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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 7, 2020 8:38:06 GMT
Thanks for taking the time to give us all this info, Malcolm. A few random points from me: 1. Would I be correct in thinking that the small size of many of our concourses (relative to the capacity of the stand they serve) is likely to mean that the bet365 reduced capacity may be less than it would have been with concourses which were larger than the bare minimum? I've always thought our concourses are ridiculously small in all but the main stand lower - any chance of persuading the club to increase the concourse size PERMANENTLY - not just adding an open air area (as suggested earlier in the thread) during the period of the pandemic? 2. As regards arrival times of up to 3 hours before kick off - can we hope that fans who live hundreds of miles away could be given later arrival times? I rarely get to the Brit these days (too old and decrepit!) but when I had my season ticket a round trip to a game was around 8 hours plus. Adding 3 hours to that makes it an 11 hours plus round trip. Also the idea of not getting in if you miss your arrival time is tough on a local fan but would probably be the final straw for a fan who faces an 8 hour + round trip and £50 in petrol or the cost of a rail ticket. I'll be interested to see how ticket allocations work if we operate at around 30% capacity - I would not like to be the person devising the system. Some are going to be very disappointed and possibly angry. Thanks again for your efforts - I'm a bit shocked that we haven't had more from the club and the supporters council by now. On (1) John, it will depend on the application of the SGSA guidelines (see link above). I notice that they say if the socially distanced concourse capacity is lower than the socially distanced capacity of the viewing accommodation which it serves, unless one or more of the control measures suggested in Section SG02 8.5 are put into place – for example that the use of the concourse is restricted to circulation only (see Section SG02 8.5.a) – the lower figure will take precedence when making the final calculation (as is also the case if either the entry capacity or the exit capacity is lower). (2) will be up to the club to decide, which is why consultation and communication is important, so that at least fans can feel that they have had a chance to have their say. I too have been surprised by the apparent radio silence from the Club and the Council on this.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 7, 2020 10:11:48 GMT
I omitted to mention that the FSA has been fortunate to obtain the services, pro bono, of Harpreet Robertson to help us collate information on good and bad practice and advise our affiliates at Club level on the ticketing issues. As some of you may know Harpreet was until recently the FA's ticketing manager for England games and is also a match-going fan herself so has plenty of experience from both sides as it were. Her knowledge and experience will be very helpful to us at this time.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2020 10:19:00 GMT
I just can’t see fans is stadiums for a very long time. The spike is starting to rise, the early signs are a bit off putting to say the least, 20-40% capacity. Sitting in grounds hours upon end. Then I would imagine face coverings to be worn. Maybe no shouting, singing etc? Because of particles spreading. It’s a right mess. It’s actually very depressing the thought of a season of football and not being able to go.
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Post by wearestoke80 on Aug 7, 2020 10:24:21 GMT
"To avoid the normal late rush, it is likely that fans will be given an arrival time which could be up to 3 hours before kick-off. " Forget it. I'd rather get pissed in front of the TV. And turn it off when we’re 3 down at half time
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 7, 2020 10:42:26 GMT
With us when a crowd is allowed I think it would make sense to use the main gates as the entrances and even use the entrances from outside directly to the pitchside area.
It would negate a lot of the hassle/health and safety of going inside and would be a lot speedier.
