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Post by senojbor on Oct 26, 2020 15:46:43 GMT
Stats have not been good over the last few years whoever's been in charge. I think once we have our best midfield players up and running there will be enough quality in the team to have the edge over most teams in this league. The defence looks decent enough now and Soutter in particular.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2020 15:55:19 GMT
The following two paragraphs are taken from an Sentinel article today: Stoke’s average age in Nathan Jones’s final match in charge at Millwall, a year ago tomorrow, was 28.3 – and had cost more than £40m to put together.
In comparison, the average age against Brentford was 26.9 – and cost about £11m – despite the arrival of influential 33-year-old summer free agents John Obi Mikel and Steven Fletcher.I've always admired MON as a manager and I regarded Jones as being a man out of his depth. But even I am gob smacked when I see the stats above. I really hope that we get back to the Premier League before the rest of football wakes up to the full extent of the turnaround in our fortunes under MON It's a misleading comparison. Jones was not accountable for the majority of the 40M+ purchases. Rowett and Hughes were, Rowett especially. I don't understand why we must carry on illustrating what a huge failure Stoke were while managed by Jones. It's a fact. But Jones has proved he's still a good manager at Luton. O'Neill is doing well for us, but he hasn't actually achieved anything yet. What do you think he should have achieved by now? Should he have won the FA Cup last season? Late run for the play offs?
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Post by staffordstokiemad1 on Oct 26, 2020 15:57:40 GMT
A bit off topic but does anyone know the best place to get stats/data from current and past Stoke seasons? I fancy having a look at some of this stuff myself I found an old book out today, Stoke City 2006-2007 yearbook, had every game in stats, line ups, player stats and profiles and a ground guide with pictures. Was really good and full of stats. Tried to look around online if they did another one but it appears that was the only season they did it for. Brought back some memories of the Johan Boskamp and the Sammy Bangoura episode.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 26, 2020 16:05:30 GMT
A bit off topic but does anyone know the best place to get stats/data from current and past Stoke seasons? I fancy having a look at some of this stuff myself I found an old book out today, Stoke City 2006-2007 yearbook, had every game in stats, line ups, player stats and profiles and a ground guide with pictures. Was really good and full of stats. Tried to look around online if they did another one but it appears that was the only season they did it for. Brought back some memories of the Johan Boskamp and the Sammy Bangoura episode. I got mine free when I bought a season ticket. Think they must have overestimated the demand for it RRP is 20 quid on the back! which tbf for what is it seems fair but mad to think people would have spent that.
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Post by staffordstokiemad1 on Oct 26, 2020 16:09:00 GMT
I found an old book out today, Stoke City 2006-2007 yearbook, had every game in stats, line ups, player stats and profiles and a ground guide with pictures. Was really good and full of stats. Tried to look around online if they did another one but it appears that was the only season they did it for. Brought back some memories of the Johan Boskamp and the Sammy Bangoura episode. I got mine free when I bought a season ticket. Think they must have overestimated the demand for it RRP is 20 quid on the back! which tbf for what is it seems fair but mad to think people would have spent that. 😂 yes I think your correct, I won mine at the football in the community scheme so they definitely overestimated demand. What an odd season that was by the way. Adam Rooney hat-trick last day of the season.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 26, 2020 16:11:15 GMT
I got mine free when I bought a season ticket. Think they must have overestimated the demand for it RRP is 20 quid on the back! which tbf for what is it seems fair but mad to think people would have spent that. 😂 yes I think your correct, I won mine at the football in the community scheme so they definitely overestimated demand. What an odd season that was by the way. Adam Rooney hat-trick last day of the season. Very! Boskamp was left with 8/9 players wasn't he? My first away game was that season too, Coventry 2-1 win famous for notegate.
