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Post by Gods on Aug 26, 2020 20:26:13 GMT
Have we really not got a thread on this yet?
It didn't look great did it?
What on earth might be the explanation for pumping 7 bullets in to his back as he opened his car door ?
I can only think the police will say they thought he was reaching for a gun.
Meantime it's all gone off in Kenosha, Wisconsin, where this 'right to bear arms' thing seriously ups the ante!
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Post by Billy the kid on Aug 26, 2020 22:15:46 GMT
Have we really not got a thread on this yet? It didn't look good did it? What on earth might be the explanation for pumping 7 bullets in to his back as he opened his car door ? I can only think the police will say they thought he was reaching for a gun. Off to google what you are on about
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Post by cobhamstokey on Aug 26, 2020 22:29:29 GMT
Looks like the NBA have gone on strike out of protest so won’t be playing tonight. Likewise the MLB.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Aug 26, 2020 22:30:13 GMT
Have we really not got a thread on this yet? It didn't look good did it? What on earth might be the explanation for pumping 7 bullets in to his back as he opened his car door ? I can only think the police will say they thought he was reaching for a gun. It’s absolutely sickening. Nothing has really come out about the circumstances yet has it? I mean if the copper has just shot him 7 times in the back then it’s a clear case of attempted murder/murder depending on the outcome. It’s the last thing the world needs. I see the NBA has been abandoned tonight due to this as the players have boycotted.
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 27, 2020 3:15:22 GMT
Have we really not got a thread on this yet? It didn't look great did it? What on earth might be the explanation for pumping 7 bullets in to his back as he opened his car door ? I can only think the police will say they thought he was reaching for a gun. Meantime it's all gone off in Kenosha, Wisconsin, where this 'right to bear arms' thing seriously ups the ante! There will be an investigation of course, but the idea that the cop “shot an unarmed man in the back as he walked away” is about the most disingenuous summary of what appeared to happen as possible. Not that I’m saying that’s what you are doing, it’s just that’s what the received wisdom is. The cops are clearly trying to apprehend him. He is ignoring them as he walks back round the front of his truck. They are walking after him, clearly agitated and demanding he stop. In America, if a guy is ignoring a police request to stop, opening the door of his vehicle and getting/reaching in, there is a fair fucking possibility that he is going for a weapon. As he gets/reaches in, he appears to turn round, a cop grabs out towards him and that’s when the officers shoot. It doesn’t actually look like he was shot in the back to me, but the view is obscured by the car door. In a way it doesn’t really matter if the cops had reason to believe he was reaching for a weapon. Not that I’m saying they did. I’m not exonerating the cops, there should and will be an investigation. But it shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone if, as in the vast majority of these cases, it’s decided they had reasonable grounds to use the force they did.
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Post by felonious on Aug 27, 2020 5:11:51 GMT
I struggle to find any reason why this should be news in the UK. It's gung ho, gun happy USA with it's special brand of law enforcement, race relations, criminals with intent and as distanced from this country as you can possibly get
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Post by xchpotter on Aug 27, 2020 6:10:50 GMT
Understandably only showing the footage up to a certain point, but I couldn’t see a situation over here where armed police follow a man at gun point, walking, and then allowing him into his vehicle without a less lethal option available, i.e. Taser. It just beggars belief and through the insane actions over there, will get an almighty ripple effect over here.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Aug 27, 2020 6:33:31 GMT
The US is really messed up. This is why we’re very lucky in the U.K. that we don’t have laws where it’s very easy to buy firearms and where only a small number of officers are armed. It only takes a few bad eggs to cause this sort of mayhem. Thankfully over here firearms officers receive extensive training and are physiologically tested before they’re allowed to carry a gun. This is why you simply can’t compare us with the US. Shootings over here involving Police are very, very rare. I only remember one over the last 5 years. The account of what happened with this incident seems to be changing on an hourly basis. What I would say however is that firing seven shots goes way beyond reasonable force. I can hand on heart say I could never see anything like this happening in the U.K.
