunity either through vaccination or having had Covid to the point that any new variants would not be able to spread readily.
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Post by felonious on Jan 8, 2022 14:33:16 GMT
Just out of interest when do we reach herd immunity through vaccination? Vaccines don't stop you getting Covid. I've recently had Delta and the two vaccinations, masks, toeing the line didn't stop me getting it. Having Delta won't stop me getting Omicron. Interesting point, but I remember hearing one of the top medics say that we would get herd immunity when nearly all of the population has immunity either through vaccination or having had Covid to the point that any new variants would not be able to spread readily. 90% of over 12s are vaccinated. Omicrom is ripping through the population. We were told that vaccination was the way out. The way out is to treat it like the flu vaccine and administer to vulnerable people. The money currently being wasted on vaccinations of fit and healthy young people, etc should be spent on educating the unhealthy in society. People who are overweight, people who drink in excess of the recommended limits, smokers and vapers, people who are allergic to exercise, the druggies, etc in the hope that one day in the future there will be less pressure on the NHS.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Jan 8, 2022 14:42:27 GMT
It feels here like you are insinuating though, that people who are vaccinated don't transmit the disease whatsoever, when we know that is simply not true. We know that even if you're vaccinated, you can transmit the disease just as much as the unvaccinated. So this notion that if you get vaccinated, you are protecting others and 'not putting them at risk' is nonsense, you're simply reducing the risk for yourself, and only yourself. You have a valid point, but I still think unvaccinated people pose a greater risk than would be the case if we had very high level of vaccination in the population to the point that we were approaching herd immunity. I still find it difficult, in view of the evidence available to understand why so many choose not to get vaccinated other that "they are free not to do so" How do you explain Israel who have almost everyone on the 3rd jab and moving to the 4th yet cases are soaring or Ireland one of the most vaxxed country on earth who have the 7th highest number of cases (per capita) in the World?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 8, 2022 15:13:04 GMT
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Post by felonious on Jan 8, 2022 15:16:41 GMT
You have a valid point, but I still think unvaccinated people pose a greater risk than would be the case if we had very high level of vaccination in the population to the point that we were approaching herd immunity. I still find it difficult, in view of the evidence available to understand why so many choose not to get vaccinated other that "they are free not to do so" How do you explain Israel who have almost everyone on the 3rd jab and moving to the 4th yet cases are soaring or Ireland one of the most vaxxed country on earth who have the 7th highest number of cases (per capita) in the World? Wales more vaxxed than England, far greater restrictions, transmission rate way ahead of England. It's about time all these bastard politicians took politics completely out of the equation. Politicians, scientific community, medical profession all driven by fear.
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Post by GrahamHyde on Jan 8, 2022 17:53:33 GMT
Interesting point, but I remember hearing one of the top medics say that we would get herd immunity when nearly all of the population has immunity either through vaccination or having had Covid to the point that any new variants would not be able to spread readily. The money currently being wasted on vaccinations of fit and healthy young people, etc should be spent on educating the unhealthy in society. Absolutely. Or to donate those same third and fourth vaccines to elderly, vulnerable people in other less fortunate parts of the world that actually need them and are yet to have any. Many parts of Africa, for example. The same people that preach about protecting others are quite happy taking it away from someone who would actually benefit far, far more from it. We'd be much better off focussing on a global effort to ensure the most vulnerable people are given access to vaccination before we start to hoard vaccines for 3rd, 4th, 5th doses within perfectly healthy young people in Western societies.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 8, 2022 18:21:36 GMT
The money currently being wasted on vaccinations of fit and healthy young people, etc should be spent on educating the unhealthy in society. Absolutely. Or to donate those same third and fourth vaccines to elderly, vulnerable people in other less fortunate parts of the world that actually need them and are yet to have any. Many parts of Africa, for example. The same people that preach about protecting others are quite happy taking it away from someone who would actually benefit far, far more from it. We'd be much better off focussing on a global effort to ensure the most vulnerable people are given access to vaccination before we start to hoard vaccines for 3rd, 4th, 5th doses within perfectly healthy young people in Western societies. That's a very good point. Not least because what we're effectively doing by not ensuring the rest of the less developed world is vaccinated too is the equivalent of taking half a course of antibiotics then stopping. All that does is select for the stronger, more resistant bacteria. In the same way, leaving half the world effectively unvaccinated just creates perfect conditions for new variations to evolve and pose new threats to us.
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