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Post by gingerninja on Oct 26, 2020 16:18:23 GMT
My worry is how long before O'Neill can start working with a even half decent budget to move us forward, 2 maybe 3 years?.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 26, 2020 16:22:14 GMT
My worry is how long before O'Neill can start working with a even half decent budget to move us forward, 2 maybe 3 years?. Does he need one? And it's anyone's guess how he'd do with it. Our best 2 managers in recent times (TP and Hughes) both did better with a limited budget. Now I know that's a poor way to judge it but it just flashes warning lights for me. But it would be nice to give him like 5m for one player! And the wage budget will still be one of the biggest in this league.
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Post by gingerninja on Oct 26, 2020 16:29:41 GMT
He probably doesn't, but I have heard he wanted Shankland & another player from Scotland for reasonable fees but FFP didn't allow.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 26, 2020 16:32:55 GMT
He probably doesn't, but I have heard he wanted Shankland & another player from Scotland for reasonable fees but FFP didn't allow. Good tbh. Campbell is better.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2020 16:47:01 GMT
It's a misleading comparison. Jones was not accountable for the majority of the 40M+ purchases. Rowett and Hughes were, Rowett especially. I don't understand why we must carry on illustrating what a huge failure Stoke were while managed by Jones. It's a fact. But Jones has proved he's still a good manager at Luton. O'Neill is doing well for us, but he hasn't actually achieved anything yet. What do you think he should have achieved by now? Should he have won the FA Cup last season? Late run for the play offs? Nonsense. I don't expect the manager to achieve anything for a while yet. Just make us proud of the team as it grows, especially with the younger players in it. If there's one thing I'd like him to achieve before too long, it's to integrate a Stoke lad into the first team.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Oct 26, 2020 17:02:56 GMT
My worry is how long before O'Neill can start working with a even half decent budget to move us forward, 2 maybe 3 years?. No more than 2 seasons if we stay in the Championship. If we get promoted this season (big IF of course) then the huge increase in our income would mean that the worst of our financial problems re FFP would be eliminated for next season. On the evidence so far, as bayern says, MON looks like a manger who can do well on a limited budget. However, I'm sure he can do even better on a bigger budget - I doubt he would ever make as many of the big mistakes Hughes did with his biggest buys. MON shares with Pulis a concern that the players he buys should have character (Or DNA as Pulis called it) as well as skill.
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Post by nott1 on Oct 26, 2020 17:13:36 GMT
It's a misleading comparison. Jones was not accountable for the majority of the 40M+ purchases. Rowett and Hughes were, Rowett especially. I don't understand why we must carry on illustrating what a huge failure Stoke were while managed by Jones. It's a fact. But Jones has proved he's still a good manager at Luton. O'Neill is doing well for us, but he hasn't actually achieved anything yet. I'd say that converting what looked like almost certain relegation to a mid table position by the end of his first (part) season, was a superb achievement, to be honest. I'd also say that getting the cost of the starting eleven down by almost £30 million in his first summer window whilst reducing the age average age significantly, is a much more impressive performance than Jones achieved. I didn't make my original post to try to belittle Jones (even though I do think he underachieved) but to show just how MON has turned things round at minimal financial outlay. He's also done it by using players (especially young players) who Jones just didn't rate and certainly didn't use. He didn't under achieve.....he was always useless!
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Oct 26, 2020 17:21:06 GMT
I'd say that converting what looked like almost certain relegation to a mid table position by the end of his first (part) season, was a superb achievement, to be honest. I'd also say that getting the cost of the starting eleven down by almost £30 million in his first summer window whilst reducing the age average age significantly, is a much more impressive performance than Jones achieved. I didn't make my original post to try to belittle Jones (even though I do think he underachieved) but to show just how MON has turned things round at minimal financial outlay. He's also done it by using players (especially young players) who Jones just didn't rate and certainly didn't use. He didn't under achieve.....he was always useless! I don't agree. He's done a decent job in his 2 spells at Luton - but the Stoke job was a step too far for him. Especially given the constraints of FFP.
