borges
Academy Starlet
Posts: 104
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Post by borges on May 4, 2021 16:37:00 GMT
Not much of a comparison unless you were also a professional footballer in your 20s, is it? I think others have hit the nail on the head with regards to an inability to effectively rotate players in the starting XI or make meaningful substitutions putting us at a disadvantage when compared to other clubs in the division, but the equivocation by some supporters of 'tired', 'running on empty' etc. as literally meaning too tired to play is maddening. As far as I'm aware, no player has missed a match because they were fatigued (injured, rested as a precaution - absolutely). It's the nature of elite sport - small margins have big impacts on performance levels - so MON saying we're 'tired' is about the team being unable to sustain high levels of performance across the 90 minutes, not them needing an early night. If you are a professional athlete in your 20s (or even early 30s) there is nearly no excuse to be tired or running on empty. If you properly take care of yourself, rest, eat and sleep you should be perfectly fine to play a game or two each week. This was known 30 plus years ago and now with modern sports science its even easier. Yes there are individual times when you may have an off day or illness, but it's no excuse for an entire team to be shit. The only way this is a valid excuse would be if the coaching and training staff were shit at their jobs and over worked the players week in and week out in training. They run what, 7 miles in a game? My wife does that 6 days a week and is not knackered half way through her runs, and she's in her 40s! Mental fatigue of losing or being second best most weeks could be a real thing though. I can only pray that is what is being referred to! Again, you're equivocating professional footballer 'tired' with man in the street 'tired'. The players in the starting XI are pretty much all playing 2 games a week - it's really only special cases like Fletcher and Chester who are rested/rotated with any regularity - so the idea that they're not fit enough to play 90 mins twice a week is nonsense. They can all go through the motions for the entirety of the game but, relative to teams where squad rotation and substitutions have been more effectively implemented, performance levels can't be maintained for that duration. Doesn't matter how fit players are - at an elite level, someone who has played 180 minutes across the last two matches is going to last the distance less well than an equally well-trained opposition who's only had to play 120 minutes across the same period. Comparisons to what non-pros could do in their 20s (or even what people think they can do in their 40s) are redundant because the majority of us have never been close to the level of physicality required to play professional sport.
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Post by tosh on May 4, 2021 20:10:00 GMT
Luton and Rotherham certainly don’t seem to be running on empty tonight. Rotherham have played three games more than anybody in the last few weeks. Both these low budget sides may lack quality (like us) but they still seem to have more pace and energy than us,
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Post by Gods on May 4, 2021 21:16:41 GMT
Fair enough I'm just trying to cast my mind back to when I was in my 20's if I was confronted with the news that I would need to play a football game once every 5 days. I think my first reaction would have been, what am I going to do the rest of the time?! Not much of a comparison unless you were also a professional footballer in your 20s, is it? I think others have hit the nail on the head with regards to an inability to effectively rotate players in the starting XI or make meaningful substitutions putting us at a disadvantage when compared to other clubs in the division, but the equivocation by some supporters of 'tired', 'running on empty' etc. as literally meaning too tired to play is maddening. As far as I'm aware, no player has missed a match because they were fatigued (injured, rested as a precaution - absolutely). It's the nature of elite sport - small margins have big impacts on performance levels - so MON saying we're 'tired' is about the team being unable to sustain high levels of performance across the 90 minutes, not them needing an early night. I get your point that football at this level takes place at the margins but equally if we are playing 2 matches a week at times then so too are our opponents. If we are 1% off our maximum owing to fatigue then so too should be our opponents.
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Post by scfcno1fan on May 4, 2021 21:24:57 GMT
I will never understand the fitness argument.
I just won’t.
This is their job.
They have to play twice a week max.
As someone correctly pointed out, there are a whole host of other sports, including tennis, rugby and cycling where the physical toll on the individuals is so much worse.
Footballers have it easy and I’ll never not be convinced otherwise.
