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Post by benjaminbiscuit on May 27, 2021 7:48:30 GMT
Dear me. Loyal to a fault. By rights, the whole lot should go. If I were Denise I'd be having stern words with her brother and I'd be placing her husband in temporary charge whilst I searched for a competent football person to run the football club. 106% wages to revenue? Seriously? I know you have to back your managers but christ, at what point does a competent CEO stop it all? When does a competent owner step in and say enough is enough? Seriously, if we get away with this three card trick we've done well. Expect a serious sanction incoming. No way will the other clubs rollover and allow that to happen. They will be queueing up to put the knife in. First for those who say we be better without them thanks again to the Family another £45M and counting quite staggering 100% agree on your view though id see a incoming sanction as the minimum now lets be honest we've used Covid to try and cover up years and years of chronic football financial and football mismanagement and wed be screaming for sanctions if it was one of the other 23 in our league , compared to say Sheff wed there's is a traffic magistrates decision v a full old bailey trial it will be interesting to see the reaction when the shit hits the fan as this one we can't blame on the manager
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Post by theonlooker on May 27, 2021 7:53:04 GMT
Dear me. Loyal to a fault. By rights, the whole lot should go. If I were Denise I'd be having stern words with her brother and I'd be placing her husband in temporary charge whilst I searched for a competent football person to run the football club. 106% wages to revenue? Seriously? I know you have to back your managers but christ, at what point does a competent CEO stop it all? When does a competent owner step in and say enough is enough? Seriously, if we get away with this three card trick we've done well. Expect a serious sanction incoming. No way will the other clubs rollover and allow that to happen. They will be queueing up to put the knife in. First for those who say we be better without them thanks again to the Family another £45M and counting quite staggering 100% agree on your view though id see a incoming sanction as the minimum now lets be honest we've used Covid to try and cover up years and years of chronic football financial and football mismanagement and wed be screaming for sanctions if it was one of the other 23 in our league , compared to say Sheff wed there's is a traffic magistrates decision v a full old bailey trial it will be interesting to see the reaction when the shit hits the fan as this one we can't blame on the manager Thanks to the family? They've put us in this mess. Chucking bad money after good money is not good ownership. It's absolutely dreadful.
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87M Loss
May 27, 2021 7:59:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2021 7:59:02 GMT
The dong is starting to shrivel up. It has been cold this month. These numbers are horrendous. Perhaps it's a good time to try to bury bad news (in amongst numerous other club's bad news). £30m in player write-downs because of COVID? I think they call it creative accounting.
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Post by thebet365 on May 27, 2021 8:18:43 GMT
So in relation to FFP how screwed are we? We're allowed to lose 39 Million over 3 seasons, we're currently sitting at 63.466 Million losses (after covid exemptions) over 2 seasons so unless we make a 24.466 Milllion profit in May 21 accounts I can't see how we'll avoid sanctions at the end of next season.
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 27, 2021 8:28:29 GMT
So in relation to FFP how screwed are we? We're allowed to lose 39 Million over 3 seasons, we're currently sitting at 63.466 Million losses (after covid exemptions) over 2 seasons so unless we make a 24.466 Milllion profit in May 21 accounts I can't see how we'll avoid sanctions at the end of next season. £15m Campbell £12m Collins £10m Souttar £10m Bursik Sorted.........
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Post by thebet365 on May 27, 2021 8:34:11 GMT
We're allowed to lose 39 Million over 3 seasons, we're currently sitting at 63.466 Million losses (after covid exemptions) over 2 seasons so unless we make a 24.466 Milllion profit in May 21 accounts I can't see how we'll avoid sanctions at the end of next season. £15m Campbell £12m Collins £10m Souttar £10m Bursik Sorted......... Winner..... We've got 4 days to get the deals done That's if the transfer window is even open
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Post by LGH87 on May 27, 2021 8:36:27 GMT
So in relation to FFP how screwed are we? We're allowed to lose 39 Million over 3 seasons, we're currently sitting at 63.466 Million losses (after covid exemptions) over 2 seasons so unless we make a 24.466 Milllion profit in May 21 accounts I can't see how we'll avoid sanctions at the end of next season. Promotion Joking aside, is there anyone on here who has a real grasp of what these figures mean, where we stand and what we will need to do?
