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Post by realstokebloke on Jul 19, 2020 8:50:41 GMT
Him and Rowett were absolutely diabolical appointments. We should have gone straight beck up had we have made the right appointment. I wouldn't piss on either of them if they were on fire Thankfully we've got someone who knows what they're doing, something we haven't had for 4 years since Hughes lost the plot. You forgot the worst of the lot arguably: a certain Paul Lambert.
You know, the managerial appointment absolutely crucial to keeping us in the PL and one made, despite all the dilly dallying with LMH, with enough time to make it happen.
All in the realms of "ifs, buts & maybes" of course, but (see?) the subsequent "diabolical appointments", you'd hope at least, would never have happened.
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Post by kidcrewbob on Jul 19, 2020 8:52:21 GMT
Not a bad man in my view just a complete and utter nut job......
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Post by Goonie on Jul 19, 2020 8:53:23 GMT
He wasn't the man for the problems at Stoke, too young and inexperienced. Pure revisionism. When Jones took over he was 2 years older than Tony Pulis was when he first became manager in 2002. Arguably Pulis joined the club in as big a mess as we are now, dealing with the death throes of the Icelandic period of ownership and in a similar league position to that inherited by O'Neill. I believe the situation bears fair comparison. Both Jones and Pulis are apparently students of the game who both got into coaching relatively early on in their career. I guess there the similarities end and it just boils down to force of personality and capability. Jones does not deserve to get off lightly for his part in what he put us through. Well said I dont hate jones, but his self-belief and ambitions were greater than his ability and the players, club and fan base suffered as a result of this self-delusion
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2020 8:56:40 GMT
He wasn't the man for the problems at Stoke, too young and inexperienced. That was not his fault, it's what he inherited and even O'Neil has said he anticipated a difficult job but underestimated how difficult. Rowett said much the same. The decline started during the Hughes reign and as I keep saying I was told two years ago by someone who knows/knew the inside of the club well it runs very deep and is not just the manager and squad Would you mind expanding on that statement please? Where and what are the issues at our club if it isn't manager or squad related?
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 19, 2020 9:00:01 GMT
He wasn't the man for the problems at Stoke, too young and inexperienced. That was not his fault, it's what he inherited and even O'Neil has said he anticipated a difficult job but underestimated how difficult. Rowett said much the same. The decline started during the Hughes reign and as I keep saying I was told two years ago by someone who knows/knew the inside of the club well it runs very deep and is not just the manager and squad. The hatred shown here for Jones is totally out of order. He did not deliberately do a bad job to hurt the club. He was obviously out of his depth but the club understandably have not been totally honest with any of the managers they have appointed since Hughes. The man wanted to do well so much that he made himself ill. His comments were delusional but I suspect that was the way he tried to defend himself and to convince himself more than anyone else. Stories coming out of the dressing room suggest a man of his age or managerial and playing experience was never going to succeed. He was not the only one-neither had Rowett with a much better cv or Hughes and Lambert for that matter. I for one was happy to try something different when Jones arrived. We were in a worse place when he left and many of us now say in hindsight we should have stuck with Rowett. I have my doubts about that because although less obvious, I think his mental health too was beginning to suffer. Even the unflappable O'Neill looked stressed and let his mask slip over the last few weeks and has on occasions looked ill. Until the club is totally overhauled this will be a repeating story and I hope O'Neill has the strength of character to do that. I do not blame the Coates family either who have put in a lot of money to a club they love and genuinely want to do the best they can but have no more experience than any other fan. Every manager has talked about the backing both financial and moral that they give. They employ people to run the club for them. They provide the money and outline the way they want to go but expect others to do the job. In some ways I think their love of the club and the fact they are very patient people gets in the way and there needs to be more accountability. Getting back to the main point I am glad to see Jones get back to doing a very good job at a smaller more modest club. He even seems to have learned from his Stoke experience - there was no chest thumping as far as I could see yesterday and he seemed a much more humble man in his interview. Most of all he looked like the bright eyed young manager we appointed who aged twenty years in his short spell at Stoke. Your a better and more gracious man than I. I just feel bitterness towards him because of the mess he left us in. When I arrived I have to say I was taken in by the passion and bull but as time went by he really began to grate. Always an excuse. That said those who employed him need to take some responsibility for hiring him in the first place. I still think one of the biggest issues at the club was that when Sir Peter left he handed over the reins to 2 individuals who think they know 10 times more about footy than they do. We still need a proper football man to oversee things at the top. A proper chief exec.
