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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2020 8:54:00 GMT
There’s a lot of wisdom after the event here. I was okay with both Rowett’s and Jones’ appointments. I seem to think most of us were cautiously hopeful and we got behind them - You see the thinking behind the appointment and hope it works. When it doesn’t work, you begin to look for someone to blame, but not many could honestly say that, at the time the appointments were made, we thought they were bad decisions by the board. The common problem to which all managers, post-Hughes, seem to allude Is inheriting players who would only come here if we offered them big and long contracts. When manager’s change, these players become unneeded/unwanted and ultimately they do not want to be here. Why is it that players like Afobe and Hogan who were thought of as poor at Stoke, become brilliant when they go somewhere else. And there are a lot of these players and we cannot shift them all. One of my neighbours is Millwall’s FD. He told me that they wanted to take Lee Gregory off us, but we are paying him something like £20k more per week than Millwall could afford (I cannot recall the exact amount, but it is something ludicrous). That is just one example of a broader issue. The players are not going to willingly give up that level of wage and the manager cannot ship all of them out on loan. So we are stuck with The wrong players, with bad attitudes and low morale. And each new manager cannot just ‘fuck-em off’ - which is generally the advice the club gets from here. That is what Jones could not deal with. He may not be the best manager, but his performance at Stoke was alarmingly poor by his own record. But is that really the board being incompetent. The board is clearly backing the manager with large transfer funds. Maybe our negotiators are not sharp enough, but generally the board is spending - which is the only real thing that they can do. But when you churn through too many managers too quickly, it is impossible to off-load the last manager’s players. Hughes was now four managers ago, but we still have players on the books that Hughes bought (Wimmer, Entebo, N’daiye). In the meantime, we are so close to fucking up under FFP because of this and the board have to deal with that. And every time we fire a manager that problem gets worse. I think the board have made some questionable judgements, but I think it is more complex that we as fans appreciate. I agree with pretty much all of this , but it is the board being incompetent. When it all goes pear shaped TS loves to pretend he is just an £800,000 a year, bean counter. He isn't , he is the CEO . He is a CEO , who signed a player for 12 million on a massive mega money contract , who couldn't play because he was banned , due to failing an FA drug test . He is a CEO who paid 18 million for a player from spurs reserves , on a massive mega money contract , who had only played the odd game , when someone was injured . Let's be honest these are sacking offences , it not backing the manager , it's incompetent stupidity to sign off millions on reserve players with no prem experience and druggies who failed an fa drug test . He has to be strong enough to say to some daft manager , with mad ideas like this ... No you can't spend 12 million on a player banned from playing or 18 million on a reserve player , who never plays , unless there is a catalogue of injuries. If he is not strong enough to do that .Then he shouldn't be our £800,000 a year CEO . Get someone in , who knows what they are doing
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jul 20, 2020 8:58:15 GMT
I really disliked the way Jones behaved after games, the chest beating and so on, I really felt it was all about Jones the few times it went well and the players' fault every time it went the other way. I really don't understand why a lot of people thought so well about him!? I think we (we’ll me at least!) wanted to like him and wanted to succeed.... we’d had a crap few years and this young, up and coming manager turned up and was talking a great game. Can we please stop perpetuating this fallacy about his age. It's a lazy description and already been identified as incorrect. As for talking a great game he's football's answer to David Brent.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 20, 2020 9:18:37 GMT
I think the difference is where he started from. No playing career to hold up like Lampard and Gerrard, no real success in management apart from with a small club and managing players who thought they were Premiership quality are not going to respect you especially when your tactics don't work. I don't even necessarily think it would have been conscious disrespect just a feeling of he's done nothing to prove he's good enough for this club. I can't remember the start of the Waddington years or what players were at the club but anyway it was a totally different era when respect for figures of authority was a given, not something which had to be earned. Although only 3 years older O'Neill has the aura of a far more mature person - done that, seen that, nothing is surprising or excites me and I have every confidence in what I am doing, so starts with more respect than Jones who just appeared to be of similar age to the players and on a great adventure. Lacking maturity is probably a better description than being too young. Doesn't make him a bad manager or evil person though. If he lacks maturity at 47 then he's in the wrong job! You painted him out to be somebody starting out in management, maybe their early 30s, he's clearly not. Again I'll argue his playing and coaching career mirrors Pulis but only one of them was capable of demanding the respect required