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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 22, 2020 18:00:23 GMT
Exactly he’d have done the same whatever the gender. She did what any liner would have done and politely told him to piss off. Case closed In fairness we can't know this. Personally my feeling is that his actions were affected by the fact it was a woman. But I don't think it's a huge deal and calling it sexist is a stretch. The bigger issue is that players shouldn't be laying their hands on officials full stop. If that was explicit in the rules, he gets a yellow and the matter is dealt with. If his actions were affected by the fact that she was a woman then it was sexist. The very definition of what sexism is. I had to laugh at your second and third sentences!
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Post by PotterLog on Oct 22, 2020 18:03:11 GMT
In fairness we can't know this. Personally my feeling is that his actions were affected by the fact it was a woman. But I don't think it's a huge deal and calling it sexist is a stretch. The bigger issue is that players shouldn't be laying their hands on officials full stop. If that was explicit in the rules, he gets a yellow and the matter is dealt with. If his actions were affected by the fact that she was a woman then it was sexist. The very definition of what sexism is. I had to laugh at your second and third sentences! Firstly I said that's my feeling, not that that's definitely what happened. Secondly that's not the definition of what sexism is.
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Post by lancashirelad on Oct 22, 2020 18:08:11 GMT
If referring to Collins suspension, already been overturned. The player who feigned injury to get him sent off should now be banned for 3 games for unsportsmanlike behaviour imo. Swings and roundabouts though isn't it really? Absolutely not a red card. But you can say the same for the fella that got sent off for Preston vs us. Fox did his utmost to get him sent off and it worked. That isn't to defend the fella rolling about on the floor... but it's football and you're stupid if you don't do it. Think one of the first things Mourinho said when he went in at Spurs was that he wants them all to be bigger cunts. Far from it. The PNE player may have slipped and been accidental but it was endangering an opponent. I get Fox did roll over slightly not to too much excess in my opinion (but when caught by a high boot when your grounded you tend to roll to one side). Plus PNE appealed it and it was reduced to a 1 match ban due to a slip but still a sending off for endangering an opponent. PS Glad the Collins one was over turned.
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Post by marcofstoke on Oct 22, 2020 18:10:05 GMT
Damn right. If a red card is overturned because a player is feigning injury then they should have the card retrospectively. Fucking cheating barnsley twat and the wank linesman both deserve the inevitable round of fucks that will come when we return to the stadium. Exactly! The Assistant Ref 'might' have made a genuine mistake, but the Barnsley player CHEATED...and appears to benefit twice. First Stooke go down to 10 men, then the cheat (appears to) gets off scot free... . Do we know who it was? Scorer of their second goal, Dominik Frieser
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Post by leicspotter on Oct 22, 2020 18:13:27 GMT
Exactly! The Assistant Ref 'might' have made a genuine mistake, but the Barnsley player CHEATED...and appears to benefit twice. First Stooke go down to 10 men, then the cheat (appears to) gets off scot free... . Do we know who it was? Scorer of their second goal, Dominik Frieser Thanks Be interesting to see if he makes a habit of it
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 22, 2020 18:14:36 GMT
If his actions were affected by the fact that she was a woman then it was sexist. The very definition of what sexism is. I had to laugh at your second and third sentences! Firstly I said that's my feeling, not that that's definitely what happened. Secondly that's not the definition of what sexism is. What would you say sexism is then? It is treating someone in a particular way or making assumptions about them based on their sex. As sexism goes Aguero's was of the more pleasant sort but still sexism and still wrong in the context of a football match and incredibly patronising. It was as if he was saying "Come on don't get upset. We know you made a mistake but it's alright."
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Post by maninasuitcase on Oct 22, 2020 18:17:11 GMT
Exactly! The Assistant Ref 'might' have made a genuine mistake, but the Barnsley player CHEATED...and appears to benefit twice. First Stooke go down to 10 men, then the cheat (appears to) gets off scot free... . Do we know who it was? Scorer of their second goal, Dominik Frieser The fucker wants putting on ice the cheating cunt.
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Post by xchpotter on Oct 22, 2020 18:17:40 GMT
As annoying as it was, if our bloody players could be arsed from the kick off then it might not have become the talking point it is now. That annoys me far more than useless referees as it’s beyond the teams control whereas how they choose to perform is very much in their control.
