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Post by mrcoke on Aug 23, 2020 9:08:58 GMT
I have ploughed through this thread since my last post and the main condemnation of this appointment is his age and lack of experience.
Funny, that reminds me of the club appointing a Michael O'Neil last November and the number posters saying he lacked experience, had no knowledge of the English/Championship/ large club game, and would be out of his depth.
Please give the guy a chance to prove himself.
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Post by tachyon on Aug 23, 2020 9:12:34 GMT
But your not willing to say or as I assume you don't. Your choice. I'm not fussed.
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Post by str8outtahampton on Aug 23, 2020 9:26:09 GMT
But your not willing to say or as I assume you don't. The list is so generic, it sheds very little light even if it is accurate. At least 5 of the criteria could be lifted, word for word, from any twaddle job description. Tippex out the references to "scouting", "club", "agent" in the others and hey presto, you have an oven ready specification. This isn't a comment on how well the bloke is qualified by the way. As Malcolm says, none of us knows, so he needs to be given a chance. But I wouldn't put it past scfc to lift a job description off the Internet.
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Post by RF10 on Aug 23, 2020 9:32:10 GMT
But your not willing to say or as I assume you don't. The list is so generic, it sheds very little light even if it is accurate. At least 5 of the criteria could be lifted, word for word, from any twaddle job description. Tippex out the references to "scouting", "club", "agent" in the others and hey presto, you have an oven ready specification. This isn't a comment on how well the bloke is qualified by the way. As Malcolm says, none of us knows, so he needs to be given a chance. But I wouldn't put it past scfc to lift a job description off the Internet. That's a fair comment but it was more aimed at the lack of apparent knowledge of this guys qualifications or abilities.
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Post by RF10 on Aug 23, 2020 9:32:52 GMT
But your not willing to say or as I assume you don't. Your choice. I'm not fussed. Great so I'm correct then
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Post by str8outtahampton on Aug 23, 2020 9:35:25 GMT
He went to Manchester metropolitan university , which in the 70s and 80s was known as Manchester poly .In the 1990s they changed the name from Manchester Polytechnic to Manchester metropolitan university In 1992 all Polytechnics were re-branded as Universities and at the same time their sub-degree BTEC qualifications spun off to Colleges of Further Education. Cynics might say it was a fast track route to Govt targets of having 50% of youngsters go to University. And I recall Stephen Fry joking that 'anywhere with a playground larger than half a hectare can now call it's a University' However it is fair to say several of them have positively thrived and now sit above the traditional universities in the league tables. Most kids today really don't care about this former distinction if they know about it at all. Been waiting for a thread on the rebranding of Polys. My cup runneth over. I think initially Polys were given the option of rebranding. The vast majority opted in. One or two, which had a particular reputation for specific courses continued to be called Polys. Oxford, for example. But they all eventually switched. First in the queue was Newcastle Poly of course. Which is now proudly called the City University of Newcastle on Tyne.
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Post by Gary Hackett on Aug 23, 2020 9:38:50 GMT
Let's be fair, recruiting at Millwall, on one of the smallest budgets in the league, and for 2 managers who favour very pragmatic football is not an easy gig. He must've done some things right - and the manager will always have the veto over anything. Milwlall fans, like all fans, won't really know what it is he's doing in the background. To get the job at Millwall at just 24 - and beat 80 candidates to our job at just 27 is not easy. May be worth giving him a chance? Yes but it stinks of John Coates and the bloke down the pub fiasco when they recruited Jones.
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Post by str8outtahampton on Aug 23, 2020 9:43:38 GMT
The list is so generic, it sheds very little light even if it is accurate. At least 5 of the criteria could be lifted, word for word, from any twaddle job description. Tippex out the references to "scouting", "club", "agent" in the others and hey presto, you have an oven ready specification. This isn't a comment on how well the bloke is qualified by the way. As Malcolm says, none of us knows, so he needs to be given a chance. But I wouldn't put it past scfc to lift a job description off the Internet. That's a fair comment but it was more aimed at the lack of apparent knowledge of this guys qualifications or abilities. Agreed. I doubt we'll ever know. Nor will we ever know if he competed against 79 other candidates. If I were recruiting, and btw I am notoriously rubbish in that field, I would ditch the list (assuming it is genuine) and replace it with: "Wanted. Person to lead SCFC recruitment. Measurable track record in improving squads, including in the Championship, and establishing a long term and sustainable recruitment and retention strategy. Knowledge of FFP essential".