despite their apparent hamstring of a lower level playing career. He's as culpable for the situation he created as anybody else, and given that O'Neill rescued us from the shambles that Jones created, clearly out of his depth. Pulis did not inherit a squad of premiership has beens or a fan base expecting immediate promotion both of which made Jones's job more difficult. Maturity has nothing to do with age. I know some forty year olds who act as if they're still 18 and conversely some twenty year olds with very mature heads on their shoulders. It has nothing to do with ability either. I also suspect, without any evidence apart from perception, that Pulis had a much harder upbringing and nobody would choose to get into a confrontation with him - apart from Beattie that is and perhaps if that incident had happened at the start of his Stoke career Pulis would have struggled with the dressing room. Regardless of age the perception of Jones in my mind is of a much younger, less streetwise man than Pulis was when he became our manager. I have said Jones was not the man for Stoke and did not do a good job but that does not mean he will not develop into a good manager. I am just appalled by the abuse he is receiving from fans and have empathy for him in the situation he found himself.
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Post by spitthedog on Jul 20, 2020 9:23:04 GMT
When we appointed Jones I can't remember anyone coming on here and saying it was bad appointment. (I'm pretty sure I would have noticed)
Its funny how all those saying it was were very quiet at that time.
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Post by mamasgloves on Jul 20, 2020 9:40:25 GMT
The irony is that the ones with sympathy for Jones are some of the first to spew bile at Rowett - just be honest, you were taken in by his bullshit
He was an unmitigated disaster in every single sense, some are just too easily led
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Post by kidcrewbob on Jul 20, 2020 9:53:01 GMT
When we appointed Jones I can't remember anyone coming on here and saying it was bad appointment. (I'm pretty sure I would have noticed) Its funny how all those saying it was were very quiet at that time. Most had never heard of him - so nonplussed would be a better description. I thought at the time that he couldn't be worse than Rowett - but Jones took being shit to a different level and made me wish we had stuck it with Rowett. That said, both Rowett and Lambert both made me wish we'd stuck with Hughes in the relegation season as the timing of the sacking was ridiculous and to no advantage whatsoever. Hopefully MoN can become the next Fergie!!
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Post by lostinafrenchbar on Jul 20, 2020 10:13:14 GMT
It was a bad appointment. Bad for the club, bad for the players, bad for the fans, bad for Luton and very bad for Nathan Jones. We'll get over it and so might Luton, but he won't.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jul 20, 2020 10:21:25 GMT
If he lacks maturity at 47 then he's in the wrong job! You painted him out to be somebody starting out in management, maybe their early 30s, he's clearly not. Again I'll argue his playing and coaching career mirrors Pulis but only one of them was capable of demanding the respect required despite their apparent hamstring of a lower level playing career. He's as culpable for the situation he created as anybody else, and given that O'Neill rescued us from the shambles that Jones created, clearly out of his depth. Pulis did not inherit a squad of premiership has beens or a fan base expecting immediate promotion both of which made Jones's job more difficult. Maturity has nothing to do with age. I know some forty year olds who act as if they're still 18 and conversely some twenty year olds with very mature heads on their shoulders. It has nothing to do with ability either. I also suspect, without any evidence apart from perception, that Pulis had a much harder upbringing and nobody would choose to get into a confrontation with him - apart from Beattie that is and perhaps if that incident had happened at the start of his Stoke career Pulis would have struggled with the dressing room. Regardless of age the perception of Jones in my mind is of a much younger, less streetwise man than Pulis was when he became our manager. I have said Jones was not the man for Stoke and did not do a good job but that does not mean he will not develop into a good manager. I am just appalled by the abuse he is receiving from fans and have empathy for him in the situation he found himself. So if he's immature at 47 what's he doing as a football manager? If he's not mature enough for the role at that age then he's going to struggle to get much further. If that's the case at best he'd be better off as somebody's assistant playing good cop to their bad cop.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 20, 2020 10:22:31 GMT
The irony is that the ones with sympathy for Jones are some of the first to spew bile at Rowett - just be honest, you were taken in by his bullshit He was an unmitigated disaster in every single sense, some are just too easily led No, I actually thought Rowett was a good fit for Stoke and was slightly sceptical of Jones but thought it might be one of those changes of direction which actually came off (a bit like the signing of Bojan). I always thought fans got on Rowett's back far too soon but could see that he brought it on himself. I wasn't taken in by Jones's rhetoric but did think it was a nice change to hear someone sounding enthusiastic. I admired his bravery for coming out to thank the fans whatever the result had been. I thought Rowett did a much better job but treated fans with disrespect.
