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Post by wuzza on Sept 22, 2021 21:09:33 GMT
I really hope you are right but I’m a bit cynical - especially with the generational impact. I’m getting on but I know the names of very few pre WW ll players - even for Stoke - so I imagine for anyone under 50 knowledge of famous players in the 50s is very limited. I don’t subscribe to the idea that people don’t have any knowledge of anything that happened before they were born - maybe that’s just the historian part of me talking. Purely from a Barca perspective I’d wager they’d know Stoke City as much for Bojan and Afellay from anyone in recent times as anyone else. Having watched many quiz shows where people can’t tell you what happened in 1066 I’m a bit dubious about the general public’s respect for history 🙂 |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 22, 2021 21:13:42 GMT
I don’t subscribe to the idea that people don’t have any knowledge of anything that happened before they were born - maybe that’s just the historian part of me talking. Purely from a Barca perspective I’d wager they’d know Stoke City as much for Bojan and Afellay from anyone in recent times as anyone else. Having watched many quiz shows where people can’t tell you what happened in 1066 I’m a bit dubious about the general public’s respect for history 🙂 I think generally though if you’re invested in something and become a lifelong fan of something - as I think most football fans do - you tend to pick up a lot of that knowledge about its history. I don’t think the fact Rory Delap had a brief spell of notoriety with his long throw is more likely to register particularly these days with fans in other countries . |
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Post by wuzza on Sept 22, 2021 21:22:38 GMT
Having watched many quiz shows where people can’t tell you what happened in 1066 I’m a bit dubious about the general public’s respect for history 🙂 I think generally though if you’re invested in something and become a lifelong fan of something - as I think most football fans do - you tend to pick up a lot of that knowledge about its history. I don’t think the fact Rory Delap had a brief spell of notoriety with his long throw is more likely to register particularly these days with fans in other countries . Again I’m going to sound terribly dated and cynical but I fear that if it ain’t on YouTube or Instagram or whatever most current fans knowledge would be limited at best. I think the best you could probably hope for is Stanley Mathews of England. I would love to be wrong. I wonder if you asked a youngster (or even not so youngster) which club Pele played for would you get an answer ? |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 22, 2021 22:11:00 GMT
I think generally though if you’re invested in something and become a lifelong fan of something - as I think most football fans do - you tend to pick up a lot of that knowledge about its history. I don’t think the fact Rory Delap had a brief spell of notoriety with his long throw is more likely to register particularly these days with fans in other countries . Again I’m going to sound terribly dated and cynical but I fear that if it ain’t on YouTube or Instagram or whatever most current fans knowledge would be limited at best. I think the best you could probably hope for is Stanley Mathews of England. I would love to be wrong. I wonder if you asked a youngster (or even not so youngster) which club Pele played for would you get an answer ? I guess it depends how young we’re talking doesn’t it and how into football they are. If we’re talking a Barcelona fan cognisant of Stoke City then I reckon there’d be a decent chance, but especially given the fairly recent doc on the New York Cosmos. |
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Post by metalhead on Sept 22, 2021 22:13:25 GMT
There's some utter shite posted on this forum. Tony Pulis remains a club legend, regardless of the way it panned out at the end and the bitter afters.
A true professional, a man who gave everything for this club and who ultimately ran out of time/steam like many great managers do at their respective clubs.
The way we treat Pulis stinks of the way Arse fans continue to treat Wenger (even if he was a wanker).