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Post by tachyon on Aug 23, 2020 9:51:08 GMT
Skillset required for a modern head of recruitment. Lead a team of scouts
Understand how and when to apply objective and subjective scouting methods
Build relationships to key stakeholders in the market place: agents, clubs etc.
Use technology where it makes the scouting process more effective
Translate a recruitment strategy into specific actions and weekly targets
Structure information and presenting it in a effective way
Excellent at creating structure and run processes
Outstanding people skills. The ability to build relationships is essential in this role.
Great communication skills
Open-minded towards new and sometimes unconventional ideas that can improve current practices
The guy who put his name to these requirements doesn't do 9 out of 10 either. To be clear, this isn't the Stoke advert. It's from another, successful Championship team. It shouts "chess champion", "video game geek" & "stats based" rather than old school, sat in the stands with notebook & pencil.
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Post by crapslinger on Aug 23, 2020 9:51:59 GMT
Sounds another perfect Scholes appointment will no doubt keep the process going, the club is amateurish at board level.
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Post by Gods on Aug 23, 2020 9:52:20 GMT
In 1992 all Polytechnics were re-branded as Universities and at the same time their sub-degree BTEC qualifications spun off to Colleges of Further Education. Cynics might say it was a fast track route to Govt targets of having 50% of youngsters go to University. And I recall Stephen Fry joking that 'anywhere with a playground larger than half a hectare can now call it's a University' However it is fair to say several of them have positively thrived and now sit above the traditional universities in the league tables. Most kids today really don't care about this former distinction if they know about it at all. Been waiting for a thread on the rebranding of Polys. My cup runneth over. I think initially Polys were given the option of rebranding. The vast majority opted in. One or two, which had a particular reputation for specific courses continued to be called Polys. Oxford, for example. But they all eventually switched. First in the queue was Newcastle Poly of course. Which is now proudly called the City University of Newcastle on Tyne. There was a big thing with the naming, so if a City already had a University and a Polytechnic you could not necessarily just sub 'University' for 'Polytechnic' at the end. Which is how we have happened upon 'Nottingham Trent for example or Leeds Metropolitan. Never an issue with Keele and North Staffs since neither of them ever adopted the 'Stoke' monika. Must have been nice if you were a Polytechnic Lecturer and woke up one morning as a University Lecturer! Did a potential pay rise come with it or were they paid about the same anyway, I don't recall? Either way it made you look like more of an intellectual heavyweight overnight! In the case of young 'Aldo' here I think his schooling cost more than his University. He left the Whitgift School near Croydon in 2011 the year of our FA Cup Final, I don't know what it cost then but a full boarding place is £40,000 per pupil a year now. It's pretty swanky in all fairness.
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Post by str8outtahampton on Aug 23, 2020 10:00:01 GMT
Been waiting for a thread on the rebranding of Polys. My cup runneth over. I think initially Polys were given the option of rebranding. The vast majority opted in. One or two, which had a particular reputation for specific courses continued to be called Polys. Oxford, for example. But they all eventually switched. First in the queue was Newcastle Poly of course. Which is now proudly called the City University of Newcastle on Tyne. My cup runneth over too on this topic! There was a big thing with the naming, so if a City already had a University and a Polytechnic you could not necessarily just sub 'University' for 'Polytechnic' at the end. Which is how we have happened upon 'Nottingham Trent for example or Leeds Metropolitan. Never an issue with Keele and North Staffs since neither of them ever adopted the 'Stoke' monika. Must have been nice if you were a Polytechnic Lecturer and woke up one morning as a University Lecturer! Did a potential pay rise come with it or were they paid about the same anyway, I don't recall? No sadly I don't. But as you say, the opportunity of introducing yourself as a "UNIVERSITY" Lecturer was probably reward enough. I imagine partners/wives/husbands of newly garlanded academics would say, coquettishly: "Oohh, would you like to come upstairs, Professor. I think I need a VERY personal tutorial!"