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Post by scfc75 on Jul 20, 2020 10:24:49 GMT
I think we (we’ll me at least!) wanted to like him and wanted to succeed.... we’d had a crap few years and this young, up and coming manager turned up and was talking a great game. Can we please stop perpetuating this fallacy about his age. It's a lazy description and already been identified as incorrect. As for talking a great game he's football's answer to David Brent. Nope.
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Post by superpej on Jul 20, 2020 10:27:17 GMT
Only one person decided to take the job offered and that was Nathan himself - seduced by JC's flattery & the money on offer plus blinded by his arrogance and misplaced self -belief. He ended up on his arse and nearly wrecked the club. I have no sympathy for the fool and all his chest thumping god bothering ways. Just say I was not taken in from the start.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 20, 2020 10:38:49 GMT
Pulis did not inherit a squad of premiership has beens or a fan base expecting immediate promotion both of which made Jones's job more difficult. Maturity has nothing to do with age. I know some forty year olds who act as if they're still 18 and conversely some twenty year olds with very mature heads on their shoulders. It has nothing to do with ability either. I also suspect, without any evidence apart from perception, that Pulis had a much harder upbringing and nobody would choose to get into a confrontation with him - apart from Beattie that is and perhaps if that incident had happened at the start of his Stoke career Pulis would have struggled with the dressing room. Regardless of age the perception of Jones in my mind is of a much younger, less streetwise man than Pulis was when he became our manager. I have said Jones was not the man for Stoke and did not do a good job but that does not mean he will not develop into a good manager. I am just appalled by the abuse he is receiving from fans and have empathy for him in the situation he found himself. So if he's immature at 47 what's he doing as a football manager? If he's not mature enough for the role at that age then he's going to struggle to get much further. If that's the case at best he'd be better off as somebody's assistant playing good cop to their bad cop. There are different ways of getting respect. Jones's approach is to be enthusiastic and emotional which I agree is a far more difficult approach to take as a football manager but it worked for him as a player. I would suggest that it is the Klopp approach who too is quite an immature character at times. Pulis's approach is to put the fear of God into players. I would suggest that is not respect but fear but works in the same way at first and gets immediate results. Ferguson was the greatest proponent. Jones's approach requires a greater length of time with players who need to learn to trust and respect you but also like you and want to do well for you which is what happened at Luton but was never going to succeed in the situation at Stoke.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 20, 2020 10:43:25 GMT
Only one person decided to take the job offered and that was Nathan himself - seduced by JC's flattery & the money on offer plus blinded by his arrogance and misplaced self -belief. He ended up on his arse and nearly wrecked the club. I have no sympathy for the fool and all his chest thumping god bothering ways. Just say I was not taken in from the start. The most successful people have to have incredible self belief which can often come over as arrogance when it goes wrong. No I am not saying Jones is successful but that that self belief in taking on challenges has to be there to succeed.
