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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 24, 2021 6:57:54 GMT
What if they haven’t watched the Premier League or show it the same passing attention many here show La Liga, say? My issue was with the post earlier that suggested nobody in Barcelona could have heard of Stoke City before 2008. Football is a game where its legends loom large and stories are passed from fathers to sons etc over years. Matthews also had a big following in Africa. His reach was huge and I don’t think this is a sport that forgets its legends. If they haven't watched the Premier League at all, it's unlikely they'd know of Delap. Though he did edge into popular culture for some who don't know much about football, especially in the UK. And it's frustrating how often football is treated as if it only existed since the Premier League's inception. That leaves most of football club history in England out 99% of the time stats are given in commentary. I bet a far higher percentage of people in Barcelona have heard of Stoke City since 2008 though. Messi was even asked the question about a cold rainy night. Surely those stories are more of your own/family's team rather than opposition? Anyone who saw Puskas against England would've talked about it to their kids, maybe those kids told their kids in passing, but then it gets mostly forgotten. Football as a sport may not forget it's legends, but the general fan (whether in the UK or abroad, and I count myself as a fan who only really cares about Stoke City) is more likely to have that superficial knowledge I mentioned. They've heard of Puskas and may know he was Hungarian. I would hazard a guess that top football magazines like FourFourTwo would include a good spread of footballers (spanning decades and countries) in a list of the greatest of all time, but most lists will include the obvious ones like Pele, Cruyff and Maradona but otherwise be largely made up of players from the 90s and onwards - Modric rather than Matthews. Matthews is in that company of Pele, Cruyff and Maradona though. He was one of the sport's first global icons. And those stories mushroom from there, I think you're underestimating how kids who get into football (or anything really) want to hoover up everything about it and it stays with them. I think you're underplaying what a big deal Stan's legacy is and overstating how much knowledge fans in Spain, which has a well-established football culture of its own, are aware of teams in England outside the big clubs. Could you narrate much about, say, Espanyol from around the same time?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 24, 2021 7:00:09 GMT
But the testimony from Asia is from when Rory was playing and on telly all the time, not from today? Those days are also a long time ago now and I’m not sure why we’d expect a fan in Spain to remember him any more than many here would recall say Marcos Senna or Dani Guiza here? Banks is a World Cup winning goalkeeper, he’s known for more than just a save. I don’t think reputation of historical big names diminishes to the extent that they’re trumped by relative footnotes from the recent past. I think you are massively under-estimating/forgetting the impact Delap’s throws had. For that season or so they were completely sensational, nobody had ever seen anything like it and it was all anybody talked about when Stoke played (or when the big clubs played Stoke). Anyone who was paying attention to the Premier League at that time (hundreds of millions) isn’t going to just forget about it in 10 years. Anyway. Don’t get me out conducting straw polls now 😅😉 I'm not forgetting it at all, it was a brilliant time for Stoke fans. I just think you're enormously overstating its impact on the average fan, particularly overseas. To them, it was a brief curio. It's like comparing, say, The Pigeon Detectives to Beethoven.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2021 7:03:11 GMT
If they haven't watched the Premier League at all, it's unlikely they'd know of Delap. Though he did edge into popular culture for some who don't know much about football, especially in the UK. And it's frustrating how often football is treated as if it only existed since the Premier League's inception. That leaves most of football club history in England out 99% of the time stats are given in commentary. I bet a far higher percentage of people in Barcelona have heard of Stoke City since 2008 though. Messi was even asked the question about a cold rainy night. Surely those stories are more of your own/family's team rather than opposition? Anyone who saw Puskas against England would've talked about it to their kids, maybe those kids told their kids in passing, but then it gets mostly forgotten. Football as a sport may not forget it's legends, but the general fan (whether in the UK or abroad, and I count myself as a fan who only really cares about Stoke City) is more likely to have that superficial knowledge I mentioned. They've heard of Puskas and may know he was Hungarian. I would hazard a guess that top football magazines like FourFourTwo would include a good spread of footballers (spanning decades and countries) in a list of the greatest of all time, but most lists will include the obvious ones like Pele, Cruyff and Maradona but otherwise be largely made up of players from the 90s and onwards - Modric rather than Matthews. Matthews is in that company of Pele, Cruyff and Maradona though. He was one of the sport's first global icons. And those stories mushroom from there, I think you're underestimating how kids who get into football (or anything really) want to hoover up everything about it and it stays with them. I think you're underplaying what a big deal Stan's legacy is and overstating how much knowledge fans in Spain, which has a well-established football culture of its own, are aware of teams in England outside the big clubs. Could you narrate much about, say, Espanyol from around the same time? he simply isn't though. These are players who have shone on the world stage and 3 of the greatest players in the history of the game. Bottom line is, one journalist makes a comment about Stoke. No big deal.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 24, 2021 7:14:33 GMT