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Post by Billy the kid on Aug 23, 2020 10:16:55 GMT
For what it’s worth, the last 5 years of recruitment at the club has been a disaster, so a new face is a good thing. I also think that the way in which recruiting players has changed massively. You only have to look at the way Brentford handle their recruitment, compared to most other clubs in the division, it’s all based on analytical assessment, a new modern way of identifying targets, as opposed to sitting in the stands and going through tv footage. It’s a no brainier for me, age doesn’t come in to it, but being able to use the tools available and take the data and process it into a coherent format, where the “experienced football people” can then take a look I.e the coaching staff. It’s all a move in the right direction.
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Post by hampsonp66 on Aug 23, 2020 10:30:43 GMT
I dont think polys had any choice over rebrand.
I went to North Staffs Poly but got my degree from Staffs University. If id had any choice it would of been from the poly. In computing at that time polys courses were aimed at industry and unis were more based on research.
BFB
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Post by s7oke on Aug 23, 2020 10:54:40 GMT
It was A tongue in cheek comment really But he must have had a say And makes it doubly worse knowing rowett would have walked Why oh why did we sign him Why? If a manager really wants a player he will get that player or walk like he threatened to here. And you'd expect the board to pick the manager over the recruitment guy. The issue I have with Woods' signing is the fee. He should be in our midfield imo. On his first half dozen or so appearances for stoke he looked world class Then the inevitable happened he went to shit All about attitudes I think Also I assume Pulis went stale due to the introduction or interference of Cartwright with scholes So the manager doesn’t always get what he wants It depends if the CEO has the new guys ear above the manager
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 23, 2020 10:56:47 GMT
Why? If a manager really wants a player he will get that player or walk like he threatened to here. And you'd expect the board to pick the manager over the recruitment guy. The issue I have with Woods' signing is the fee. He should be in our midfield imo. On his first half dozen or so appearances for stoke he looked world class Then the inevitable happened he went to shit All about attitudes I think Also I assume Pulis went stale due to the introduction or interference of Cartwright with scholes So the manager doesn’t always get what he wants It depends if the CEO has the new guys ear above the manager He's been good everywhere else bar here, are we sure it's him?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2020 12:17:50 GMT
For what it’s worth, the last 5 years of recruitment at the club has been a disaster, so a new face is a good thing. I also think that the way in which recruiting players has changed massively. You only have to look at the way Brentford handle their recruitment, compared to most other clubs in the division, it’s all based on analytical assessment, a new modern way of identifying targets, as opposed to sitting in the stands and going through tv footage. It’s a no brainier for me, age doesn’t come in to it, but being able to use the tools available and take the data and process it into a coherent format, where the “experienced football people” can then take a look I.e the coaching staff. It’s all a move in the right direction. I wish him well too. We badly need this lad to be a carto upgrade . But unfortunately ,identifying the players is half the job and the easy half. I could go on the internet for half an hour and give you a long list of championship players with great stats and players around Europe with great stats. Bit of a shame then ,that I would have no idea whatsoever, how to get in the players , Jorge mendes has got to come to wolves and Victor orta has got to come to Leeds . Those guys have contacts , literally all over the world . I don't ,and the concern is nor does 27 year old Alex from Millwall either.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 23, 2020 12:24:22 GMT
There is an apparent assumption running through a lot of this thread, that this appointment is that of the CEO alone. Given its importance and the number of expensive mistakes in this area we've had in recent years, I would be astonished if the Chairman and the owners were not very directly involved. Indeed it's even possible that Alex wasn't Tony Scholes first choice. Who knows. We obviously wouldn't be told if that were the case. As Manuel would have said - "we know nothing".
You can argue this both ways. You can say that a 27-year old can't possibly have yet acquired all the skills and experience needed in this role. Or you can say that for a 27-year old to beat 79 other candidates and emerge as the best candidate, means he must be really good. Let's hope it's the latter. I am quite sure that in making the appointment, the Chairman and the CEO want exactly the same as the rest of us.
