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Post by wagsastokie on Nov 18, 2020 13:23:18 GMT
Yet is still practiced in the largest democracy in the world India And the leader of the free world America To name a few I have a feeling if labour had won by thirty or forty seats then some of the opponents of first past the post would disappear into the wood work As for coalition’s imagine if labour had been the largest party and were relying on the wee jimmy krankie’s shambles and the viet taff to govern and pass laws in England that didn’t effect themselves There would rightly be uproar America's system is even more of a confusing mess than ours! Of course, every government that gets elected under FPTP doesn't want PR, blue or red! Why would they? It's not a party political thing, it's about having a modern, mature, representative democracy that works for more people, more of the time. Re your last point that has been the case for decades! And, therefore, all the more reason to break up the Union, if people object to having Scots, Welsh and N Irish having any input on legislation that affects England...you don't want Brussels having any say, you don't want non-English having any say, how far do you want to go? Back to the old kingdoms of England?! Maybe the Saxons had some good ideas unfortunately spoilt by a French invasion I’d be happy to be a east angle But back to reality what do I want the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland to be governed from Westminster By MPs elected by FPTP And if it is a devolved matter concerning England than only English MPs can vote
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 18, 2020 15:37:50 GMT
Yet is still practiced in the largest democracy in the world India And the leader of the free world America To name a few I have a feeling if labour had won by thirty or forty seats then some of the opponents of first past the post would disappear into the wood work As for coalition’s imagine if labour had been the largest party and were relying on the wee jimmy krankie’s shambles and the viet taff to govern and pass laws in England that didn’t effect themselves There would rightly be uproar America's system is even more of a confusing mess than ours! Of course, every government that gets elected under FPTP doesn't want PR, blue or red! Why would they? It's not a party political thing, it's about having a modern, mature, representative democracy that works for more people, more of the time. Re your last point that has been the case for decades! And, therefore, all the more reason to break up the Union, if people object to having Scots, Welsh and N Irish having any input on legislation that affects England...you don't want Brussels having any say, you don't want non-English having any say, how far do you want to go? Back to the old kingdoms of England?! I think the American system is another example of what you get when a bunch of "experts" get together to devise something. A bit like the old adage "a camel is a racehorse designed by a committee ". It is essentially a democratic version of the British system of monarch, Lords, and Commons with elections for each. The beauty of both system is they prevent absolute control by any person or group of people. That is also the feature of proportionate representation, but the downside of PR is: 1. Everyone gets the government it didn't vote for, e.g. LibDem ditching their manifesto in wanting power with Cameron and supporting austerity. I will never vote Liberal again. 2. Getting things done can become very problematic when a government doesn't have a majority, e.g. May's government, Italy, and in the 1970s The Netherlands went a year without a government. 3. Politicians do deals between parties, behind closed doors, and I don't trust them! All nations seem to have corrupt politicians and we need to be very wary of them and have the means of removing them. 4. Minority parties can hold the balance of power and have undue, undemocratic influence, e.g. Northern Ireland parties influence on May's government. 5. It becomes very difficult to actually remove a party from power, if you look at the German model, and I believe "power corrupts" and we should able to remove politicians and parties from power. I don't trust any of them. This is easier under the present one member per constituency. The beauty of our system is "the Portillos" of this world can be tossed out. They are alright with their pensions. We need to improve our system, but we need to tread very carefully and not create a career politicians paradise. Most of our politicians have never done "a proper job" and have scant knowledge of welfare, health, education, commerce, security, etc. Hence they are generally so poor at governing. (Ironically, now he has been educated, Portillo could make a good politician!) Regarding Scotland, their future should be in the hands of the Scots. If they want to break away from England and Wales that us up to them. If I lived in Scotland I would be pretty cheesed off with Whitehall government. I just don't want to pay for it. I have yet to meet a Scotsman living in England in favour of Scottish Independence, just as I have yet to meet Frenchman living in England in favour of Brexit.
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Post by mrcoke on Nov 18, 2020 15:45:56 GMT
America's system is even more of a confusing mess than ours! Of course, every government that gets elected under FPTP doesn't want PR, blue or red! Why would they? It's not a party political thing, it's about having a modern, mature, representative democracy that works for more people, more of the time. Re your last point that has been the case for decades! And, therefore, all the more reason to break up the Union, if people object to having Scots, Welsh and N Irish having any input on legislation that affects England...you don't want Brussels having any say, you don't want non-English having any say, how far do you want to go? Back to the old kingdoms of England?! Maybe the Saxons had some good ideas unfortunately spoilt by a French invasion I’d be happy to be a east angle But back to reality what do I want the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland to be governed from Westminster By MPs elected by FPTP And if it is a devolved matter concerning England than only English MPs can vote The Norman's weren't French, although they did introduce some French ideas like castles. They were actually "northmen" and were Vikings who had settled in Normandy. At that time, modern France was divided between different power bases like kingdoms of England, and only became a unified country (bar Monaco etc.) when English (Plantagenet) monarchs were turfed out.