Matthews is in that company of Pele, Cruyff and Maradona though. He was one of the sport's first global icons. And those stories mushroom from there, I think you're underestimating how kids who get into football (or anything really) want to hoover up everything about it and it stays with them. I think you're underplaying what a big deal Stan's legacy is and overstating how much knowledge fans in Spain, which has a well-established football culture of its own, are aware of teams in England outside the big clubs. Could you narrate much about, say, Espanyol from around the same time? he simply isn't though. These are players who have shone on the world stage and 3 of the greatest players in the history of the game. Bottom line is, one journalist makes a comment about Stoke. No big deal. I know you're awfully sensitive about anyone claiming English players are any good, but I wasn't saying Matthews was as good as Maradona or Cruyff, I was saying that in terms of being an icon of the game, he's in that conversation.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 24, 2021 7:17:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2021 9:43:35 GMT
he simply isn't though. These are players who have shone on the world stage and 3 of the greatest players in the history of the game. Bottom line is, one journalist makes a comment about Stoke. No big deal. I know you're awfully sensitive about anyone claiming English players are any good, but I wasn't saying Matthews was as good as Maradona or Cruyff, I was saying that in terms of being an icon of the game, he's in that conversation. nonsense Maradona and Pele shone at world cups, are up with the greatest of the great. absolute icons of the game. There are great players of course who never went to major tournaments of course but he simply doesn't belong in that category. Nothing to do with your theory of his nationality. You're comparing a great player who played for Blackpool and Stoke to possibly the two best players of all time. Ridiculous. doesn't come close and not in that conversation at all. Puskas, Best possibly at a push.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Sept 24, 2021 11:12:49 GMT
If they haven't watched the Premier League at all, it's unlikely they'd know of Delap. Though he did edge into popular culture for some who don't know much about football, especially in the UK. And it's frustrating how often football is treated as if it only existed since the Premier League's inception. That leaves most of football club history in England out 99% of the time stats are given in commentary. I bet a far higher percentage of people in Barcelona have heard of Stoke City since 2008 though. Messi was even asked the question about a cold rainy night. Surely those stories are more of your own/family's team rather than opposition? Anyone who saw Puskas against England would've talked about it to their kids, maybe those kids told their kids in passing, but then it gets mostly forgotten. Football as a sport may not forget it's legends, but the general fan (whether in the UK or abroad, and I count myself as a fan who only really cares about Stoke City) is more likely to have that superficial knowledge I mentioned. They've heard of Puskas and may know he was Hungarian. I would hazard a guess that top football magazines like FourFourTwo would include a good spread of footballers (spanning decades and countries) in a list of the greatest of all time, but most lists will include the obvious ones like Pele, Cruyff and Maradona but otherwise be largely made up of players from the 90s and onwards - Modric rather than Matthews. Matthews is in that company of Pele, Cruyff and Maradona though. He was one of the sport's first global icons. And those stories mushroom from there, I think you're underestimating how kids who get into football (or anything really) want to hoover up everything about it and it stays with them. I think you're underplaying what a big deal Stan's legacy is and overstating how much knowledge fans in Spain, which has a well-established football culture of its own, are aware of teams in England outside the big clubs. Could you narrate much about, say, Espanyol from around the same time? I'm not saying Matthews isn't in that company. With my Stoke-blinkered eyes or not, he was a global sports icon and like you say, one of the very first. But he's being forgotten by many in football. Kids who are Stoke or Blackpool fans these days will likely learn of Matthews, but kids who are fans of other clubs - I doubt it. If you ask football fans under the age of 30 (or maybe even 40) who the highest scorer in English top league football is, I bet way more say Shearer than Greaves or are puzzled for an answer. A quick google for 'greatest all time footballers' shows Matthews is in 3 out of 7 lists that are at least 50 players long, and funnily enough Modric is in a couple that Matthews isn't (I think some data is from the same source). In a top 100, Matthews was 72. Modric is one of the best footballers of the 2000s, but top 50 of all time? Should he even make a top 100? It's subjective, but surely Matthews shouldn't be missing from any top 50 list? As the decades