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Post by pottersrule on Jul 19, 2020 9:05:37 GMT
I’m still convinced Mick Harford is part of the reason Jones failed here Think your right there mate,quite what he saw in Paul Hart I don't know.Hart was a dour,underwhelming man that seemed to do fuck all around the place.
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Post by zerps on Jul 19, 2020 9:12:06 GMT
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jul 19, 2020 9:14:35 GMT
I didn't think it was that obvious myself.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 19, 2020 9:53:42 GMT
He wasn't the man for the problems at Stoke, too young and inexperienced. That was not his fault, it's what he inherited and even O'Neil has said he anticipated a difficult job but underestimated how difficult. Rowett said much the same. The decline started during the Hughes reign and as I keep saying I was told two years ago by someone who knows/knew the inside of the club well it runs very deep and is not just the manager and squad Would you mind expanding on that statement please? Where and what are the issues at our club if it isn't manager or squad related? Sorry I mentioned it at the time but right back at the begimming of Rowett's tenure I got into conversation at Mickleover with a Man who was helping out with a bit of gk coaching. As a boy he'd moved up from London to join the Stoke youth set up pre academy as a gk. It didn't work out so he turned to freelance scouting. He loved the club and area so stayed and was at the time I spoke to him doing various scouting jobs for Stoke (I guess mainly for gk and youth players. He had a lot on his chest concerning Stoke and did get quite passionate about it when he found I had a season ticket. He told me the club was being torn apart by rival factions which was making it impossible for a manager. Obviously he wasn't going to tell a stranger exactly what he meant but told me to look deeper than players, managers and owners. As a scout doing work for the club I guess he would be given that work by Cartwright so would certainly be backing him. More than that I don't know and haven't seen him since but I think he was instrumental in getting Nathan Broome to Mickleover last summer.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2020 9:57:13 GMT
Would you mind expanding on that statement please? Where and what are the issues at our club if it isn't manager or squad related? Sorry I mentioned it at the time but right back at the begimming of Rowett's tenure I got into conversation at Mickleover with a Man who was helping out with a bit of gk coaching. As a boy he'd moved up from London to join the Stoke youth set up pre academy as a gk. It didn't work out so he turned to freelance scouting. He loved the club and area so stayed and was at the time I spoke to him doing various scouting jobs for Stoke (I guess mainly for gk and youth players. He had a lot on his chest concerning Stoke and did get quite passionate about it when he found I had a season ticket. He told me the club was being torn apart by rival factions which was making it impossible for a manager. Obviously he wasn't going to tell a stranger exactly what he meant but told me to look deeper than players, managers and owners. As a scout doing work for the club I guess he would be given that work by Cartwright so would certainly be backing him. More than that I don't know and haven't seen him since but I think he was instrumental in getting Nathan Broome to Mickleover last summer. Thanks for that although I'm now even more confused. Rival factions? Look deeper than the manager, players and owners? There's nowhere else to look is there?