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Post by Not_Nick_H on Aug 7, 2020 12:13:15 GMT
As I haven't seen much publicised locally I thought it might be helpful if I gave some information and a national perspective on the issues around the return of fans to stadia. Apologies to those readers who already know most or even all of this stuff. For those who want to read for themselves the key documents, they are firstly, Government policy as it now stands www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/elite-sport-return-to-competition-safe-return-of-spectatorsand secondly, the Sports Ground Safety Authority ( the quango which has responsibility for this area) draft rules, which as you will see are long and highly detailed sgsa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/SG02-Planning-for-social-distancing-at-sports-grounds.pdfThe season will start on 12 September, but fans will not be allowed back until 3 October at the earliest ( of course that could change if the virus situation worsens and/or there are local lockdowns). There may need to be some test events. The complex SGSA rules will mean that most grounds will probably be allowed 20%-40% capacity, i.e probably a max of about 11k in our case. It will not necessarily be even across a ground, but variable in different stands.There are complex issues here on the application of social distancing rules. One is whether there will have to be 1 seat or 2 between each spectator or group of spectators. Groups or families who are in a single household or a bubble will not need to have an empty seat or seats between them. Thus the more of those which attend the higher the allowed capacity. The major concerns are not about when the match is in progress when everyone is facing forward, but about entering and leaving the ground, the concourses, refreshment counters, toilets and transport to and from the ground. There is also obviously a tension between the normal security procedures involving pats down and the social distancing requirements for stewards.There is also a humorous side to some of this. One document talked about the need to take care when singing How exactly do you do that ? To avoid the normal late rush, it is likely that fans will be given an arrival time which could be up to 3 hours before kick-off. A bit like checking in for a flight. Miss your appointment and you won't get in. And we might have random temperature tests.The recording of names and contact details could have implications if clubs try to use it in other ways such as checking that there isn't abuse of the use of season cards. There may be suspension of some legislation and EFL rules. For example, if clubs want to introduce serving of alcoholic drink and food at seats to avoid crowding at the counters, possibly using an app to order it, the law might be changed to allow this. The EFL are likely to suspend their rules on away fans allocations. This will be a key issue with possibly reduced away allocations as a % of the total or no away fans at all. I think fans will want some reciprocity between clubs here. The FSA is putting forward some general principles such as fairness e.g corporates or more expensive seats should not be prioritised, or disabled fans de-prioritised. This situation should not be used as a back-door way of introducing controversial or unpopular changes which would then become the new norm. Most of the stuff about numbers, distancing etc., will be outside local control. But decisions on ticketing and pricing i.e what is the rationing policy on who gets into the ground will be within the control of individual clubs. This will obviously be an area of intense interest to fans. Do season card holders get priority ( which could mean all the tickets) ? How and at what level do the club refund those who don't get in ? Will streaming offers be part of that ? Are away fans allowed, if so how many ? How will tickets be allocated ? A ballot or existing loyalty points or some other method ? What is the approach in the allocation system to family groups who can sit next to each other ? And so on and so on. The FSA will be producing some checklists and guidance notes on this, as well as a database on what clubs are deciding. The EFL is encouraging clubs to consult local fans groups about all these questions. In my dual capacity as Chair of the Supporters club and Chair of the FSA, I wrote to ask for consultation but received the disappointing response that there wouldn't be any. However I then noticed in the Sentinel that there was a meeting between the Club and the Supporters Council about this a week ago today. I may have missed it ( if so apologies to those involved ) but I haven't noticed any report back to supporters after that meeting. Neither have I noticed any consultation by either the Club or the Council on the ticketing and rationing policies which might be adopted ( again, apologies if I've missed it). Some clubs have started consultation and in some cases taking some decisions on these issues. Of course it will be dependent on the numbers actually allowed but some of the principles could be discussed now. Both the Supporters club and the FSA would be interested to hear the views of fans. If you don't want to post on here, feel free to PM me or email to info@thefsa.org.uk I am sorry for such a long post, but it's difficult to cover all the issues briefly. If you have got this far, well done and I hope that at least some readers have found it useful. Thanks for this insight and information Malcolm. I don't envy anyone involved in getting fans back into stadia (including us fans). It's one thing trying to decide a plan for some weeks into the future, but the virus hasn't gone away and could well put in a wider appearance as time goes on - rendering any plans useless if local lockdowns have to be brought in. In a way I'm glad I didn't shell out for my ST before the initial deadline - it'll be very hard to see how the full amount can be charged next season - there is no way everyone will be able to confidently say they'll see all the games that a season ticket covers if the "rationing" implied by the above plans happens. That means a mix of streaming and actual attenance for most of us I think. How the clubs will work that pricing out I don't know. All things considered, I stil intend on going to games (90 mile round trip) when I can - midweeks could be a challenge but let's wait and see. Whether I get to sit in "my" seat (and my lad in his) I don't know. I can see seat reservations somehow being suspended for the 20/21 season.
