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Post by stokeyank on May 28, 2021 14:30:27 GMT
Summary, Michael O'Neil has no money to spend but we won't breach FFP.
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Post by heworksardtho on May 28, 2021 14:40:02 GMT
Like someone said earlier if you run a business and you have the money to invest then why can’t you, why can’t the EFL see if the owners are billionaires or multimillionaires then who are they to say you can’t spend the cash , if Starbucks etc were run this way they would have 5 shops only in the U.K.
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87M Loss
May 28, 2021 14:46:14 GMT
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Post by Milkie on May 28, 2021 14:46:14 GMT
What would have happened if the ownership structure was reversed, Bet 365 was a wholly owned subsidiary of SCFC, could the Bet 365 profits be utilised by SCFC? I’m clearly no accountant, just trying to understand what would have stopped us setting up with SCFC as the senior business and would their have been benefits of us adopting this structure?
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Post by lordb on May 28, 2021 14:46:28 GMT
Summary, Michael O'Neil has no money to spend but we won't breach FFP. that looks like the size of it summer 2022 should be massively better supporter expectations for 2021/22 season will be whatever but Coates family expectations will surely be happy to accept mid table again
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Post by chiswickpotter on May 28, 2021 14:47:17 GMT
That isn’t true. A large number of clubs are firm supporters of FFP. In the Championship clubs like Bristol City and Millwall I believe. Without wealthy owners it makes perfect sense for them to support it. Looking at Stoke City’s finances, it is hard to argue some firm of financial regulation is required to ensure the game remains sustainable. The question is what approach? When we were in the PL we voted in support of limits on wage rises. Everyone recognises there needs to be some limit on spending. Our problem is not FFP, it is the vast amounts of money we have spent on failed transfers - we have written off £70 million at least My post was written in a satirical manner, but the amount of support for FFP is up for debate, I would respectfully argue that it IS true. Those clubs (probably including ours) are firm supporters of PARITY. FFP has become something that doesn't even resemble parity. Regardless of the intent, the result of FFP has been a widening of the chasm between the Premier League and the Championship. And the way FFP has been managed - it is now an accelerant to a club's downfall. While Sheffield Wednesday created a lot of their own problems, in what way did that points reduction which sent them down to League 1 help them? I guess I see where it helped Derby, but they are a fellow violator. Even with FFP in place if an idiot wants to mismanage a club into oblivion, FFP hasn't prevented it. It's never a good idea to let someone else run your OWN business from some outside entity, that is equivalent to nationalism. It's already been discussed on here how several promoted teams have ignored FFP to get to the promised land, knowing that once in the PL they are out from under the jurisdiction of the EFL. So it's not working other than to keep clubs down that try to play by the rules. I agree with you on PARITY and the fact that there needs to be some limit on spending. Also, the main problem at our club is that we've bought Yugos at Ferrari prices. I think something ELSE needs to be put into place that actually works to increase parity between teams. Maybe the point is that FFP as unfair as it is has actually saved some teams (Including ours) from themselves? Edit: While my earlier post contained a lot of shenanigans, at the very least the League should be open to discussion on how to better manage league parity and prevent the "piling on" of economic sanctions onto teams that are already in financial trouble. . I agree on parity but that’s not due to FFP. FFP has little impact on the gap between the PL and the rest. We were able to spend to our heart’s content and it was only because we did it so badly that we are where we are. The gap is partly due to the huge commercial power of some clubs and the richness of certain owners (who are limited by FFP to an extent) and partly to the way TV revenue is distributed. If the aim is parity, then you need FFP, salary caps, proper monitoring and an independent regulator to keep everyone honest. And probably other things like a break of the PL Control of Academies and the loan system
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Post by salfordstokie on May 28, 2021 14:55:56 GMT
Sounds like the FFP rules - which we may just stay on the right side of - will mean limited investment in the summer and player sales to generate funds. It's all about getting through this next season and moving forward from 2022. Any hopes of a play-off push can be forgotten I think.
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Post by robwahlmann on May 28, 2021 14:59:13 GMT
Summary, Michael O'Neil has no money to spend but we won't breach FFP. If we get rid of more deadwood and maybe even can sell some like Allen, Clucas and McClean, would that give MON some money to spend?