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 20, 2020 6:53:36 GMT
Question Time tonight might be worth watching assuming there is a question on Boris Johnson calling devolution a disaster.
The reason is Ian Blackford, SNP leader in Westminster is on the panel along with Fraser Nelson of the Spectator (who despite sounding as English as you could get is in fact Scottish).
Nelson, on the Spectator podcast this week, gave a superb argument about why Devolution has been a disaster. It’s the response Johnson should have given. He is saying devolution has been a disaster for the poor in Scotland.
I’m looking forward to seeing Blackford respond to that.
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Post by yeokel on Nov 20, 2020 10:26:38 GMT
Question Time tonight might be worth watching assuming there is a question on Boris Johnson calling devolution a disaster. The reason is Ian Blackford, SNP leader in Westminster is on the panel along with Fraser Nelson of the Spectator (who despite sounding as English as you could get is in fact Scottish). Nelson, on the Spectator podcast this week, gave a superb argument about why Devolution has been a disaster. It’s the response Johnson should have given. He is saying devolution has been a disaster for the poor in Scotland. I’m looking forward to seeing Blackford respond to that. It was on last night, wasn't it?
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Post by partickpotter on Nov 20, 2020 10:31:57 GMT
Question Time tonight might be worth watching assuming there is a question on Boris Johnson calling devolution a disaster. The reason is Ian Blackford, SNP leader in Westminster is on the panel along with Fraser Nelson of the Spectator (who despite sounding as English as you could get is in fact Scottish). Nelson, on the Spectator podcast this week, gave a superb argument about why Devolution has been a disaster. It’s the response Johnson should have given. He is saying devolution has been a disaster for the poor in Scotland. I’m looking forward to seeing Blackford respond to that. It was on last night, wasn't it? I’m behind the times!! I’ll check it out on iPlayer later. Just had a look... Blackford’s face was a picture as Nelson set out how devolution has been a disaster for the poor in Scotland, Blackford did respond with a bunch of stuff, but it his usual bluster pish that Nelson was able to show for example the number of children from poor backgrounds entering university is Scotland is half the level in England after 21 years of devolution whereas previously it was higher!!!! Add to that the failure of devolution to address the problems of life expectancy in the poor. Blackford preferred to quote the overall average life expectancy is increasing ignoring the reality that that is down to the well off living longer. I wonder if any of the feeble opposition in Scotland will ever be able to raise these issues. On the basis of last night’s programme, I’ll not hold my breath.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 20, 2020 10:49:06 GMT
51 yes; 40 no according to latest poll (YouGov)
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Nov 20, 2020 10:50:46 GMT
Maybe the Saxons had some good ideas unfortunately spoilt by a French invasion I’d be happy to be a east angle But back to reality what do I want the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland to be governed from Westminster By MPs elected by FPTP And if it is a devolved matter concerning England than only English MPs can vote The Norman's weren't French, although they did introduce some French ideas like castles. They were actually "northmen" and were Vikings who had settled in Normandy. At that time, modern France was divided between different power bases like kingdoms of England, and only became a unified country (bar Monaco etc.) when English (Plantagenet) monarchs were turfed out. The Plantagenets were not English
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Post by longdistancekiddie on May 8, 2021 18:17:09 GMT
Looks like the Taff's and the Jocks will be leaving
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Post by Dave the Rave on May 8, 2021 18:25:49 GMT
Looks like the Taff's and the Jocks will be leaving As is their democratic right. Never again should the will of the people be denied.
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Post by partickpotter on May 8, 2021 18:46:52 GMT
Looks like the Taff's and the Jocks will be leaving Sturgeon is bigging up the win, but she knows a win in an independence referendum is far from certain. A lot of folk still, incredibly, vote for her party but don’t support independence. A while ago she said she wouldn’t want another referendum until a win was riding at 60+% for a sustained period. That level of support hasn’t been reached. And actual support has fallen in recent weeks back to the levels of 2014. The depressing thing is that constitutional questions will continue to dom8nate Scottish politics allowing the SNP Government to avoid any meaningful accountability for their performance in Government which has been shocking. But... there’s always the hills.