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87M Loss
May 27, 2021 8:45:34 GMT
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Post by followyoudown on May 27, 2021 8:45:34 GMT
So in relation to FFP how screwed are we? We're allowed to lose 39 Million over 3 seasons, we're currently sitting at 63.466 Million losses (after covid exemptions) over 2 seasons so unless we make a 24.466 Milllion profit in May 21 accounts I can't see how we'll avoid sanctions at the end of next season. Any sanctions will happen this season we are allowed £35m loss for the last premier league season plus two £13m losses for the championship so the £15.3m loss for last premier league season helps take us well over the £61m but a breach of £17m might only be a fine this year, hard to see how they start deducting points or relegating teams as otherwise league 1 will end up with 30+ teams next season or half the championship starts on minus points.
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87M Loss
May 27, 2021 8:48:00 GMT
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Post by followyoudown on May 27, 2021 8:48:00 GMT
The dong is starting to shrivel up. It has been cold this month. These numbers are horrendous. Perhaps it's a good time to try to bury bad news (in amongst numerous other club's bad news). £30m in player write-downs because of COVID? I think they call it creative accounting. Not at all they have to be backed up some like Afobe we had a fee agreed with Bristol City, others like Ince you could make arguments we would normally have expected to get a fee of £3-£4m from some suckers.
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87M Loss
May 27, 2021 8:59:40 GMT
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Post by yyy on May 27, 2021 8:59:40 GMT
Could be really good news. If we are allowed to avoid FFP penalties then we mustbhsve pretty much written off most of the accounting value of our squad. We need to see the detail but it should make it much easier to move players on over the summer Yes, hopefully the ones we need and can move on are the ones of no value to us, that's a worrying figure that will interest a few vultures
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 27, 2021 9:03:37 GMT
Could be really good news. If we are allowed to avoid FFP penalties then we mustbhsve pretty much written off most of the accounting value of our squad. We need to see the detail but it should make it much easier to move players on over the summer Yes, hopefully the ones we need and can move on are the ones of no value to us, that's a worrying figure that will interest a few vultures The reality is that we're going to be a selling club like most clubs outside the top clubs. That's going to be our way out of this. We just need to do what clubs like Southampton and Norwich and to an extent Brentford have done in different ways by having a supply line of the next talent ready to go. Not convinced we have the structure in place for that to happen.
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87M Loss
May 27, 2021 9:05:00 GMT
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Post by thehoof on May 27, 2021 9:05:00 GMT
It has been cold this month. These numbers are horrendous. Perhaps it's a good time to try to bury bad news (in amongst numerous other club's bad news). £30m in player write-downs because of COVID? I think they call it creative accounting. Not at all they have to be backed up some like Afobe we had a fee agreed with Bristol City, others like Ince you could make arguments we would normally have expected to get a fee of £3-£4m from some suckers. The write downs have to be specifically as a result of COVID related issues; how much of a write down is a moot point. Implicit in the write downs is an assumption that Stoke would have received some money and would have been able to move on the players that the write downs relate to; in no circumstance is that an actual fact. TS is trying to make use of the rules, no argument with that, however don’t think that the value ascribed to the impairment reviews is simply an acceptable given. I hope that discussion has taken place with relevant EFL lawmakers, as there is definitely a chance that such large write downs may be questioned. As a simple question, I would ask which player other than Arnie have Stoke sold at a profit, or close to NBV, before ( as an authority of the EFL) simply accepting written down values.