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 27, 2020 7:05:39 GMT
The US is really messed up. This is why we’re very lucky in the U.K. that we don’t have laws where it’s very easy to buy firearms and where only a small number of officers are armed. It only takes a few bad eggs to cause this sort of mayhem. Thankfully over here firearms officers receive extensive training and are physiologically tested before they’re allowed to carry a gun. This is why you simply can’t compare us with the US. Shootings over here involving Police are very, very rare. I only remember one over the last 5 years. The account of what happened with this incident seems to be changing on an hourly basis. What I would say however is that firing seven shots goes way beyond reasonable force. I can hand on heart say I could never see anything like this happening in the U.K. Unless your a Brazilian train traveller
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Post by Gods on Aug 27, 2020 7:07:58 GMT
I think I heard on the breakfast news the police are claiming he was reaching for a knife in the door of the car.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 27, 2020 7:26:43 GMT
The US is really messed up. This is why we’re very lucky in the U.K. that we don’t have laws where it’s very easy to buy firearms and where only a small number of officers are armed. It only takes a few bad eggs to cause this sort of mayhem. Thankfully over here firearms officers receive extensive training and are physiologically tested before they’re allowed to carry a gun. This is why you simply can’t compare us with the US. Shootings over here involving Police are very, very rare. I only remember one over the last 5 years. The account of what happened with this incident seems to be changing on an hourly basis. What I would say however is that firing seven shots goes way beyond reasonable force. I can hand on heart say I could never see anything like this happening in the U.K. Unless your a Brazilian train traveller The fact that you have to go back 15 years sort of proves his point - it happens very, very rarely in the UK when compared to the US.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Aug 27, 2020 7:43:39 GMT
The US is really messed up. This is why we’re very lucky in the U.K. that we don’t have laws where it’s very easy to buy firearms and where only a small number of officers are armed. It only takes a few bad eggs to cause this sort of mayhem. Thankfully over here firearms officers receive extensive training and are physiologically tested before they’re allowed to carry a gun. This is why you simply can’t compare us with the US. Shootings over here involving Police are very, very rare. I only remember one over the last 5 years. The account of what happened with this incident seems to be changing on an hourly basis. What I would say however is that firing seven shots goes way beyond reasonable force. I can hand on heart say I could never see anything like this happening in the U.K. Unless your a Brazilian train traveller As I said 5 years. If you want to go down that route I forgot to mention the terrorists that were shot that murdered innocent members of the public that were armed with swords. Should they have let them carry on with their killing till they safely restrained them? There’s no doubt Mendez was a mistake and that he was innocent however bearing in mind the recent events at the time the officers had to make a quick decision on the basis that if they didn’t shoot potentially 100s of lives could have been lost. They got it wrong.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 27, 2020 8:28:18 GMT
Unless your a Brazilian train traveller The fact that you have to go back 15 years sort of proves his point - it happens very, very rarely in the UK when compared to the US. It was also never intended to be reasonable force the cops were (wrongly) told he was a suicide bomber and were sent down to stop him, still at least we dont make the cop in charge chief constable ohhhhh......
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Post by thevoid on Aug 27, 2020 8:37:59 GMT
Unless your a Brazilian train traveller As I said 5 years. If you want to go down that route I forgot to mention the terrorists that were shot that murdered innocent members of the public that were armed with swords. Should they have let them carry on with their killing till they safely restrained them? There’s no doubt Mendez was a mistake and that he was innocent however bearing in mind the recent events at the time the officers had to make a quick decision on the basis that if they didn’t shoot potentially 100s of lives could have been lost. They got it wrong. If the local police tell you to stop a couple of days after a terror attack in that city, you stop. Language barrier or not, everyone knows what stop means. The Met Police's nerves must have been frayed beyond belief that week.
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Post by walstoke on Aug 27, 2020 8:57:00 GMT
As I said 5 years. If you want to go down that route I forgot to mention the terrorists that were shot that murdered innocent members of the public that were armed with swords. Should they have let them carry on with their killing till they safely restrained them? There’s no doubt Mendez was a mistake and that he was innocent however bearing in mind the recent events at the time the officers had to make a quick decision on the basis that if they didn’t shoot potentially 100s of lives could have been lost. They got it wrong. If the local police tell you to stop a couple of days after a terror attack in that city, you stop. Language barrier or not, everyone knows what stop means. The Met Police's nerves must have been frayed beyond belief that week. Totally tragic incident, but when you put context to it, it's very difficult to blame the police involved. Especially coz they told him to stop and we're pointing guns.
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Post by Squeekster on Aug 27, 2020 8:58:48 GMT
I have been watching a police show where they press an emergency button on their radios for help and others officers respond asap, some of the beatings they get men and women officers are terrible and at the end of the show,it tells you what the culprit got and I have to say small fines and maybe probation is a joke (not one was imprisoned) and they wonder why people don't want to join up anymore.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Aug 27, 2020 10:08:56 GMT
It’s baffling to me why Blake was clearly ignoring the instructions from officers pointing their guns at him.
