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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2020 13:30:27 GMT
My guess is that the ref never saw the incident so should not have issued a red card in the first place! But refs can’t see everything and they have to trust the word of their linesmen or 4th official. for sure ...if the linesman was sure as MON said that it was a red then the ref will go with his instruction
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Oct 23, 2020 13:36:11 GMT
Good point. I'd like to see the video Stoke supplied to the League which overturned the red card. If as seems likely, there was nothing more than a coming together or, at worst, obstruction, if the Barnsley player DID fall down clutching his face when it had not been touched, then there is a good case for a ban - I and I have to wonder why he hasn't been banned. As he sometimes sits on these panels, I'd love to have Malcolm Clarke's views on this. Simple justice dictates that if a player gets wrongly sent off because of "simulation," then the player who caused the sending off should receive, at minimum, a similar ban to the one which has now been overturned. Ok - the process is this. The FA does have the power under the regs. to charge a player with "successful deception of a match official". It only applies where it results in a red card or penalty ( which is the case here). That's because they are seen as game changing consequences. The rationale is that it wouldn't be logical to retrospectively impose a penalty for say something that happened in the middle of the pitch which is more serious than the yellow card which would have been shown had the ref seen it. If it's a red card situation the process can only start after the regulatory commission has heard the appeal against the dismissal for obvious reasons. If the appeal fails, by definition the match official cannot be assumed to have been deceived. If the FA disciplinary section think there is case to answer, it is referred to an independent panel comprising an ex-referee, and ex-manager and an ex-player. If they are unanimous that it was deception, the FA will charge the player. But if one of them disagrees, there will be no further action. If the player is charged it goes to a regulatory commission who will determine the penalty. So, in this case, the appeal was successful, but that was only yesterday. The FA obviously have the video evidence which led to the successful appeal. IF they think there is a deception case to answer, it will have gone to a panel of 3 as above. Their decision would be today at the earliest I would imagine. IF they are unanimous it was deception, the FA will charge the player who has time to respond before it goes to a Commission. This process might still be underway, or it might not. We have no way of knowing. And of course none of us have seen the video, so we can't express an opinion. Thanks for that, Malcolm - I knew you would be able to throw some light on the situation. I hope if it WAS simulation, that the player gets a well deserved ban. Is there any chance that my suggestion earlier up the thread could ever come into force - i.e. a 3 game ban becomes a ban from the next two games plus a ban from the next game when his club faces us?
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Post by Veritas on Oct 23, 2020 13:43:07 GMT
Not sure an appeal went in in the first place. Ref may have been shown the footage and said he got it wrong in his report? I would think that's unlikely because it could only have happened immediately after the game in an informal situation. It would be before he wrote his report which would have to say why he dismissed the player, and then say that he has changed his mind having seen a video pitchside. He knows that there is a procedure for correcting obvious mistakes which will look at the video. Do you think there is any chance the club will release the footage to the press?
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Post by Northy on Oct 23, 2020 13:50:05 GMT
Any idea who the linesman was, I can only find the referee's name ? It was either Richard Wild or Nik Barnard. Thanks, just making sure it wasn't Billy Smallwood
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Oct 23, 2020 14:44:29 GMT
I would think that's unlikely because it could only have happened immediately after the game in an informal situation. It would be before he wrote his report which would have to say why he dismissed the player, and then say that he has changed his mind having seen a video pitchside. He knows that there is a procedure for correcting obvious mistakes which will look at the video. Do you think there is any chance the club will release the footage to the press? Once all the FA proceedings are completed, there is no reason why they shouldn't if they want to. They make take the view that they don't want to damage relations with Barnsley, so I would be surprised if they did release it, but I don't know
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Oct 23, 2020 14:45:58 GMT
Ok - the process is this. The FA does have the power under the regs. to charge a player with "successful deception of a match official". It only applies where it results in a red card or penalty ( which is the case here). That's because they are seen as game changing consequences. The rationale is that it wouldn't be logical to retrospectively impose a penalty for say something that happened in the middle of the pitch which is more serious than the yellow card which would have been shown had the ref seen it. If it's a red card situation the process can only start after the regulatory commission has heard the appeal against the dismissal for obvious reasons. If the appeal fails, by definition the match official cannot be assumed to have been deceived. If the FA disciplinary section think there is case to answer, it is referred to an independent panel comprising an ex-referee, and ex-manager and an ex-player. If they are unanimous that it was deception, the FA will charge the player. But if one of them disagrees, there will be no further action. If the player is charged it goes to a regulatory commission who will determine the penalty. So, in this case, the appeal was successful, but that was only yesterday. The FA obviously have the video evidence which led to the successful appeal. IF they think there is a deception case to answer, it will have gone to a panel of 3 as above. Their decision would be today at the earliest I would imagine. IF they are unanimous it was deception, the FA will charge the player who has time to respond before it goes to a Commission. This process might still be underway, or it might not. We have no way of knowing. And of course none of us have seen the video, so we can't express an opinion. Thanks for that, Malcolm - I knew you would be able to throw some light on the situation. I hope if it WAS simulation, that the player gets a well deserved ban. Is there any chance that my suggestion earlier up the thread could ever come into force - i.e. a 3 game ban becomes a ban from the next two games plus a ban from the next game when his club faces us? I doubt it, John. Just too complicated - particularly if promotion and relegation mean clubs get separated.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Oct 23, 2020 14:51:32 GMT
Thanks for that, Malcolm - I knew you would be able to throw some light on the situation. I hope if it WAS simulation, that the player gets a well deserved ban. Is there any chance that my suggestion earlier up the thread could ever come into force - i.e. a 3 game ban becomes a ban from the next two games plus a ban from the next game when his club faces us? I doubt it, John. Just too complicated - particularly if promotion and relegation mean clubs get separated. Oh - I'd be happy for his missed game against the club who suffered the injustice to be played years later!