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Post by therightside on Aug 7, 2020 12:40:31 GMT
It will be a very difficult job, trying to safely re-introduce fans to the grounds. I have a 130 mile round trip to home games, and would prefer to pay for, and keep my present place in the Boothen End for the coming season. I have had a season ticket for the same seat for each season since The Brit/365 opened in 1997. I am fully aware that I may not be able, or wish, to attend some game in the coming season due to the capacity rulings. I will also not be attending the ground when I have to sit for three hours in what is often a freezing cold ground, before the game even starts. However, I have made many valuable friendships over the years in the area where I sit, and I would be more than willing to pay for my 20/21 season ticket at an appropriate rate, as long as I could receive streaming of the home games, and could eventually return to my usual seat once the country, and the world, have returned to normality.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Aug 7, 2020 12:45:26 GMT
i think the season should not start till the fans can go to games football is just not the same without the fans,people may not agree but thats just my opinion, However someone's got to pay the wages of the wages of club staff (not just players)in the meantime. If TV and internet companies are willing to do that then we just have to go with it - otherwise there won't be much professional sport to go back to in a few months time.
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Post by onepara on Aug 7, 2020 12:51:54 GMT
Some. like me, have already bought next seasons match card. What if the terms of admission are not acceptable to me. Will I get a full refund of my money? If my name/number is picked as one of those who can attend a match, & decide not to, will I get a refund? As has already been mentioned, I am in my 80's & won't want to sit in the ground for hours on end. Especially in the winter months.
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Post by Not_Nick_H on Aug 7, 2020 12:57:32 GMT
Some. like me, have already bought next seasons match card. What if the terms of admission are not acceptable to me. Will I get a full refund of my money? If my name/number is picked as one of those who can attend a match, & decide not to, will I get a refund? As has already been mentioned, I am in my 80's & won't want to sit in the ground for hours on end. Especially in the winter months. I think this is one issue that the club (and supporters Council) will have to work out onepara. Nobody who renewed their ST before all this had any idea that the 20/21 season wouldn't be "normal". I think a refund or mix of refund/streaming like the last 9 games is one idea. I still don't know how any new renewals are going to be administered or priced though.
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Post by onepara on Aug 7, 2020 13:13:42 GMT
Some. like me, have already bought next seasons match card. What if the terms of admission are not acceptable to me. Will I get a full refund of my money? If my name/number is picked as one of those who can attend a match, & decide not to, will I get a refund? As has already been mentioned, I am in my 80's & won't want to sit in the ground for hours on end. Especially in the winter months. I think this is one issue that the club (and supporters Council) will have to work out onepara. Nobody who renewed their ST before all this had any idea that the 20/21 season wouldn't be "normal". I think a refund or mix of refund/streaming like the last 9 games is one idea. I still don't know how any new renewals are going to be administered or priced though. Thanks for your input. I, together with my 2 sons & grandson, have sat together since the ground opened & don't wish to lose our seats, hence why we renewed early. I would have thought that a full refund would be offered, with a reserve on the seats for future seasons.
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Post by houstonmike on Aug 7, 2020 13:17:26 GMT
I omitted to mention that the FSA has been fortunate to obtain the services, pro bono, of Harpreet Robertson to help us collate information on good and bad practice and advise our affiliates at Club level on the ticketing issues. As some of you may know Harpreet was until recently the FA's ticketing manager for England games and is also a match-going fan herself so has plenty of experience from both sides as it were. Her knowledge and experience will be very helpful to us at this time. Malcolm. This seems like a useful initiative that will be helpful to the Club and the Council going forward. Info needed sooner rather than later as Club already working on their plans. Do you know how the good/bad practices are going to be disseminated? Should the Club/Council be contacting Harpreet or will she be sending something out do you know? Thanks.
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Post by ange1 on Aug 7, 2020 14:08:47 GMT
Onepara. Please don’t worry. The club will not see anyone out of pocket.
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Post by ange1 on Aug 7, 2020 14:12:47 GMT
In case anyone missed the article. Every idea supplied (there were many) has been passed on to the club and each person received a response and thanks from SCFCSC
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Post by Miles Offside on Aug 7, 2020 14:18:09 GMT
Thanks, Malcolm.