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Post by thebet365 on May 27, 2021 9:05:39 GMT
We're allowed to lose 39 Million over 3 seasons, we're currently sitting at 63.466 Million losses (after covid exemptions) over 2 seasons so unless we make a 24.466 Milllion profit in May 21 accounts I can't see how we'll avoid sanctions at the end of next season. Any sanctions will happen this season we are allowed £35m loss for the last premier league season plus two £13m losses for the championship so the £15.3m loss for last premier league season helps take us well over the £61m but a breach of £17m might only be a fine this year, hard to see how they start deducting points or relegating teams as otherwise league 1 will end up with 30+ teams next season or half the championship starts on minus points. I Didn't realise we could use the premier league allowance, Didn't we lose near 32 million though in the final premier league accounts ? By my rough reckoning we're sitting on 94 million losses over the 3 seasons against an allowed 61 Million. At least now we've written so much off Ammortisation is down to 5 Mill max, next problem is the hefty wage bill.
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87M Loss
May 27, 2021 9:17:37 GMT
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Post by followyoudown on May 27, 2021 9:17:37 GMT
Any sanctions will happen this season we are allowed £35m loss for the last premier league season plus two £13m losses for the championship so the £15.3m loss for last premier league season helps take us well over the £61m but a breach of £17m might only be a fine this year, hard to see how they start deducting points or relegating teams as otherwise league 1 will end up with 30+ teams next season or half the championship starts on minus points. I Didn't realise we could use the premier league allowance, Didn't we lose near 32 million though in the final premier league accounts ? By my rough reckoning we're sitting on 94 million losses over the 3 seasons against an allowed 61 Million. At least now we've written so much off Ammortisation is down to 5 Mill max, next problem is the hefty wage bill. Yes you are right I am going cross eyed £15.3m was 2019, yeah £33m over probably into points deduction territory perhaps they are aiming to take it next season on the expectation several other clubs will be in same position.
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andyj
Spectator
Posts: 27
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87M Loss
May 27, 2021 9:20:48 GMT
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Post by andyj on May 27, 2021 9:20:48 GMT
I don’t doubt this was agreed with EFL prior to signing. It is probably going to be the way that a lot of clubs get around the restrictions in pandemic times. If it wasn’t, in what world would RSM have signed off on it? Football clubs are quite big risks for accounting firms due to the potential for backlash. I don’t see this being too much to worry about, other than that if people think we are gonna be making any £10m signings any time soon I wouldn’t bank on it 😂
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87M Loss
May 27, 2021 9:32:18 GMT
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Post by yyy on May 27, 2021 9:32:18 GMT
Yes, hopefully the ones we need and can move on are the ones of no value to us, that's a worrying figure that will interest a few vultures The reality is that we're going to be a selling club like most clubs outside the top clubs. That's going to be our way out of this. We just need to do what clubs like Southampton and Norwich and to an extent Brentford have done in different ways by having a supply line of the next talent ready to go. Not convinced we have the structure in place for that to happen. Neither am I, we need to keep these promising players if we are serious about getting up, I don't trust we have the transfer nouse to replace top prospects with ready made first teamers that are capable of taking us up, our history on transfers also suggests that, we are absolutely clueless when it comes to bringing in ready made first team players. Another thing that bothers me is our reported interest in lower level players and possible new strategy of now bringing in lower level players for first team spots, especially given we can't even suss the wheat from the chaff with other first team signings from our level and above. Suddenly it looks like we are aiming to be failures in signing the right goods from Sainsburys to masters of sorting the wheat from the chaff below, sign enough duds from lower level and we will become lower level. It's essential we keep our best younger players imo, without them we are not going anywhere but holding water or worse on evidence of recent first team signings. We have a good crop coming through like man utd did, we should be copying this model and growing them as a team, together
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Post by crouchpotato1 on May 27, 2021 9:40:38 GMT
One thing this might do on here is stop the fuckin ridiculous threads about players(who we have zero chance of signing due to this ie Mowatt etc) and also make some realise what conditions the manager is working under Next season will be much of the same with survival being the main aim and especially if there’s a points deduction
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 27, 2021 9:42:46 GMT