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Post by Gods on Sept 22, 2021 22:15:31 GMT
This is still the finest tribute to the astonishing Tony Pulis years I ever read and I never miss the chance to share it! A tribute to the great man |
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Sept 22, 2021 23:39:37 GMT
I think generally though if you’re invested in something and become a lifelong fan of something - as I think most football fans do - you tend to pick up a lot of that knowledge about its history. I don’t think the fact Rory Delap had a brief spell of notoriety with his long throw is more likely to register particularly these days with fans in other countries . Again I’m going to sound terribly dated and cynical but I fear that if it ain’t on YouTube or Instagram or whatever most current fans knowledge would be limited at best. I think the best you could probably hope for is Stanley Mathews of England. I would love to be wrong. I wonder if you asked a youngster (or even not so youngster) which club Pele played for would you get an answer ? I agree and think most people probably don't pick up much of a deep knowledge and many who call themselves big fans might only have a superficial knowledge of the history. I used to be a big Formula 1 fan in the 90s and up until about 2010. I knew the names from history, who had won World Championships, who had come close and who were considered the greatest of all time. But I didn't really have any historical knowledge outside of that - it was really superficial knowledge. I've started regularly watching F1 highlights again since full races moved to Sky, and for some reason in the past year, I've gone off on motorsport tangents and watched old footage and read about drivers of the 50s and 60s in particular. I wouldn't have said Jim Clark was the greatest F1 driver a year ago, but now I think he might be. And then I see garbage lists like this on a so-called motorsport website that are 90% post-1990: www.motorsportweek.com/2021/06/08/the-greatest-formula-1-drivers-of-all-time/ (though there's always the chance they're garbage on purpose to generate comments and shares). Too many people (youngsters especially) also believe the snippets that show in Google and often won't look any further, and the stuff Google ranks is often crap. Check this out:  What's the meaning of "Stoke City F.C. / good"?  You can give feedback though:  Maybe worst of all from these examples, what happened to 1972?  If I bring it back to me and football, I don't really know much about Stoke City in the early 90s despite becoming a fan at that time. I loved the success especially and have some fond memories. I could name most of the early-90s squad simply because I inputted their names into a football manager game and won the World Soccer League on a regular basis! I think you have to be a real anorak (not in the 'boring' sense) to have knowledge outside of the big names, and a bit of notoriety (such as Delap and his throw) or a famous player keeps the less famous clubs in memory (whether UK or overseas) for longer. When I think of Bolton Wanderers, for example, I think of Jay Jay Okocha. Stoke will be Crouch and Delap to many non-Stoke fans but also Shawcross or Bojan for others. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2021 0:33:21 GMT
Again I’m going to sound terribly dated and cynical but I fear that if it ain’t on YouTube or Instagram or whatever most current fans knowledge would be limited at best. I think the best you could probably hope for is Stanley Mathews of England. I would love to be wrong. I wonder if you asked a youngster (or even not so youngster) which club Pele played for would you get an answer ? I agree and think most people probably don't pick up much of a deep knowledge and many who call themselves big fans might only have a superficial knowledge of the history. I used to be a big Formula 1 fan in the 90s and up until about 2010. I knew the names from history, who had won World Championships, who had come close and who were considered the greatest of all time. But I didn't really have any historical knowledge outside of that - it was really superficial knowledge. I've started regularly watching F1 highlights again since full races moved to Sky, and for some reason in the past year, I've gone off on motorsport tangents and watched old footage and read about drivers of the 50s and 60s in particular. I wouldn't have said Jim Clark was the greatest F1 driver a year ago, but now I think he might be. And then I see garbage lists like this on a so-called motorsport website that are 90% post-1990: www.motorsportweek.com/2021/06/08/the-greatest-formula-1-drivers-of-all-time/ (though there's always the chance they're garbage on purpose to generate comments and shares). Too many people (youngsters especially) also believe the snippets that show in Google and often won't look any further, and the stuff Google ranks is often crap. Check this out: What's the meaning of "Stoke City F.C. / good"? You can give feedback though: Maybe worst of all from these examples, what happened to 1972? If I bring it back to me and football, I don't really know much about Stoke City in the early 90s despite becoming a fan at that time. I loved the success especially and have some fond memories. I could name most of the early-90s squad simply because I inputted their names into a football manager game and won the World Soccer League on a regular basis! I think you have to be a real anorak (not in the 'boring' sense) to have knowledge outside of the big names, and a bit of notoriety (such as Delap and his throw) or a famous player keeps the less famous clubs in memory (whether UK or overseas) for longer. When I think of Bolton Wanderers, for example, I think of Jay Jay Okocha. Stoke will be Crouch and Delap to many non-Stoke fans but also Shawcross or Bojan for others. Jay Jay, so good they named him twice. I loved him. In truth that Bolton teams was one of my favourite of the 2000s, with Jussi, Nolan and Kevin Davies as well. |