Regardless of all the complex logistics relating to who can attend and under what circumstances, the simple point I'd like to make is that it's absolutely imperative live steaming will be on offer from the start of the season.
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Aug 7, 2020 14:33:45 GMT
Thanks as ever for your work , I won't bother if there are any restrictions , don't have the patience , happy to pay for streaming but small crowds or appointment check ins aint for me .
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 7, 2020 14:41:56 GMT
I omitted to mention that the FSA has been fortunate to obtain the services, pro bono, of Harpreet Robertson to help us collate information on good and bad practice and advise our affiliates at Club level on the ticketing issues. As some of you may know Harpreet was until recently the FA's ticketing manager for England games and is also a match-going fan herself so has plenty of experience from both sides as it were. Her knowledge and experience will be very helpful to us at this time. Malcolm. This seems like a useful initiative that will be helpful to the Club and the Council going forward. Info needed sooner rather than later as Club already working on their plans. Do you know how the good/bad practices are going to be disseminated? Should the Club/Council be contacting Harpreet or will she be sending something out do you know? Thanks. Thanks, Mike. Harpreet will obviously be dependent on the amount and speed of information which is made available to her by our members or which clubs put into the public domain. We have asked our affiliates to keep her posted. Hopefully there won't be too many examples of bad practice ! The Supporters Club will ensure that information is disseminated but anyone who wants to contact her directly either to get information or suggest ideas is more than welcome to do so. Harpreet.Robertson@thefsa.org.uk
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Post by Veritas on Aug 7, 2020 15:19:45 GMT
Many thanks to Malcolm for the update, arrival slots, reduced crowds etc far from ideal but I will be there.
There definitely needs to be free streaming for the games season ticket holders are not able to attend.
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Post by ange1 on Aug 7, 2020 15:49:47 GMT
Worth remembering that all clubs have paid experts, a Safety Office etc and local SAG to lead planning. It what’s they’re employed to do. The Supporters Council had a discussion with the club on the matter and were confident that the club will do whatever they can to ensure they cater for all fans given the difficulties and scenarios that as yet we don't fully know.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 7, 2020 16:22:04 GMT
Worth remembering that all clubs have paid experts, a Safety Office etc and local SAG to lead planning. It what’s they’re employed to do. The Supporters Council had a discussion with the club on the matter and were confident that the club will do whatever they can to ensure they cater for all fans given the difficulties and scenarios that as yet we don't fully know. Of course that's true, Ange, but unless the wider fan base has some understanding of the parameters, law and guidance within which the Club is operating, they can't understand the context. This knowledge is not something which should be kept within the confines of the Club,the SAG ( which in Stoke unlike many in the country does not have a supporter rep) or the Supporters Council. With all due respect to everyone involved, it shouldn't have been left to me to give that information. Even so, those rules don't cover the ticketing options which will be a matter for each club to decide. It is important to have a transparent debate about the possible options available, which might involve some difficult choices, and to share ideas and best practice between clubs.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Aug 7, 2020 17:49:42 GMT
Just puts more logic behind give the oxford vaccine to everyone over 50 on he Autumn and then herd immunity for the rest definitely must be i their thinking You're convinced we will be dishing out the 'Oxford vaccine' like candy in the next few weeks but I don't think it works like that, don't all new treatments need to go through months of rigorous FDA approval and that is why we keep hearing 18 months if at all? I’m convinced if it’s safe in the current trial they will use it as a stop gap minimum but it’s just a view
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Post by stokecity4life on Aug 7, 2020 18:20:26 GMT
For me i`ll do whatever is required to get back and watch Stoke.
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Post by onepara on Aug 7, 2020 20:03:12 GMT
Onepara. Please don’t worry. The club will not see anyone out of pocket. Yes, I know that Ange. I think that they do these things very well. I've already had my refund of this year.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 7, 2020 20:19:11 GMT
Ange, could the Supporters Council publish a list of the ideas which they passed on to the club (without the identity of the people submitting them) together with an indication of which ideas, if any, have been positively supported by the Council, and which, if any, have been opposed. I'm sure that many fans would like to see these, and it is important in the interests of transparency that fans know what has been put forward to the Club by the Council. It would also give other supporters the chance to express a view on them.