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Post by sheds1862 on Jul 20, 2020 10:49:11 GMT
When we appointed Jones I can't remember anyone coming on here and saying it was bad appointment. (I'm pretty sure I would have noticed) Its funny how all those saying it was were very quiet at that time. I did . Told people he was a smug prick with a huge ego when he joined. No hindsight, I also said that the Cowley sisters were of a similar ilk
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Post by tosh on Jul 20, 2020 11:41:34 GMT
When we appointed Jones I can't remember anyone coming on here and saying it was bad appointment. (I'm pretty sure I would have noticed) Its funny how all those saying it was were very quiet at that time. I did . Told people he was a smug prick with a huge ego when he joined. No hindsight, I also said that the Cowley sisters were of a similar ilk Maybe the club should be offering you a job then! I think a lot of us were surprised by the choice, but liked his enthusiasm initially, and when we looked at his short but very impressive Luton record and their goals for stats, we wondered about his inexperience but crossed our fingers. I think he believed his own stats as well and genuinely believed he could work his magic at Stoke. Unfortunately he turned out to be totally unsuitable and inexperienced for our situation and a disastrous choice. I still believe he gave it everything he had, but it turned out he had taken on a job beyond his competence.
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Post by mamasgloves on Jul 20, 2020 11:51:54 GMT
Only one person decided to take the job offered and that was Nathan himself - seduced by JC's flattery & the money on offer plus blinded by his arrogance and misplaced self -belief. He ended up on his arse and nearly wrecked the club. I have no sympathy for the fool and all his chest thumping god bothering ways. Just say I was not taken in from the start. The most successful people have to have incredible self belief which can often come over as arrogance when it goes wrong. No I am not saying Jones is successful but that that self belief in taking on challenges has to be there to succeed. You're right. But I have yet to hear another coach so openly self-congratulatory, it was cringeworthy
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Post by upthefud on Jul 20, 2020 12:04:27 GMT
Nathan Jones is possibly the most unlucky manager we’ve had, as much as you earn your own luck. I’m obviously delighted he went and couldn’t believe he got as long as he did, but if we break down our opening games...
1-2 QPR - butland howler at 0-0
1-3 Charlton, hit woodwork twice, Gregory open goal, Butland howler at 0-0
2-2 Derby, if memory serves me right we absolutely battered them, hit the woodwork a couple of times
1-3 Preston, Jack fucking Butland
0-3 Leeds, don’t remember it
1-2 Birmingham, Allen missed open goal?
1-2 Bristol City, don’t remember it
By this point, confidence was obviously shattered and we looked like an absolute sack of shit, he rightfully went.
I do wonder what would have happened if Butland would have left in the summer, of if Jones had the balls to cull him
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Post by spitthedog on Jul 20, 2020 12:05:07 GMT
Jones was a gamble
Rowett was a gamble
O'Neill was a gamble
Hughes was a gamble
Pulis was a gamble
Lambert.......well I don't know how to describe that one (likeable bloke though!)
There are very few nail-on certainties (if any) when it comes to appointing a football manager.
Out of those O'Neill has been perhaps the biggest gamble of them all. No League management experience at all!!...Nice when they come off eh!!!
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Post by GeneralFaye on Jul 21, 2020 6:35:47 GMT
Jones was a gamble Rowett was a gamble O'Neill was a gamble Hughes was a gamble Pulis was a gamble Lambert.......well I don't know how to describe that one (likeable bloke though!) There are very few nail-on certainties (if any) when it comes to appointing a football manager. Out of those O'Neill has been perhaps the biggest gamble of them all. No League management experience at all!!...Nice when they come off eh!!! Indeed he was a gamble from that point of view BUT he's exactly what we needed in terms of gaining immediate respect from the players due to his achievements with Northern Ireland which I believe Jones and Rowett never came close to getting.
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Post by zerps on Jul 21, 2020 7:28:38 GMT
Nath is a decent bloke.
You can’t say that about Rowett.
Shit happens, Nath tried his best. Good luck to him.