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 23, 2021 0:48:39 GMT
I agree and think most people probably don't pick up much of a deep knowledge and many who call themselves big fans might only have a superficial knowledge of the history. I used to be a big Formula 1 fan in the 90s and up until about 2010. I knew the names from history, who had won World Championships, who had come close and who were considered the greatest of all time. But I didn't really have any historical knowledge outside of that - it was really superficial knowledge. I've started regularly watching F1 highlights again since full races moved to Sky, and for some reason in the past year, I've gone off on motorsport tangents and watched old footage and read about drivers of the 50s and 60s in particular. I wouldn't have said Jim Clark was the greatest F1 driver a year ago, but now I think he might be. And then I see garbage lists like this on a so-called motorsport website that are 90% post-1990: www.motorsportweek.com/2021/06/08/the-greatest-formula-1-drivers-of-all-time/ (though there's always the chance they're garbage on purpose to generate comments and shares). Too many people (youngsters especially) also believe the snippets that show in Google and often won't look any further, and the stuff Google ranks is often crap. Check this out: What's the meaning of "Stoke City F.C. / good"? You can give feedback though: Maybe worst of all from these examples, what happened to 1972? If I bring it back to me and football, I don't really know much about Stoke City in the early 90s despite becoming a fan at that time. I loved the success especially and have some fond memories. I could name most of the early-90s squad simply because I inputted their names into a football manager game and won the World Soccer League on a regular basis! I think you have to be a real anorak (not in the 'boring' sense) to have knowledge outside of the big names, and a bit of notoriety (such as Delap and his throw) or a famous player keeps the less famous clubs in memory (whether UK or overseas) for longer. When I think of Bolton Wanderers, for example, I think of Jay Jay Okocha. Stoke will be Crouch and Delap to many non-Stoke fans but also Shawcross or Bojan for others. Jay Jay, so good they named him twice. I loved him. In truth that Bolton teams was one of my favourite of the 2000s, with Jussi, Nolan and Kevin Davies as well. I loved them even more in 2011 |
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 23, 2021 0:50:56 GMT
Too many people (youngsters especially) also believe the snippets that show in Google and often won't look any further, and the stuff Google ranks is often crap. Check this out: What's the meaning of "Stoke City F.C. / good"? . It’s not the worst effort tbh 😉 |
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Post by davethebass on Sept 23, 2021 4:21:21 GMT
I think generally though if you’re invested in something and become a lifelong fan of something - as I think most football fans do - you tend to pick up a lot of that knowledge about its history. I don’t think the fact Rory Delap had a brief spell of notoriety with his long throw is more likely to register particularly these days with fans in other countries . Again I’m going to sound terribly dated and cynical but I fear that if it ain’t on YouTube or Instagram or whatever most current fans knowledge would be limited at best. I think the best you could probably hope for is Stanley Mathews of England. I would love to be wrong. I wonder if you asked a youngster (or even not so youngster) which club Pele played for would you get an answer ? Santos And they played us at the Vic. I just googled the match and top of the search results was this.... oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/38315 |
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hotpot
Youth Player
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Post by hotpot on Sept 23, 2021 4:23:34 GMT
We ain't primitive enough. We can't seem to attract some quality Spanish players.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 23, 2021 5:13:18 GMT
Again I’m going to sound terribly dated and cynical but I fear that if it ain’t on YouTube or Instagram or whatever most current fans knowledge would be limited at best. I think the best you could probably hope for is Stanley Mathews of England. I would love to be wrong. I wonder if you asked a youngster (or even not so youngster) which club Pele played for would you get an answer ? I agree and think most people probably don't pick up much of a deep knowledge and many who call themselves big fans might only have a superficial knowledge of the history. I used to be a big Formula 1 fan in the 90s and up until about 2010. I knew the names from history, who had won World Championships, who had come close and who were considered the greatest of all time. But I didn't really have any historical knowledge outside of that - it was really superficial knowledge. I've started regularly watching F1 highlights again since full races moved to Sky, and for some reason in the past year, I've gone off on motorsport tangents and watched old footage and read about drivers of the 50s and 60s in particular. I wouldn't have said Jim Clark was the greatest F1 driver a year ago, but now I think he might be. And then I see garbage lists like this on a so-called motorsport website that are 90% post-1990: www.motorsportweek.com/2021/06/08/the-greatest-formula-1-drivers-of-all-time/ (though there's always the chance they're garbage on purpose to generate comments and shares). Too many people (youngsters especially) also believe the snippets that show in Google and often won't look any further, and the stuff Google ranks is often crap. Check this out: What's the meaning of "Stoke City F.C. / good"? You can give feedback though: Maybe worst of all from these examples, what happened to 1972? If I bring it back to me and