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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 21, 2022 6:14:41 GMT
That was the whole point though - when it did drop the manager didn’t trust Doughty to step in. He didn’t but he’s also the bloke that watches him in training every day and should have a better idea than anyone of whether he’s capable of stepping in. If he goes on and has a blinder of a season at Luton then the manager definitely deserves some criticism. Either way it suggests we didn’t do our homework, doesn’t it?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 21, 2022 7:24:01 GMT
So who's responsible if not the person at the head of recruitment decisions and the set ups used for those players to operate in? The manager is responsible and is always responsible at this club. Sit back and think about it. Realise that any manager employed by these owners is always going to have limitations, always going to be a pragmatic type, always going to be a bit broken in parts. Sit back and recognise that the one we have is probably at the better end of those types of appointments, but also realise that any manager employed by these owners is going to be restricted in parts by the way they run the show. There isn't a manager out there at this level that doesn't make mistakes, doesn't sign a bad player and there certainly isn't a Coates family appointment that doesn't. History proves it. Take a step back and look at them all and the decisions they've made dotted in and around the infrequent good times spanning 10+ years. Unless of course you believe in fairies and that Nathan Jones had a brain transplant when he left Luton to take out his brain and another one to have it re-inserted when he rejoined them, for example, or Rowett really was an excellent talent spotter and wasted 50M+ because he had something inserted into his tea. Take it from someone who sat on here regularly last summer calling for this managers head before slowly looking at things and realising that. I'm clearly being thick here but I'm not connecting the dots at all. You're acknowledging (rightly) that the manager has responsibility for the big decisions (which is absolutely a huge part of the problem) but then seem to suggest something else was at play with the signings Jones and Rowett made? I must've missed Rowett's 'excellent talent spotter' label prior to joining us - this is a man who has signed Ryan Woods twice... Jones as you say clearly needed help but nobody made him sign the ill-fitting players he did. People are acting like the failure of various managers is nothing to do with the managers themselves given they've done decent jobs subsequently elsewhere but it's more complicated than that. We should absolutely have a structure that helps them more but if a manager wants to play with a lone striker and signs one completely unsuited to that job - and then does it again - I really don't see how that's on anyone else but him? Help me out here?
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Post by milky on Jun 21, 2022 7:29:57 GMT
Tymon you fucking bastard! Stop improving with every game You’re making the manager look shit What’s Tymon got to do with it? He’s shown no desire to play him as a left wing back really has he? I'm actually still having nightmares from watching Morgan Fox play LWB. I can't recall the exact circumstances other than we were short on midfield players and had to move Tymon central. I assume Doughty was injured!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2022 8:00:51 GMT
Yep what a mess we are compared to say our nearest biggest club Man United? Them as well
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2022 8:03:05 GMT
Yep what a mess we are compared to say our nearest biggest club Derby? Or Leicester? Or Forest? We need to step away from this mentality of “Don’t be unhappy, it could be worse” Forest have been over 20 years outside the top flight not that it really matters as was obvious was referring to Derby.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 21, 2022 8:08:43 GMT
That was the whole point though - when it did drop the manager didn’t trust Doughty to step in. He didn’t but he’s also the bloke that watches him in training every day and should have a better idea than anyone of whether he’s capable of stepping in. If he goes on and has a blinder of a season at Luton then the manager definitely deserves some criticism. He did well at Cardiff though didn't he?
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Post by a on Jun 21, 2022 8:09:44 GMT
Derby? Or Leicester? Or Forest? We need to step away from this mentality of “Don’t be unhappy, it could be worse” Forest have been over 20 years outside the top flight not that it really matters as was obvious was referring to Derby. Again though, this ‘little old Stoke’ attitude is outdated.