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Post by madelinesmithmmmh on Oct 23, 2020 14:57:59 GMT
I doubt it, John. Just too complicated - particularly if promotion and relegation mean clubs get separated. Oh - I'd be happy for his missed game against the club who suffered the injustice to be played years later! No doubt we'd buy him just in time for that rule to come into force - what happens then?
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Post by lancashirelad on Oct 23, 2020 15:03:07 GMT
It was either Richard Wild or Nik Barnard. Thanks, just making sure it wasn't Billy Smallwood It was Richard Wild in front of the main stand. His eye sight was dodge in the first half flagging Campbell a couple of times failing to spot the Barnsley defender further across field on barnsley right playing him onside. never mind he will get it right next time.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Oct 23, 2020 15:29:01 GMT
Any idea who the linesman was, I can only find the referee's name ? It was either Richard Wild or Nik Barnard. We only have to look at the decisions he made to know he's a Richard.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Oct 23, 2020 15:39:49 GMT
The only two things that need correcting are the rescinding of the red card, which has happened, and the hope those officials never set foot in our stadium again. Still don't understand with the technology available why, when massive game changing, game ruining decisions are to be made, why they do not consult replays just to ensure that 'in their minds' they get it right. Reflection often helps, and removes hindsight That's VAR in the Championship, which would be a major decision for the EFL to take ( and I suspect far from universally popular with fans ! )
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Oct 23, 2020 15:45:33 GMT
Some “liners “ are not content with just sticking to the bulk of their jobs of throws and offsides and want to involve themselves in the game more. When this happens quite often they are so focused on other areas of the pitch that they then miss things which they are responsible for which happened the other night. On the other hand he could just be shit. They are told to work as a team of 4, which is obviously common sense. So if one of the other three spots something the ref didn't, they should intervene, as he did. On this occasion he was obviously wrong. So long as human beings are doing the job, that will happen sometimes. Next time we might be the beneficiaries.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Oct 23, 2020 15:52:03 GMT
My guess is that the ref never saw the incident so should not have issued a red card in the first place! That's not how it works. As I've said above, if one of other officials see something the ref didn't, they have to draw his/her attention to it, which is common sense. In this case he obviously got it wrong. It will be interesting to see if a simulation charge now follows ( see my post in reply to Lakeland). I think we would all love to see the video, but I doubt whether we will.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 23, 2020 16:02:47 GMT
Still don't understand with the technology available why, when massive game changing, game ruining decisions are to be made, why they do not consult replays just to ensure that 'in their minds' they get it right. Reflection often helps, and removes hindsight That's VAR in the Championship, which would be a major decision for the EFL to take ( and I suspect far from universally popular with fans ! ) Just my opinion but VAR should be consigned to history. But I guess Pandora's box is open now.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2020 16:25:54 GMT
No prob with VAR if the rules are slightly changed.