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87M Loss
May 28, 2021 15:07:37 GMT
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Post by cobhamstokey on May 28, 2021 15:07:37 GMT
Sounds like the FFP rules - which we may just stay on the right side of - will mean limited investment in the summer and player sales to generate funds. It's all about getting through this next season and moving forward from 2022. Any hopes of a play-off push can be forgotten I think. could be worse then. If we get in some good loans and freebies then we can be competitive. We’re only 2-3 players away from being a good side if players stay injury free Bursic Smith Collins Soutter Fox Mikel CM Dougherty Powell Campbell CF (Delap please)
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Post by dirtclod on May 28, 2021 15:18:59 GMT
Well that was quite a read! And if it comes to selling the stadium and assessing the valuation. Over & above normal depreciation, you can't tell me that stadium is worth anywhere near what it was pre-pandemic. The quarantines have eliminated gate & other sale-revenue to offset expenses to maintain it. And there is still a future risk of quarantines. This erodes the property value and is directly attributable to Covid.
Lawyers could argue that this is yet another Covid-related cost? (If they already haven't)
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87M Loss
May 28, 2021 15:20:00 GMT
via mobile
Post by salfordstokie on May 28, 2021 15:20:00 GMT
Sounds like the FFP rules - which we may just stay on the right side of - will mean limited investment in the summer and player sales to generate funds. It's all about getting through this next season and moving forward from 2022. Any hopes of a play-off push can be forgotten I think. could be worse then. If we get in some good loans and freebies then we can be competitive. We’re only 2-3 players away from being a good side if players stay injury free Bursic Smith Collins Soutter Fox Mikel CM Dougherty Powell Campbell CF (Delap please) I think that's the problem though. In order to spend some of our better players will have to be sold. The likes of Collins, Clucas or Souttar may go and we might need some good recruitment just to stand still. I think a top half finish would be a strong season.
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87M Loss
May 28, 2021 15:25:11 GMT
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Post by Staffsoatcake on May 28, 2021 15:25:11 GMT
I realy don't understand the legality of what's going on with our debt and FFP.
Are we in any serious trouble of having a points deduction or not?
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87M Loss
May 28, 2021 15:29:21 GMT
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Post by TrentValePotter96 on May 28, 2021 15:29:21 GMT
I think there are two issues here.
The first is the FFP. I don't think the rules are fit for purpose and maybe its right that somebody should be able to spend to improve their team.
The second, and for me more pressing is the running of the club. Its shit. It's down to the chief executive who shouldn't be in the role, but who is responsible for him? I've seen nothing in the three years since relegation (a complete unnecessary disaster imo) to suggest our owners are up to it anymore. They don't get a free pass just because Bet365 creates jobs or they give to charity.
It's not just pumping money in. They can own the club, they can fund it, but they *'must* get new people in to help run it. Not make it a family business. There are better run clubs out there who would kill for some of the resources we have.
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Post by Bojan Mackey on May 28, 2021 15:34:38 GMT
I think there are two issues here. The first is the FFP. I don't think the rules are fit for purpose and maybe its right that somebody should be able to spend to improve their team. The second, and for me more pressing is the running of the club. Its shit. It's down to the chief executive who shouldn't be in the role, but who is responsible for him? I've seen nothing in the three years since relegation (a complete unnecessary disaster imo) to suggest our owners are up to it anymore. They don't get a free pass just because Bet365 creates jobs or they give to charity. It's not just pumping money in. They can own the club, they can fund it, but they *'must* get new people in to help run it. Not make it a family business. There are better run clubs out there who would kill for some of the resources we have. Can you imagine the Brentford model with our riches, we’d have to buy Vale Park and bulldoze it just to build a trophy room big enough to fit all our Champions Leagues in.
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Post by mtrstudent on May 28, 2021 15:35:13 GMT
Anyone who gets FFP...
It's done over 3 years right? Is there any rule about no repeat punishment for the same spending?
e.g. we realise 2019,20,21 seasons we'll break the rules and lose 12 points. So why not have Coatesy dump in £50 mil in 2021? Or will that still affect the 20/21/22 rules.
