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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 16:42:45 GMT
Don’t forget we were strong for the first half of that season. 10 unbeaten in the run up to Christmas, that amazing 3-1 win against Liverpool. We were unbeaten at home until the infamous 0-4 against Chelsea, and that was in January! The 2nd half of that season was as bad a time under Pulis since the binary season. It was soul destroying and became completely intolerable when relegation flirtation was thrown into the mix. It was so bad that the board acted, and that’s saying a lot considering it was their reluctance to act in time that ultimately led to relegation IMO, so they were hardly trigger happy. But getting rid of Pulis when they did was spot on as the camp had clearly had enough of the drill sergeant style. That doesn’t mean they weren’t a solid core, just human. But they were demonstrably a solid core because Hughes’ best teams were built on a spine of Pulis players. They needed reinvigorating though and under a lesser manager could/would have wilted after Pulis was rightly moved on. I'm not sure we were strong in the first half of that season. We had our moments and results were good but performances were iffy and the fall was on the horizon - the problems that plagued the back end of the previous season were never fixed and we hardly ever came close to looking like the team playing the brilliant football we did en route to the cup final. It took Crouch getting injured in that last season for us to put a run of form together, yet as soon as the manager's favourites were fit they were back in the team and we were back to the sludge. I think we agree generally, I just think reinvigorating that side and taking it higher than it had been before is a trickier task than some are making out. I should make myself clear. I’m not looking to denigrate what Hughes achieved here. I think he’s a fantastic niche manager - I’m just sceptical that he has the ability to rebuild teams. He had the perfect foundations here to fully express the best aspects of his managerial skills and he delivered with flying colours (for a period). The club played the best football we’ve played since the 70s under Hughes. I know the pre FA Cup final period under Pulis was amazing, but it was a totally different style of exciting football and a total outlier when judged against his entire 2nd spell here. Pulis definitely wasn’t capable of doing what Hughes did though, which was a total stylistic transformation and getting the team to play a much more progressive style as a standard rather than an outlier. I’m struggling to explain myself as eloquently as I’d like…the thoughts are bubbling but I’m struggling to form them fully. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t think you can fully disregard Pulis’ legacy when you talk about the Hughes era - they are intrinsically linked. But I also don’t think acknowledging that takes anything away from what Hughes did. I don’t see it as a counter-balance.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Sept 22, 2021 17:00:49 GMT
You're right he cant take all the credit for the Hughes success but he can without doubt take some as Hughes inherited a hard working fit team with a decent spine to it. Hughes sadly despite the initial success forgot what had made us successful in the first place, discipline, fitness and a fuck you attitude. A hard working team that failed to win all but three of its games between Boxing Day and May of his final season and 78% of its league games from January 2012. Sometimes in a league as tough as the Premiership hard work and discipline isn't enough. But there is no doubt whatsoever that the work ethic of Pulis' team was way superior to Hughes team. Not even a debate. And it was the lack of discipline and hard work that partly resulted in the total mess Hughes left behind. The rest was down to absolutely appalling transfer business, which I know you yourself say was Hughes fault as manager. I just think TS had a much bigger role in that shyte transfer business than some are prepared to accept. And anyway I am not trying to say it was wrong to get rid of Pulis. I think he had run out of ideas. And I am not denying Hughes the credit he deserves for the good 3 years he had.