The word 'recruitment' may also be a bit misleading here in the short term. It's very clear from what the manager keeps saying about "too many players in the building" that a major priority at the moment is getting rid of expensive players, so it may be more about Alex's skills in persuading other clubs to buy or loan our players than his ability to analyse performance stats etc for potential recruits, at least in the short term.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Aug 23, 2020 13:56:28 GMT
I hope he read the small print in the job spec 'must watch each potential player 25 times before final recruitment will be approved'.
Good luck to him on task number 1 - shifting the bomb squad. Or does that not come under recruitment?
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Post by FullerMagic on Aug 24, 2020 6:54:49 GMT
londonnewsonline.co.uk/gary-rowett-surprised-at-departure-of-millwall-head-of-recruitment-alex-aldridge/“I suppose if I’m being really honest I was a little bit surprised – I had no inclination. “But people move on and make decisions to move on. In some ways it means we’ve got a role to fill. “It’s a shame because I like Alex and I worked really well with him. But everyone for professional reasons decides that something is better for them. I’ve done it myself, so I can’t really criticise him. “The timing of it, midway through a window with limited time to work anyway, was the hardest bit about it. But I’ve been in the division for quite a long time, we know players and the type we want to sign. I don’t necessarily see it disrupting us a great deal. “Al was good at his job, which is why he’s got the Stoke job. Any recruitment department will find a list of players to put to the manager and he decides what type he wants and will nearly always decide which ones they try and sign. “But what they then do is help with logistics, phone calls, negotiations and statistical analysis – so there’s a lot of work goes on behind the scenes. You’re still going to make the same decision. You can see with the likes of Woodsy and Mason – there are players who can come and impact your group but that you don’t necessarily need to find that way. “I wish Alex well and I hope he goes on to be successful because I enjoyed working with him but we have to look at what we do next, how we move forward and how we improve.”
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Post by Gods on Aug 24, 2020 7:08:19 GMT
No mention of 'players out' in what he did at Millwall in the Rowett piece above. I guess they dont have £40 million of players on 7 figure incomes in the dog house they need to ship out
That's surely the #1 job at SCFC right now?
Honestly, I think Scholes is missing Cartwright, he did that ball aching back office shit and did it very well in the impossible circumstances
Scholes doesn't want to do it, he has enough on his plate managing a business with no income stream right now.
But it's got to get done, not sure you can really plonk it on Aldo's desk on day one and ask him to start phoning Istanbul :-)
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Post by andystokey on Aug 24, 2020 7:19:59 GMT
There is an apparent assumption running through a lot of this thread, that this appointment is that of the CEO alone. Given its importance and the number of expensive mistakes in this area we've had in recent years, I would be astonished if the Chairman and the owners were not very directly involved. Indeed it's even possible that Alex wasn't Tony Scholes first choice. Who knows. We obviously wouldn't be told if that were the case. As Manuel would have said - "we know nothing". You can argue this both ways. You can say that a 27-year old can't possibly have yet acquired all the skills and experience needed in this role. Or you can say that for a 27-year old to beat 79 other candidates and emerge as the best candidate, means he must be really good. Let's hope it's the latter. I am quite sure that in making the appointment, the Chairman and the CEO want exactly the same as the rest of us. The word 'recruitment' may also be a bit misleading here in the short term. It's very clear from what the manager keeps saying about "too many players in the building" that a major priority at the moment is getting rid of expensive players, so it may be more about Alex's skills in persuading other clubs to buy or loan our players than his ability to analyse performance stats etc for potential recruits, at least in the short term. It's odd how some jobs seem to be ageist, which btw is illegal. I personally feel the halcyon days of a bloke in a rain mac standing on the grass at Dagenham and Redbridge are far from the truth. Not least for the reason that the modern game has passed most of the older candidates by. Let's be clear this is a recruitment role, he won't be doing all, or possibly any scouting. Ringing agents, reading contracts etc. will be the main job and as you say MC finding a home for 10 or so unwanted highly paid professional on good contracts with awkward agents. The bloke has a relevant degree in modern football, rather than got the job because he used to know someone 20 years ago. He has experience in the actual job and with a Championship club with limited funds. His age is completely irrelevant.