The reality is that we're going to be a selling club like most clubs outside the top clubs. That's going to be our way out of this. We just need to do what clubs like Southampton and Norwich and to an extent Brentford have done in different ways by having a supply line of the next talent ready to go. Not convinced we have the structure in place for that to happen. Neither am I, we need to keep these promising players if we are serious about getting up, I don't trust we have the transfer nouse to replace top prospects with ready made first teamers that are capable of taking us up, our history on transfers also suggests that, we are absolutely clueless when it comes to bringing in ready made first team players. Another thing that bothers me is our reported interest in lower level players and possible new strategy of now bringing in lower level players for first team spots, especially given we can't even suss the wheat from the chaff with other first team signings from our level and above. Suddenly it looks like we are aiming to be failures in signing the right goods from Sainsburys to masters of sorting the wheat from the chaff below, sign enough duds from lower level and we will become lower level. It's essential we keep our best younger players imo, without them we are not going anywhere but holding water or worse on evidence of recent first team signings. We have a good crop coming through like man utd did, we should be copying this model and growing them as a team, together I don't think they're invariably going to be duds just because they're lower level though? Signing 'proven' names who were past-it or hadn't got that hunger has contributed to us being in this mess, we absolutely do need to be identifying the young, hungry next level of talent on the rise. I don't think keeping our young stars is realistic really. All clubs, even ones in better positions, need to sell the odd one or two of their stars now and then. We talk about being a well-run club, but that's what actual well-run clubs do. Plus once a player's head's turned it's very hard to hold onto them, and their heads are going to be turned if a Prem club comes in, almost certainly.
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 27, 2021 9:46:17 GMT
One thing this might do on here is stop the fuckin ridiculous threads about players(who we have zero chance of signing due to this ie Mowatt etc) and also make some realise what conditions the manager is working under Next season will be much of the same with survival being the main aim and especially if there’s a points deduction I'd be happy to see our exciting crop of youngsters in and around the starting XI, the likes of Bursik, Collins, Souttar, Doughty and Campbell starting week in week out and some potential gems from League One. Yes that will mean a bumpy ride along the way but we can't turn back time, what we can do is get the club back on sound footings and see a team that will make us proud again........
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87M Loss
May 27, 2021 9:50:56 GMT
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Post by yyy on May 27, 2021 9:50:56 GMT
Neither am I, we need to keep these promising players if we are serious about getting up, I don't trust we have the transfer nouse to replace top prospects with ready made first teamers that are capable of taking us up, our history on transfers also suggests that, we are absolutely clueless when it comes to bringing in ready made first team players. Another thing that bothers me is our reported interest in lower level players and possible new strategy of now bringing in lower level players for first team spots, especially given we can't even suss the wheat from the chaff with other first team signings from our level and above. Suddenly it looks like we are aiming to be failures in signing the right goods from Sainsburys to masters of sorting the wheat from the chaff below, sign enough duds from lower level and we will become lower level. It's essential we keep our best younger players imo, without them we are not going anywhere but holding water or worse on evidence of recent first team signings. We have a good crop coming through like man utd did, we should be copying this model and growing them as a team, together I don't think they're invariably going to be duds just because they're lower level though? Signing 'proven' names who were past-it or hadn't got that hunger has contributed to us being in this mess, we absolutely do need to be identifying the young, hungry next level of talent on the rise. I don't think keeping our young stars is realistic really. All clubs, even ones in better positions, need to sell the odd one or two of their stars now and then. We talk about being a well-run club, but that's what actual well-run clubs do. Plus once a player's head's turned it's very hard to hold onto them, and their heads are going to be turned if a Prem club comes in, almost certainly. What I mean is that with the money and wage structure we had available to us we couldn't even bring in the right quality to make us contenders but now we think we can do it from a smaller pool? I don't think that's a well run club, selling your promising youth that could leave you for a pittance of what they could be worth in 2 to 3 years. I genuinely believe we can challenge next season if we can hold onto what we have going good for us and add to it. This crop we have coming through might be a flash in the pan, we have zero evidence its a regular thing. To sell them could take us back 5 years or more
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87M Loss
May 27, 2021 9:51:08 GMT
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Post by northernstokie on May 27, 2021 9:51:08 GMT
Is there a limit to what the owners can lend as 46m seems a lot higher than I imagined. If they for instance lent us 100m the books would look a lot better or is that not possible?