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Post by nott1 on Oct 26, 2020 17:24:59 GMT
He didn't under achieve.....he was always useless! I don't agree. He's done a decent job in his 2 spells at Luton - but the Stoke job was a step too far for him. Especially given the constraints of FFP. He was always useless for us, and he had a good bunch of players at league two level who carried on pretty well without him after he left.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 5:37:11 GMT
I don't agree. He's done a decent job in his 2 spells at Luton - but the Stoke job was a step too far for him. Especially given the constraints of FFP. He was always useless for us, and he had a good bunch of players at league two level who carried on pretty well without him after he left. Not really. Luton was heading for relegation when he came back in and saved them. He's doing exactly as well for them as O'Neill is doing for us, according to the league table...
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Post by lawrieleslie on Oct 27, 2020 6:29:30 GMT
The following two paragraphs are taken from an Sentinel article today: Stoke’s average age in Nathan Jones’s final match in charge at Millwall, a year ago tomorrow, was 28.3 – and had cost more than £40m to put together.
In comparison, the average age against Brentford was 26.9 – and cost about £11m – despite the arrival of influential 33-year-old summer free agents John Obi Mikel and Steven Fletcher.I've always admired MON as a manager and I regarded Jones as being a man out of his depth. But even I am gob smacked when I see the stats above. I really hope that we get back to the Premier League before the rest of football wakes up to the full extent of the turnaround in our fortunes under MON It's a misleading comparison. Jones was not accountable for the majority of the 40M+ purchases. Rowett and Hughes were, Rowett especially. I don't understand why we must carry on illustrating what a huge failure Stoke were while managed by Jones. It's a fact. But Jones has proved he's still a good manager at Luton. O'Neill is doing well for us, but he hasn't actually achieved anything yet. Just avoiding relegation last season was a monumental achievement. When he arrived on 8 November we were bottom, 6 points adrift with 8 points from 15 games. With those statistics few teams had escaped relegation from the championship.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Oct 27, 2020 6:37:20 GMT
A bit off topic but does anyone know the best place to get stats/data from current and past Stoke seasons? I fancy having a look at some of this stuff myself Wikipedia has a comprehensive page for every season covering the last 120 years at least. Just google Stoke City season 1900-01 or which ever season you’re looking for and the data is amazing. As an example in 1889-90 we were dumped out of the FA Cup by Wolves in extraordinary circumstances. This third round tie was played in driving sleet and rain on a heavy pitch and Wolves more suited to the conditions easily won the match 4–0. Stoke protested over the state of the pitch and the FA ordered a re-match the following Saturday. This time Wolves doubled the score to 8–0 much to the embarrassment of the Stoke officials. The result is still Stoke's biggest defeat in the FA Cup.
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Post by nott1 on Oct 27, 2020 7:17:28 GMT
He was always useless for us, and he had a good bunch of players at league two level who carried on pretty well without him after he left. Not really. Luton was heading for relegation when he came back in and saved them. He's doing exactly as well for them as O'Neill is doing for us, according to the league table... Were they not promoted after he left and others credited for that?
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Post by ethers26 on Oct 27, 2020 7:34:52 GMT
Yeah but we were excellent between both boxes under Jones.
Just absolute wank in both boxes unfortunately.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 9:38:21 GMT
Not really. Luton was heading for relegation when he came back in and saved them. He's doing exactly as well for them as O'Neill is doing for us, according to the league table... Were they not promoted after he left and others credited for that? The fact that they wanted him back last season probably answers your question.
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Post by nott1 on Oct 27, 2020 9:43:17 GMT
Were they not promoted after he left and others credited for that? The fact that they wanted him back last season probably answers your question. They are very welcome to him!
