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Post by PotteringThrough on Nov 18, 2020 15:12:30 GMT
Youre picking on a hypothetical question, posed in response to another hypothetical question and while your point might be valid it's only a best guess. Much in the same way the original question was derived where guesses were made about just what it is Scholes does because it would appear no one knows. Jones isn't a best guess, it's confirmed that he was John Coates' choice. Whatever he does or doesn't do, and clearly a fair bit of this mess is on his hands, the on-pitch/transfer stuff has largely been left to the manager and we've relied too heavily on them if anything. It's an outdated model but one we seem completely wedded to and will be, sadly, for as long as the family is in charge. No, sorry let me stop you there. The original question was along the lines of - would we have been relegated if we'd have got rid of Scholes instead of Jones. To which my response was would we have to endure Jones if we'd get rid of Scholes instead of Rowett. That was the original position and my stance. Jones may well have been Johns pick based on the conversations with his mate down the pub - and as I said previously the likelihood is we would have got relegated with Jones but keeping Rowett probably would've been mid table safety. So In relation to the original point - would you personally have rather kept Rowett or gone with Jones? Pick 1.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 18, 2020 15:52:10 GMT
Jones isn't a best guess, it's confirmed that he was John Coates' choice. Whatever he does or doesn't do, and clearly a fair bit of this mess is on his hands, the on-pitch/transfer stuff has largely been left to the manager and we've relied too heavily on them if anything. It's an outdated model but one we seem completely wedded to and will be, sadly, for as long as the family is in charge. No, sorry let me stop you there. The original question was along the lines of - would we have been relegated if we'd have got rid of Scholes instead of Jones. To which my response was would we have to endure Jones if we'd get rid of Scholes instead of Rowett. That was the original position and my stance. Jones may well have been Johns pick based on the conversations with his mate down the pub - and as I said previously the likelihood is we would have got relegated with Jones but keeping Rowett probably would've been mid table safety. So In relation to the original point - would you personally have rather kept Rowett or gone with Jones? Pick 1. I mean, it's a stupid question steeped entirely in hindsight, but if I had full foreknowledge of both then obviously things were worse under Jones. But being mid-table under Rowett playing the soporific yet expensively assembled shite he went out of his way to produce would still have represented a gross underperformance entirely worthy of the sack. I don't think getting rid of Scholes would've made a blind bit of difference to either, personally.
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Post by PotteringThrough on Nov 18, 2020 15:58:42 GMT
No, sorry let me stop you there. The original question was along the lines of - would we have been relegated if we'd have got rid of Scholes instead of Jones. To which my response was would we have to endure Jones if we'd get rid of Scholes instead of Rowett. That was the original position and my stance. Jones may well have been Johns pick based on the conversations with his mate down the pub - and as I said previously the likelihood is we would have got relegated with Jones but keeping Rowett probably would've been mid table safety. So In relation to the original point - would you personally have rather kept Rowett or gone with Jones? Pick 1. I mean, it's a stupid question steeped entirely in hindsight, but if I had full foreknowledge of both then obviously things were worse under Jones. But being mid-table under Rowett playing the soporific yet expensively assembled shite he went out of his way to produce would still have represented a gross underperformance entirely worthy of the sack. I don't think getting rid of Scholes would've made a blind bit of difference to either, personally. Yeah, I agree with your position on Malcolm's original question.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Nov 18, 2020 16:30:33 GMT
Youre picking on a hypothetical question, posed in response to another hypothetical question and while your point might be valid it's only a best guess. Much in the same way the original question was derived where guesses were made about just what it is Scholes does because it would appear no one knows. Jones isn't a best guess, it's confirmed that he was John Coates' choice. Whatever he does or doesn't do, and clearly a fair bit of this mess is on his hands, the on-pitch/transfer stuff has largely been left to the manager and we've relied too heavily on them if anything. It's an outdated model but one we seem completely wedded to and will be, sadly, for as long as the family is in charge. I think your last sentence poses the interesting question. Is it an outdated model ? Bayern put forward above an alternative model which is more closely aligned to some of the continental 'Director of Football' models but which have tended not to be popular in this country. It would be a good discussion for the Supporters Council to have with the club but they would really need to have "the family" there, not just the CEO. I have long been mystified by the fact that football owners often seem to go about appointing managers with a speed and looseness of process which they would never allow for such a vital appointment in their other businesses. Jon Coates account to the Q & A of the appointment of Nathan Jones did nothing to reassure me on that point !