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Post by nonameface on Sept 22, 2021 17:16:41 GMT
To be fair I was in Hamburg a few years back in a bar playing table football with 2 locals, They asked where I was from and I told them Stoke on trent and they said oh yes can you do it in stoke on a cold rainy night, which was quite funny at he time although my vale supporting nephew wasn't impressed by the fact they'd never heard of Port Vale. In about 2013 I was on the back of a motor bike taxi in Bangkok, I’ve got no helmet on ... He then takes both hands off the bike and starts imitating Rorys long throw. I was very happy when I got off in one piece. Quite some story! They love a happy customer.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 22, 2021 17:29:50 GMT
A hard working team that failed to win all but three of its games between Boxing Day and May of his final season and 78% of its league games from January 2012. Sometimes in a league as tough as the Premiership hard work and discipline isn't enough. But there is no doubt whatsoever that the work ethic of Pulis' team was way superior to Hughes team. Not even a debate. And it was the lack of discipline and hard work that partly resulted in the total mess Hughes left behind. The rest was down to absolutely appalling transfer business, which I know you yourself say was Hughes fault as manager. I just think TS had a much bigger role in that shyte transfer business than some are prepared to accept. And anyway I am not trying to say it was wrong to get rid of Pulis. I think he had run out of ideas. And I am not denying Hughes the credit he deserves for the good 3 years he had. There wasn’t a lot of discipline when they were chucking pigs’ heads about and bricks through each other’s windows, that’s my point. Things had come to an end and the squad needed new life breathing into it. It isn’t easy for a manager to come in and do that. What evidence is there to suggest Scholes had a say in who we signed? Is this not just your self-confessed hatred of him coming into play?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 22, 2021 17:32:10 GMT
They needed reinvigorating though and under a lesser manager could/would have wilted after Pulis was rightly moved on. I'm not sure we were strong in the first half of that season. We had our moments and results were good but performances were iffy and the fall was on the horizon - the problems that plagued the back end of the previous season were never fixed and we hardly ever came close to looking like the team playing the brilliant football we did en route to the cup final. It took Crouch getting injured in that last season for us to put a run of form together, yet as soon as the manager's favourites were fit they were back in the team and we were back to the sludge. I think we agree generally, I just think reinvigorating that side and taking it higher than it had been before is a trickier task than some are making out. I should make myself clear. I’m not looking to denigrate what Hughes achieved here. I think he’s a fantastic niche manager - I’m just sceptical that he has the ability to rebuild teams. He had the perfect foundations here to fully express the best aspects of his managerial skills and he delivered with flying colours (for a period). The club played the best football we’ve played since the 70s under Hughes. I know the pre FA Cup final period under Pulis was amazing, but it was a totally different style of exciting football and a total outlier when judged against his entire 2nd spell here. Pulis definitely wasn’t capable of doing what Hughes did though, which was a total stylistic transformation and getting the team to play a much more progressive style as a standard rather than an outlier. I’m struggling to explain myself as eloquently as I’d like…the thoughts are bubbling but I’m struggling to form them fully. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t think you can fully disregard Pulis’ legacy when you talk about the Hughes era - they are intrinsically linked. But I also don’t think acknowledging that takes anything away from what Hughes did. I don’t see it as a counter-balance. I agree with most of that and that Hughes clearly struggles to build his own team. My point is more that the one he inherited was in a state and it wasn’t just a case of him bolting an Arnie onto it and job done. On his watch a lot of those players he inherited went onto play their best football for Stoke. That’s down to him, nobody else.
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Post by innercitysumo on Sept 22, 2021 17:49:40 GMT
In about 2013 I was on the back of a motor bike taxi in Bangkok, I’ve got no helmet on ... He then takes both hands off the bike and starts imitating Rorys long throw. I was very happy when I got off in one piece. Quite some story! They love a happy customer. 😂 they certainly do
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Post by march4 on Sept 22, 2021 18:47:57 GMT
If Barca had appointed TP manager they would have won every single game for years and years. No doubt their biggest regret You would imagine so.
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Post by Linx on Sept 22, 2021 19:02:40 GMT
I get the point by the OP. - there is still a perception that Stoke play ugly football, and it turns up in the most unlikely places, and we have become a shorthand way of describing unattractive, pragmatic football. Even now, some eight years since the Pulis era, and eight years is a long time in football. On the BBC site today, I was trying to enjoy the match report of our win at Watford, but there was still a significant number of comments painting it as the Beast killing Beauty, and it wasn’t just Arsenal fans and Vale trolls.
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Sept 22, 2021 19:09:22 GMT
Whilst I love the fact that were clearly still massive, Barcelona need to pipe down, they've got a 100% loss record against us.
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Post by chipsaway on Sept 22, 2021 19:19:57 GMT
Yep that's the Pulis legacy. And I thought the Pulis legacy was a promotion, ten years in the Prem, an FA cup Final and a European tour Still if some want to look on it as poor period that’s up to them I suppose It is possible to acknowledge all that, while at the same time acknowledging that his pragmatic approach has made us a byword around the world for crude longball.
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Post by generationex on Sept 22, 2021 19:27:51 GMT
That anyone in Spain (under the age of 60) has ever even heard of Stoke City is down to Pulis.
23 years of obscurity saw to that.
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Post by yyy on Sept 22, 2021 19:43:13 GMT
'Primitive football' ~ (a)(verb) ~ a successful brand of football played within the rules of the game by honest hard working men that calcium deficient specimens of the same species lose their shit over
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 22, 2021 19:49:51 GMT
That anyone in Spain (under the age of 60) has ever even heard of Stoke City is down to Pulis. 23 years of obscurity saw to that. I don’t think you have to be 60+ to have heard of Stanley Matthews, Gordon Banks etc.
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Post by generationex on Sept 22, 2021 20:03:45 GMT
If you support Stoke you would think so - but before promotion I’d often say I supported Stoke to people in different countries. No idea. I’d say ‘you know Sir Stanley Matthews’ . Only one ever said he’d heard of him - from the Blackpool final.