football, I don't really know much about Stoke City in the early 90s despite becoming a fan at that time. I loved the success especially and have some fond memories. I could name most of the early-90s squad simply because I inputted their names into a football manager game and won the World Soccer League on a regular basis! I think you have to be a real anorak (not in the 'boring' sense) to have knowledge outside of the big names, and a bit of notoriety (such as Delap and his throw) or a famous player keeps the less famous clubs in memory (whether UK or overseas) for longer. When I think of Bolton Wanderers, for example, I think of Jay Jay Okocha. Stoke will be Crouch and Delap to many non-Stoke fans but also Shawcross or Bojan for others. You’ve heard of Nat Lofthouse though, surely? I think if you’re a football fan in another country you’re more of an ‘anorak’ if you can remember Rory Delap having a long throw for a mid-table English club than for remembering one of the most famous footballers in history. It’s essentially the equivalent of being aware of the Ting Tings but not Frank Sinatra. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 23, 2021 6:06:39 GMT
I agree with the first part of the sentence. Giving him the credit for the Hughes era is a bit much. I’m not so sure. Hughes built on the solid core that Pulis assembled. I’m strongly of the opinion that Hughes’ downfall occurred when that core started to disintegrate and needed reassembling. That’s not to take away from Hughes or to be overly reverent to Pulis. The latter end of Pulis’ 2nd tenure was painful and we flirted with relegation, and Hughes’ arrival reinvigorated us and made us dream. Pulis is like a builder and Hughes is like a decorator. The builder will erect a house, it’ll be sturdy but it’ll be plain and barren without the artist’s touch. The decorator will add beauty to the sturdy house but has no idea how to build one from scratch. We were relegation contenders in TP’s last season. This solid foundation stuff is half right but Hughes also inherited a squad that were lucky not to have been relegated the season before. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 23, 2021 6:07:05 GMT
They needed reinvigorating though and under a lesser manager could/would have wilted after Pulis was rightly moved on. I'm not sure we were strong in the first half of that season. We had our moments and results were good but performances were iffy and the fall was on the horizon - the problems that plagued the back end of the previous season were never fixed and we hardly ever came close to looking like the team playing the brilliant football we did en route to the cup final. It took Crouch getting injured in that last season for us to put a run of form together, yet as soon as the manager's favourites were fit they were back in the team and we were back to the sludge. I think we agree generally, I just think reinvigorating that side and taking it higher than it had been before is a trickier task than some are making out. I should make myself clear. I’m not looking to denigrate what Hughes achieved here. I think he’s a fantastic niche manager - I’m just sceptical that he has the ability to rebuild teams. He had the perfect foundations here to fully express the best aspects of his managerial skills and he delivered with flying colours (for a period). The club played the best football we’ve played since the 70s under Hughes. I know the pre FA Cup final period under Pulis was amazing, but it was a totally different style of exciting football and a total outlier when judged against his entire 2nd spell here. Pulis definitely wasn’t capable of doing what Hughes did though, which was a total stylistic transformation and getting the team to play a much more progressive style as a standard rather than an outlier. I’m struggling to explain myself as eloquently as I’d like…the thoughts are bubbling but I’m struggling to form them fully. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t think you can fully disregard Pulis’ legacy when you talk about the Hughes era - they are intrinsically linked. But I also don’t think acknowledging that takes anything away from what Hughes did. I don’t see it as a counter-balance. He rebuilt us 🤷♂️ |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Sept 23, 2021 7:21:44 GMT
Sometimes in a league as tough as the Premiership hard work and discipline isn't enough. But there is no doubt whatsoever that the work ethic of Pulis' team was way superior to Hughes team. Not even a debate. And it was the lack of discipline and hard work that partly resulted in the total mess Hughes left behind. The rest was down to absolutely appalling transfer business, which I know you yourself say was Hughes fault as manager. I just think TS had a much bigger role in that shyte transfer business than some are prepared to accept. And anyway I am not trying to say it was wrong to get rid of Pulis. I think he had run out of ideas. And I am not denying Hughes the credit he deserves for the good 3 years he had. There wasn’t a lot of discipline when they were chucking pigs’ heads about and bricks through each other’s windows, that’s my point. Things had come to an end and the squad needed new life breathing into it. It isn’t easy for a manager to come in and do that. What evidence is there to suggest Scholes had a say in who we signed? Is this not just your self-confessed hatred of him coming into play?Yeah probably |
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Post by somersetstokie on Sept 23, 2021 13:32:56 GMT
StokieMatt:"Jay Jay, so good they named him twice. I loved him. In truth that Bolton teams was one of my favourite of the 2000s, with Jussi, Nolan and Kevin Davies as well.
I don't know about young people's memory or knowledge, but I have to say that I still get confused about who was who amongst a number of former Strikers, including Kevin Phillips, Kevin Davies and Kevin Nolan, and probably a few other Kevins as well!