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Post by numpty40 on Oct 22, 2020 18:19:02 GMT
Because not only did he put his hands on an official but was it was sexist as he thought he could get her to change her mind by putting his arm round her shoulder. In today's climate whatever Guardiola says (and in general the Spanish don't understand racist/sexist behaviour which in itself is a racist statement I know) that was disgusting. She dealt with it brilliantly, firm but no fuss. She is rarely wrong in a decision and I know you notice her more because she's a woman but I think she' s one of the best assistant referees. Last night's should perhaps be made to shadow her for a month and learn how to run the line properly. Have you seen Aguero play before? He loves getting touchy feely with the officials, man or woman. You're going over the top, it was a nothing "incident" really. Seen him a few times but can't remember seeing him hugging male refs and liners, I'm sure you'll post video evidence though?
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Post by GeneralFaye on Oct 22, 2020 18:27:15 GMT
Have you seen Aguero play before? He loves getting touchy feely with the officials, man or woman. You're going over the top, it was a nothing "incident" really. Seen him a few times but can't remember seeing him hugging male refs and liners, I'm sure you'll post video evidence though? He didn't "hug" her? No need to be arsey.
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Post by PotterLog on Oct 22, 2020 18:32:14 GMT
Have you seen Aguero play before? He loves getting touchy feely with the officials, man or woman. You're going over the top, it was a nothing "incident" really. Seen him a few times but can't remember seeing him hugging male refs and liners, I'm sure you'll post video evidence though? Ok it's not Aguero but I feel the thread needs it
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Post by ChesterStokie on Oct 22, 2020 18:35:27 GMT
Firstly I said that's my feeling, not that that's definitely what happened. Secondly that's not the definition of what sexism is. What would you say sexism is then? It is treating someone in a particular way or making assumptions about them based on their sex. As sexism goes Aguero's was of the more pleasant sort but still sexism and still wrong in the context of a football match and incredibly patronising. It was as if he was saying "Come on don't get upset. We know you made a mistake but it's alright." Oh I didn’t see it that way at all. I’ve just watched the Aguero / Massey incident again and what I think happened was that Aguero was telling her in no uncertain terms that he disagreed with her decision, Massey ignored him and turned away and he momentarily put his arm round her neck to pull her back to try to get her to stop ignoring him.
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Post by numpty40 on Oct 22, 2020 18:40:10 GMT
Seen him a few times but can't remember seeing him hugging male refs and liners, I'm sure you'll post video evidence though? He didn't "hug" her? No need to be arsey. Not being arsey, just think he was out of order. What's got lost in all the controversy is how well Massey-Ellis dealt with the situation but that doesn't excuse Aguero's behaviour. It seemed patronising.
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Post by PotterLog on Oct 22, 2020 18:48:16 GMT
He didn't "hug" her? No need to be arsey. Not being arsey, just think he was out of order. What's got lost in all the controversy is how well Massey-Ellis dealt with the situation but that doesn't excuse Aguero's behaviour. It seemed patronising. Have you noticed how much you're using expressions like "it seemed" and "it's as if"? You're making a whole load of assumptions based on your own interpretations of a hand lightly touching a shoulder. You're welcome to your interpretation of course, but you'll need a bit more than that for allegations of "disgusting sexism" to stick. edit:- sorry, I confused you and nottsover60 . General point stands though
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Post by walrus on Oct 22, 2020 18:50:32 GMT
This whole thing is fucking ridiculous really isn't it? It may have cost us 2 points last night for a decision that nobody understood and has been overturned in less than 24 hours, which never happens. Who's going to be responsible for this massive error as we've been well and truly fucked about by the refs. We probably gained at least two points at Preston when a poor red card decision went our way. We’re neutral for the season now. No need to be up in arms.
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Post by AlbertTatlock on Oct 22, 2020 18:56:48 GMT
He didn't "hug" her? No need to be arsey. Not being arsey, just think he was out of order. What's got lost in all the controversy is how well Massey-Ellis dealt with the situation but that doesn't excuse Aguero's behaviour. It seemed patronising. Patronising isn't a bookable offence though. Gouranga.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 22, 2020 19:12:10 GMT
Firstly I said that's my feeling, not that that's definitely what happened. Secondly that's not the definition of what sexism is. What would you say sexism is then? It is treating someone in a particular way or making assumptions about them based on their sex. As sexism goes Aguero's was of the more pleasant sort but still sexism and still wrong in the context of a football match and incredibly patronising. It was as if he was saying "Come on don't get upset. We know you made a mistake but it's alright." You’re the one making assumptions here. Had he done that to a male official it wouldn’t have been noticed. Because she is female (one of the best in my opinion) it’s made out to be some sort of “calm down dear” moment. Women have had to work a lot harder to get to the point Sian Massey is, the last thing we need is some over reacting apologetic reaction because she’s female. Same job, same rules, same outcome is the way forward. Start talking about treating women differently to men is opening up yet another can of worms.