go on, the best players from previous decades are as a whole, gradually being forgotten. Certain players who were at the very top, like Banks and Pele, will probably always be remembered and partly because there's good footage of them doing iconic things - that Banks save from Pele, for example. And Banks would be in the conversation much less if it wasn't for that save. It's that one moment that helps keep him in the conversation. Again, I'm not saying he isn't one of the greatest players ever, just saying that one iconic and oft-replayed moment helps people remember him. Here's one of the music surveys I mentioned if you're interested. Results show how much music is being forgotten. Unfortunately it doesn't seem possible to see the results without answering 10 clips, but I found it fun anyway and did it for each decade: pudding.cool/2020/04/music-challenge/On a related note, I hope Ricardo Fuller was a favourite player of non-Stoke fan kids during our time in the Premier League. As a kid, I loved players like Kinkladze, le Tissier, Yeboah and Wanchope. So I think less famous players can be remembered by a certain generation if they stood out at the time.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 24, 2021 12:09:56 GMT
I know you're awfully sensitive about anyone claiming English players are any good, but I wasn't saying Matthews was as good as Maradona or Cruyff, I was saying that in terms of being an icon of the game, he's in that conversation. nonsense Maradona and Pele shone at world cups, are up with the greatest of the great. absolute icons of the game. There are great players of course who never went to major tournaments of course but he simply doesn't belong in that category. Nothing to do with your theory of his nationality. You're comparing a great player who played for Blackpool and Stoke to possibly the two best players of all time. Ridiculous. doesn't come close and not in that conversation at all. Puskas, Best possibly at a push. Yeah, as stated, I'm not saying he was as good as them, just that he's an icon of the game - he was one of its first genuine global superstars. If you want to say Puskas and Best instead I'm happy to go with that. You are hyper sensitive about England bigging up their own players or what you perceive as that. It's a good gimmick, I enjoyed you during the Euros straining to present yourself as the voice of reason when it was clearly eating you alive that there was a danger of us winning it.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 24, 2021 12:12:52 GMT
Matthews is in that company of Pele, Cruyff and Maradona though. He was one of the sport's first global icons. And those stories mushroom from there, I think you're underestimating how kids who get into football (or anything really) want to hoover up everything about it and it stays with them. I think you're underplaying what a big deal Stan's legacy is and overstating how much knowledge fans in Spain, which has a well-established football culture of its own, are aware of teams in England outside the big clubs. Could you narrate much about, say, Espanyol from around the same time? I'm not saying Matthews isn't in that company. With my Stoke-blinkered eyes or not, he was a global sports icon and like you say, one of the very first. But he's being forgotten by many in football. Kids who are Stoke or Blackpool fans these days will likely learn of Matthews, but kids who are fans of other clubs - I doubt it. If you ask football fans under the age of 30 (or maybe even 40) who the highest scorer in English top league football is, I bet way more say Shearer than Greaves or are puzzled for an answer. A quick google for 'greatest all time footballers' shows Matthews is in 3 out of 7 lists that are at least 50 players long, and funnily enough Modric is in a couple that Matthews isn't (I think some data is from the same source). In a top 100, Matthews was 72. Modric is one of the best footballers of the 2000s, but top 50 of all time? Should he even make a top 100? It's subjective, but surely Matthews shouldn't be missing from any top 50 list? As the decades go on, the best players from previous decades are as a whole, gradually being forgotten. Certain players who were at the very top, like Banks and Pele, will probably always be remembered and partly because there's good footage of them doing iconic things - that Banks save from Pele, for example. And Banks would be in the conversation much less if it wasn't for that save. It's that one moment that helps keep him in the conversation. Again, I'm not saying he isn't one of the greatest players ever, just saying that one iconic and oft-replayed moment helps people remember him. Here's one of the music surveys I mentioned if you're interested. Results show how much music is being forgotten. Unfortunately it doesn't seem possible to see the results without answering 10 clips, but I found it fun anyway and did it for each decade: pudding.cool/2020/04/music-challenge/On a related note, I hope Ricardo Fuller was a favourite player of non-Stoke fan kids during our time in the Premier League. As a kid, I loved players like Kinkladze, le Tissier, Yeboah and Wanchope. So I think less famous players can be remembered by a certain generation if they stood out at the time. In terms of the comparison with Delap though, I'm lost still on how something that happened pushing 15 years ago now for an unfashionable club in another country is likely to be more memorable than something or someone world famous a longer time ago. I also don't subscribe to the idea that people aren't interested in stuff that happened before they were born. We seem to have narrowed it now to 'kids' who are only part of that make-up, aren't they?