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Post by fca47 on Oct 27, 2020 10:11:32 GMT
Can't see what the relevance of reducing the cost of the starting eleven by £30 million has got to do with anything. It's not as though we managed to recoup any of it. I agree he has done a decent job so far, but that's it.The fact we have signed loads of expensive free transfers masks the true cost of the squad and none of them will have any resale value. Both our former managers are level pegging with us with much cheaper squads. The horrendous recruitment of Hughes and Rowett is why we are where we are. MON has done a good job in sorting them out, but it's too early to judge him.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Oct 27, 2020 13:51:06 GMT
Can't see what the relevance of reducing the cost of the starting eleven by £30 million has got to do with anything. It's not as though we managed to recoup any of it. I agree he has done a decent job so far, but that's it.The fact we have signed loads of expensive free transfers masks the true cost of the squad and none of them will have any resale value. Both our former managers are level pegging with us with much cheaper squads. The horrendous recruitment of Hughes and Rowett is why we are where we are. MON has done a good job in sorting them out, but it's too early to judge him. No, we didn't recoup significant money on the players we chose not to use after Jones left. But the players MON used (who Jones rarely or never used) improved the squad and cost the club a lot less than the players they replaced. So MON picked players based mainly on what positive contribution they could make to our results whereas Jones seemed to base his picks on either reputation or the size of the fee paid for them. Obviously Jones insistence on playing the diamond even when he didn't have the players to make it work didn't help his results.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 17:25:18 GMT
Can't see what the relevance of reducing the cost of the starting eleven by £30 million has got to do with anything. It's not as though we managed to recoup any of it. I agree he has done a decent job so far, but that's it.The fact we have signed loads of expensive free transfers masks the true cost of the squad and none of them will have any resale value. Both our former managers are level pegging with us with much cheaper squads. The horrendous recruitment of Hughes and Rowett is why we are where we are. MON has done a good job in sorting them out, but it's too early to judge him. He hasn't even sorted them out, not really. He's just extended the banishment of our most expensive and unwilling to play here players. The exact same process occured under Jones, with much the same personnel, except he actually tried to integrate Etebo and N'dayie, whereas O'Neill, much like the Stoke supporters, couldn't wait to get rid. That suggests a fake success, because every time we allow a player to go out with limited or no fee and partial or full pay by ourselves, the closer we get to their contracts' expiry, which means we will eventually and finally be letting out of contract players go for nothing. There's nothing remotely successful about that.
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Oct 27, 2020 17:30:29 GMT
Statistically you have to score more than you let in and that's why Nathan is now at Luton And level on points... Jones in the end had to go, his record was awful and we were going down. However the individual errors at the start of last season were a major factor in our dreadful start and it snowballed.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2020 17:40:40 GMT
Can't see what the relevance of reducing the cost of the starting eleven by £30 million has got to do with anything. It's not as though we managed to recoup any of it. I agree he has done a decent job so far, but that's it.The fact we have signed loads of expensive free transfers masks the true cost of the squad and none of them will have any resale value. Both our former managers are level pegging with us with much cheaper squads. The horrendous recruitment of Hughes and Rowett is why we are where we are. MON has done a good job in sorting them out, but it's too early to judge him. No, we didn't recoup significant money on the players we chose not to use after Jones left. But the players MON used (who Jones rarely or never used) improved the squad and cost the club a lot less than the players they replaced. So MON picked players based mainly on what positive contribution they could make to our results whereas Jones seemed to base his picks on either reputation or the size of the fee paid for them. Obviously Jones insistence on playing the diamond even when he didn't have the players to make it work didn't help his results. I don't think this is fully true. You're suggesting that Jones didn't play Powell and Davies, whereas O'Neill did. In the case of the goalkeeper O'Neill consistently picked reputed Butland, mistakes or not, until the very end where he finally had an epiphany or Butland really did get injured, and then Davies came in and proved both managers wrong. As for Powell, O'Neill is picking him a lot less consistently now, so perhaps he's seeing things in training that Jones also saw. Perhaps. I obviously can't know.
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Post by skelman on Oct 27, 2020 17:51:00 GMT
Steak and ale pie vs tripe and feckin onions!!
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 27, 2020 18:56:26 GMT
I’m a huge fan of a young team, as long as they can compete. Tymon for me isn’t in that bracket and I’m not sure on Thompson yet but haven’t seen enough to form an opinion yet. Look at Brentford for how they’ve bought young players on the up and made a fortune selling them. I honestly think that if Brentford had kept a consistent squad they’d be in the Prem by now. Tymon's most impressive performance was a week or so back when he played in central midfield. Only one game, of course, but I'd like to see him tried there again before writing him off. Maybe you have your wish tonight looking at the team selection.
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