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Post by lordb on Sept 23, 2021 15:40:37 GMT
I’m not so sure. Hughes built on the solid core that Pulis assembled. I’m strongly of the opinion that Hughes’ downfall occurred when that core started to disintegrate and needed reassembling. That’s not to take away from Hughes or to be overly reverent to Pulis. The latter end of Pulis’ 2nd tenure was painful and we flirted with relegation, and Hughes’ arrival reinvigorated us and made us dream. Pulis is like a builder and Hughes is like a decorator. The builder will erect a house, it’ll be sturdy but it’ll be plain and barren without the artist’s touch. The decorator will add beauty to the sturdy house but has no idea how to build one from scratch. We were relegation contenders in TP’s last season. This solid foundation stuff is half right but Hughes also inherited a squad that were lucky not to have been relegated the season before. TP last season was pretty/very miserable but 'lucky not to have been relegated' is simply nonsense, how much time did we spend in the bottom three? I think it's reasonable to speculate that had TP not been sacked the following season could have been horrific |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 23, 2021 16:22:35 GMT
We were relegation contenders in TP’s last season. This solid foundation stuff is half right but Hughes also inherited a squad that were lucky not to have been relegated the season before. TP last season was pretty/very miserable but 'lucky not to have been relegated' is simply nonsense, how much time did we spend in the bottom three? I think it's reasonable to speculate that had TP not been sacked the following season could have been horrific I think we were. He got lucky like he usually did and we scraped to safety. It was very much like Hughes’ 4th season where all the signs were there that it was done. The board realised that it was luck not judgement that stopped the inevitable with TP. Sadly that foresight (and ability to asses what had gone) wasn’t there with Hughes. |
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 23, 2021 20:56:35 GMT
I think if you’re a football fan in another country you’re more of an ‘anorak’ if you can remember Rory Delap having a long throw for a mid-table English club than for remembering one of the most famous footballers in history. It’s essentially the equivalent of being aware of the Ting Tings but not Frank Sinatra. If I had to bet, I'd say for every one (youngish) overseas football fan who'd heard of Stanley Matthews there would be at least 30 who'd heard of Delap. I wouldn't be surprised if it was 50 or 100. Just the nature of blanket Premier League coverage, he was incredibly famous ten years ago and most people who pay any attention to the PL (hundreds of millions) will remember that. As legendary as we know the likes of Stan, Tom Finney etc were, they're pretty obscure historical figures in the wider world. Many more people would be aware of Banks, for example. |
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Sept 23, 2021 21:04:02 GMT
I agree and think most people probably don't pick up much of a deep knowledge and many who call themselves big fans might only have a superficial knowledge of the history. I used to be a big Formula 1 fan in the 90s and up until about 2010. I knew the names from history, who had won World Championships, who had come close and who were considered the greatest of all time. But I didn't really have any historical knowledge outside of that - it was really superficial knowledge. I've started regularly watching F1 highlights again since full races moved to Sky, and for some reason in the past year, I've gone off on motorsport tangents and watched old footage and read about drivers of the 50s and 60s in particular. I wouldn't have said Jim Clark was the greatest F1 driver a year ago, but now I think he might be. And then I see garbage lists like this on a so-called motorsport website that are 90% post-1990: www.motorsportweek.com/2021/06/08/the-greatest-formula-1-drivers-of-all-time/ (though there's always the chance they're garbage on purpose to generate comments and shares). Too many people (youngsters especially) also believe the snippets that show in Google and often won't look any further, and the stuff Google ranks is often crap. Check this out: What's the meaning of "Stoke City F.C. / good"?  You can give feedback though: Maybe worst of all from these examples, what happened to 1972? If I bring it back to me and football, I don't really know much about Stoke City in the early 90s despite becoming a fan at that time. I loved the success especially and have some fond memories. I could name most of the early-90s squad simply because I inputted their names into a football manager game and won the World Soccer League on a regular basis! I think you have to be a real anorak (not in the 'boring' sense) to have knowledge outside of the big names, and a bit of notoriety (such as Delap and his throw) or a famous player keeps the less famous clubs in memory (whether UK or overseas) for longer. When I think of Bolton Wanderers, for example, I think of Jay Jay Okocha. Stoke will be Crouch and Delap to many non-Stoke fans but also Shawcross or Bojan for others. You’ve heard of Nat Lofthouse though, surely? I think if you’re a football fan in another country you’re more of an ‘anorak’ if you can remember Rory Delap having a long throw for a mid-table English club than for remembering one of the most famous footballers in history. It’s essentially the equivalent of being aware of the Ting Tings but not Frank Sinatra. I'd forgotten he played for Bolton, but now you mention him, it comes back. I think Rory Delap will be remembered more than many footballers who would be much more famous than him if it wasn't for the throw-in. I saw him alongside 2 or 3 other players (I can't remember who exactly) I consider much more famous on a massive billboard advertising the Premier League in South East Asia. Any Asian person I spoke to in Asia who knew little English, it was either Delap or Crouch they mentioned when I mentioned Stoke City. Granted, that was only from a sample of four people. Delap's got that notoriety that makes him memorable. Like Taki Inoue in F1. I doubt I could name a single non-British F1 backmarker, but I remember Inoue because he got hit by a safety car twice. It's always worth a look...  