The US with its insistence on the 2nd amendment leads to such outcomes, there’s not a chance I’d be a cop in the US.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 27, 2020 11:20:27 GMT
It’s baffling to me why Blake was clearly ignoring the instructions from officers pointing their guns at him. The US with its insistence on the 2nd amendment leads to such outcomes, there’s not a chance I’d be a cop in the US. Who knows? Maybe he was fed up of being pulled over for the umpteenth time....we don't know the full story. Do the cops not have tasers in the US? Sub-lethal force for a bloke walking away from you seems more reasonable than shooting him half a dozen times. But, I agree, it's their ridiculous gun laws that result in every cop being trained to assume that everyone they stop has to be treated as though they are about to turn homicidal...
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Post by Squeekster on Aug 27, 2020 12:26:33 GMT
It’s baffling to me why Blake was clearly ignoring the instructions from officers pointing their guns at him. The US with its insistence on the 2nd amendment leads to such outcomes, there’s not a chance I’d be a cop in the US. Who knows? Maybe he was fed up of being pulled over for the umpteenth time....we don't know the full story. Do the cops not have tasers in the US? Sub-lethal force for a bloke walking away from you seems more reasonable than shooting him half a dozen times. But, I agree, it's their ridiculous gun laws that result in every cop being trained to assume that everyone they stop has to be treated as though they are about to turn homicidal... It's irrelevant if he's fed up , the police are the law and if they pull you over you do as your told simple. Radio 2 did a section on it a few years ago and quite a few people from the UK phoned in, one woman's husband was asked for ID whilst sat in the car and he went to get his wallet out of his pocket and they shot him, he made it through but they take no chances oh and he was white.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2020 13:04:26 GMT
Have we really not got a thread on this yet? It didn't look great did it? What on earth might be the explanation for pumping 7 bullets in to his back as he opened his car door ? I can only think the police will say they thought he was reaching for a gun. Meantime it's all gone off in Kenosha, Wisconsin, where this 'right to bear arms' thing seriously ups the ante! There will be an investigation of course, but the idea that the cop “shot an unarmed man in the back as he walked away” is about the most disingenuous summary of what appeared to happen as possible. Not that I’m saying that’s what you are doing, it’s just that’s what the received wisdom is. The cops are clearly trying to apprehend him. He is ignoring them as he walks back round the front of his truck. They are walking after him, clearly agitated and demanding he stop. In America, if a guy is ignoring a police request to stop, opening the door of his vehicle and getting/reaching in, there is a fair fucking possibility that he is going for a weapon. As he gets/reaches in, he appears to turn round, a cop grabs out towards him and that’s when the officers shoot. It doesn’t actually look like he was shot in the back to me, but the view is obscured by the car door. In a way it doesn’t really matter if the cops had reason to believe he was reaching for a weapon. Not that I’m saying they did. I’m not exonerating the cops, there should and will be an investigation. But it shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone if, as in the vast majority of these cases, it’s decided they had reasonable grounds to use the force they did. "Clearly trying to apprehend him?" He staggers gingerly towards his car, at least 2 of them could have apprehended him before he even got to his car door including the copper a couple of feet away pointing a gun at him. It was abysmal policing.