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Post by Championship Potter on Jun 21, 2022 8:11:53 GMT
He didn’t but he’s also the bloke that watches him in training every day and should have a better idea than anyone of whether he’s capable of stepping in. If he goes on and has a blinder of a season at Luton then the manager definitely deserves some criticism. Either way it suggests we didn’t do our homework, doesn’t it? I’d agree generally but think you have cut them some slack when it’s a young player coming back from a serious hamstring injury that impacted this single biggest attribute (pace). Every signing is a gamble to some extent and if he’s not looking the part in training is it wise to throw him on the pitch just to see if he steps up a level?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jun 21, 2022 8:14:49 GMT
Either way it suggests we didn’t do our homework, doesn’t it? I’d agree generally but think you have cut them some slack when it’s a young player coming back from a serious hamstring injury that impacted this single biggest attribute (pace). Every signing is a gamble to some extent and if he’s not looking the part in training is it wise to throw him on the pitch just to see if he steps up a level? To be honest I'm not sure training's always the best barometer anyway - there are numerous examples of good players who were by their own admission poor trainers. We can't know everything that's gone on behind the scenes but the top and bottom of it is that this is another instance of a player we paid a fee for - which is a luxury in our current predicament - that hasn't worked out or suited us at all. We really need to get our recruitment right just to stand still and the picture is mixed to put it very generously.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2022 8:15:40 GMT
Forest have been over 20 years outside the top flight not that it really matters as was obvious was referring to Derby. Again though, this ‘little old Stoke’ attitude is outdated. I agree but have never used it anyway.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 21, 2022 8:16:11 GMT
The manager is responsible and is always responsible at this club. Sit back and think about it. Realise that any manager employed by these owners is always going to have limitations, always going to be a pragmatic type, always going to be a bit broken in parts. Sit back and recognise that the one we have is probably at the better end of those types of appointments, but also realise that any manager employed by these owners is going to be restricted in parts by the way they run the show. There isn't a manager out there at this level that doesn't make mistakes, doesn't sign a bad player and there certainly isn't a Coates family appointment that doesn't. History proves it. Take a step back and look at them all and the decisions they've made dotted in and around the infrequent good times spanning 10+ years. Unless of course you believe in fairies and that Nathan Jones had a brain transplant when he left Luton to take out his brain and another one to have it re-inserted when he rejoined them, for example, or Rowett really was an excellent talent spotter and wasted 50M+ because he had something inserted into his tea. Take it from someone who sat on here regularly last summer calling for this managers head before slowly looking at things and realising that. I'm clearly being thick here but I'm not connecting the dots at all. You're acknowledging (rightly) that the manager has responsibility for the big decisions (which is absolutely a huge part of the problem) but then seem to suggest something else was at play with the signings Jones and Rowett made? I must've missed Rowett's 'excellent talent spotter' label prior to joining us - this is a man who has signed Ryan Woods twice... Jones as you say clearly needed help but nobody made him sign the ill-fitting players he did. People are acting like the failure of various managers is nothing to do with the managers themselves given they've done decent jobs subsequently elsewhere but it's more complicated than that. We should absolutely have a structure that helps them more but if a manager wants to play with a lone striker and signs one completely unsuited to that job - and then does it again - I really don't see how that's on anyone else but him? Help me out here? Neither Rowett nor Jones have proved anything you didn’t already know about them before they came to Stoke. Rowett has gone back to producing a resilient side on a shoestring and Jones has gone back to managing non entity players who don’t think they’re far too good to be listening to a no mark like him. Rowett hasn’t proven he’s any good with a big budget, Jones hasn’t proved his pashun and motivational speaking are effective with players with higher pedigree. MON hasn’t proved he’s got any idea other than keeping it tight and keeping the score down. Football managers very rarely change or develop much from what first bought them success.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 21, 2022 8:19:00 GMT
Either way it suggests we didn’t do our homework, doesn’t it? I’d agree generally but think you have cut them some slack when it’s a young player coming back from a serious hamstring injury that impacted this single biggest attribute (pace). Every signing is a gamble to some extent and if he’s not looking the part in training is it wise to throw him on the pitch just to see if he steps up a level? They but then you've said why this was a massive gamble and why we probably shouldn't have gone near him with a bargepole.
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 21, 2022 8:21:31 GMT
He didn’t but he’s also the bloke that watches him in training every day and should have a better idea than anyone of whether he’s capable of stepping in. If he goes on and has a blinder of a season at Luton then the manager definitely deserves some criticism. He did well at Cardiff though didn't he? MON quite clearly lied through his teeth when loaning him to Cardiff. He must already have closed his mind by then otherwise he’d have at least taken a week or two of pre season to take a look at him.
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Post by Billy the kid on Jun 21, 2022 8:37:59 GMT
Some quite unsavory things being said about him or implied on twitter.