I assume this is a long shot.
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Post by mtrstudent on May 28, 2021 15:39:19 GMT
My post was written in a satirical manner, but the amount of support for FFP is up for debate, I would respectfully argue that it IS true. Those clubs (probably including ours) are firm supporters of PARITY. FFP has become something that doesn't even resemble parity. Regardless of the intent, the result of FFP has been a widening of the chasm between the Premier League and the Championship. And the way FFP has been managed - it is now an accelerant to a club's downfall. While Sheffield Wednesday created a lot of their own problems, in what way did that points reduction which sent them down to League 1 help them? I guess I see where it helped Derby, but they are a fellow violator. Even with FFP in place if an idiot wants to mismanage a club into oblivion, FFP hasn't prevented it. It's never a good idea to let someone else run your OWN business from some outside entity, that is equivalent to nationalism. It's already been discussed on here how several promoted teams have ignored FFP to get to the promised land, knowing that once in the PL they are out from under the jurisdiction of the EFL. So it's not working other than to keep clubs down that try to play by the rules. I agree with you on PARITY and the fact that there needs to be some limit on spending. Also, the main problem at our club is that we've bought Yugos at Ferrari prices. I think something ELSE needs to be put into place that actually works to increase parity between teams. Maybe the point is that FFP as unfair as it is has actually saved some teams (Including ours) from themselves? Edit: While my earlier post contained a lot of shenanigans, at the very least the League should be open to discussion on how to better manage league parity and prevent the "piling on" of economic sanctions onto teams that are already in financial trouble. . I agree on parity but that’s not due to FFP. FFP has little impact on the gap between the PL and the rest. We were able to spend to our heart’s content and it was only because we did it so badly that we are where we are. The gap is partly due to the huge commercial power of some clubs and the richness of certain owners (who are limited by FFP to an extent) and partly to the way TV revenue is distributed. If the aim is parity, then you need FFP, salary caps, proper monitoring and an independent regulator to keep everyone honest. And probably other things like a break of the PL Control of Academies and the loan system I think you're on the same page as me here. I'd be worried that if you break FFP, then it'll basically be a race between clubs with loads of income plus clubs that sell out to rich owners. We're very lucky to have local owners who give a shit. go Also, we did this to ourselves because we knew the rules and we fucked up. I know none of us want to have consequences when we fuck up, but the club shat the bed and I haven't seen any excuses that would justify escaping consequences for me. IMO the biggest issue is how income gets spread. Something to level out the spending more between clubs, including below the Prem, would really help football. But the biggest clubs have a lot of power and until their owners can be forced into voting in a good way we're screwed.
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Post by Kenilworth_Stokies on May 28, 2021 15:40:54 GMT
Interesting. Unless I'm reading that wrong, A) there's no danger of admin, and B) any potential punishment for FFP breaches won't happen for a couple of years. So, the real question is can we limp through the next season without much squad investment, until we can get rid of the big costly contract deadwood in 2022. Then we have a little window to return to financial sanity and see if we can invest a bit more wisely in the interim, before any FFP sanctions might be considered.