Most people will probably remember the song "That's Not My Name" but not be aware who its by, whereas I'd guess many of those same people will have heard of Frank Sinatra but not know what songs are his unless they're reminded. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 23, 2021 21:11:17 GMT
I think if you’re a football fan in another country you’re more of an ‘anorak’ if you can remember Rory Delap having a long throw for a mid-table English club than for remembering one of the most famous footballers in history. It’s essentially the equivalent of being aware of the Ting Tings but not Frank Sinatra. If I had to bet, I'd say for every one (youngish) overseas football fan who'd heard of Stanley Matthews there would be at least 30 who'd heard of Delap. I wouldn't be surprised if it was 50 or 100. Just the nature of blanket Premier League coverage, he was incredibly famous ten years ago and most people who pay any attention to the PL (hundreds of millions) will remember that. As legendary as we know the likes of Stan, Tom Finney etc were, they're pretty obscure historical figures in the wider world. Many more people would be aware of Banks, for example. I don’t agree with either of those things. Rory was briefly famous for a short time over 10 years ago for a mid table top flight club. I think you’re grossly overstating things to suggest that is well remembered overseas, especially in countries with a strong football tradition of their own. 10 years is a long time for something that didn’t, to outsiders, last particularly long. Matthews and Banks were globally revered footballers. Banks is perennially in the conversation as the best goalkeeper ever. Matthews again had a reputation that helped spawn the Balon D’Or. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 23, 2021 21:15:26 GMT
You’ve heard of Nat Lofthouse though, surely? I think if you’re a football fan in another country you’re more of an ‘anorak’ if you can remember Rory Delap having a long throw for a mid-table English club than for remembering one of the most famous footballers in history. It’s essentially the equivalent of being aware of the Ting Tings but not Frank Sinatra. I'd forgotten he played for Bolton, but now you mention him, it comes back. I think Rory Delap will be remembered more than many footballers who would be much more famous than him if it wasn't for the throw-in. I saw him alongside 2 or 3 other players (I can't remember who exactly) I consider much more famous on a massive billboard advertising the Premier League in South East Asia. Any Asian person I spoke to in Asia who knew little English, it was either Delap or Crouch they mentioned when I mentioned Stoke City. Granted, that was only from a sample of four people. Delap's got that notoriety that makes him memorable. Like Taki Inoue in F1. I doubt I could name a single non-British F1 backmarker, but I remember Inoue because he got hit by a safety car twice. It's always worth a look... Most people will probably remember the song "That's Not My Name" but not be aware who its by, whereas I'd guess many of those same people will have heard of Frank Sinatra but not know what songs are his unless they're reminded. Come on, everyone’s going to know My Way. Great Inoue reference, always good to see! Rory was on a billboard at the time, my point is that doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll be remembered today. To non-Stokies it was a brief thing that doesn’t necessarily resonate - in England he’s shorthand for a long throw still. I’m not convinced someone weaned on Ronaldinho and Iniesta will necessarily still be able to picture him. |
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 23, 2021 21:43:36 GMT
If I had to bet, I'd say for every one (youngish) overseas football fan who'd heard of Stanley Matthews there would be at least 30 who'd heard of Delap. I wouldn't be surprised if it was 50 or 100. Just the nature of blanket Premier League coverage, he was incredibly famous ten years ago and most people who pay any attention to the PL (hundreds of millions) will remember that. As legendary as we know the likes of Stan, Tom Finney etc were, they're pretty obscure historical figures in the wider world. Many more people would be aware of Banks, for example. I don’t agree with either of those things. Rory was briefly famous for a short time over 10 years ago for a mid table top flight club. I think you’re grossly overstating things to suggest that is well remembered overseas, especially in countries with a strong football tradition of their own. 10 years is a long time for something that didn’t, to outsiders, last particularly long. Matthews and Banks were globally revered footballers. Banks is perennially in the conversation as the best goalkeeper ever. Matthews again had a reputation that helped spawn the Balon D’Or. The operative words being "were" and "had", perhaps. Also I'm not making any absolute assertions about Delap's fame now, I'm just talking relatively. I honestly wouldn't be at all confident of finding