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Post by thevoid on May 8, 2021 19:09:08 GMT
Looks like the Taff's and the Jocks will be leaving And how are we reaching that conclusion, Plaid coming third behind Labour and the Conservatives? Or Leanne Wood losing her seat? Perhaps it's based on Wales being forced out of the EU against their will...ah, maybe not. There's very little clamour for independence in Wales. And even the SNP look unlikely to reach their cherished overall majority. Have you even read the results?
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Post by thevoid on May 8, 2021 19:10:55 GMT
Looks like the Taff's and the Jocks will be leaving As is their democratic right. Never again should the will of the people be denied. As opposed to 2014 when the will of the people...er, wasn't denied?
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Post by Dave the Rave on May 8, 2021 19:14:47 GMT
As is their democratic right. Never again should the will of the people be denied. As opposed to 2014 when the will of the people...er, wasn't denied? No, but we all know the will of the people was constantly trying to be thwarted over Brexit. Politicians wouldn't dare try that again, surely?
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Post by longdistancekiddie on May 8, 2021 19:15:49 GMT
Looks like the Taff's and the Jocks will be leaving And how are we reaching that conclusion, Plaid coming third behind Labour and the Conservatives? Or Leanne Wood losing her seat? Perhaps it's based on Wales being forced out of the EU against their will...ah, maybe not. There's very little clamour for independence in Wales. And even the SNP look unlikely to reach their cherished overall majority. Have you even read the results? The people of those countries have voted for the the complete opposite of the English vote. Plaid Cymru and Labour together would go for independence SNP and the Scottish Labour Party will go for independence They want to be independent nations with their own sovereignty,,
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Post by partickpotter on May 8, 2021 19:25:25 GMT
And how are we reaching that conclusion, Plaid coming third behind Labour and the Conservatives? Or Leanne Wood losing her seat? Perhaps it's based on Wales being forced out of the EU against their will...ah, maybe not. There's very little clamour for independence in Wales. And even the SNP look unlikely to reach their cherished overall majority. Have you even read the results? The people of those countries have voted for the the complete opposite of the English vote. Plaid Cymru and Labour together would go for independence SNP and the Scottish Labour Party will go for independence They want to be independent nations with their own sovereignty,, Total pish.
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Post by longdistancekiddie on May 8, 2021 19:43:07 GMT
The people of those countries have voted for the the complete opposite of the English vote. Plaid Cymru and Labour together would go for independence SNP and the Scottish Labour Party will go for independence They want to be independent nations with their own sovereignty,, Total pish. Not your usual good reply Pat. Scotland could do well as a independent nation, they could go for a Scandinavian type of country model,
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Post by thehartshillbadger on May 8, 2021 19:44:45 GMT
Not your usual good reply Pat. Scotland could do well as a independent nation, they could go for a Scandinavian type of country model, As you know, you don’t need many words to make a valid point!
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Post by lordb on May 8, 2021 19:48:22 GMT
Not your usual good reply Pat. Scotland could do well as a independent nation, they could go for a Scandinavian type of country model, Labour are not pro independence in either Scotland or Wales What's clear is the interest in independence is strong in Scotland and not strong (but there in the background) in Wales My view is N Ireland will leave first
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Post by thevoid on May 8, 2021 20:00:41 GMT
And how are we reaching that conclusion, Plaid coming third behind Labour and the Conservatives? Or Leanne Wood losing her seat? Perhaps it's based on Wales being forced out of the EU against their will...ah, maybe not. There's very little clamour for independence in Wales. And even the SNP look unlikely to reach their cherished overall majority. Have you even read the results? The people of those countries have voted for the the complete opposite of the English vote. Plaid Cymru and Labour together would go for independence SNP and the Scottish Labour Party will go for independence They want to be independent nations with their own sovereignty,, Well it's a little bit difficult for Wales and Scotland to vote the same way as England given that the SNP and Plaid aren't registered here. And Labour has usually been the dominant force in Welsh politics, unlike England. That's nothing new. OK, Scotland is a completely different kettle of fish but as lord has said, Scottish (and Welsh) Labour are not pro-independence- maybe you're confusing them with the Greens? Again, apart from the rather large enclave of pixies who seemingly reside in your head, what are you basing this on? If Wales held an IndyRef tomorrow, what's your prediction? I'll go for Yes 24% No 76% but please, give us your scores on the doors.