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Post by dirtclod on May 28, 2021 16:16:21 GMT
My post was written in a satirical manner, but the amount of support for FFP is up for debate, I would respectfully argue that it IS true. Those clubs (probably including ours) are firm supporters of PARITY. FFP has become something that doesn't even resemble parity. Regardless of the intent, the result of FFP has been a widening of the chasm between the Premier League and the Championship. And the way FFP has been managed - it is now an accelerant to a club's downfall. While Sheffield Wednesday created a lot of their own problems, in what way did that points reduction which sent them down to League 1 help them? I guess I see where it helped Derby, but they are a fellow violator. Even with FFP in place if an idiot wants to mismanage a club into oblivion, FFP hasn't prevented it. It's never a good idea to let someone else run your OWN business from some outside entity, that is equivalent to nationalism. It's already been discussed on here how several promoted teams have ignored FFP to get to the promised land, knowing that once in the PL they are out from under the jurisdiction of the EFL. So it's not working other than to keep clubs down that try to play by the rules. I agree with you on PARITY and the fact that there needs to be some limit on spending. Also, the main problem at our club is that we've bought Yugos at Ferrari prices. I think something ELSE needs to be put into place that actually works to increase parity between teams. Maybe the point is that FFP as unfair as it is has actually saved some teams (Including ours) from themselves? Edit: While my earlier post contained a lot of shenanigans, at the very least the League should be open to discussion on how to better manage league parity and prevent the "piling on" of economic sanctions onto teams that are already in financial trouble. . I agree on parity but that’s not due to FFP. FFP has little impact on the gap between the PL and the rest. We were able to spend to our heart’s content and it was only because we did it so badly that we are where we are. The gap is partly due to the huge commercial power of some clubs and the richness of certain owners (who are limited by FFP to an extent) and partly to the way TV revenue is distributed. If the aim is parity, then you need FFP, salary caps, proper monitoring and an independent regulator to keep everyone honest. And probably other things like a break of the PL Control of Academies and the loan systemSpot on - given that scenario then FFP would be just another tool to protect clubs from themselves.
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87M Loss
May 28, 2021 16:31:13 GMT
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Post by sportsman on May 28, 2021 16:31:13 GMT
Who controls FFP? Where are their offices? Can't we just go down and threaten them? 😜
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Post by logdog on May 28, 2021 16:58:20 GMT
Maybe all the experts on here will begin to understand the shitty job our manager has on his hands, and it’s not getting easier any time soon. He said in an interview recently that he knew exactly what he was getting into, and felt his time in international management would stand him in good stead - not being able to sign/sell players etcetera. To take on such a huge job is to his credit I reckon. We need to get behind our boys this season. It’s going to be a slog.
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87M Loss
May 28, 2021 17:18:54 GMT
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Post by yyy on May 28, 2021 17:18:54 GMT
In short we are going nowhere soon but if anywhere, downwards.
When we can add to push for promotion the chances are our better younger players will be lining up for a different club
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Post by Goonie on May 28, 2021 18:16:56 GMT
Sounds like the FFP rules - which we may just stay on the right side of - will mean limited investment in the summer and player sales to generate funds. It's all about getting through this next season and moving forward from 2022. Any hopes of a play-off push can be forgotten I think. Yep. Best: scrape the playoffs Worse: relegation battle But this is football, so we could romp the league or be bottom of the table!
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87M Loss
May 28, 2021 18:25:57 GMT
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Post by stokecitytalke on May 28, 2021 18:25:57 GMT
Interesting. Unless I'm reading that wrong, A) there's no danger of admin, and B) any potential punishment for FFP breaches won't happen for a couple of years. So, the real question is can we limp through the next season without much squad investment, until we can get rid of the big costly contract deadwood in 2022. Then we have a little window to return to financial sanity and see if we can invest a bit more wisely in the interim, before any FFP sanctions might be considered. That's how I see it too.
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87M Loss
May 28, 2021 22:01:36 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 28, 2021 22:01:36 GMT
Maybe all the experts on here will begin to understand the shitty job our manager has on his hands, and it’s not getting easier any time soon. He said in an interview recently that he knew exactly what he was getting into, and felt his time in international management would stand him in good stead - not being able to sign/sell players etcetera. To take on such a huge job is to his credit I reckon. We need to get behind our boys this season. It’s going to be a slog. He made the job much harder than he needed to and made us worse to watch from his first season for no good reason. This is no excuse for shit football. He’s lucky he has a job.
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87M Loss
May 28, 2021 22:20:00 GMT
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 28, 2021 22:20:00 GMT
Definitely not rotten to the core 😂🤦♂️
The owners are absolutely useless and have no idea how to run a football club. That is abundantly clear.
It’s a shame we need them more than ever because they are useless owners whose only plan is to throw money at a problem and hope for the best.
It’s pathetic.
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Post by boskampsflaps on May 28, 2021 22:37:16 GMT
Summary, Michael O'Neil has no money to spend but we won't breach FFP. that looks like the size of it summer 2022 should be massively better
supporter expectations for 2021/22 season will be whatever but Coates family expectations will surely be happy to accept mid table again People keep saying this but I don't see it, yes there will be a lot of players gone but we still won't be able to spend overly big sums, ffp will still be about and the tv money will be tiny.