a single person in my overseas social/family circle who'd be aware of Stan, particularly anyone under the age of about 60. I know plenty would remember Delap, he's a recent, pretty iconic player (for an unusual, memorable reason) from a globally-covered league, it's just inevitable. I had a little kid shout his name at me in the street once because I had my Stoke shirt on - that aint gonna happen for a grainy wartime figure whose name people *might* have heard once or twice but about whom they've never seen any meaningful content on telly. Banks is known for the Pele save but even then I'd suggest that to say he's "perennially in the conversation as the best goalkeeper ever" anywhere other than England is generous. I appreciate this is a bit anecdotal but there's similar testimony from Asia above. The recency and the blanket global coverage makes it no contest |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 23, 2021 22:00:16 GMT
I don’t agree with either of those things. Rory was briefly famous for a short time over 10 years ago for a mid table top flight club. I think you’re grossly overstating things to suggest that is well remembered overseas, especially in countries with a strong football tradition of their own. 10 years is a long time for something that didn’t, to outsiders, last particularly long. Matthews and Banks were globally revered footballers. Banks is perennially in the conversation as the best goalkeeper ever. Matthews again had a reputation that helped spawn the Balon D’Or. The operative words being "were" and "had", perhaps. Also I'm not making any absolute assertions about Delap's fame now, I'm just talking relatively. I honestly wouldn't be at all confident of finding a single person in my overseas social/family circle who'd be aware of Stan, particularly anyone under the age of about 60. I know plenty would remember Delap, he's a recent, pretty iconic player (for an unusual, memorable reason) from a globally-covered league, it's just inevitable. I had a little kid shout his name at me in the street once because I had my Stoke shirt on - that aint gonna happen for a grainy wartime figure whose name people *might* have heard once or twice but about whom they've never seen any meaningful content on telly. Banks is known for the Pele save but even then I'd suggest that to say he's "perennially in the conversation as the best goalkeeper ever" anywhere other than England is generous. I appreciate this is a bit anecdotal but there's similar testimony from Asia above. The recency and the blanket global coverage makes it no contest But the testimony from Asia is from when Rory was playing and on telly all the time, not from today? Those days are also a long time ago now and I’m not sure why we’d expect a fan in Spain to remember him any more than many here would recall say Marcos Senna or Dani Guiza here? Banks is a World Cup winning goalkeeper, he’s known for more than just a save. I don’t think reputation of historical big names diminishes to the extent that they’re trumped by relative footnotes from the recent past. |
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Sept 23, 2021 22:07:10 GMT
I'd forgotten he played for Bolton, but now you mention him, it comes back. I think Rory Delap will be remembered more than many footballers who would be much more famous than him if it wasn't for the throw-in. I saw him alongside 2 or 3 other players (I can't remember who exactly) I consider much more famous on a massive billboard advertising the Premier League in South East Asia. Any Asian person I spoke to in Asia who knew little English, it was either Delap or Crouch they mentioned when I mentioned Stoke City. Granted, that was only from a sample of four people. Delap's got that notoriety that makes him memorable. Like Taki Inoue in F1. I doubt I could name a single non-British F1 backmarker, but I remember Inoue because he got hit by a safety car twice. It's always worth a look... Most people will probably remember the song "That's Not My Name" but not be aware who its by, whereas I'd guess many of those same people will have heard of Frank Sinatra but not know what songs are his unless they're reminded. Come on, everyone’s going to know My Way. Great Inoue reference, always good to see! Rory was on a billboard at the time, my point is that doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll be remembered today. To non-Stokies it was a brief thing that doesn’t necessarily resonate - in England he’s shorthand for a long throw still. I’m not convinced someone weaned on Ronaldinho and Iniesta will necessarily still be able to picture him. You'd be surprised. Not that I'm a great barometer but when you mentioned Sinatra I thought "Is My Way his?" Then I thought of a couple of Christmas tracks. I've done a few surveys about famous songs and what people remember. One online survey includes the data split by age of the person and the decade the song is from. If I remember where it was, I'll share the link. The conclusion was that old songs are being forgotten, and fast. We may have to agree to disagree on the Delap-related point. There's this website where you can compare the view count of Wikipedia pages: pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2021-01-01&end=2021-09-22&pages=Rory_Delap|Jay-Jay_Okocha|Ryan_Shawcross|Bojan_Krkić|Nat_Lofthouse|Stanley_Matthews|Ronaldinho|Andrés_Iniesta|Georgi_Kinkladze|Tony_YeboahMaybe it helps prove your point more than mine. Though Nat Lofthouse is rock bottom, and I'm not sure I would've expected Delap to be so far above Yeboah. I could also argue that people already know about Rory Delap, so they don't need to view his Wiki page. But I won't argue that point. |
