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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 29, 2020 8:40:17 GMT
They're certainly convicted of more that's for sure! And killed disproportionately more during arrests. But I agree, the societal aspects of black lives generally in a predominantly white country like the US is significant in that. Considering you said it's "more complicated than putting raw statistics" (I agree) you seem to be remarkably quick to use them to conclude black people are "killed disproportionately more during arrests". That's on the basis of 1 in 10000 vs 1 in 12000 - a difference of 0.002%. On the other hand you seem reluctant to accept the raw statistics when the data fall a different way. You want to highlight other things like overall arrest rates, and prefer phrases like "get convicted of" rather than "commit" crimes. If you're going to accept that the raw statistics show that "black people are killed disproportionately more during arrests", I'm afraid there is an awful lot of data in those links that could be summarised by somebody uncharitable in a way which is "not a good look" for black Americans. Feel free to expound on some of your hinted at 'not a good look' for black Americans theories, they're bound to get a good reception from a certain crowd on here! Meanwhile, have a read of this, especially the Exec Summary. It's quite old but I wouldn't have thought much has changed in ten years. www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nccdglobal.org/sites/default/files/publication_pdf/created-equal.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwidybO5_7_rAhVirHEKHZbHDKUQFjAJegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw0Kta7Xt9m6xHsnrv0EZI5aOr this more recent report: www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/From it: Such broad statistics mask the racial disparity that pervades the U.S. criminal justice system, and for African Americans in particular. African Americans are more likely than white Americans to be arrested; [more likely to die while being arrested - my insertion] once arrested, they are more likely to be convicted; and once convicted, and they are more likely to experience lengthy prison sentences. African-American adults are 5.9 times as likely to be incarcerated than whites and Hispanics are 3.1 times as likely. As of 2001, one of every three black boys born in that year could expect to go to prison in his lifetime, as could one of every six Latinos—compared to one of every seventeen white boys. Racial and ethnic disparities among women are less substantial than among men but remain prevalent.
The bit in bold is why I said they are 'certainly convicted of more crimes' rather than used your phrase 'commit more'. Perhaps they're just not as good at getting away with it?! Personally, I see it as institutional discrimination in the criminal justice system in the US (no shit!) which is indicative of broader American society as a whole. But maybe I should just accept that the figures are simply not a good look for non-whites or even that nonwhites are just, you know, bad people? |
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 29, 2020 9:31:53 GMT
Considering you said it's "more complicated than putting raw statistics" (I agree) you seem to be remarkably quick to use them to conclude black people are "killed disproportionately more during arrests". That's on the basis of 1 in 10000 vs 1 in 12000 - a difference of 0.002%. On the other hand you seem reluctant to accept the raw statistics when the data fall a different way. You want to highlight other things like overall arrest rates, and prefer phrases like "get convicted of" rather than "commit" crimes. If you're going to accept that the raw statistics show that "black people are killed disproportionately more during arrests", I'm afraid there is an awful lot of data in those links that could be summarised by somebody uncharitable in a way which is "not a good look" for black Americans. Feel free to expound on some of your hinted at 'not a good look' for black Americans theories, they're bound to get a good reception from a certain crowd on here! Meanwhile, have a read of this, especially the Exec Summary. It's quite old but I wouldn't have thought much has changed in ten years. www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nccdglobal.org/sites/default/files/publication_pdf/created-equal.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwidybO5_7_rAhVirHEKHZbHDKUQFjAJegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw0Kta7Xt9m6xHsnrv0EZI5aOr this more recent report: www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/From it: Such broad statistics mask the racial disparity that pervades the U.S. criminal justice system, and for African Americans in particular. African Americans are more likely than white Americans to be arrested; [more likely to die while being arrested - my insertion] once arrested, they are more likely to be convicted; and once convicted, and they are more likely to experience lengthy prison sentences. African-American adults are 5.9 times as likely to be incarcerated than whites and Hispanics are 3.1 times as likely. As of 2001, one of every three black boys born in that year could expect to go to prison in his lifetime, as could one of every six Latinos—compared to one of every seventeen white boys. Racial and ethnic disparities among women are less substantial than among men but remain prevalent.