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 22, 2020 19:29:01 GMT
What would you say sexism is then? It is treating someone in a particular way or making assumptions about them based on their sex. As sexism goes Aguero's was of the more pleasant sort but still sexism and still wrong in the context of a football match and incredibly patronising. It was as if he was saying "Come on don't get upset. We know you made a mistake but it's alright." You’re the one making assumptions here. Had he done that to a male official it wouldn’t have been noticed. Because she is female (one of the best in my opinion) it’s made out to be some sort of “calm down dear” moment. Women have had to work a lot harder to get to the point Sian Massey is, the last thing we need is some over reacting apologetic reaction because she’s female. Same job, same rules, same outcome is the way forward. Start talking about treating women differently to men is opening up yet another can of worms. Tell me the last time you saw a player put his arms round the shoulders of a male official after berating him for making a wrong decision. The rule is no touching. Yes JOM was lucky not to be booked but so was Aguero. I am sure from her reaction that Sian Massey felt he was treating her in a different way from a male official. There is no reason why she should have had to work harder than a man to get where she has and to say we should ignore theat sort of behaviour just perpetuates that situation. I like Aguero and I'm sure he had the best intentions when he did it but it wasn't right and whatever anyone says he would not have put his arms around a man in the same way. It is to Massey's credit that she handled it herself. As a woman I can assure you I have on several occasions laughed off remarks about women not understanding offside for example or men turning to me to apologise for swearing but still find it annoying that the comments are being made because I am a woman. Men can find gratuitous swearing just as offensive as women do.
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Post by madnellie on Oct 22, 2020 19:32:28 GMT
What would you say sexism is then? It is treating someone in a particular way or making assumptions about them based on their sex. As sexism goes Aguero's was of the more pleasant sort but still sexism and still wrong in the context of a football match and incredibly patronising. It was as if he was saying "Come on don't get upset. We know you made a mistake but it's alright." You’re the one making assumptions here. Had he done that to a male official it wouldn’t have been noticed. Because she is female (one of the best in my opinion) it’s made out to be some sort of “calm down dear” moment. Women have had to work a lot harder to get to the point Sian Massey is, the last thing we need is some over reacting apologetic reaction because she’s female. Same job, same rules, same outcome is the way forward. Start talking about treating women differently to men is opening up yet another can of worms. My thoughts exactly. We had one of our own players (and a very well known one at that) push a referee yesterday yet absolutely no mention is made of that anywhere in the media. Things like this happen all the time, no matter the gender of the official or player. We have female officials regularly in the CPL over here and I can't say I've noticed any difference in how the players behave towards them. These kinds of incidents happen in the women's game too. From the few interviews I've read with Massey-Ellis I don't think she's the sort of person who would put up with sexism (or other prejudice). Let's not forget she had to deal with it right at the start of her career. I don't see sexism here, but more importantly it seems Massey-Ellis doesn't see it either. It should still have been a yellow card for putting hands on an official though.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 22, 2020 19:36:09 GMT
You’re the one making assumptions here. Had he done that to a male official it wouldn’t have been noticed. Because she is female (one of the best in my opinion) it’s made out to be some sort of “calm down dear” moment. Women have had to work a lot harder to get to the point Sian Massey is, the last thing we need is some over reacting apologetic reaction because she’s female. Same job, same rules, same outcome is the way forward. Start talking about treating women differently to men is opening up yet another can of worms. Tell me the last time you saw a player put his arms round the shoulders of a male official after berating him for making a wrong decision. The rule is no touching. Yes JOM was lucky not to be booked but so was Aguero. I am sure from her reaction that Sian Massey felt he was treating her in a different way from a male official. There is no reason why she should have had to work harder than a man to get where she has and to say we should ignore theat sort of behaviour just perpetuates that situation. I like Aguero and I'm sure he had the best intentions when he did it but it wasn't right and whatever anyone says he would not have put his arms around a man in the same way. It is to Massey's credit that she handled it herself. As a woman I can assure you I have on several occasions laughed off remarks about women not understanding offside for example or men turning to me to apologise for swearing but still find it annoying that the comments are being made because I am a woman. Men can find gratuitous swearing just as offensive as women do. I couldn’t direct you to an exact example of a player touching an official as it happens weekly without the kind of circus created in this incident. I’m sorry you’ve been patronised in the past by men but this in no way related to this incident as far as I’m concerned. Miss Massey is a professional referee and as such is trained in the same way as everyone else and would also know what to do in the situation where a player (god forbid) put his hand on a shoulder. Your attitude really doesn’t do any favours to Sian Massey and other women looking to make a career in the world of sports officiating.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Oct 22, 2020 19:37:16 GMT