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Sept 23, 2021 22:09:53 GMT
Maybe I'm not quite getting across my point. People might not remember Delap off the top of their heads. But if they see Stoke City and have watched the Premier League for the past 20 years, there's a strong chance they'll then think of Delap by association, rather than any other Stoke player. Which I think makes him more famous than some top players at other more famous clubs than Stoke.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 23, 2021 22:16:52 GMT
Maybe I'm not quite getting across my point. People might not remember Delap off the top of their heads. But if they see Stoke City and have watched the Premier League for the past 20 years, there's a strong chance they'll then think of Delap by association, rather than any other Stoke player. What if they haven’t watched the Premier League or show it the same passing attention many here show La Liga, say? My issue was with the post earlier that suggested nobody in Barcelona could have heard of Stoke City before 2008. Football is a game where its legends loom large and stories are passed from fathers to sons etc over years. Matthews also had a big following in Africa. His reach was huge and I don’t think this is a sport that forgets its legends. |
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Post by PotterLog on Sept 23, 2021 22:40:41 GMT
The operative words being "were" and "had", perhaps. Also I'm not making any absolute assertions about Delap's fame now, I'm just talking relatively. I honestly wouldn't be at all confident of finding a single person in my overseas social/family circle who'd be aware of Stan, particularly anyone under the age of about 60. I know plenty would remember Delap, he's a recent, pretty iconic player (for an unusual, memorable reason) from a globally-covered league, it's just inevitable. I had a little kid shout his name at me in the street once because I had my Stoke shirt on - that aint gonna happen for a grainy wartime figure whose name people *might* have heard once or twice but about whom they've never seen any meaningful content on telly. Banks is known for the Pele save but even then I'd suggest that to say he's "perennially in the conversation as the best goalkeeper ever" anywhere other than England is generous. I appreciate this is a bit anecdotal but there's similar testimony from Asia above. The recency and the blanket global coverage makes it no contest But the testimony from Asia is from when Rory was playing and on telly all the time, not from today? Those days are also a long time ago now and I’m not sure why we’d expect a fan in Spain to remember him any more than many here would recall say Marcos Senna or Dani Guiza here? Banks is a World Cup winning goalkeeper, he’s known for more than just a save. I don’t think reputation of historical big names diminishes to the extent that they’re trumped by relative footnotes from the recent past. I think you are massively under-estimating/forgetting the impact Delap’s throws had. For that season or so they were completely sensational, nobody had ever seen anything like it and it was all anybody talked about when Stoke played (or when the big clubs played Stoke). Anyone who was paying attention to the Premier League at that time (hundreds of millions) isn’t going to just forget about it in 10 years. Anyway. Don’t get me out conducting straw polls now 😅😉 |
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Sept 23, 2021 22:40:58 GMT
Maybe I'm not quite getting across my point. People might not remember Delap off the top of their heads. But if they see Stoke City and have watched the Premier League for the past 20 years, there's a strong chance they'll then think of Delap by association, rather than any other Stoke player. What if they haven’t watched the Premier League or show it the same passing attention many here show La Liga, say? My issue was with the post earlier that suggested nobody in Barcelona could have heard of Stoke City before 2008. Football is a game where its legends loom large and stories are passed from fathers to sons etc over years. Matthews also had a big following in Africa. His reach was huge and I don’t think this is a sport that forgets its legends. If they haven't watched the Premier League at all, it's unlikely they'd know of Delap. Though he did edge into popular culture for some who don't know much about football, especially in the UK. And it's frustrating how often football is treated as if it only existed since the Premier League's inception. That leaves most of football club history in England out 99% of the time stats are given in commentary. I bet a far higher percentage of people in Barcelona have heard of Stoke City since 2008 though. Messi was even asked the question about a cold rainy night. Surely those stories are more of your own/family's team rather than opposition? Anyone who saw Puskas against England would've talked about it to their kids, maybe those kids told their kids in passing, but then it gets mostly forgotten. Football as a sport may not forget it's legends, but the general fan (whether in the UK or abroad, and I count myself as a fan who only really cares about Stoke City) is more likely to have that superficial knowledge I mentioned. They've heard of Puskas and may know he was Hungarian. I would hazard a guess that top football magazines like FourFourTwo would include a good spread of footballers (spanning decades and countries) in a list of the greatest of all time, but most lists will include the obvious ones like Pele, Cruyff and Maradona but otherwise be largely made up of players from the 90s and onwards - Modric rather than Matthews. |
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