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Post by wagsastokie on May 8, 2021 20:11:46 GMT
Not your usual good reply Pat. Scotland could do well as a independent nation, they could go for a Scandinavian type of country model, Labour are not pro independence in either Scotland or Wales What's clear is the interest in independence is strong in Scotland and not strong (but there in the background) in Wales My view is N Ireland will leave first N Ireland won’t leave in my lifetime and I intend to hang around a while
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Post by partickpotter on May 9, 2021 8:08:54 GMT
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Post by lordb on May 9, 2021 8:44:23 GMT
Labour are not pro independence in either Scotland or Wales What's clear is the interest in independence is strong in Scotland and not strong (but there in the background) in Wales My view is N Ireland will leave first N Ireland won’t leave in my lifetime and I intend to hang around a while Didn't say it would be soon😀
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Post by raythesailor on May 9, 2021 8:55:31 GMT
I am sitting here on Sunday morning and Nichola Cranky is due to come on the Andrew Marr program.
I have turned over to Steve Wright’s love songs.
That summarises my opinion of her and her party. ⚓️
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Post by peekay67 on May 9, 2021 9:26:52 GMT
I can’t get my head around independence from Westminster, but subservience to Brussels. How is this independence? You only had to see Sturgeon’s response to Boris Johnson’s Covid unlocking. Basically, slag it off, see how it goes, then do the same two weeks later. I can’t see true leadership from her, beyond the sound bites. I was dead set against independence in 2014, but I say now, let them go with the caveat that they’re not coming back. I guess they don't have the same problem with being an independent country in the EU that the Brexiteers do? Perhaps they don't see it as subservience like Brexiteers do? We are not an independent country anymore. We now jump to the tune of the EU, I know, ironic, US, China and possibly Russia. We are not even a fish in a large pond, but a toddler in an ocean. We will learn, but we have to reach the bottom first. I really hope the Tories have a credible plan, but it seems unlikely. We need single market and customs union access for starters. But this was obvious. We are basically a huge experiment for multi billionaires who care not for our futures.
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Post by peekay67 on May 9, 2021 9:29:21 GMT
Politically maybe so, from a logical point of view it’s slightly absurd. I’m also worried by any party that has ‘Nationalist’ in its title, never ended well. They don't have nationalist in their title, nor are they nationalist in the way the BNP is nationalist or the National Socialist German Workers Party was. The latter two being far right parties. Similarly, the Liberal Party in Australia is more like our Tory Party. I wouldn't get too hung up on a name. Johnson always calls them the nationalist party so it must be correct. That's the problem. Soft psychology and dupe the public.
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Post by prestwichpotter on May 9, 2021 9:35:25 GMT
Not your usual good reply Pat. Scotland could do well as a independent nation, they could go for a Scandinavian type of country model, Labour are not pro independence in either Scotland or Wales What's clear is the interest in independence is strong in Scotland and not strong (but there in the background) in Wales My view is N Ireland will leave first Labour should be pro union, but also pro a second independence referendum in my opinion. Argue the virtues of the union but giving Scots a democratic vote on the back of Brexit, they're dead in the water north of the border so it can't do them any harm.......
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Post by xchpotter on May 9, 2021 9:35:42 GMT
Interesting view that. I wonder if this meeting he has invited the other home nations to will help or hinder. As with all politicians, there are some mighty egos to be dealt with and I’m not sure they are capable of overriding these in the interests of the people they represent.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on May 9, 2021 9:43:23 GMT
I guess they don't have the same problem with being an independent country in the EU that the Brexiteers do? Perhaps they don't see it as subservience like Brexiteers do? We are not an independent country anymore. We now jump to the tune of the EU, I know, ironic, US, China and possibly Russia. We are not even a fish in a large pond, but a toddler in an ocean. We will learn, but we have to reach the bottom first. I really hope the Tories have a credible plan, but it seems unlikely. We need single market and customs union access for starters. But this was obvious. We are basically a huge experiment for multi billionaires who care not for our futures. I'm not sure it really matters if the Tories have a credible plan or not, there'll be some populist bollocks trotted out for everyone to rally behind when it counts...
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Post by felonious on May 9, 2021 9:57:54 GMT
We are not an independent country anymore. We now jump to the tune of the EU, I know, ironic, US, China and possibly Russia. We are not even a fish in a large pond, but a toddler in an ocean. We will learn, but we have to reach the bottom first. I really hope the Tories have a credible plan, but it seems unlikely. We need single market and customs union access for starters. But this was obvious. We are basically a huge experiment for multi billionaires who care not for our futures. I'm not sure it really matters if the Tories have a credible plan or not, there'll be some populist bollocks trotted out for everyone to rally behind when it counts... Quick question. In your long history of voting for every party and cause North and South of the border have you ever, by chance, voted for the Tories?
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