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Post by thevoid on Sept 24, 2021 12:19:42 GMT
I know you're awfully sensitive about anyone claiming English players are any good, but I wasn't saying Matthews was as good as Maradona or Cruyff, I was saying that in terms of being an icon of the game, he's in that conversation. nonsense Maradona and Pele shone at world cups, are up with the greatest of the great. absolute icons of the game. There are great players of course who never went to major tournaments of course but he simply doesn't belong in that category. Nothing to do with your theory of his nationality. You're comparing a great player who played for Blackpool and Stoke to possibly the two best players of all time. Ridiculous. doesn't come close and not in that conversation at all. Puskas, Best possibly at a push. You played for Real Madrid once, didn't you mate? Didn't you bump into Figo in the stadium toilets when he had the shits and he gave you his shirt against Rayo Vallecano?
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Sept 24, 2021 13:25:02 GMT
I'm not saying Matthews isn't in that company. With my Stoke-blinkered eyes or not, he was a global sports icon and like you say, one of the very first. But he's being forgotten by many in football. Kids who are Stoke or Blackpool fans these days will likely learn of Matthews, but kids who are fans of other clubs - I doubt it. If you ask football fans under the age of 30 (or maybe even 40) who the highest scorer in English top league football is, I bet way more say Shearer than Greaves or are puzzled for an answer. A quick google for 'greatest all time footballers' shows Matthews is in 3 out of 7 lists that are at least 50 players long, and funnily enough Modric is in a couple that Matthews isn't (I think some data is from the same source). In a top 100, Matthews was 72. Modric is one of the best footballers of the 2000s, but top 50 of all time? Should he even make a top 100? It's subjective, but surely Matthews shouldn't be missing from any top 50 list? As the decades go on, the best players from previous decades are as a whole, gradually being forgotten. Certain players who were at the very top, like Banks and Pele, will probably always be remembered and partly because there's good footage of them doing iconic things - that Banks save from Pele, for example. And Banks would be in the conversation much less if it wasn't for that save. It's that one moment that helps keep him in the conversation. Again, I'm not saying he isn't one of the greatest players ever, just saying that one iconic and oft-replayed moment helps people remember him. Here's one of the music surveys I mentioned if you're interested. Results show how much music is being forgotten. Unfortunately it doesn't seem possible to see the results without answering 10 clips, but I found it fun anyway and did it for each decade: pudding.cool/2020/04/music-challenge/On a related note, I hope Ricardo Fuller was a favourite player of non-Stoke fan kids during our time in the Premier League. As a kid, I loved players like Kinkladze, le Tissier, Yeboah and Wanchope. So I think less famous players can be remembered by a certain generation if they stood out at the time. In terms of the comparison with Delap though, I'm lost still on how something that happened pushing 15 years ago now for an unfashionable club in another country is likely to be more memorable than something or someone world famous a longer time ago. I also don't subscribe to the idea that people aren't interested in stuff that happened before they were born. We seem to have narrowed it now to 'kids' who are only part of that make-up, aren't they? Because the likes of those throw-ins had never been seen before. The hysteria was ridiculous. Wenger wanting to ban throw-ins, players kicking the ball out for corners instead of throw-ins, moving advertising hoardings closer to the pitch etc. That uniqueness keeps it more memorable. It's still written about on a regular basis and more than much more famous players are: www.planetfootball.com/nostalgia/remembering-rory-delap-throws-and-a-briefly-lovable-stoke-side/Again, I'm not saying people are not interested in stuff from before they were born. Just that a lot of very famous people/things of their time are being forgotten. I think some of the links I've shared prove that, and that because of the notoriety, Delap or at the very least his throw-ins and the team that did them, will remain in more memories for a longer time than something or someone world-famous a longer time ago. There are so many things I could compare it to in terms of the notoriety. Who is the most famous ski jumper in the UK, for example? Something notorious or different does wonders for making it/them memorable. Edit: And a Twitter search for 'delap throw' brings up regular mentions from non-Stoke fans. It'll be around for ever.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 24, 2021 13:35:39 GMT