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Post by tachyon on Aug 24, 2020 8:08:23 GMT
As we all know, xG is by far the best way to evaluate a team's underlying performance process. So let's see how Millwall might have identified & solved their goal keeping problem after their return to the Championship. Below is a 40 shot, rolling average for goals allowed verses the quality of on target shots and headers faced by their keepers. 2017/18, first season back in the Championship. No problem. A bit of a dip mide-season, but it's bookended by two runs of above average shot stopping. Final position 8th. 2018/19. Awful shot stopping all season, bar the final couple of games. You can see that on the xG2 plot where the blue (goals allowed) trend is continually above the orange (quality of shots faced) trend. Three different keepers used. They almost get relegated. 2019/20. Presumably having identified a problem, they look for a new keeper. Bartosz Bialkowski's got himself relegated with Ipswich, but of the 150 odd keepers who've faced a shot in the Championship since 2014/15, he's a top ten shot stopper. He's faced on target goal attempts, with an expected goals conceded of nearly 300, but he's only conceded 264 goals (excluding own goals). He joins, initially on loan, plays all 46 games, Millwall have a very good shot stopping season as evidenced by the blue (goals allowed) trend spending most of the season blow the orange expected goals trend. They finish 8th again. Tracking your process, identifying a potential problem, looking for better alternatives. We needed a bit of that under Mark Hughes. Attachment Deleted
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Post by str8outtahampton on Aug 24, 2020 8:28:19 GMT
As we all know, xG is by far the best way to evaluate a team's underlying performance process. So let's see how Millwall might have identified & solved their goal keeping problem after their return to the Championship. Below is a 40 shot, rolling average for goals allowed verses the quality of on target shots and headers faced by their keepers. 2017/18, first season back in the Championship. No problem. A bit of a dip mide-season, but it's bookended by two runs of above average shot stopping. Final position 8th. 2018/19. Awful shot stopping all season, bar the final couple of games. You can see that on the xG2 plot where the blue (goals allowed) trend is continually above the orange (quality of shots faced) trend. Three different keepers used. They almost get relegated. 2019/20. Presumably having identified a problem, they look for a new keeper. Bartosz Bialkowski's got himself relegated with Ipswich, but of the 150 odd keepers who've faced a shot in the Championship since 2014/15, he's a top ten shot stopper. He's faced on target goal attempts, with an expected goals conceded of nearly 300, but he's only conceded 264 goals (excluding own goals). He joins, initially on loan, plays all 46 games, Millwall have a very good shot stopping season as evidenced by the blue (goals allowed) trend spending most of the season blow the orange expected goals trend. They finish 8th again. Tracking your process, identifying a potential problem, looking for better alternatives. We needed a bit of that under Mark Hughes. View Attachment It makes you wonder how clubs managed to muddle through back in the dark ages. Alf Ramsey (Ipswich), Clough (Derby and Forest), Revie (Leeds), Shankly (The WSs) - and to a lesser extent Waddington - must just have got lucky.
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Post by tachyon on Aug 24, 2020 8:45:07 GMT
It makes you wonder how clubs managed to muddle through back in the dark ages. Alf Ramsey (Ipswich), Clough (Derby and Forest), Revie (Leeds), Shankly (The WSs) - and to a lesser extent Waddington - must just have got lucky. Yep, it's a mystery. Almost as if they managed in a different era & had to make do with exploiting the then available edges to maximise their considerable success.
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Post by str8outtahampton on Aug 24, 2020 8:50:32 GMT
It makes you wonder how clubs managed to muddle through back in the dark ages. Alf Ramsey (Ipswich), Clough (Derby and Forest), Revie (Leeds), Shankly (The WSs) - and to a lesser extent Waddington - must just have got lucky. Yep, it's a mystery. Almost as if they managed in a different era & had to make do with exploiting the then available edges to maximise their considerable success. Genuinely is a mystery. In fact it's almost as if they watched a player. Decided that he was rubbish. And did their best to move him on. Back then, such an approach was considered alchemy. Some regarded it as witchcraft.