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87M Loss
May 27, 2021 9:56:12 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 27, 2021 9:56:12 GMT
Dear me. Loyal to a fault. By rights, the whole lot should go. If I were Denise I'd be having stern words with her brother and I'd be placing her husband in temporary charge whilst I searched for a competent football person to run the football club. 106% wages to revenue? Seriously? I know you have to back your managers but christ, at what point does a competent CEO stop it all? When does a competent owner step in and say enough is enough? Seriously, if we get away with this three card trick we've done well. Expect a serious sanction incoming. No way will the other clubs rollover and allow that to happen. They will be queueing up to put the knife in. That was the exact rate if memory serves me right for the season we got promoted. Just interesting.....maybe 😂
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on May 27, 2021 9:56:13 GMT
I don't think they're invariably going to be duds just because they're lower level though? Signing 'proven' names who were past-it or hadn't got that hunger has contributed to us being in this mess, we absolutely do need to be identifying the young, hungry next level of talent on the rise. I don't think keeping our young stars is realistic really. All clubs, even ones in better positions, need to sell the odd one or two of their stars now and then. We talk about being a well-run club, but that's what actual well-run clubs do. Plus once a player's head's turned it's very hard to hold onto them, and their heads are going to be turned if a Prem club comes in, almost certainly. What I mean is that with the money and wage structure we had available to us we couldn't even bring in the right quality to make us contenders but now we think we can do it from a smaller pool? I don't think that's a well run club, selling your promising youth that could leave you for a pittance of what they could be worth in 2 to 3 years. I genuinely believe we can challenge next season if we can hold onto what we have going good for us and add to it. This crop we have coming through might be a flash in the pan, we have zero evidence its a regular thing. To sell them could take us back 5 years or more We're really in a position to both hold onto them and add to it though are we? That's the problem. I take your point about there not being the evidence we could successfully replace them in the current set up, but we're in a catch-22. It's a shit show. I wouldn't sell them all now, but if we got a good offer for, say, Collins, that did allow us a bit of flexibility, it's probably the best for all concerned.
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87M Loss
May 27, 2021 9:57:29 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 27, 2021 9:57:29 GMT
One thing this might do on here is stop the fuckin ridiculous threads about players(who we have zero chance of signing due to this ie Mowatt etc) and also make some realise what conditions the manager is working under Next season will be much of the same with survival being the main aim and especially if there’s a points deduction And hopefully it will make others why we had to get promoted this season.
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Post by jeycov on May 27, 2021 10:03:58 GMT
One thing this might do on here is stop the fuckin ridiculous threads about players(who we have zero chance of signing due to this ie Mowatt etc) and also make some realise what conditions the manager is working under Next season will be much of the same with survival being the main aim and especially if there’s a points deduction I really wonder if MON had all the details of our financial situation I also hope he stays
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Post by theonlooker on May 27, 2021 10:09:10 GMT
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87M Loss
May 27, 2021 10:09:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2021 10:09:32 GMT
It has been cold this month. These numbers are horrendous. Perhaps it's a good time to try to bury bad news (in amongst numerous other club's bad news). £30m in player write-downs because of COVID? I think they call it creative accounting. Not at all they have to be backed up some like Afobe we had a fee agreed with Bristol City, others like Ince you could make arguments we would normally have expected to get a fee of £3-£4m from some suckers. £3m-£4m for Ince? Come on. The fact is, you could write on the back of a postage stamp, the players that we 'could' have got a fee for during the pandemic, but our hands we're tied. I dread to think what these numbers would look like, if we were not trying to play the system.
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87M Loss
May 27, 2021 10:11:14 GMT
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Post by cdf on May 27, 2021 10:11:14 GMT
If the family wanted to throw a big whack of dough into the club again would one way around ffp be saying that they are sponsoring the front of the shirts this season for £42 million?
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Post by FullerMagic on May 27, 2021 10:27:57 GMT
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Post by thebet365 on May 27, 2021 10:33:55 GMT
If the family wanted to throw a big whack of dough into the club again would one way around ffp be saying that they are sponsoring the front of the shirts this season for £42 million? No
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