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Post by Gods on May 4, 2021 22:15:09 GMT
I will never understand the fitness argument. I just won’t. This is their job. They have to play twice a week max. As someone correctly pointed out, there are a whole host of other sports, including tennis, rugby and cycling where the physical toll on the individuals is so much worse. Footballers have it easy and I’ll never not be convinced otherwise. Yes, if you ever watch Rafa Nadal and Novak Djokovic trading blows on the clay in the suffocating heat in the French Open in Paris for the thick end of 5 hours having played every other day for a fortnight leading up to it you know what real fitness looks like! It makes pissing about on the grass for 90 minutes 3 times a fortnight with 22 other blokes look like a picnic.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2021 22:54:42 GMT
Not much of a comparison unless you were also a professional footballer in your 20s, is it? I think others have hit the nail on the head with regards to an inability to effectively rotate players in the starting XI or make meaningful substitutions putting us at a disadvantage when compared to other clubs in the division, but the equivocation by some supporters of 'tired', 'running on empty' etc. as literally meaning too tired to play is maddening. As far as I'm aware, no player has missed a match because they were fatigued (injured, rested as a precaution - absolutely). It's the nature of elite sport - small margins have big impacts on performance levels - so MON saying we're 'tired' is about the team being unable to sustain high levels of performance across the 90 minutes, not them needing an early night. I get your point that football at this level takes place at the margins but equally if we are playing 2 matches a week at times then so too are our opponents. If we are 1% off our maximum owing to fatigue then so too should be our opponents. Who would be so stupid as to claim they are not?
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borges
Academy Starlet
Posts: 104
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Post by borges on May 4, 2021 22:58:44 GMT
Not much of a comparison unless you were also a professional footballer in your 20s, is it? I think others have hit the nail on the head with regards to an inability to effectively rotate players in the starting XI or make meaningful substitutions putting us at a disadvantage when compared to other clubs in the division, but the equivocation by some supporters of 'tired', 'running on empty' etc. as literally meaning too tired to play is maddening. As far as I'm aware, no player has missed a match because they were fatigued (injured, rested as a precaution - absolutely). It's the nature of elite sport - small margins have big impacts on performance levels - so MON saying we're 'tired' is about the team being unable to sustain high levels of performance across the 90 minutes, not them needing an early night. I get your point that football at this level takes place at the margins but equally if we are playing 2 matches a week at times then so too are our opponents. If we are 1% off our maximum owing to fatigue then so too should be our opponents. Not if they're using subs, rotating their starting XIs etc. every game. On the Barnsley thread, I pointed out that they generally make all 5 allowed subs each match - diminishing the workload of half their outfield players each game. Don't think we've made all 5 subs in a game too often (maybe when we've had red cards?) and it shows.
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Post by citynickscfc on May 5, 2021 5:35:36 GMT
The entire club is tired and running on empty imo.
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Post by Gods on May 5, 2021 6:16:22 GMT
I get your point that football at this level takes place at the margins but equally if we are playing 2 matches a week at times then so too are our opponents. If we are 1% off our maximum owing to fatigue then so too should be our opponents. Who would be so stupid as to claim they are not? In which case what is the point of MON even making the point before and after every match we play?
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Post by theonlooker on May 5, 2021 6:22:27 GMT
It's a question that needs asking and asking in relation to other teams. Many of which we have played recently that have looked like Ken Dodd on ecstacy in comparison to us, as they have glided around the pitch like Torville and Dean.
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Post by milky on May 5, 2021 6:30:24 GMT
We are certainly running on empty in terms of ability !
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Post by crapslinger on May 5, 2021 7:00:57 GMT
He's talking about himself running short of ideas, running short of excuses and running out of time he's getting desperate.
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Post by crapslinger on May 5, 2021 7:09:51 GMT
Although eg set pieces may be practiced in training. It all very part time. EG the monday club when those who didnt play on Saturday go in . Rest days, travelling etc. How many professional footballers want to improve their ability. They have made it. Can you make certain players practice eg whipping a ball in repeatedly until they get it right..?
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Post by nott1 on May 5, 2021 8:09:35 GMT
The more you play the fitter you get......true or false?
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Post by leesandfordstoupe on May 5, 2021 8:13:03 GMT
He's talking about himself running short of ideas, running short of excuses and running out of time he's getting desperate. I don’t think he had many ideas in the first place. He’s a spoiler with no significant experience of creating a side to take the game to his opponents. Having said that our players are mentally weak and give up without too much of an excuse.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2021 8:40:53 GMT
Who would be so stupid as to claim they are not? In which case what is the point of MON even making the point before and after every match we play? He's stressed.