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Post by stokie1 on Nov 18, 2020 16:34:20 GMT
Jones isn't a best guess, it's confirmed that he was John Coates' choice. Whatever he does or doesn't do, and clearly a fair bit of this mess is on his hands, the on-pitch/transfer stuff has largely been left to the manager and we've relied too heavily on them if anything. It's an outdated model but one we seem completely wedded to and will be, sadly, for as long as the family is in charge. I think your last sentence poses the interesting question. Is it an outdated model ? Bayern put forward above an alternative model which is more closely aligned to some of the continental 'Director of Football' models but which have tended not to be popular in this country. It would be a good discussion for the Supporters Council to have with the club but they would really need to have "the family" there, not just the CEO. I have long been mystified by the fact that football owners often seem to go about appointing managers with a speed and looseness of process which they would never allow for such a vital appointment in their other businesses. Jon Coates account to the Q & A of the appointment of Nathan Jones did nothing to reassure me on that point ! I think Peter Coates now has pretty sound judgement when it comes to hiring managers. I know he was the one pushing for MON. I am a little nervous about Scholes and John Coates. John Coates comes across as a but of a loose cannon. What do you guys think of him. I have seen him at the supporters Q and A sessions and he seems all over the show.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 18, 2020 16:36:44 GMT
Jones isn't a best guess, it's confirmed that he was John Coates' choice. Whatever he does or doesn't do, and clearly a fair bit of this mess is on his hands, the on-pitch/transfer stuff has largely been left to the manager and we've relied too heavily on them if anything. It's an outdated model but one we seem completely wedded to and will be, sadly, for as long as the family is in charge. I think your last sentence poses the interesting question. Is it an outdated model ? Bayern put forward above an alternative model which is more closely aligned to some of the continental 'Director of Football' models but which have tended not to be popular in this country. It would be a good discussion for the Supporters Council to have with the club but they would really need to have "the family" there, not just the CEO. I have long been mystified by the fact that football owners often seem to go about appointing managers with a speed and looseness of process which they would never allow for such a vital appointment in their other businesses. Jon Coates account to the Q & A of the appointment of Nathan Jones did nothing to reassure me on that point ! I think that's it Malcolm - the looseness of the process, with appointments often made with seemingly no thought given to how they'll work with the squad built by their predecessor or how they'll look to build things for the future. There needs to be more of a vision higher up that the manager fits into, rather than them being the ones driving it. That generally seems to be what's stood Southampton in such good stead. The Norwich model also seems light years ahead of ours - it's had mixed success (they were rotten last year but did have a lot of injury problems and didn't spend any money) but it seems very holistic and sensible. trainingground.guru/articles/stuart-webber-climb-of-the-canariesWe just never seem to be at the vanguard of anything like this, we're always behind the curve.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Nov 18, 2020 16:53:35 GMT
I think your last sentence poses the interesting question. Is it an outdated model ? Bayern put forward above an alternative model which is more closely aligned to some of the continental 'Director of Football' models but which have tended not to be popular in this country. It would be a good discussion for the Supporters Council to have with the club but they would really need to have "the family" there, not just the CEO. I have long been mystified by the fact that football owners often seem to go about appointing managers with a speed and looseness of process which they would never allow for such a vital appointment in their other businesses. Jon Coates account to the Q & A of the appointment of Nathan Jones did nothing to reassure me on that point ! I think Peter Coates now has pretty sound judgement when it comes to hiring managers. I know he was the one pushing for MON. I am a little nervous about Scholes and John Coates. John Coates comes across as a but of a loose cannon. What do you guys think of him. I have seen him at the supporters Q and A sessions and he seems all over the show. My only experience was at that Q & A when I felt he didn't display the gravitas, knowledge and wisdom of his father, but I suppose it's unfair to judge on one showing. I agree with you about Peter Coates judgement. I used to meet him at the FA Council until he hit the age limit a few years ago ( a fate which will befall me next summer ) where I enjoyed talking to him because even if I didn't agree with him, he knew what he was talking about and I always felt I could learn something. He even occasionally rang me up to ask what I thought about an item coming up, which showed his own flexibility of thought. He is held in great respect by FA Council members. Even now ( well not right now because everything is done remotely of course at the moment) Council members sometimes ask me "how's Peter" to which of course I can only reply " I don't know, I don't sit in the Director's box" !!