Globally, English football began in 1992.
We didn’t exist until 2008,
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 20:15:50 GMT
That anyone in Spain (under the age of 60) has ever even heard of Stoke City is down to Pulis. 23 years of obscurity saw to that. I don’t think you have to be 60+ to have heard of Stanley Matthews, Gordon Banks etc. That really depends on how into football you are though surely, and the generation you are talking to? I love football, but I don’t know many of the players of previous generations from other countries. Matthews would be too far ahead of many people’s time in my opinion, and Banks played in a position that doesn’t receive the many of the headlines. As with most of these type of quotes, they are aimed at something the occasional fan may have heard of in an attempt to sound insightful.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 22, 2021 20:21:03 GMT
If you support Stoke you would think so - but before promotion I’d often say I supported Stoke to people in different countries. No idea. I’d say ‘you know Sir Stanley Matthews’ . Only one ever said he’d heard of him - from the Blackpool final. Globally, English football began in 1992. We didn’t exist until 2008, I don’t think that’s true at all. If you’re a football fan in Spain who knows enough about the world game to have heard of Stoke City, I’d say there’s a strong chance you’ve heard of Stanley Matthews and Gordon Banks. The same way I’d wager if you’ve heard of say, Deportivo, you’ve probably heard of one or two of their famous players from the past.
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Post by hardcastle on Sept 22, 2021 20:23:51 GMT
Whilst I love the fact that were clearly still massive, Barcelona need to pipe down, they've got a 100% loss record against us. I love your subtle inclusion of 'still', as if somehow Barca will be playing in front of crowds of ten to fifteen thousand in just a few short years when their bubble finally bursts !!!
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 22, 2021 20:24:46 GMT
I don’t think you have to be 60+ to have heard of Stanley Matthews, Gordon Banks etc. That really depends on how into football you are though surely, and the generation you are talking to? I love football, but I don’t know many of the players of previous generations from other countries. Matthews would be too far ahead of many people’s time in my opinion, and Banks played in a position that doesn’t receive the many of the headlines. As with most of these type of quotes, they are aimed at something the occasional fan may have heard of in an attempt to sound insightful. I don’t know if it necessarily does matter what generation, there’s plenty of fans who are interested in the history of the game. Matthews is an enormous name in football’s history. We’ve heard of Puskas, Garrincha, Di Stefano etc, or even Mazzola, Meazza, Sindelaar etc, why wouldn’t people in other countries have heard of the player who won the first Balon D’Or?
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Post by wuzza on Sept 22, 2021 20:32:35 GMT
If you support Stoke you would think so - but before promotion I’d often say I supported Stoke to people in different countries. No idea. I’d say ‘you know Sir Stanley Matthews’ . Only one ever said he’d heard of him - from the Blackpool final. Globally, English football began in 1992. We didn’t exist until 2008, I don’t think that’s true at all. If you’re a football fan in Spain who knows enough about the world game to have heard of Stoke City, I’d say there’s a strong chance you’ve heard of Stanley Matthews and Gordon Banks. The same way I’d wager if you’ve heard of say, Deportivo, you’ve probably heard of one or two of their famous players from the past. Sadly I think you would have a chance with Peter Crouch or Rory Delap but Sir Stan - I doubt it. With regard your Deportivo ‘test’. I can tell you they play in blue and white stripes and won the league once back in the 80s or 90s but as for naming a player - not a hope.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 20:34:35 GMT
That really depends on how into football you are though surely, and the generation you are talking to? I love football, but I don’t know many of the players of previous generations from other countries. Matthews would be too far ahead of many people’s time in my opinion, and Banks played in a position that doesn’t receive the many of the headlines. As with most of these type of quotes, they are aimed at something the occasional fan may have heard of in an attempt to sound insightful. I don’t know if it necessarily does matter what generation, there’s plenty of fans who are interested in the history of the game. Matthews is an enormous name in football’s history. We’ve heard of Puskas, Garrincha, Di Stefano etc, or even Mazzola, Meazza, Sindelaar etc, why wouldn’t people in other countries have heard of the player who won the first Balon D’Or? I’ve heard of the first three, not the others.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 22, 2021 20:36:46 GMT
I don’t think that’s true at all. If you’re a football fan in Spain who knows enough about the world game to have heard of Stoke City, I’d say there’s a strong chance you’ve heard of Stanley Matthews and Gordon Banks. The same way I’d wager if you’ve heard of say, Deportivo, you’ve probably heard of one or two of their famous players from the past. Sadly I think you would have a chance with Peter Crouch or Rory Delap but Sir Stan - I doubt it. With regard your Deportivo ‘test’. I can tell you they play in blue and white stripes and won the league once back in the 80s or 90s but as for naming a player - not a hope. You’ve heard of Bebeto though surely? I think people are underestimating what a big name in football worldwide Stanley Matthews is.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 22, 2021 20:38:06 GMT
I don’t know if it necessarily does matter what generation, there’s plenty of fans who are interested in the history of the game. Matthews is an enormous name in football’s history. We’ve heard of Puskas, Garrincha, Di Stefano etc, or even Mazzola, Meazza, Sindelaar etc, why wouldn’t people in other countries have heard of the player who won the first Balon D’Or? I’ve heard of the first three, not the others. You’ve heard of the first three though, there you are.
