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Post by datguy on Sept 18, 2020 7:57:19 GMT
I’ll keep banging this drum. It’s fairly obvious but I’m surprised so many still defend Batth about it. You need to play defenders that can play as footballers. Really is simple as that.
Souttar and Collins and to a certain extent Bruno all match that description.
If he’s going with a back 3 on Saturday then the same 3 as last night should start for my money.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Sept 18, 2020 8:07:12 GMT
They can't pass a ball like Souttar did tonight so I'd replace them on that alone, it makes the world of difference. There was nothing special about Souttars passing tonight, a few misplaced ones like any other defender. He'll no doubt get his chance when the Baath's form drops but at the minute he's playing well. He was very good defensively tonight though and given we're playing again midweek, he'll be saved for then. It doesn't have to be special to be better than Batth, he panics and lumps it.
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Post by chiswickpotter on Sept 18, 2020 8:24:50 GMT
This system suits our personnel better. Very rarely have we played well as a flat 4 in the last 2 years even under MON. We got our best results as a 3 but we were missing a CDM. Mikel will make a difference there most league games. The hard bit has always been to be expansive with a 3 and a CDM and to simultaneously pose a threat. We need at least one of 3 at the back to be a ball player or the CDM to hit a pass. Neither BMI, Baath or Chester have that vision. The energy and vision in front of them is key now. I think Tymon is a Clucas back-up or plays in McLeans role, he looked tireless tonight. The mobility of Brown and Ty playing off Fletcher, who is a very clever experienced forward is my preferred choice. Gregory and Vokes don't offer enough and Ince just seems surplus now. I guess it's useful to keep one maybe to throw in the mixer, if we need to, but I'd let one of those three go for another pacy player. Playing BMI, Chester, Baath, Gregory and Vokes in the same team is too one dimensional. One more in and I think we are good to go. We have 2x like for like in most positions. We finally look like a team that is being properly coached. Players understand the roles and are motivated to hold their 1st team places. MON has transformed the club from a dire position a truly incredible achievement given what he inherited and the fact we needed a result in almost every game since he arrived last term. I agree but it is due to personnel. We didn’t have a mobile target man or players to go alongside him and we lacked a CDM to protect a back four sand full backs. All has now changed and Brown and Campbell if we play attackers narrow or McClean and Brown if wider can support Fletcher. The midfield can be a CDM and 2 in front with narrow forwards and a 2 plus a number 10 if wider. Then after last night we have better centre back options for a 4. The main conclusion is this manager if the first in a long time, since around 2011, who has bought players to play specific roles within a squad. We now have quality in depth everywhere (except fullback) and the ability to play 2 systems. And he has done it with only 7 signings of which 5 were free.
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Post by fazza90 on Sept 18, 2020 14:14:43 GMT
Agree it's a tough choice for MoN now who to put at centre back but I'd be disappointed not to see at least one of Souttar or Collins in the starting line up on Sunday. They're both clearly a step up on Chester and arguabley to Batth.
As for Souttars situation, why would you want to sit on the bench for us when you can easily play 90 minutes at this level week in week out. He's more than proven himself out on loan and needs to be playing and I wouldn't blame him if he wanted out but really hope we make space for him as a regular starter.
It's ridiculous how many centre halves we have on the books, we could easily offload 2 straight away and I'd get rid of Chester & Lindsay.
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Post by robwahlmann on Sept 18, 2020 14:23:48 GMT
As long as we're still in the cup with two games every week we actually need two teams, it's a long season!
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Post by Caerwrangonpotter on Sept 18, 2020 14:53:18 GMT
Great Stoke defensive performance with young players? Am I on the right Forum?!