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Post by thestatusquo on May 5, 2021 8:48:27 GMT
Is it tiredness or is it we are just crap? I’m tired of us being crap !!!
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Post by tqstokie on May 5, 2021 8:59:41 GMT
You don't need to be super fit to pass the ball to a team mate 5 or 10 yards away which is something our lot have difficulty doing. It requires fitness to be able to do that for at least 90 mins. Some players we have had were never super fit but made up for that with their intelligent reading of the game and positioning. Alec Elder a prime example.
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on May 5, 2021 17:58:00 GMT
Can’t say I’ve been specifically tracking it but I get the distinct impression we are wasting the opportunity to put 5 sets of fresh legs on to the pitch.
Other teams seem willing to send players out for 45-60 mins of absolute full intensity then replace them to keep tempo up at HT or on the hour.
We seem to just be sticking to the same old routine, rarely use all the subs unless there is an injury.....which you could understand if we were winning. But we’re not.
You could easily switch in cousins, Thompson, Mikel, clucas, Allen during the course of any game, 45 mins of full on press, swap at HT.
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Post by yyy on May 5, 2021 18:20:28 GMT
Is it tiredness or is it we are just crap? I’m tired of us being crap !!! Buckle up, some believe this is the 'new normal' lol
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2021 19:28:01 GMT
This seems to be at then heart of all our problems if the post match interviews are to be believed. Simplistically the whole squad is fucked. But why exactly? Truth is we have played 18 games in just over 3 months since January which equates to 6 matches per month or just over 1 per week. I mean what would happen were we, heaven forbid, to progress in a cup competition? The lads would spontaneously combust! Maybe we need some of them to spontaneously combust, to help us get over over our FFP woes? Stick them in an armchair, maybe a rocking chair, in the corner of Scholesy's office...got to be worth a go??
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Post by owdestokie2 on May 7, 2021 20:40:36 GMT
If you are a professional athlete in your 20s (or even early 30s) there is nearly no excuse to be tired or running on empty. If you properly take care of yourself, rest, eat and sleep you should be perfectly fine to play a game or two each week. This was known 30 plus years ago and now with modern sports science its even easier. Yes there are individual times when you may have an off day or illness, but it's no excuse for an entire team to be shit. The only way this is a valid excuse would be if the coaching and training staff were shit at their jobs and over worked the players week in and week out in training. They run what, 7 miles in a game? My wife does that 6 days a week and is not knackered half way through her runs, and she's in her 40s! Mental fatigue of losing or being second best most weeks could be a real thing though. I can only pray that is what is being referred to! Again, you're equivocating professional footballer 'tired' with man in the street 'tired'. The players in the starting XI are pretty much all playing 2 games a week - it's really only special cases like Fletcher and Chester who are rested/rotated with any regularity - so the idea that they're not fit enough to play 90 mins twice a week is nonsense. They can all go through the motions for the entirety of the game but, relative to teams where squad rotation and substitutions have been more effectively implemented, performance levels can't be maintained for that duration. Doesn't matter how fit players are - at an elite level, someone who has played 180 minutes across the last two matches is going to last the distance less well than an equally well-trained opposition who's only had to play 120 minutes across the same period. Comparisons to what non-pros could do in their 20s (or even what people think they can do in their 40s) are redundant because the majority of us have never been close to the level of physicality required to play professional sport. Thanks for posting an informative/pragmatic argument on the “Oatcake” which is recognised as a social media platform providing exemplary, well thought out and considered alternative points of view.
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Post by dirtclod on May 8, 2021 5:18:41 GMT
This season end for us is frustrating. Makes me want to commit a senseless act. I think...I'd like to fly over there and throw a cabbage at Steve Bruce. He's about due for another one don't you think?
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Post by Staffsoatcake on May 8, 2021 5:22:31 GMT
You have to feel sorry for Vokes, When he has trouble breathing just putting his socks on.
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Post by theonlooker on May 8, 2021 7:31:50 GMT
This season end for us is frustrating. Makes me want to commit a senseless act.