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87M Loss
May 29, 2021 0:32:55 GMT
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Post by generationex on May 29, 2021 0:32:55 GMT
Definitely not rotten to the core 😂🤦♂️ The owners are absolutely useless and have no idea how to run a football club. That is abundantly clear. It’s a shame we need them more than ever because they are useless owners whose only plan is to throw money at a problem and hope for the best. It’s pathetic. God help us when they stop throwing money at our club. Before relegation this board supported them without question on the basis that ‘they made a billion from bet365 so I think they know what they’re doing’. Now it’s just the daughter that’s a genius. Their managerial appointments post Pulis are poor or worse but it’s only their money that can prevent the incompetence since 2015 from turning the club into Portsmouth Mark 2.
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Post by Sfance on May 29, 2021 1:39:26 GMT
For the life of me, I don't understand why some people think that this is a one-time problem that we just have to muck through and then we're on the other side and everything starts to go rosy again. Really? Who was it said "lessons learned" and when did they say it? And are they all as stupid as they seem, or were they just lying through their teeth? Take your pick. Either way, as long as Johnboy and Scholes are in charge, we will continue to lurch from crisis to crisis. It's not FFP that's the problem, is them two.
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Post by FullerMagic on May 29, 2021 7:12:43 GMT
www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9630957/AHEAD-GAME-Sean-Dyches-switch-Burnley-Crystal-Palace-hits-hitch-20m-bill.htmlPreston’s Peter Ridsdale and Stoke chief executive Tony Scholes have emerged as the main contenders to join the EFL Board in what could be an intriguing election for the Championship clubs next month.
The vacancy for a Championship representative on the Board has been created by the departure from Bristol City of chief executive Mark Ashton.
A second spot could become available as numerous clubs want to remove Derby chief executive Stephen Pearce due to alleged conflicts of interest, as previously revealed by Sportsmail.
Ridsdale and Scholes sit on opposing sides of the EFL’s ongoing Financial Fair Play debate, with the former very much in favour of restrictions and the latter wanting clubs to be given more freedom to spend as they see fit. So the outcome of the election could have significant ramifications for the future.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 29, 2021 7:26:17 GMT
Definitely not rotten to the core 😂🤦♂️ The owners are absolutely useless and have no idea how to run a football club. That is abundantly clear. It’s a shame we need them more than ever because they are useless owners whose only plan is to throw money at a problem and hope for the best. It’s pathetic. God help us when they stop throwing money at our club. Before relegation this board supported them without question on the basis that ‘they made a billion from bet365 so I think they know what they’re doing’. Now it’s just the daughter that’s a genius. Their managerial appointments post Pulis are poor or worse but it’s only their money that can prevent the incompetence since 2015 from turning the club into Portsmouth Mark 2. Now? That’s always been clear hasn’t it? This isn’t a sudden thing. We’re fucked with them and fucked without them. They need to change their ways sharpish but that’s been obvious for a long time and they haven’t bothered.
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Post by Billy the kid on May 29, 2021 7:42:35 GMT
www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9630957/AHEAD-GAME-Sean-Dyches-switch-Burnley-Crystal-Palace-hits-hitch-20m-bill.htmlPreston’s Peter Ridsdale and Stoke chief executive Tony Scholes have emerged as the main contenders to join the EFL Board in what could be an intriguing election for the Championship clubs next month.
The vacancy for a Championship representative on the Board has been created by the departure from Bristol City of chief executive Mark Ashton.
A second spot could become available as numerous clubs want to remove Derby chief executive Stephen Pearce due to alleged conflicts of interest, as previously revealed by Sportsmail.
Ridsdale and Scholes sit on opposing sides of the EFL’s ongoing Financial Fair Play debate, with the former very much in favour of restrictions and the latter wanting clubs to be given more freedom to spend as they see fit. So the outcome of the election could have significant ramifications for the future. Is this the same Peter Ridsale that borrowed money left right and centre trying to make Leeds one of the biggest clubs in Europe?
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