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Sept 18, 2020 15:01:30 GMT
Agree it's a tough choice for MoN now who to put at centre back but I'd be disappointed not to see at least one of Souttar or Collins in the starting line up on Sunday. They're both clearly a step up on Chester and arguabley to Batth. As for Souttars situation, why would you want to sit on the bench for us when you can easily play 90 minutes at this level week in week out. He's more than proven himself out on loan and needs to be playing and I wouldn't blame him if he wanted out but really hope we make space for him as a regular starter. It's ridiculous how many centre halves we have on the books, we could easily offload 2 straight away and I'd get rid of Chester & Lindsay. I don't think MON has really had a chance to look at Collins and Souttar until now, so I won't blame him for signing Chester but clearly both Souttar and Collins are ready and the way Souttar played last night with his confidence on the ball.. if I was the Wolves manager I'd have been making enquiries after the game.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 20:17:08 GMT
Agree it's a tough choice for MoN now who to put at centre back but I'd be disappointed not to see at least one of Souttar or Collins in the starting line up on Sunday. They're both clearly a step up on Chester and arguabley to Batth. As for Souttars situation, why would you want to sit on the bench for us when you can easily play 90 minutes at this level week in week out. He's more than proven himself out on loan and needs to be playing and I wouldn't blame him if he wanted out but really hope we make space for him as a regular starter. It's ridiculous how many centre halves we have on the books, we could easily offload 2 straight away and I'd get rid of Chester & Lindsay. I don't think MON has really had a chance to look at Collins and Souttar until now, so I won't blame him for signing Chester but clearly both Souttar and Collins are ready and the way Souttar played last night with his confidence on the ball.. if I was the Wolves manager I'd have been making enquiries after the game. It might be acceptable that he signed Chester on loan, but signing him permanently only makes a big squad bigger, which is the exact opposite of what O'Neill has claimed he wanted again and again.
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Post by jeycov on Sept 18, 2020 20:47:45 GMT
I don't think MON has really had a chance to look at Collins and Souttar until now, so I won't blame him for signing Chester but clearly both Souttar and Collins are ready and the way Souttar played last night with his confidence on the ball.. if I was the Wolves manager I'd have been making enquiries after the game. It might be acceptable that he signed Chester on loan, but signing him permanently only makes a big squad bigger, which is the exact opposite of what O'Neill has claimed he wanted again and again. Only a 12 month contract?
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Post by prettything on Sept 18, 2020 20:47:56 GMT
I don't think MON has really had a chance to look at Collins and Souttar until now, so I won't blame him for signing Chester but clearly both Souttar and Collins are ready and the way Souttar played last night with his confidence on the ball.. if I was the Wolves manager I'd have been making enquiries after the game. It might be acceptable that he signed Chester on loan, but signing him permanently only makes a big squad bigger, which is the exact opposite of what O'Neill has claimed he wanted again and again. I’m ok with Chester signing, actually. The young lads did great on Thursday, and I’m sure if Danny or Chester bugger up, one, or both, of the young lads will get their chance. Love the fact both young lads are coming through, but all this slagging off of our current senior, regulars, is naive at best. They will get their chance, just like Dean Crowe, Paul Connor and that Belgium kid, many had a hard on for all those years ago, did.
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Post by pmjh on Sept 18, 2020 20:53:24 GMT
Agree it's a tough choice for MoN now who to put at centre back but I'd be disappointed not to see at least one of Souttar or Collins in the starting line up on Sunday. They're both clearly a step up on Chester and arguabley to Batth. As for Souttars situation, why would you want to sit on the bench for us when you can easily play 90 minutes at this level week in week out. He's more than proven himself out on loan and needs to be playing and I wouldn't blame him if he wanted out but really hope we make space for him as a regular starter. It's ridiculous how many centre halves we have on the books, we could easily offload 2 straight away and I'd get rid of Chester & Lindsay. Shawcross might never play again and Wimmer hopefully wont. If you got rid of Lindsay and Chester that would leave only 4 centre Halves for 3 places in a 3.5.2 . That's nowhere near enough in a minimum , compressed, 50 game season. I'd get rid of Lindsay, leaving us with 5. Ryan would be a bonus if he were ever fully fit.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Sept 18, 2020 20:56:06 GMT
Those saying they'll need a rest, does Indi not start on Sunday then?
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Post by prettything on Sept 18, 2020 21:34:10 GMT
I don't think MON has really had a chance to look at Collins and Souttar until now, so I won't blame him for signing Chester but clearly both Souttar and Collins are ready and the way Souttar played last night with his confidence on the ball.. if I was the Wolves manager I'd have been making enquiries after the game. It might be acceptable that he signed Chester on loan, but signing him permanently only makes a big squad bigger, which is the exact opposite of what O'Neill has claimed he wanted again and again. We have seen both young players play their first full debut, and be part of a great result. Great stuff. Signing Chester does indeed make the squad bigger, but he also contributed to the upward curve of a defence becoming stronger, conceding less goals, whilst adding experience. Both young players were, and are, an unknown factor going into this season, so the resigning of Chester makes perfect sense. We now have 5 centre backs competing for three places, (excluding Shawcross for obvious reasons, and Lyndsey) I cant find fault in that.