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 27, 2020 13:35:44 GMT
There will be an investigation of course, but the idea that the cop “shot an unarmed man in the back as he walked away” is about the most disingenuous summary of what appeared to happen as possible. Not that I’m saying that’s what you are doing, it’s just that’s what the received wisdom is. The cops are clearly trying to apprehend him. He is ignoring them as he walks back round the front of his truck. They are walking after him, clearly agitated and demanding he stop. In America, if a guy is ignoring a police request to stop, opening the door of his vehicle and getting/reaching in, there is a fair fucking possibility that he is going for a weapon. As he gets/reaches in, he appears to turn round, a cop grabs out towards him and that’s when the officers shoot. It doesn’t actually look like he was shot in the back to me, but the view is obscured by the car door. In a way it doesn’t really matter if the cops had reason to believe he was reaching for a weapon. Not that I’m saying they did. I’m not exonerating the cops, there should and will be an investigation. But it shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone if, as in the vast majority of these cases, it’s decided they had reasonable grounds to use the force they did. "Clearly trying to apprehend him?" He staggers gingerly towards his car, at least 2 of them could have apprehended him before he even got to his car door including the copper a couple of feet away pointing a gun at him. It was abysmal policing. They've got a taser or a gun pointed at him, what do you think they were trying to do? He's obviously not complying. I have no expertise or interest in judging the standard of the policing involved, it might well be abysmal. I'm just saying that "white officer shoots unarmed black man in the back as he walks away" is an incredibly cynical headline, and one that will contribute to more people getting killed in circumstances like these in the long run.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 27, 2020 13:41:03 GMT
Who knows? Maybe he was fed up of being pulled over for the umpteenth time....we don't know the full story. Do the cops not have tasers in the US? Sub-lethal force for a bloke walking away from you seems more reasonable than shooting him half a dozen times. But, I agree, it's their ridiculous gun laws that result in every cop being trained to assume that everyone they stop has to be treated as though they are about to turn homicidal... It's irrelevant if he's fed up , the police are the law and if they pull you over you do as your told simple. Radio 2 did a section on it a few years ago and quite a few people from the UK phoned in, one woman's husband was asked for ID whilst sat in the car and he went to get his wallet out of his pocket and they shot him, he made it through but they take no chances oh and he was white. Two things - first, it's easy to say that if you're not getting pulled all the time. Not saying he was but you'd get hacked off with it if it was happening regularly I'm sure. Second, the bit in bold proves the point that even doing what you're told, you still get shot in the good ol US of A!
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Post by Squeekster on Aug 27, 2020 13:47:02 GMT
It's irrelevant if he's fed up , the police are the law and if they pull you over you do as your told simple. Radio 2 did a section on it a few years ago and quite a few people from the UK phoned in, one woman's husband was asked for ID whilst sat in the car and he went to get his wallet out of his pocket and they shot him, he made it through but they take no chances oh and he was white. Which proves the point that even doing what you're told, you still get shot! Not really, instinct on the blokes part to naturally reach for his wallet but the police thought he was reaching for a holstered gun, they showed no remorse and didn't even give an apology even thought they told the police they were on holiday. I was in Chicago a few years ago and we were lost as I approached a police car to ask directions the window came down and he said come any closer and he'll be forced to shoot, after a brief chat he did tell me the way and also a few no no's re the police.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 27, 2020 13:49:56 GMT
No. He did exactly as he was told - went to get his ID which happened to be in his wallet, where I guess most men keep a form of ID.
He did what he was told - he got shot.
Your example is just as ridiculous - again, you were breaking no law and you almost got shot.
If you can't see the problem with cops and gun laws in America from your two examples, I despair!
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Post by mattyd2 on Aug 27, 2020 15:32:38 GMT
So far this year 215 White people have been shot by the police in The USA, compared to 111 Black, 71 Hispanic, 15 Other & 146 Unknown.
NOT ONE OF THE SHOOTINGS OF ANY GROUPS OTHER THAN THE BLACKS HAS RESULTED IN ANY RIOTS OR PUBLIC DISORDER WHATSOEVER.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 27, 2020 16:06:53 GMT
So far this year 215 White people have been shot by the police in The USA, compared to 111 Black, 71 Hispanic, 15 Other & 146 Unknown. NOT ONE OF THE SHOOTINGS OF ANY GROUPS OTHER THAN THE BLACKS HAS RESULTED IN ANY RIOTS OR PUBLIC DISORDER WHATSOEVER. Stop shouting! 2017 - 73% of US population is classified as White, 27% non-White. By your figures - 54% of shootings are of Whites, 46% are of non-Whites. (I've excluded Others and Unknowns). Hmmm...perhaps non-Whites are "starting" to get a bit fed up of this disproportionate tally of shootings against them?