Because not only did he put his hands on an official but was it was sexist as he thought he could get her to change her mind by putting his arm round her shoulder. In today's climate whatever Guardiola says (and in general the Spanish don't understand racist/sexist behaviour which in itself is a racist statement I know) that was disgusting. She dealt with it brilliantly, firm but no fuss. She is rarely wrong in a decision and I know you notice her more because she's a woman but I think she' s one of the best assistant referees. Last night's should perhaps be made to shadow her for a month and learn how to run the line properly. Give over, mikels was far worse, regardless of gender. I'm very surprised that Mikel got away with it. It could so easily have been a second red, and under the guidance should have been.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 22, 2020 19:40:48 GMT
You’re the one making assumptions here. Had he done that to a male official it wouldn’t have been noticed. Because she is female (one of the best in my opinion) it’s made out to be some sort of “calm down dear” moment. Women have had to work a lot harder to get to the point Sian Massey is, the last thing we need is some over reacting apologetic reaction because she’s female. Same job, same rules, same outcome is the way forward. Start talking about treating women differently to men is opening up yet another can of worms. My thoughts exactly. We had one of our own players (and a very well known one at that) push a referee yesterday yet absolutely no mention is made of that anywhere in the media. Things like this happen all the time, no matter the gender of the official or player. We have female officials regularly in the CPL over here and I can't say I've noticed any difference in how the players behave towards them. These kinds of incidents happen in the women's game too. From the few interviews I've read with Massey-Ellis I don't think she's the sort of person who would put up with sexism (or other prejudice). Let's not forget she had to deal with it right at the start of her career. I don't see sexism here, but more importantly it seems Massey-Ellis doesn't see it either. It should still have been a yellow card for putting hands on an official though. I agree a yellow for Mikel and possibly Aguero although there was nothing aggressive about Agueros behaviour for me
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Post by PotterLog on Oct 22, 2020 19:43:31 GMT
You’re the one making assumptions here. Had he done that to a male official it wouldn’t have been noticed. Because she is female (one of the best in my opinion) it’s made out to be some sort of “calm down dear” moment. Women have had to work a lot harder to get to the point Sian Massey is, the last thing we need is some over reacting apologetic reaction because she’s female. Same job, same rules, same outcome is the way forward. Start talking about treating women differently to men is opening up yet another can of worms. Tell me the last time you saw a player put his arms round the shoulders of a male official after berating him for making a wrong decision. Not proof of anything, but this is one quick google search:
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Oct 22, 2020 19:44:56 GMT
Didn’t take long that did it. Certainly didn't. Stoke must have got the evidence down to the FA early this morning, which is good, and they convened a panel very quickly. The referee must also have filed his report straight away. Probably helped by the fact that so many panel members are at home at the moment, and available to do a hearing almost straight away.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Oct 22, 2020 19:55:44 GMT
This whole thing is fucking ridiculous really isn't it? It may have cost us 2 points last night for a decision that nobody understood and has been overturned in less than 24 hours, which never happens. Who's going to be responsible for this massive error as we've been well and truly fucked about by the refs. Thing is though fuck all happens which is ridiculous. Imagine if we got relegated by 1 point? This shit with these refs is a joke and they get no punishment at all That's not actually true. They are all assessed at every game, and the PGMOL view all controversial incidents and overturned decisions, and it can affect promotion and match allocation. Sometimes officials get demoted - it happened to Stuart Atwell a few years ago when he lost his PL status, and he's now back again based on his performances. People in any profession sometimes make mistakes. That includes professional footballers. The Barnsley 'keeper made a bad one last night which gave us a goal. We have benefitted in the past from match officials mistakes and will no doubt do so again at some point in the future. It's very annoying when it happens to our team but human beings sometimes make mistakes. If we had had VAR last night it would probably have been overturned last night, or not even made in the first place if the Ref had looked at the monitor.