The bit in bold is why I said they are 'certainly convicted of more crimes' rather than used your phrase 'commit more'. Perhaps they're just not as good at getting away with it?! Personally, I see it as institutional discrimination in the criminal justice system in the US (no shit!) which is indicative of broader American society as a whole. But maybe I should just accept that the figures are simply not a good look for non-whites or even that nonwhites are just, you know, bad people? They aren’t the only two options. Kind of the point I’m trying to make. |
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Post by dutchstokie on Aug 29, 2020 9:34:06 GMT
NOT ONE OF THE SHOOTINGS OF ANY GROUPS OTHER THAN THE BLACKS HAS RESULTED IN ANY RIOTS OR PUBLIC DISORDER WHATSOEVER. Perhaps that's an issue in itself? BLM is a front for something that needs to happen to bring humanity back into the centre of the ring. However, it's also a stitch up. If it should fail in its mission the black man becomes the scapegoat for the collateral damage. All lives matter, like it or not, there's nothing you or anybody else can do or say to change that. Why are we all wedded to the idea that capitalism or communism are the only options? They are constructs. The world has changed immeasurably over the years, in the sense that we as a species have unlocked and continue to unlock knowledge of the universe that we are a part of. We aren't existing within the universe, we are organic organisms that have grown with it not in it. Combining science and faith, I believe would be a great starting point. One church in which you can practice any form of faith of your choosing alongside others that do the same without fear of any sort of recriminations. Tolerance is the wrong word by design. Tolerance has a breaking point, acceptance is something else and that's why it's a word we dont see or hear all that often, unlike the word 'submit' which is everywhere. Take from that what you will. To summarise, we are better than what we are told we are. The world we live in right now is designed to limit us, to make us servile to the great machine Messiah in the sky. If we could lay down our swords, shut our mouths, foster self respect, self love and self restraint in ourselves and others we could be bathing in the stars in no time. No hunger, no impotent rage, no thirst, no ego trip, no reason to do another man's bidding. Nothing but humanity. It's time to re-think what life is and what it could be if we were to allow it, if we wede to give ourselves and others the permission to live.[/quote] "Imagine all the people, living life in peace……… You may say Im a dreamer, but Im not the only one, I hope some day you'll join us, And the World will live as one" Mr Lennon did have a point after all…………….. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 29, 2020 9:56:02 GMT
Feel free to expound on some of your hinted at 'not a good look' for black Americans theories, they're bound to get a good reception from a certain crowd on here! Meanwhile, have a read of this, especially the Exec Summary. It's quite old but I wouldn't have thought much has changed in ten years. www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nccdglobal.org/sites/default/files/publication_pdf/created-equal.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwidybO5_7_rAhVirHEKHZbHDKUQFjAJegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw0Kta7Xt9m6xHsnrv0EZI5aOr this more recent report: www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/From it: Such broad statistics mask the racial disparity that pervades the U.S. criminal justice system, and for African Americans in particular. African Americans are more likely than white Americans to be arrested; [more likely to die while being arrested - my insertion] once arrested, they are more likely to be convicted; and once convicted, and they are more likely to experience lengthy prison sentences. African-American adults are 5.9 times as likely to be incarcerated than whites and Hispanics are 3.1 times as likely. As of 2001, one of every three black boys born in that year could expect to go to prison in his lifetime, as could one of every six Latinos—compared to one of every seventeen white boys. Racial and ethnic disparities among women are less substantial than among men but remain prevalent.
The bit in bold is why I said they are 'certainly convicted of more crimes' rather than used your phrase 'commit more'. Perhaps they're just not as good at getting away with it?! Personally, I see it as institutional discrimination in the criminal justice system in the US (no shit!) which is indicative of broader American society as a whole. But maybe I should just accept that the figures are simply not a good look for non-whites or even that nonwhites are just, you know, bad people? They aren’t the only two options. Kind of the point I’m trying to make. OK, so whereas I see issues of institutional discrimination against certain sections of society (non-whites) in the US as a reflection of the way those same sections live and are treated in general in the US, your comments about the crime figures being higher for non-whites not being a good look for them appear to be saying that we should also consider that those same sections might just be more prone to criminality because the figures for those sections are higher than for others? Or did you mean something else? |
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 29, 2020 11:04:18 GMT
They aren’t the only two options. Kind of the point I’m trying to make. OK, so whereas I see issues of institutional discrimination against certain sections of society (non-whites) in the US as a reflection of the way those same sections live and are treated in general in the US, your comments about the crime figures being higher for non-whites not being a good look for them appear to be saying that we should also consider that those same sections might just be more prone to criminality because the figures for those sections are higher than for others? Or did you mean something else? Well, it’s kind of what I meant. I’m trying to warn of the dangers of drawing sweeping conclusions from raw statistics either way. For every one person who looks at that data and says “aha! Therefore the US police force is institutionally racist!” there is a person who looks at that data and says “aha! You see, blacks are more prone to criminality!” Both of those viewpoints are equally (in)valid on the basis of the data alone. The reality is just much more complex. Black people proportionally commit much more crime, and particularly violent crime, than white people in the US, I mean there’s simply no doubt about that. Does that mean black people are more “prone” to criminality? No. Is it a result of higher rates of poverty in black communities? Probably. Does it mean there are serious drug and gang issues within “the black community” that contribute to the likelihood of a young man ending up in trouble? Probably. Is the overrepresentation of blacks in prisons simply a reflection of the proportion of crime committed, or is it that America’s perverse criminal justice system disproportionately affects the poor, among whom blacks are also overrepresented? Almost certainly both. Does that mean America’s criminal justice system is “racist”? No. Etc etc. There are conversations to be had. Some of the figures relating to young black men’s likelihood of ending up in prison (which you alluded to above) are horrifying. Something - more precisely many things - need to be done, but one thing I really don’t think helps is simply pointing the finger at American society and institutions and roundly decrying them as racist and the root cause of all the problems, which is the narrative BLM want to push. The representation of this Jacob Blake incident is an artefact of that narrative and it isn’t going to help anyone. Anyway went off on one a bit there.. I’m not saying you’re “guilty” of any of these things btw, hopefully you understand what I’m getting at.. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 29, 2020 11:44:54 GMT
Yep. I know the reality is much more complex and one set of stats doesn't also take into account much more wide-ranging social drivers.