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Post by mamasgloves on Jul 21, 2020 8:04:16 GMT
Nathan Jones is possibly the most unlucky manager we’ve had, as much as you earn your own luck. I’m obviously delighted he went and couldn’t believe he got as long as he did, but if we break down our opening games... 1-2 QPR - butland howler at 0-0 1-3 Charlton, hit woodwork twice, Gregory open goal, Butland howler at 0-0 2-2 Derby, if memory serves me right we absolutely battered them, hit the woodwork a couple of times 1-3 Preston, Jack fucking Butland 0-3 Leeds, don’t remember it 1-2 Birmingham, Allen missed open goal? 1-2 Bristol City, don’t remember it By this point, confidence was obviously shattered and we looked like an absolute sack of shit, he rightfully went. I do wonder what would have happened if Butland would have left in the summer, of if Jones had the balls to cull him All under the control of Jones who kept playing Butland and signed goal-shy strikers like Gregory to miss the target in the first place. The teams were generally disjointed from game to game from his constant chopping and changing of personnel so it's unsurprising that they struggled for any kind of form or momentum anywhere on the pitch
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Post by mamasgloves on Jul 21, 2020 8:06:11 GMT
Nath is a decent bloke. You can’t say that about Rowett. Shit happens, Nath tried his best. Good luck to him. So if we had gone down this season (which would have been entirely on Jones' head) you'd have just thought "shit happens" and doffed your cap? Fuck me, he did a right number on some of you lot didn't he?
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Post by torgaustokie on Jul 21, 2020 8:09:47 GMT
God Bothering Idiot is the term i think best describes him, henceforth let him be known as GBI
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Post by roylandstoke on Jul 21, 2020 8:21:44 GMT
Worst manager of SCFC in my lifetime. Probably the worst in our history.
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Post by Goonie on Jul 21, 2020 9:09:59 GMT
Worst manager of SCFC in my lifetime. Probably the worst in our history. The worse bit was that it was always someone else's fault yet being a manager you have to take responsibility for those beneath you - you train them, you choose the matchday squad, the tactics, the substitutions all of which were poor on average and showed he was out of his depth A loss for Luton tonight would be nice so he can ply his trade at the right level as his ambition exceeded his ability God willing
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Post by Goonie on Jul 21, 2020 9:11:47 GMT
God Bothering Idiot is the term i think best describes him, henceforth let him be known as GBI Delusional God Bothering Imbecile DGBI 🤣✝️
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Post by sheds1862 on Jul 21, 2020 9:17:48 GMT
Nath is a decent bloke. You can’t say that about Rowett. Shit happens, Nath tried his best. Good luck to him. What are you basing this on ? Nathan was so decent and righteous that he received his Luton manager of the month award in his Stoke kit. Then had to pitifully grovel when he went back. . Rowett made the mistake of criticising the fans , that was his fatal error although it hasn't really done McClean any harm doing the same thing I never ever and never will get the absolute lie that our Nath is a lovely cheeky chappy. He's simply not.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 21, 2020 9:24:10 GMT
The irony is that the ones with sympathy for Jones are some of the first to spew bile at Rowett - just be honest, you were taken in by his bullshit He was an unmitigated disaster in every single sense, some are just too easily led His bullshit thats worked at Luton for some time, its not a surprise is it, he's got a good record and has played some good attacking football he could have been a breath of fresh air compared to some of the dross we've had over the last few seasons, it didn't work unfortunatley as we all know it was a huge desaster and you'd expect with the group we have that most managers could keep them in at least a safe position. Oh well, we move on, at least he didn't spend 50/60mil to not improve the team, but using Jones as some sort of defence of Rowett is just as bad, they were both disasters for different reasons.
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Post by Gary Hackett on Jul 21, 2020 9:31:28 GMT
When we appointed Jones I can't remember anyone coming on here and saying it was bad appointment. (I'm pretty sure I would have noticed) Its funny how all those saying it was were very quiet at that time. You must have a short memory, I didn't want him (or Rowett) and was extremely vocal about it.
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Post by zerps on Jul 21, 2020 9:37:19 GMT
Nath is a decent bloke. You can’t say that about Rowett. Shit happens, Nath tried his best. Good luck to him. So if we had gone down this season (which would have been entirely on Jones' head) you'd have just thought "shit happens" and doffed your cap? Fuck me, he did a right number on some of you lot didn't he? I think you’ll find our dire shit state wasn’t his doing. Having a short memory is convenient. The rot started way before we’d even heard of Nath. He just couldn’t stop it, as per his predecessors.
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