In terms of the comparison with Delap though, I'm lost still on how something that happened pushing 15 years ago now for an unfashionable club in another country is likely to be more memorable than something or someone world famous a longer time ago. I also don't subscribe to the idea that people aren't interested in stuff that happened before they were born. We seem to have narrowed it now to 'kids' who are only part of that make-up, aren't they? Because the likes of those throw-ins had never been seen before. The hysteria was ridiculous. Wenger wanting to ban throw-ins, players kicking the ball out for corners instead of throw-ins, moving advertising hoardings closer to the pitch etc. That uniqueness keeps it more memorable. It's still written about on a regular basis and more than much more famous players are: www.planetfootball.com/nostalgia/remembering-rory-delap-throws-and-a-briefly-lovable-stoke-side/Again, I'm not saying people are not interested in stuff from before they were born. Just that a lot of very famous people/things of their time are being forgotten. I think some of the links I've shared prove that, and that because of the notoriety, Delap or at the very least his throw-ins and the team that did them, will remain in more memories for a longer time than something or someone world-famous a longer time ago. There are so many things I could compare it to in terms of the notoriety. Who is the most famous ski jumper in the UK, for example? Something notorious or different does wonders for making it/them memorable. Edit: And a Twitter search for 'delap throw' brings up regular mentions. It'll be around for ever. That's in this country though. I don't think it made the kind of lasting ripple elsewhere that seems to be being suggested. Yes in countries where they obsess over the Premier League like the Far East at an absolute push but even there, things move very quickly and it was a brief development at an unfashionable club nearly 15 years ago. In countries with their own well established football traditions I don't think it's anything like the same.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Sept 24, 2021 15:51:28 GMT
Because the likes of those throw-ins had never been seen before. The hysteria was ridiculous. Wenger wanting to ban throw-ins, players kicking the ball out for corners instead of throw-ins, moving advertising hoardings closer to the pitch etc. That uniqueness keeps it more memorable. It's still written about on a regular basis and more than much more famous players are: www.planetfootball.com/nostalgia/remembering-rory-delap-throws-and-a-briefly-lovable-stoke-side/Again, I'm not saying people are not interested in stuff from before they were born. Just that a lot of very famous people/things of their time are being forgotten. I think some of the links I've shared prove that, and that because of the notoriety, Delap or at the very least his throw-ins and the team that did them, will remain in more memories for a longer time than something or someone world-famous a longer time ago. There are so many things I could compare it to in terms of the notoriety. Who is the most famous ski jumper in the UK, for example? Something notorious or different does wonders for making it/them memorable. Edit: And a Twitter search for 'delap throw' brings up regular mentions. It'll be around for ever. That's in this country though. I don't think it made the kind of lasting ripple elsewhere that seems to be being suggested. Yes in countries where they obsess over the Premier League like the Far East at an absolute push but even there, things move very quickly and it was a brief development at an unfashionable club nearly 15 years ago. In countries with their own well established football traditions I don't think it's anything like the same. Maybe not anything like the same, but I stand by Delap being remembered for longer than more famous players around at the same time and more famous players from the past, whether in the Premier or other top European leagues. Looking at the Premier League captains for that first season, there are only four I'd say are more memorable in the wider world than Delap: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%9309_Premier_League#Personnel_and_kitsI will agree to disagree.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Sept 24, 2021 15:53:26 GMT
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