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Post by ange1 on Aug 7, 2020 21:59:05 GMT
The Sentinel article and the soon to be published Council minutes will likely lead to further fans suggestions. All of these have been and will be passed on to the Club. No idea is a bad idea whilst the ground rules for fans being allowed back are being established. The Council feel that it is too early to pass judgement or debate without the full facts. However as I said the club were very open regarding ideas and collaboration. As we all realise, this is a very challenging problem to deal with and managing everyone’s expectations will be difficult.
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Post by bridget on Aug 7, 2020 22:50:17 GMT
Having read the terms and conditions published on the Stoke City site re the purchasing of season tickets it clearly states that season tickets are subject to availability and are for entry to 23 league games in the 20-21 campaign. Surely if the number of tickets sold already exceed any likely new capacity then they can't legally sell more? They can change terms and conditions for people buying tickets from this point forward but not for those who have already purchased because the contract has already been entered into. In addition to that the CLUB have already instigated a system that prioritises the allocation of tickets using a loyalty points system that has been used many times previously so why is there a need for a huge debate surely this system should stand. As Malcolm has said there needs to be some clarity and openness in relation to seeing what was suggested and put forward. I can see that those that were willing to invest in the club in April not knowing what division the club were going to be playing in and when they were next going to be seeing games are going to be completley disregarded and shafted as usual by Mr Scholes et al because as is the norm with modern day football it will be all about the money.
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Post by mamasgloves on Aug 8, 2020 11:32:09 GMT
As I haven't seen much publicised locally I thought it might be helpful if I gave some information and a national perspective on the issues around the return of fans to stadia. Apologies to those readers who already know most or even all of this stuff. For those who want to read for themselves the key documents, they are firstly, Government policy as it now stands www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/elite-sport-return-to-competition-safe-return-of-spectatorsand secondly, the Sports Ground Safety Authority ( the quango which has responsibility for this area) draft rules, which as you will see are long and highly detailed www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/elite-sport-return-to-competition-safe-return-of-spectatorsThe season will start on 12 September, but fans will not be allowed back until 3 October at the earliest ( of course that could change if the virus situation worsens and/or there are local lockdowns). There may need to be some test events. The complex SGSA rules will mean that most grounds will probably be allowed 20%-40% capacity, i.e probably a max of about 11k in our case. It will not necessarily be even across a ground, but variable in different stands.There are complex issues here on the application of social distancing rules. One is whether there will have to be 1 seat or 2 between each spectator or group of spectators. Groups or families who are in a single household or a bubble will not need to have an empty seat or seats between them. Thus the more of those which attend the higher the allowed capacity. The major concerns are not about when the match is in progress when everyone is facing forward, but about entering and leaving the ground, the concourses, refreshment counters, toilets and transport to and from the ground. There is also obviously a tension between the normal security procedures involving pats down and the social distancing requirements for stewards.There is also a humorous side to some of this. One document talked about the need to take care when singing How exactly do you do that ? To avoid the normal late rush, it is likely that fans will be given an arrival time which could be up to 3 hours before kick-off. A bit like checking in for a flight. Miss your appointment and you won't get in. And we might have random temperature tests.The recording of names and contact details could have implications if clubs try to use it in other ways such as checking that there isn't abuse of the use of season cards. There may be suspension of some legislation and EFL rules. For example, if clubs want to introduce serving of alcoholic drink and food at seats to avoid crowding at the counters, possibly using an app to order it, the law might be changed to allow this. The EFL are likely to suspend their rules on away fans allocations. This will be a key issue with possibly reduced away allocations as a % of the total or no away fans at all. I think fans will want some reciprocity between clubs here. The FSA is putting forward some general principles such as fairness e.g corporates or more expensive seats should not be prioritised, or disabled fans de-prioritised. This situation should not be used as a back-door way of introducing controversial or unpopular changes which would then become the new norm. Most