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Nov 18, 2020 17:05:33 GMT
I think your last sentence poses the interesting question. Is it an outdated model ? Bayern put forward above an alternative model which is more closely aligned to some of the continental 'Director of Football' models but which have tended not to be popular in this country. It would be a good discussion for the Supporters Council to have with the club but they would really need to have "the family" there, not just the CEO. I have long been mystified by the fact that football owners often seem to go about appointing managers with a speed and looseness of process which they would never allow for such a vital appointment in their other businesses. Jon Coates account to the Q & A of the appointment of Nathan Jones did nothing to reassure me on that point ! I think that's it Malcolm - the looseness of the process, with appointments often made with seemingly no thought given to how they'll work with the squad built by their predecessor or how they'll look to build things for the future. There needs to be more of a vision higher up that the manager fits into, rather than them being the ones driving it. That generally seems to be what's stood Southampton in such good stead. The Norwich model also seems light years ahead of ours - it's had mixed success (they were rotten last year but did have a lot of injury problems and didn't spend any money) but it seems very holistic and sensible. trainingground.guru/articles/stuart-webber-climb-of-the-canariesWe just never seem to be at the vanguard of anything like this, we're always behind the curve. Many thanks for posting the link to that article. Very interesting. It seems to have a lot of read overs to our situation doesn't it ? Maybe Bayern is right ( did I really just say that ? ) and we do need that type of model
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Post by ChesterStokie on Nov 18, 2020 17:11:10 GMT
Youre picking on a hypothetical question, posed in response to another hypothetical question and while your point might be valid it's only a best guess. Much in the same way the original question was derived where guesses were made about just what it is Scholes does because it would appear no one knows. Jones isn't a best guess, it's confirmed that he was John Coates' choice. Whatever he does or doesn't do, and clearly a fair bit of this mess is on his hands, the on-pitch/transfer stuff has largely been left to the manager and we've relied too heavily on them if anything. It's an outdated model but one we seem completely wedded to and will be, sadly, for as long as the family is in charge. Well maybe this ‘outdated model’ which relies too heavily on the manager will actually work really well now that we have a really good manager. And then it might not seem like such an ‘outdated model’.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Nov 18, 2020 17:20:59 GMT
Jones isn't a best guess, it's confirmed that he was John Coates' choice. Whatever he does or doesn't do, and clearly a fair bit of this mess is on his hands, the on-pitch/transfer stuff has largely been left to the manager and we've relied too heavily on them if anything. It's an outdated model but one we seem completely wedded to and will be, sadly, for as long as the family is in charge. Well maybe this ‘outdated model’ which relies too heavily on the manager will actually work really well now that we have a really good manager. And then it might not seem like such an ‘outdated model’. That's the point though. The model is almost entirely dependent on the manager. Which puts all the pressure on making sure you get a good one. Great that we've got one, shit that it's taken us three diabolical ones in a row - with increasingly ruinous consequences - before we got it right...
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Post by ChesterStokie on Nov 18, 2020 17:35:58 GMT
Well maybe this ‘outdated model’ which relies too heavily on the manager will actually work really well now that we have a really good manager. And then it might not seem like such an ‘outdated model’. That's the point though. The model is almost entirely dependent on the manager. Which puts all the pressure on making sure you get a good one. Great that we've got one, shit that it's taken us three diabolical ones in a row - with increasingly ruinous consequences - before we got it right... So maybe the answer is to leave the model as it is for now and keep MON in charge for as long as we possibly can (like Man Utd did with SAF), and then when he finally leaves change the model to the Norwich one, and then if / when we get another really good manager, change the model back to the outdated Coates family model. Only joking 😀
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Post by ChesterStokie on Nov 18, 2020 17:36:10 GMT
Double post
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Post by FullerMagic on Nov 18, 2020 19:04:56 GMT
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Post by FullerMagic on Jan 15, 2021 16:01:37 GMT
He's on Radio Stoke tonight
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Post by Edward Tattsyrup on Jan 15, 2021 16:09:12 GMT
He's on Radio Stoke tonight Sorry, Last of the Summer Wine is on Gold
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Post by Trouserdog on Jan 15, 2021 16:09:21 GMT
Well maybe this ‘outdated model’ which relies too heavily on the manager will actually work really well now that we have a really good manager. And then it might not seem like such an ‘outdated model’. That's the point though. The model is almost entirely dependent on the manager. Which puts all the pressure on making sure you get a good one. Great that we've got one, shit that it's taken us three diabolical ones in a row - with increasingly ruinous consequences - before we got it right... Playing devil's advocate, what happens if you appoint a shit Director of Football? Doesn't it just shift the problem elsewhere? Ultimately, the success of a football club depends largely on 3 aspects: Recruitment, Tactics and Man Management. The manager's always going to be responsible for the latter two, but you could end up having a tactically savvy manager, who the players like and give their all for, but who keeps getting duff players foisted upon him by a useless DOF.