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Post by prettything on Sept 18, 2020 21:35:32 GMT
Plus, Chester has signed for one season, which would be the same as a year long loan in any case!
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Post by prettything on Sept 18, 2020 21:40:28 GMT
It’s also quite funny that many now think Souttar is now the messiah. It was only a few weeks ago many were saying that he was too slow and cumbersome for the championship.
With Collins, the same. It wasn’t until Man United were rumoured to be in for him, that people were mooting for his inclusion.
With both, I reckon 95% hadn’t ever seen both play.
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Post by northernstokie on Sept 18, 2020 21:45:07 GMT
We need experience to help aid the development of the 2 younger guys. Its a long season n with drop in form. Injuries. All will play
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Post by PenkPonther on Sept 18, 2020 22:27:20 GMT
Can we all just take a moment, once again, to admire Souttar's statistics at Full Senior International level for Australia...
Games played 2...
...Goals scored 4!
(Videprinter confirmation: FOUR!)
Possibly giving him the most prolific goals-per-game ratio of all-time at International level?!? 🤔😲😆
Then perhaps enjoy asking your friends "which current Stoke City player has scored four International goals in just 2 games played?", and see how many guesses they need..! 🙂
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 2:33:37 GMT
Can we all just take a moment, once again, to admire Souttar's statistics at Full Senior International level for Australia... Games played 2... ...Goals scored 4! (Videprinter confirmation: FOUR!) Possibly giving him the most prolific goals-per-game ratio of all-time at International level?!? 🤔😲😆 Then perhaps enjoy asking your friends "which current Stoke City player has scored four International goals in just 2 games played?", and see how many guesses they need..! 🙂 I think 2 were against Chinese Taipei. At 6 foot 6 I’m not surprised by that at all. The other was versus Nepal. His wiki hasn’t been updated, but one of his two versus Nepal was deemed an own goal. 3 in 2 is still damn good. He seemed to finally get a few club goals last year as well.
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Post by PenkPonther on Sept 19, 2020 8:00:40 GMT
It's definitely confirmed as 4 goals now. 👍
Wikipedia is now stating "scored twice in a 5–0 win; the fourth goal was initially recorded as a Nepalese own goal,but eventually was awarded to Souttar by FIFA. Souttar would go on to score two more goals for Australia in a 7–1 win against Chinese Taipei".
The websites Transfermarkt and Socceroos.com are also now confirming he's got 4 goals in 2 games! 👍
Oh and don't worry about the quality of the opposition. I have it on good authority that when the Aussies do eventually play against the likes of Brazil, they will change their style, play it on the deck a bit more... and Harry will be banging even more goals in!!! 😁
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Post by robwahlmann on Sept 19, 2020 8:09:35 GMT
I’ll keep banging this drum. It’s fairly obvious but I’m surprised so many still defend Batth about it. You need to play defenders that can play as footballers. Really is simple as that. Souttar and Collins and to a certain extent Bruno all match that description. If he’s going with a back 3 on Saturday then the same 3 as last night should start for my money. I hope he gradually will take Chester's place in the team, and Collins gradually will replace Batth. Still I think the two of them together are too inexperienced, but they are both still very young as well. They also had a very good game on Thursday though, but they need to reproduce performances like that to stake a claim.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 10:21:20 GMT
he also contributed to the upward curve of a defence becoming stronger, conceding less goals, whilst adding experience. He did? Could have fooled me in Leeds.