of the stuff about numbers, distancing etc., will be outside local control. But decisions on ticketing and pricing i.e what is the rationing policy on who gets into the ground will be within the control of individual clubs. This will obviously be an area of intense interest to fans. Do season card holders get priority ( which could mean all the tickets) ? How and at what level do the club refund those who don't get in ? Will streaming offers be part of that ? Are away fans allowed, if so how many ? How will tickets be allocated ? A ballot or existing loyalty points or some other method ? What is the approach in the allocation system to family groups who can sit next to each other ? And so on and so on. The FSA will be producing some checklists and guidance notes on this, as well as a database on what clubs are deciding. The EFL is encouraging clubs to consult local fans groups about all these questions. In my dual capacity as Chair of the Supporters club and Chair of the FSA, I wrote to ask for consultation but received the disappointing response that there wouldn't be any. However I then noticed in the Sentinel that there was a meeting between the Club and the Supporters Council about this a week ago today. I may have missed it ( if so apologies to those involved ) but I haven't noticed any report back to supporters after that meeting. Neither have I noticed any consultation by either the Club or the Council on the ticketing and rationing policies which might be adopted ( again, apologies if I've missed it). Some clubs have started consultation and in some cases taking some decisions on these issues. Of course it will be dependent on the numbers actually allowed but some of the principles could be discussed now. Both the Supporters club and the FSA would be interested to hear the views of fans. If you don't want to post on here, feel free to PM me or email to info@thefsa.org.uk I am sorry for such a long post, but it's difficult to cover all the issues briefly. If you have got this far, well done and I hope that at least some readers have found it useful. Thanks so much for that malcolm. If that staggered entry is implemented,possibly up to 3 hrs before the game,then I for one will not attend.being going stoke for 42 years,through thick and thin,lol.but that would finish it for me,I'm sad to say. The 42yrs of "thick and thin" can't have been very challenging if having to go earlier to a game stops you going 😁
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Aug 8, 2020 11:51:48 GMT
Having read the terms and conditions published on the Stoke City site re the purchasing of season tickets it clearly states that season tickets are subject to availability and are for entry to 23 league games in the 20-21 campaign. Surely if the number of tickets sold already exceed any likely new capacity then they can't legally sell more? They can change terms and conditions for people buying tickets from this point forward but not for those who have already purchased because the contract has already been entered into. In addition to that the CLUB have already instigated a system that prioritises the allocation of tickets using a loyalty points system that has been used many times previously so why is there a need for a huge debate surely this system should stand. As Malcolm has said there needs to be some clarity and openness in relation to seeing what was suggested and put forward. I can see that those that were willing to invest in the club in April not knowing what division the club were going to be playing in and when they were next going to be seeing games are going to be completley disregarded and shafted as usual by Mr Scholes et al because as is the norm with modern day football it will be all about the money. I think you have made a very powerful point, on both consumer law and loyalty grounds, which it is difficult to argue against, although no doubt some will hold the counter view that those who, for whatever reason, did not purchase an early bird season card should not be at a disadvantage in the new situation. The loyalty scheme until now has been used for away game allocation. There would no doubt be some opposition to a proposal to use it to prioritise access to home games. The key figure of course is how many 20/21 season cards have been sold in relation to the allowed capacity under the new arrangements. I will ask Harpreet for her view on the legal point you have made.
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Post by WorkingclassHero on Aug 8, 2020 12:03:38 GMT
I cant see a 40% full stadium being safe at all. 20% I think is more likely.
The sensible way of allocating tickets would obviously be like Ebay. Who ever is willing to pay the most gets in. Tbh I cant see demand being particularly high anyway. I know I dont want Covid this winter. No chance I'm going to try and get down Stoke this season.
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Post by WorkingclassHero on Aug 8, 2020 12:05:25 GMT
I cant see a 40% full stadium being safe at all. 20% I think is more likely.
The sensible way of allocating tickets would obviously be like Ebay. Who ever is willing to pay the most gets in. Tbh I cant see demand being particularly high anyway. I know I dont want Covid this winter. No chance I'm going to try and get down Stoke this season.
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