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Aug 27, 2020 16:23:55 GMT
So far this year 215 White people have been shot by the police in The USA, compared to 111 Black, 71 Hispanic, 15 Other & 146 Unknown. NOT ONE OF THE SHOOTINGS OF ANY GROUPS OTHER THAN THE BLACKS HAS RESULTED IN ANY RIOTS OR PUBLIC DISORDER WHATSOEVER. Stop shouting! 2017 - 73% of US population is classified as White, 27% non-White. By your figures - 54% of shootings are of Whites, 46% are of non-Whites. (I've excluded Others and Unknowns). Hmmm...perhaps non-Whites are "starting" to get a bit fed up of this disproportionate tally of shootings against them? If only people who trotted out "stats" had any fucking clue whatsoever how to actually analyse them eh? "Here, i've got some numbers....no context or analysis surrounding them, but they're numbers and if i shout them enough times it proves something". Facebook and twitter are full of thick fuckers who have no idea of what the "stats" actually show at all, just whatever they're told it MUST mean by equally thick fuckers who also don't realise that numbers on their own prove literally nothing. They don't even realise the stats they're trotting out actually stengthen the point they're apparently arguing against (as you correctly point out, it's the disproportion that's the salient piece of information in the stats). I find it even more bizarre, the sheer amount of white English men who trot this shit out to try to make it seem as if the US have no problem really and it's all made up...despite virtually every major US politician themselves holding their hands up to the fact that there is a problem and it needs to be sorted....but no, matty and his ilk don't agree and obviously know better than American politicians themselves, y'know with him being a white Brit and all that (apologies for presuming gender and ethnicity....but i'm pretty sure i'm bang on!)
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Aug 27, 2020 16:25:59 GMT
Stop shouting! 2017 - 73% of US population is classified as White, 27% non-White. By your figures - 54% of shootings are of Whites, 46% are of non-Whites. (I've excluded Others and Unknowns). Hmmm...perhaps non-Whites are "starting" to get a bit fed up of this disproportionate tally of shootings against them? If only people who trotted out "stats" had any fucking clue whatsoever how to actually analyse them eh? "Here, i've got some numbers....no context or analysis surrounding them, but they're numbers and if i shout them enough times it proves something". Facebook and twitter are full of thick fuckers who have no idea of what the "stats" actually show at all, just whatever they're told it MUST mean by equally thick fuckers who also don't realise that numbers on their own prove literally nothing. Superb analysis 👏🏻
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Post by PotterLog on Aug 27, 2020 16:48:48 GMT
Stop shouting! 2017 - 73% of US population is classified as White, 27% non-White. By your figures - 54% of shootings are of Whites, 46% are of non-Whites. (I've excluded Others and Unknowns). Hmmm...perhaps non-Whites are "starting" to get a bit fed up of this disproportionate tally of shootings against them? If only people who trotted out "stats" had any fucking clue whatsoever how to actually analyse them eh? "Here, i've got some numbers....no context or analysis surrounding them, but they're numbers and if i shout them enough times it proves something". Facebook and twitter are full of thick fuckers who have no idea of what the "stats" actually show at all, just whatever they're told it MUST mean by equally thick fuckers who also don't realise that numbers on their own prove literally nothing. They don't even realise the stats they're trotting out actually stengthen the point they're apparently arguing against (as you correctly point it, it's the disproportion that's the salient piece of information in the stats). When you correct for other factors like rates of apprehension/arrest, white people who find themselves in an interaction with police in the US are slightly more likely to end up dead than blacks. Of course there are many other factors to consider like the fact that a disproportionate number of stops are conducted on black people. Non-lethal force seems to come into play more frequently when the subject is black. Then there's the criminal justice and prison system which is an absolute disaster in the States, and disproportionately affects poor black Americans. It's a complicated picture, but the narrative that an institutionally racist US police force is routinely gunning down innocent black people in the streets is wildly and dangerously inaccurate.
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Aug 27, 2020 17:20:10 GMT
If only people who trotted out "stats" had any fucking clue whatsoever how to actually analyse them eh? "Here, i've got some numbers....no context or analysis surrounding them, but they're numbers and if i shout them enough times it proves something". Facebook and twitter are full of thick fuckers who have no idea of what the "stats" actually show at all, just whatever they're told it MUST mean by equally thick fuckers who also don't realise that numbers on their own prove literally nothing. They don't even realise the stats they're trotting out actually stengthen the point they're apparently arguing against (as you correctly point it, it's the disproportion that's the salient piece of information in the stats). When you correct for other factors like rates of apprehension/arrest, white people who find themselves in an interaction with police in the US are slightly more likely to end up dead than blacks. Of course there are many other factors to consider like the fact that a disproportionate number of stops are conducted on black people. Non-lethal force seems to come into play more frequently when the subject is black. Then there's the criminal justice and prison system which is an absolute disaster in the States, and disproportionately affects poor black Americans. It's a complicated picture, but the narrative that an institutionally racist US police force is routinely gunning down innocent black people in the streets is wildly and dangerously inaccurate. I would agree, but i don't think that narrative has actually been pushed by anyone, anywhere has it?
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