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Post by LGH87 on Jan 15, 2021 16:18:37 GMT
He's on Radio Stoke tonight Radio silence for months and then we make a few signings universally backed by everyone and the weasel resufaces. Get to fuck
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 15, 2021 16:20:04 GMT
That's the point though. The model is almost entirely dependent on the manager. Which puts all the pressure on making sure you get a good one. Great that we've got one, shit that it's taken us three diabolical ones in a row - with increasingly ruinous consequences - before we got it right... Playing devil's advocate, what happens if you appoint a shit Director of Football? Doesn't it just shift the problem elsewhere? Ultimately, the success of a football club depends largely on 3 aspects: Recruitment, Tactics and Man Management. The manager's always going to be responsible for the latter two, but you could end up having a tactically savvy manager, who the players like and give their all for, but who keeps getting duff players foisted upon him by a useless DOF. It doesn't work like that though, or at least it shouldn't, as the manager is part of the process and would work with the Sporting Director and the recruitment team, there would need to be a consensus. So the manager wouldn't get players foisted on them. To be fair even with our duff recruitment, I don't think there's been a lot of 'foisting', with the possible exception of Etebo on Rowett. The manager has been heavily involved and in many cases some of our very worst business has been manager driven. Equally with the 'duff Sporting Director' question, again, it should be a collaborative effort - he's there to essentially bridge the business and footballing sides, and it's a team effort rather than one man having too much power.
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Post by Pugsley on Jan 15, 2021 16:20:04 GMT
He's on Radio Stoke tonight Radio silence for months and then we make a few signings universally backed by everyone and the weasel resufaces. Get to fuck Nah, massive coincidence
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Post by gingerninja on Jan 15, 2021 16:20:18 GMT
Should be interesting. I am sure he will manage to dampen our enthusiasm that a striker may be in the agenda.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jan 15, 2021 16:47:55 GMT
He's been well prepped trust me, we've been running lines for hours now so expect Tone to be in a spunky mood this evening.
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Post by scfc75 on Jan 15, 2021 16:53:36 GMT
He's been well prepped trust me, we've been running lines for hours now so expect Tone to be in a spunky mood this evening. I love Sir Tony, but I never want to see him and spunk in the same sentence ever again.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Jan 15, 2021 17:00:11 GMT
Should be interesting. I am sure he will manage to dampen our enthusiasm that a striker may be in the agenda. A striker would be nice, but do you see one actually coming in? I'm not necessarily expecting anyone else to sign now, more likely 2-3 out the door though.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jan 15, 2021 17:00:47 GMT
He's on Radio Stoke tonight Sorry, Last of the Summer Wine is on Gold Never mind that Keeping Up Appearances is on! Can’t miss Onslow
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jan 15, 2021 17:04:08 GMT
Should be interesting. I am sure he will manage to dampen our enthusiasm that a striker may be in the agenda. A striker would be nice, but do you see one actually coming in? I'm not necessarily expecting anyone else to sign now, more likely 2-3 out the door though. [ MON would say “it’d be great to get a striker in the building but our hands are tied in this window. I feel the business we’ve done will have a great impact within the building and if we can someone else in the building it’ll be a great window, especially for the building”
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Post by wherty on Jan 15, 2021 17:19:36 GMT
He's on Radio Stoke tonight Radio silence for months and then we make a few signings universally backed by everyone and the weasel resufaces. Get to fuck Pencilled in for tonights show weeks ago.
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Post by questionable on Jan 15, 2021 17:29:42 GMT
I bet the questions that are asked were also compiled weeks ago, if this bloke rang me explaining I’d won the lottery I’d still hate him immensely.
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Post by lordb on Jan 15, 2021 17:31:42 GMT
Should be interesting. I am sure he will manage to dampen our enthusiasm that a striker may be in the agenda. A striker would be nice, but do you see one actually coming in? I'm not necessarily expecting anyone else to sign now, more likely 2-3 out the door though. yes I do expect a striker, on loan might be last minute I'd guess
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Post by Caerwrangonpotter on Jan 15, 2021 17:33:03 GMT
Sorry but that image makes me think.....Would I buy a used car from this man?
Honest Tone....No chance !
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Post by FullerMagic on Jan 15, 2021 19:10:08 GMT
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