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Post by stokie1947 on Jun 21, 2022 8:40:14 GMT
i thought Doughty had promise and would have kept him time will tell
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Post by LGH87 on Jun 21, 2022 9:06:33 GMT
Some quite unsavory things being said about him or implied on twitter. What like mate?
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 21, 2022 9:10:44 GMT
Some quite unsavory things being said about him or implied on twitter. What like mate? and by whom?
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Post by spitthedog on Jun 21, 2022 9:12:02 GMT
He didn’t but he’s also the bloke that watches him in training every day and should have a better idea than anyone of whether he’s capable of stepping in. If he goes on and has a blinder of a season at Luton then the manager definitely deserves some criticism. He did well at Cardiff though didn't he? If so I wonder why they haven't snapped him up? Surely they would be in a stronger position than Luton to do so?
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Post by Billy the kid on Jun 21, 2022 9:12:31 GMT
Some quite unsavory things being said about him or implied on twitter. What like mate? I hope it isn't true but a couple have said the same.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 21, 2022 9:14:57 GMT
He did well at Cardiff though didn't he? If so I wonder why they haven't snapped him up? Surely they would be in a stronger position than Luton to do so? They're brassic aren't they?
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jun 21, 2022 9:15:11 GMT
So who's responsible if not the person at the head of recruitment decisions and the set ups used for those players to operate in? The manager is responsible and is always responsible at this club. Sit back and think about it. Realise that any manager employed by these owners is always going to have limitations, always going to be a pragmatic type, always going to be a bit broken in parts. Sit back and recognise that the one we have is probably at the better end of those types of appointments, but also realise that any manager employed by these owners is going to be restricted in parts by the way they run the show. There isn't a manager out there at this level that doesn't make mistakes, doesn't sign a bad player and there certainly isn't a Coates family appointment that doesn't. History proves it. Take a step back and look at them all and the decisions they've made dotted in and around the infrequent good times spanning 10+ years. Unless of course you believe in fairies and that Nathan Jones had a brain transplant when he left Luton to take out his brain and another one to have it re-inserted when he rejoined them, for example, or Rowett really was an excellent talent spotter and wasted 50M+ because he had something inserted into his tea. Take it from someone who sat on here regularly last summer calling for this managers head before slowly looking at things and realising that. I'm not really sure what you're trying to suggest tbh, I agree that the set up probably does need to change, maybe a DOF type set up, but those managers still wasted the money, still brought in players that didn't fit or are you saying someone else is making the decisions re signings because if that's the case I just can't see it, Rowett for example signed players he either worked with in the past or had been linked with at his previous clubs. If I'm being a bit thick, feel free to spell it out for a thicko.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jun 21, 2022 9:17:23 GMT
Some random Charlton fan labelling him an unsavoury term... That's a bit strong to just go throwing about without anything backing it up (not a comment on yourself btw). Another reason to hate Twitter.
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Post by Billy the kid on Jun 21, 2022 9:23:41 GMT
Some random Charlton fan labelling him an unsavoury term... That's a bit strong to just go throwing about without anything backing it up (not a comment on yourself btw). Another reason to hate Twitter. Indeed, it's more than one person saying it though, but without actually providing any proof or reporting it to the correct authorities.
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Post by flea79 on Jun 21, 2022 9:30:53 GMT
Some random Charlton fan labelling him an unsavoury term... That's a bit strong to just go throwing about without anything backing it up (not a comment on yourself btw). Another reason to hate Twitter. i know twitter can be a drumhead trial at best but a fair few are chipping in with similar comments including girls.... could shed some light on the situation, get the next adam johnson away from the club before it goes wrong?
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Post by LGH87 on Jun 21, 2022 9:34:15 GMT
He actually does look the type though too, the day he signed I always thought he doesn't look like a footballer.
Got a creepy, gimpy, nerd vibe about him.
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Post by scfcno1fan on Jun 21, 2022 9:36:45 GMT
Yeah I did see those as well.
No one has come up with any proof mind.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 21, 2022 9:36:59 GMT
I think it would be prudent for any unfounded accusations on Twitter to be removed personally.......