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Post by tachyon on Aug 24, 2020 9:04:14 GMT
Genuinely is a mystery. In fact it's almost as if they watched a player. Decided that he was rubbish. And did their best to move him on. Back then, such an approach was considered alchemy. Some regarded it as witchcraft. You combine the best of the old & the best of the new. Computer geeks played a huge role in turning Liverpool from a bog standard top 4 to 7 team into PL champs & until yesterday champions of Europe and the world (almost forgot that one). They were integral in all Liverpool's big signings (& departures), including their biggest ever one. I imagine Shanks would approve.
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Post by str8outtahampton on Aug 24, 2020 9:23:03 GMT
Genuinely is a mystery. In fact it's almost as if they watched a player. Decided that he was rubbish. And did their best to move him on. Back then, such an approach was considered alchemy. Some regarded it as witchcraft. You combine the best of the old & the best of the new. Computer geeks played a huge role in turning Liverpool from a bog standard top 4 to 7 team into PL champs & until yesterday champions of Europe and the world (almost forgot that one). They were integral in all Liverpool's big signings (& departures), including their biggest ever one. I imagine Shanks would approve. He might have done. We'll never know sadly. However, xG may not be the best approach "we all know it to be". I follow Millwall's fortunes a bit, as a friend and colleague is a season ticket holder. And in fact rarely misses a game home or away. Bialkowski was signed in the close season as cover. The no 1 got injured. Bialkowski stepped in, and was indeed their player of the season. Huge element of luck.
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Post by Olgrligm on Aug 24, 2020 9:23:39 GMT
As we all know, xG is by far the best way to evaluate a team's underlying performance process. So let's see how Millwall might have identified & solved their goal keeping problem after their return to the Championship. Below is a 40 shot, rolling average for goals allowed verses the quality of on target shots and headers faced by their keepers. 2017/18, first season back in the Championship. No problem. A bit of a dip mide-season, but it's bookended by two runs of above average shot stopping. Final position 8th. 2018/19. Awful shot stopping all season, bar the final couple of games. You can see that on the xG2 plot where the blue (goals allowed) trend is continually above the orange (quality of shots faced) trend. Three different keepers used. They almost get relegated. 2019/20. Presumably having identified a problem, they look for a new keeper. Bartosz Bialkowski's got himself relegated with Ipswich, but of the 150 odd keepers who've faced a shot in the Championship since 2014/15, he's a top ten shot stopper. He's faced on target goal attempts, with an expected goals conceded of nearly 300, but he's only conceded 264 goals (excluding own goals). He joins, initially on loan, plays all 46 games, Millwall have a very good shot stopping season as evidenced by the blue (goals allowed) trend spending most of the season blow the orange expected goals trend. They finish 8th again. Tracking your process, identifying a potential problem, looking for better alternatives. We needed a bit of that under Mark Hughes. View Attachment This is very interesting, and I can see how xG is a useful recruiting tool when it comes to goalkeepers, forwards and midfielders tasked with chance creation. However, I do wonder how well xG would allow you to pinpoint issues on the defensive side of the game? For example, you can see with the naked eye that for the past couple of seasons we have had a major problem with our midfield completely disappearing when the opposition advance towards the edge of our penalty area, which has resulted in a lot of goals conceded. Part of that is an issue with our recruitment, where we have consistently signed or tried to sign the exact same type of box-to-box midfielder, all the way from van Ginkel, Imbula and Allen to Clucas and Boothe. Is there anything in the array of stats that could identify all of that? I still wince a little when I see 'clearances' and 'tackles' wheeled out as standalone stats to try and judge a centre back by.
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Post by Gods on Aug 24, 2020 9:28:29 GMT
Ridiculous as it may seem, we are missing Carto, I'm 100% sure of it.
He came from Beswicks and so had the patience and skill to do the ball aching paperwork and deal with difficult agents and clubs to ship a clown like Badu out to Turkey and get a pay cheque back.
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