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 22, 2020 20:01:26 GMT
Tell me the last time you saw a player put his arms round the shoulders of a male official after berating him for making a wrong decision. The rule is no touching. Yes JOM was lucky not to be booked but so was Aguero. I am sure from her reaction that Sian Massey felt he was treating her in a different way from a male official. There is no reason why she should have had to work harder than a man to get where she has and to say we should ignore theat sort of behaviour just perpetuates that situation. I like Aguero and I'm sure he had the best intentions when he did it but it wasn't right and whatever anyone says he would not have put his arms around a man in the same way. It is to Massey's credit that she handled it herself. As a woman I can assure you I have on several occasions laughed off remarks about women not understanding offside for example or men turning to me to apologise for swearing but still find it annoying that the comments are being made because I am a woman. Men can find gratuitous swearing just as offensive as women do. I couldn’t direct you to an exact example of a player touching an official as it happens weekly without the kind of circus created in this incident. I’m sorry you’ve been patronised in the past by men but this in no way related to this incident as far as I’m concerned. Miss Massey is a professional referee and as such is trained in the same way as everyone else and would also know what to do in the situation where a player (god forbid) put his hand on a shoulder. Your attitude really doesn’t do any favours to Sian Massey and other women looking to make a career in the world of sports officiating. I'm sorry but I can't agree that because she has been trained in the same way as men we should accept that she can handle the situation so we should turn a blind eye. On a smaller scale but this is exactly the sort of attitude that black people have had to put up with. Read Paul Williams interview on the BBC site. If he made a fuss about racism in the form of banter it was said that he had a chip on his shoulder. I am not a massive feminist and can see that the Aguero incident was not malicious but that doesn't mean that it was right. I get annoyed with the just accept it response. I have seen assistant referees call the attention of the referee to the fact that players have said things to them that they don't like. Aguero by the way did not just 'put a hand on her shoulder' it was a consoling gesture. Why did he think she needed consoling?
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Post by walrus on Oct 22, 2020 20:03:16 GMT
Thing is though fuck all happens which is ridiculous. Imagine if we got relegated by 1 point? This shit with these refs is a joke and they get no punishment at all That's not actually true. They are all assessed at every game, and the PGMOL view all controversial incidents and overturned decisions, and it can affect promotion and match allocation. Sometimes officials get demoted - it happened to Stuart Atwell a few years ago when he lost his PL status, and he's now back again based on his performances. People in any profession sometimes make mistakes. That includes professional footballers. The Barnsley 'keeper made a bad one last night which gave us a goal. We have benefitted in the past from match officials mistakes and will no doubt do so again at some point in the future. It's very annoying when it happens to our team but human beings sometimes make mistakes. If we had had VAR last night it would probably have been overturned last night, or not even made in the first place if the Ref had looked at the monitor. You’re just about the only person on this thread talking any sense.
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Post by nottsover60 on Oct 22, 2020 20:04:52 GMT
If you compare those pictures with ones of Aguero and Massey you will notice a difference in the way contact is being made except perhaps the Pogba one.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Oct 22, 2020 20:07:34 GMT
That's not actually true. They are all assessed at every game, and the PGMOL view all controversial incidents and overturned decisions, and it can affect promotion and match allocation. Sometimes officials get demoted - it happened to Stuart Atwell a few years ago when he lost his PL status, and he's now back again based on his performances. People in any profession sometimes make mistakes. That includes professional footballers. The Barnsley 'keeper made a bad one last night which gave us a goal. We have benefitted in the past from match officials mistakes and will no doubt do so again at some point in the future. It's very annoying when it happens to our team but human beings sometimes make mistakes. If we had had VAR last night it would probably have been overturned last night, or not even made in the first place if the Ref had looked at the monitor. You’re just about the only person on this thread talking any sense.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 22, 2020 20:18:52 GMT
I couldn’t direct you to an exact example of a player touching an official as it happens weekly without the kind of circus created in this incident. I’m sorry you’ve been patronised in the past by men but this in no way related to this incident as far as I’m concerned. Miss Massey is a professional referee and as such is trained in the same way as everyone else and would also know what to do in the situation where a player (god forbid) put his hand on a shoulder. Your attitude really doesn’t do any favours to Sian Massey and other women looking to make a career in the world of sports officiating. I'm sorry but I can't agree that because she has been trained in the same way as men we should accept that she can handle the situation so we should turn a blind eye. On a smaller scale but this is exactly the sort of attitude that black people have had to put up with. Read Paul Williams interview on the BBC site. If he made a fuss about racism in the form of banter it was said that he had a chip on his shoulder. I am not a massive feminist and can see that the Aguero incident was not malicious but that doesn't mean that it was right. I get annoyed with the just accept it response. I have seen assistant referees call the attention of the referee to the fact that players have said things to them that they don't like. Aguero by the way did not just 'put a hand on her shoulder' it was a consoling gesture. Why did he think she needed consoling? We shall agree to disagree on this one I think, especially now you’ve brought race into it. Have a nice day👍🏻
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