But from all of what we know about life in America, it's fair to say that, in general, it doesn't produce good outcomes for non-whites. In general.
I think anyone can see that. And then when you drill down into the various aspects of life for non-whites, you find all these kinds of statistics. I mean, the fat that one in three African Americans born in 2001 can expect jail time is a pretty horrific stat.
When you think about it, if you really were inclined to believe that there were inherent differences between the races which lead to different outcomes, such as criminality, regardless of context, wouldn't you be desperate to see any forms of discrimination removed? So that you can then say, see, all things being equal, and they're still the problem. In which case, those folk on here who are always criticising any move towards equality of treatment or highlighting disparity of treatment are really shooting themselves in the foot. Ironic.
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 29, 2020 11:59:49 GMT
Yep. I know the reality is much more complex and one set of stats doesn't also take into account much more wide-ranging social drivers. But from all of what we know about life in America, it's fair to say that, in general, it doesn't produce good outcomes for non-whites. In general. I think anyone can see that. And then when you drill down into the various aspects of life for non-whites, you find all these kinds of statistics. I mean, the fat that one in three African Americans born in 2001 can expect jail time is a pretty horrific stat. When you think about it, if you really were inclined to believe that there were inherent differences between the races which lead to different outcomes, such as criminality, regardless of context, wouldn't you be desperate to see any forms of discrimination removed? So that you can then say, see, all things being equal, and they're still the problem. In which case, those folk on here who are always criticising any move towards equality of treatment or highlighting disparity of treatment are really shooting themselves in the foot. Ironic. Just to clarify, the point about black people being inherently more prone to criminality was just to illustrate the absurdity of drawing a conclusion like that simply from the crime data. I’m not suggesting it’s in any way a valuable or reasonable point. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 29, 2020 12:02:13 GMT
Yep. I know the reality is much more complex and one set of stats doesn't also take into account much more wide-ranging social drivers. But from all of what we know about life in America, it's fair to say that, in general, it doesn't produce good outcomes for non-whites. In general. I think anyone can see that. And then when you drill down into the various aspects of life for non-whites, you find all these kinds of statistics. I mean, the fat that one in three African Americans born in 2001 can expect jail time is a pretty horrific stat. When you think about it, if you really were inclined to believe that there were inherent differences between the races which lead to different outcomes, such as criminality, regardless of context, wouldn't you be desperate to see any forms of discrimination removed? So that you can then say, see, all things being equal, and they're still the problem. In which case, those folk on here who are always criticising any move towards equality of treatment or highlighting disparity of treatment are really shooting themselves in the foot. Ironic. Just to clarify, the point about black people being inherently more prone to criminality was just to illustrate the absurdity of drawing a conclusion like that simply from the crime data. I’m not suggesting it’s in any way a valuable or reasonable point. I don't dispute that. However, you need to be careful. I think that distinction will be lost on a sizeable proportion of posters on here. |
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 29, 2020 12:14:52 GMT
Just to clarify, the point about black people being inherently more prone to criminality was just to illustrate the absurdity of drawing a conclusion like that simply from the crime data. I’m not suggesting it’s in any way a valuable or reasonable point. I don't dispute that. However, you need to be careful. I think that distinction will be lost on a sizeable proportion of posters on here. Haha, the entire reason I brought it up was to demonstrate that it’s you that needs to be careful 🙂 |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 29, 2020 17:44:12 GMT
I don't dispute that. However, you need to be careful. I think that distinction will be lost on a sizeable proportion of posters on here. Haha, the entire reason I brought it up was to demonstrate that it’s you that needs to be careful 🙂 OK. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one  |
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