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Post by wuzza on Sept 22, 2021 20:42:02 GMT
Sadly I think you would have a chance with Peter Crouch or Rory Delap but Sir Stan - I doubt it. With regard your Deportivo ‘test’. I can tell you they play in blue and white stripes and won the league once back in the 80s or 90s but as for naming a player - not a hope. You’ve heard of Bebeto though surely? I think people are underestimating what a big name in football worldwide Stanley Matthews is. I have now you come to mention him but I honestly hadn’t a clue who he played for. Also as has been mentioned the iconic image of Sir Stan involves the FA Cup and him wearing a distinctly un-stripey shirt.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 20:44:43 GMT
I’ve heard of the first three, not the others. You’ve heard of the first three though, there you are. Yes, it’s true. But there is only room for so much knowledge to be stored and I do wonder how many true greats slip through people’s minds. Matthews changed football, not only through talent, but also through adherence to diet, designing specific football boots etc, but England as a nation aren’t great at selling their history in Europe.
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Post by generationex on Sept 22, 2021 20:49:28 GMT
Sadly, on a global scale, the most well known players to play for Stoke are probably Crouch and Owen.
And oddly Rory. If you go to the Southern Hemisphere they still make the ‘long throw’ motion when you say you’re from Stoke!
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 22, 2021 20:50:34 GMT
You’ve heard of Bebeto though surely? I think people are underestimating what a big name in football worldwide Stanley Matthews is. I have now you come to mention him but I honestly hadn’t a clue who he played for. Also as has been mentioned the iconic image of Sir Stan involves the FA Cup and him wearing a distinctly un-stripey shirt. I’m not sure that’s the iconic image of him to people overseas, where the cup isn’t anywhere near the big deal it used to be here. Again, he won the first ever Balon D’Or, he was considered one of the greatest players in the world for years.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 22, 2021 20:52:14 GMT
You’ve heard of the first three though, there you are. Yes, it’s true. But there is only room for so much knowledge to be stored and I do wonder how many true greats slip through people’s minds. Matthews changed football, not only through talent, but also through adherence to diet, designing specific football boots etc, but England as a nation aren’t great at selling their history in Europe. Aren’t we? I feel like that’s all we are good at, we’re a country obsessed with the past and our faded glories.
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Sept 22, 2021 20:54:23 GMT
Whilst I love the fact that were clearly still massive, Barcelona need to pipe down, they've got a 100% loss record against us. I love your subtle inclusion of 'still', as if somehow Barca will be playing in front of crowds of ten to fifteen thousand in just a few short years when their bubble finally bursts !!! Have you seen their front 3? I'd say the bubble has well and truly popped. Just a shit Espanyol these days.
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Post by wuzza on Sept 22, 2021 20:57:47 GMT
I have now you come to mention him but I honestly hadn’t a clue who he played for. Also as has been mentioned the iconic image of Sir Stan involves the FA Cup and him wearing a distinctly un-stripey shirt. I’m not sure that’s the iconic image of him to people overseas, where the cup isn’t anywhere near the big deal it used to be here. Again, he won the first ever Balon D’Or, he was considered one of the greatest players in the world for years. I really hope you are right but I’m a bit cynical - especially with the generational impact. I’m getting on but I know the names of very few pre WW ll players - even for Stoke - so I imagine for anyone under 50 knowledge of famous players in the 50s is very limited.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 22, 2021 21:02:27 GMT
I’m not sure that’s the iconic image of him to people overseas, where the cup isn’t anywhere near the big deal it used to be here. Again, he won the first ever Balon D’Or, he was considered one of the greatest players in the world for years. I really hope you are right but I’m a bit cynical - especially with the generational impact. I’m getting on but I know the names of very few pre WW ll players - even for Stoke - so I imagine for anyone under 50 knowledge of famous players in the 50s is very limited. I don’t subscribe to the idea that people don’t have any knowledge of anything that happened before they were born - maybe that’s just the historian part of me talking. Purely from a Barca perspective I’d wager they’d know Stoke City as much for Bojan and Afellay from anyone in recent times as anyone else.
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