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Post by fazza90 on Sept 19, 2020 10:33:12 GMT
Agree it's a tough choice for MoN now who to put at centre back but I'd be disappointed not to see at least one of Souttar or Collins in the starting line up on Sunday. They're both clearly a step up on Chester and arguabley to Batth. As for Souttars situation, why would you want to sit on the bench for us when you can easily play 90 minutes at this level week in week out. He's more than proven himself out on loan and needs to be playing and I wouldn't blame him if he wanted out but really hope we make space for him as a regular starter. It's ridiculous how many centre halves we have on the books, we could easily offload 2 straight away and I'd get rid of Chester & Lindsay. Shawcross might never play again and Wimmer hopefully wont. If you got rid of Lindsay and Chester that would leave only 4 centre Halves for 3 places in a 3.5.2 . That's nowhere near enough in a minimum , compressed, 50 game season. I'd get rid of Lindsay, leaving us with 5. Ryan would be a bonus if he were ever fully fit. Wimmer - I'd completely forgot about him. So we've got 8 first team centre halves on our books at the moment. But back to Souttar yeah he looks very impressive and deserves more starts.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 19, 2020 11:27:54 GMT
It might be acceptable that he signed Chester on loan, but signing him permanently only makes a big squad bigger, which is the exact opposite of what O'Neill has claimed he wanted again and again. I’m ok with Chester signing, actually. The young lads did great on Thursday, and I’m sure if Danny or Chester bugger up, one, or both, of the young lads will get their chance. Love the fact both young lads are coming through, but all this slagging off of our current senior, regulars, is naive at best. They will get their chance, just like Dean Crowe, Paul Connor and that Belgium kid, many had a hard on for all those years ago, did. All the slagging off of our record breaking defence last season is naive yeah. 😂😂
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 19, 2020 11:30:20 GMT
It’s also quite funny that many now think Souttar is now the messiah. It was only a few weeks ago many were saying that he was too slow and cumbersome for the championship. With Collins, the same. It wasn’t until Man United were rumoured to be in for him, that people were mooting for his inclusion. With both, I reckon 95% hadn’t ever seen both play. Point 1 Souttar - they were talking shite and probably because the manager wasn’t enthusing over him so best not to go against his view because God forbid we don’t have sheep on here. Point 2 - probably true for most
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Post by pottersrule on Sept 19, 2020 11:49:29 GMT
Agree it's a tough choice for MoN now who to put at centre back but I'd be disappointed not to see at least one of Souttar or Collins in the starting line up on Sunday. They're both clearly a step up on Chester and arguabley to Batth. As for Souttars situation, why would you want to sit on the bench for us when you can easily play 90 minutes at this level week in week out. He's more than proven himself out on loan and needs to be playing and I wouldn't blame him if he wanted out but really hope we make space for him as a regular starter. It's ridiculous how many centre halves we have on the books, we could easily offload 2 straight away and I'd get rid of Chester & Lindsay. Does anybody want Lindsay?
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Post by potterpaul on Sept 20, 2020 0:45:06 GMT
It’s also quite funny that many now think Souttar is now the messiah. It was only a few weeks ago many were saying that he was too slow and cumbersome for the championship. With Collins, the same. It wasn’t until Man United were rumoured to be in for him, that people were mooting for his inclusion. With both, I reckon 95% hadn’t ever seen both play. Point 1 Souttar - they were talking shite and probably because the manager wasn’t enthusing over him so best not to go against his view because God forbid we don’t have sheep on here. Point 2 - probably true for most Not forgetting it was only in July/August I was reminding posters that Souttar was part of our set up. God knows how many were making defensive lists without his name.
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Post by NassauDave on Sept 20, 2020 4:00:56 GMT
Agree it's a tough choice for MoN now who to put at centre back but I'd be disappointed not to see at least one of Souttar or Collins in the starting line up on Sunday. They're both clearly a step up on Chester and arguabley to Batth. As for Souttars situation, why would you want to sit on the bench for us when you can easily play 90 minutes at this level week in week out. He's more than proven himself out on loan and needs to be playing and I wouldn't blame him if he wanted out but really hope we make space for him as a regular starter. It's ridiculous how many centre halves we have on the books, we could easily offload 2 straight away and I'd get rid of Chester & Lindsay. Does anybody want Lindsay? Alec?
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Sept 20, 2020 14:52:22 GMT
Baath and Chester showing exactly what we saw from them many times last season. Can't handle the pace and physicality, can't play the ball out.
The other night Souttar and Collins put in performances two levels about them. We've paid the price for not playing pur best centre backs
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 20, 2020 14:53:39 GMT
Baath and Chester showing exactly what we saw from them many times last season. Can't handle the pace and physicality, can't play the ball out. The other night Souttar and Collins put in performances two levels about them. We've paid the price for not playing pur best centre backs Batth and Chester have to play midweek with Collins and Souttar in at the weekend.
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Post by Pirate on Sept 20, 2020 14:56:27 GMT
Baath and Chester showing exactly what we saw from them many times last season. Can't handle the pace and physicality, can't play the ball out. The other night Souttar and Collins put in performances two levels about them. We've paid the price for not playing pur best centre backs Agreed, time to give those 2 young lads an extended opportunity to play & afford them a little of the leeway Baath & Chester have had to keep there shirts. The fact that its painfully obvious that Chester is probably our 6th best CB really crystallizes what a poor decision it was to give him a deal.
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