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Jun 21, 2022 9:38:19 GMT
That's a bit strong to just go throwing about without anything backing it up (not a comment on yourself btw). Another reason to hate Twitter. Indeed, it's more than one person saying it though, but without actually providing any proof or reporting it to the correct authorities. Well without any more details there doesn't seem to be anything to report to anyone "calling underage girls fit" I'm not sure there are any correct authorities to report such matters to. I mean how much under age? when is he meant to have said it, he's not much more than a kid himself? Has anyone seen a picture of the damsel, does she indeed look older than her years? Bit weird maybe, ill judged, probably. A paedo, not unless there's a lot more to the story.
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Post by Billy the kid on Jun 21, 2022 9:41:27 GMT
Indeed, it's more than one person saying it though, but without actually providing any proof or reporting it to the correct authorities. Well without any more details there doesn't seem to be anything to report to anyone "calling underage girls fit" I'm not sure there are any correct authorities to report such matters to. I mean how much under age? when is he meant to have said it, he's not much more than a kid himself? Has anyone seen a picture of the damsel, does she indeed look older than her years? Bit weird maybe, ill judged, probably. A paedo, not unless there's a lot more to the story. That is why I have not passed any comment myself personally. You could argue if there was anything untoward then he should have been reported already.
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Post by theonlooker on Jun 21, 2022 9:42:12 GMT
The manager is responsible and is always responsible at this club. Sit back and think about it. Realise that any manager employed by these owners is always going to have limitations, always going to be a pragmatic type, always going to be a bit broken in parts. Sit back and recognise that the one we have is probably at the better end of those types of appointments, but also realise that any manager employed by these owners is going to be restricted in parts by the way they run the show. There isn't a manager out there at this level that doesn't make mistakes, doesn't sign a bad player and there certainly isn't a Coates family appointment that doesn't. History proves it. Take a step back and look at them all and the decisions they've made dotted in and around the infrequent good times spanning 10+ years. Unless of course you believe in fairies and that Nathan Jones had a brain transplant when he left Luton to take out his brain and another one to have it re-inserted when he rejoined them, for example, or Rowett really was an excellent talent spotter and wasted 50M+ because he had something inserted into his tea. Take it from someone who sat on here regularly last summer calling for this managers head before slowly looking at things and realising that. I'm not really sure what you're trying to suggest tbh, I agree that the set up probably does need to change, maybe a DOF type set up, but those managers still wasted the money, still brought in players that didn't fit or are you saying someone else is making the decisions re signings because if that's the case I just can't see it, Rowett for example signed players he either worked with in the past or had been linked with at his previous clubs. If I'm being a bit thick, feel free to spell it out for a thicko. Nobody is making the decisions for the manager, that is clear as day, however there is something clearly wrong at the club that is facilitating stupid decisions made by the managers they employ. Rowett was always a poor choice, even worse when you factor in the money he was given and the free ride to go with it. To a lesser extent, Jones. The point is, Rowett and Jones have done better at clubs with less resources because there is more accountability for what they spend. Some would say it's the lesser expectation but that's too simplistic. At Stoke, it was simply a case of blindly signing cheques and smoking rolled up 50's. At their clubs now, it's more nuanced than that surely where they can ill afford expensive mistakes. Take Jones for example. James Justin and Jack Stacey at Luton. Came to Stoke, Tommy Smith and Stephen Ward...back to Luton, James Bree (already there) and Amari Bell. Stoke a significant outlier, and a much bigger budget to boot. Why did he ever think a player like Stephen Ward was going to work in a diamond at the age he was? Who gave him the option to sign him? Who questioned him? The truth is probably nobody. As supporters, can't we at least sit down and think about that without resorting to the "What are you saying, that players are bought for the manager innit lolz?" Sometimes total control is a curse and not a blessing. Think about that in the context of where and what we are as a club. We seem to be getting worse and not better as we try to correct our mistakes. We've gone from having no real recruitment model, a manager in his office with a Rothmans and 50M burning a hole in his pocket to a recruitment structure designed totally by the manager and filled with his yes men. Sack O'Neill tomorrow and absolutely nothing will change. A different face, a different voice but it will be the same. All cut from the same cloth, put into the same model with a slightly different budget. Same process, rinse repeat. The only hope here is the owners open their eyes to the structure the manager is putting in place, have a damn good look at it and put it into an improvement cycle but I have my doubts. I'll probably be scaling back my posting on here from now on in, because I have little more to add to the debate. I read the same old shit every day and I'm typing the same old shit in return. I just don't see it changing under these owners. I really don't.
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