Obvious decisions like the Henry/Maradona handballs, clearand obvious offsides that don't need lines that look like they were drawn by someone who has just consumed a dozen bottles of Farmer Henry's Special Extra strong Cornish cider, ones that can be seen by the naked eye immediately on a replay for instance as the forward gets the benefit if touch and go
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Post by thestatusquo on Oct 23, 2020 16:42:49 GMT
Some “liners “ are not content with just sticking to the bulk of their jobs of throws and offsides and want to involve themselves in the game more. When this happens quite often they are so focused on other areas of the pitch that they then miss things which they are responsible for which happened the other night. On the other hand he could just be shit. They are told to work as a team of 4, which is obviously common sense. So if one of the other three spots something the ref didn't, they should intervene, as he did. On this occasion he was obviously wrong. So long as human beings are doing the job, that will happen sometimes. Next time we might be the beneficiaries. Listening to MON’s brief appraisal of his performance it wasn’t the only decision that he believed was wrong. They are supposed to work together as a team but sometimes it doesn’t work out that way and you do occasionally get a loose cannon
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Post by TinkerT on Oct 23, 2020 16:47:24 GMT
Yes they get demoted a game or two but they don't loose any cash, us football clubs loose cash from there crap decisions if we miss out on promotion or relegated due to them being so useless. Well yes, but people in any job sometimes make mistakes, and don't normally get "fined" for that. We have to be both realistic and reasonable, don't we ? None of us have any idea of this particular Assistant Referee's level performance week by week. If it regularly isn't good, he might not go any higher or might be demoted. But even the best match officials, just like in any other job, don't get everything right. And none of us have seen the video so we don't know how big an error this was. Tomorrow we might benefit from a match official's error. One thing is for sure, so long as human beings are doing the job, mistakes will sometimes happen. Yes that's true but big decisions are being missed every single week and when we were in the PL we had far more wrong than for us. If me or you made as many mistakes as these officials every week we would be out of a job. The thing is as well when we used to be in the stadium you could genuinely see these mistakes happening so its not like its fine margins in a lot of cases. VAR should help when they sort the rules out hopefully.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Oct 23, 2020 17:00:02 GMT
Well yes, but people in any job sometimes make mistakes, and don't normally get "fined" for that. We have to be both realistic and reasonable, don't we ? None of us have any idea of this particular Assistant Referee's level performance week by week. If it regularly isn't good, he might not go any higher or might be demoted. But even the best match officials, just like in any other job, don't get everything right. And none of us have seen the video so we don't know how big an error this was. Tomorrow we might benefit from a match official's error. One thing is for sure, so long as human beings are doing the job, mistakes will sometimes happen. Yes that's true but big decisions are being missed every single week and when we were in the PL we had far more wrong than for us. If me or you made as many mistakes as these officials every week we would be out of a job. The thing is as well when we used to be in the stadium you could genuinely see these mistakes happening so its not like its fine margins in a lot of cases. VAR should help when they sort the rules out hopefully. Supporters of every club believe that they suffer more than benefit from officials mistakes. It's part of our psychology. For me one of the interesting things about VAR is just how may decisions the naked eye of the officials get right.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Oct 23, 2020 17:02:46 GMT
They are told to work as a team of 4, which is obviously common sense. So if one of the other three spots something the ref didn't, they should intervene, as he did. On this occasion he was obviously wrong. So long as human beings are doing the job, that will happen sometimes. Next time we might be the beneficiaries. Listening to MON’s brief appraisal of his performance it wasn’t the only decision that he believed was wrong. They are supposed to work together as a team but sometimes it doesn’t work out that way and you do occasionally get a loose cannon I think there are very few managers whose assessment you would accept at face value on this, particularly just after a game has finished, and you have suffered a bad decision, as we had on this occasion.
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Post by leicspotter on Oct 23, 2020 18:22:36 GMT
Listening to MON’s brief appraisal of his performance it wasn’t the only decision that he believed was wrong. They are supposed to work together as a team but sometimes it doesn’t work out that way and you do occasionally get a loose cannon I think there are very few managers whose assessment you would accept at face value on this, particularly just after a game has finished, and you have suffered a bad decision, as we had on this occasion. I think you are being very harsh on Arsene Wenger there Malcolm
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Oct 23, 2020 18:39:13 GMT
I think there are very few managers whose assessment you would accept at face value on this, particularly just after a game has finished, and you have suffered a bad decision, as we had on this occasion. I think you are being very harsh on Arsene Wenger there Malcolm Well Arsene had one thing in common with Wednesday's ref. - he never saw the incident
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Post by Veritas on Oct 23, 2020 19:36:12 GMT
Do you think there is any chance the club will release the footage to the press? Once all the FA proceedings are completed, there is no reason why they shouldn't if they want to. They make take the view that they don't want to damage relations with Barnsley, so I would be surprised if they did release it, but I don't know I suspect you are right but to my mind stuff relations with Barnsley if their player took a dive expose the cheat.
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