Indeed, buy a Season Ticket...
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Post by dirtclod on May 8, 2021 17:44:27 GMT
This season end for us is frustrating. Makes me want to commit a senseless act.
Indeed, buy a Season Ticket...
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Post by baystokie on May 8, 2021 21:38:22 GMT
I will never understand the fitness argument. I just won’t. This is their job. They have to play twice a week max. As someone correctly pointed out, there are a whole host of other sports, including tennis, rugby and cycling where the physical toll on the individuals is so much worse. Footballers have it easy and I’ll never not be convinced otherwise. Yes, if you ever watch Rafa Nadal and Novak Djokovic trading blows on the clay in the suffocating heat in the French Open in Paris for the thick end of 5 hours having played every other day for a fortnight leading up to it you know what real fitness looks like! It makes pissing about on the grass for 90 minutes 3 times a fortnight with 22 other blokes look like a picnic. Tennis players play in short 10 second burst of energy (aprt from the odd rally) and rarely need to run any long distances. They also don't have their opponents trying their best to nobble their feet, legs, knees, thighs and other body parts as an accepted part of the sport. Tennis players also have a number of periodic refreshment breaks between games and sets. I have no idea whatsoever of the physical requirements for top flight footballers, rugby players, cricketers, golfers. cyclists etc so how the hell would I|think I am in a position to have anything worthwhile to say about it?
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 8, 2021 22:06:54 GMT
Yes, if you ever watch Rafa Nadal and Novak Djokovic trading blows on the clay in the suffocating heat in the French Open in Paris for the thick end of 5 hours having played every other day for a fortnight leading up to it you know what real fitness looks like! It makes pissing about on the grass for 90 minutes 3 times a fortnight with 22 other blokes look like a picnic. Tennis players play in short 10 second burst of energy (aprt from the odd rally) and rarely need to run any long distances. They also don't have their opponents trying their best to nobble their feet, legs, knees, thighs and other body parts as an accepted part of the sport. Tennis players also have a number of periodic refreshment breaks between games and sets. I have no idea whatsoever of the physical requirements for top flight footballers, rugby players, cricketers, golfers. cyclists etc so how the hell would I|think I am in a position to have anything worthwhile to say about it? And it’s not like it’s just us on about it. All managers and players moan about it. And they’re not doing it because they’re bored. The ease at which it is dismissed makes me smile. It’s clearly a thing and it clearly affects sides. They’re generally not being primadonnas or lazy or any of that crap. I do think we’re not as fit as most sides. But we’re going to be tired with the schedule and the lack of rotation. It’s a valid moan but I don’t think MON has done anything to alleviate it.
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Post by gawa on May 8, 2021 22:27:24 GMT
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Post by potterburt on May 8, 2021 22:27:36 GMT
Yes, if you ever watch Rafa Nadal and Novak Djokovic trading blows on the clay in the suffocating heat in the French Open in Paris for the thick end of 5 hours having played every other day for a fortnight leading up to it you know what real fitness looks like! It makes pissing about on the grass for 90 minutes 3 times a fortnight with 22 other blokes look like a picnic. Tennis players play in short 10 second burst of energy (aprt from the odd rally) and rarely need to run any long distances. They also don't have their opponents trying their best to nobble their feet, legs, knees, thighs and other body parts as an accepted part of the sport. Tennis players also have a number of periodic refreshment breaks between games and sets. I have no idea whatsoever of the physical requirements for top flight footballers, rugby players, cricketers, golfers. cyclists etc so how the hell would I|think I am in a position to have anything worthwhile to say about it? Bolloxxxxxxxx!!! 10 second bursts of energy???? You evidently don’t like tennis, never been near it, played it and automatically dismiss it. Tennis involves more constant footwork and movement for long swathes of play with constant consistent concentration. While sprinting to a sudden stop, twisting, adjusting, adapting and trying to analyse and over come a game strategy from your opponent. The fact that you’ve mentioned cricketers and golfers within the same realms of ‘sports fitness’ compared to football, rugby and tennis is dubious and then after all of that, then just signing off in saying that you are in ‘no position to say anything about it’... 🤔
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