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Post by supersimonstainrod on Jul 19, 2020 10:05:11 GMT
Sorry I mentioned it at the time but right back at the begimming of Rowett's tenure I got into conversation at Mickleover with a Man who was helping out with a bit of gk coaching. As a boy he'd moved up from London to join the Stoke youth set up pre academy as a gk. It didn't work out so he turned to freelance scouting. He loved the club and area so stayed and was at the time I spoke to him doing various scouting jobs for Stoke (I guess mainly for gk and youth players. He had a lot on his chest concerning Stoke and did get quite passionate about it when he found I had a season ticket. He told me the club was being torn apart by rival factions which was making it impossible for a manager. Obviously he wasn't going to tell a stranger exactly what he meant but told me to look deeper than players, managers and owners. As a scout doing work for the club I guess he would be given that work by Cartwright so would certainly be backing him. More than that I don't know and haven't seen him since but I think he was instrumental in getting Nathan Broome to Mickleover last summer. Thanks for that although I'm now even more confused. Rival factions? Look deeper than the manager, players and owners? There's nowhere else to look is there? The rift between the car parking attendants and the staff in charge of the stationary cupboard is poisoning the club from within.....😉
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 19, 2020 10:07:12 GMT
Sorry I mentioned it at the time but right back at the begimming of Rowett's tenure I got into conversation at Mickleover with a Man who was helping out with a bit of gk coaching. As a boy he'd moved up from London to join the Stoke youth set up pre academy as a gk. It didn't work out so he turned to freelance scouting. He loved the club and area so stayed and was at the time I spoke to him doing various scouting jobs for Stoke (I guess mainly for gk and youth players. He had a lot on his chest concerning Stoke and did get quite passionate about it when he found I had a season ticket. He told me the club was being torn apart by rival factions which was making it impossible for a manager. Obviously he wasn't going to tell a stranger exactly what he meant but told me to look deeper than players, managers and owners. As a scout doing work for the club I guess he would be given that work by Cartwright so would certainly be backing him. More than that I don't know and haven't seen him since but I think he was instrumental in getting Nathan Broome to Mickleover last summer. Thanks for that although I'm now even more confused. Rival factions? Look deeper than the manager, players and owners? There's nowhere else to look is there? Exactly. I suspect one side was Cartwright though he didn't say but I can't work out who else it would be. The common factor in all this time is Scholes but I can't imagine he was against Cartwright so who else?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2020 10:09:08 GMT
Thanks for that although I'm now even more confused. Rival factions? Look deeper than the manager, players and owners? There's nowhere else to look is there? Exactly. I suspect one side was Cartwright though he didn't say but I can't work out who else it would be. The common factor in all this time is Scholes but I can't imagine he was against Cartwright so who else? Chief Scout, Cruickshank - a Mark Hughes man? If so, both are now gone so it's off to the Premier League we go...
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Jul 19, 2020 11:34:20 GMT
I’m still convinced Mick Harford is part of the reason Jones failed here Think your right there mate,quite what he saw in Paul Hart I don't know.Hart was a dour,underwhelming man that seemed to do fuck all around the place. He’s actually with him again at Luton which surprised me
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Post by David Brent on Jul 19, 2020 11:56:53 GMT
Towards the end of this, he talks about how he used to be too emotional in his early career but now he’s thinking clearly and making those big decisions. What a fucking whopper. The new Steve Cotterill. All about himself. All about him. Never taking the blame himself
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Jul 19, 2020 12:23:50 GMT
Towards the end of this, he talks about how he used to be too emotional in his early career but now he’s thinking clearly and making those big decisions. What a fucking whopper. The new Steve Cotterill. All about himself. All about him. Never taking the blame himself Watched that expecting him to be all about him, but it wasn’t thought it was reasonable in the circumstances
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 19, 2020 12:53:42 GMT
Exactly. I suspect one side was Cartwright though he didn't say but I can't work out who else it would be. The common factor in all this time is Scholes but I can't imagine he was against Cartwright so who else? Chief Scout, Cruickshank - a Mark Hughes man? If so, both are now gone so it's off to the Premier League we go... That would make a lot of sense as another thing he said to me was that they could never agree on transfer targets.
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Post by pottersrule on Jul 19, 2020 12:59:50 GMT
Think your right there mate,quite what he saw in Paul Hart I don't know.Hart was a dour,underwhelming man that seemed to do fuck all around the place. He’s actually with him again at Luton which surprised me I can remember when he did a pre match interview as Jones was unavailable,and it was just insipid and uninspiring cross.You have to ask what the fuck does he bring to the table.
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Post by rambo61 on Jul 19, 2020 15:10:36 GMT
Good luck to him I say, he really looked ill when he left here and obviously tried his very best, and I feel our problems have run much deeper than any manager these last few years. Fuck him and the donkey he rode in on. Was a brilliant night...and the wanker had to walk through us at half time !!!!🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Post by Davef on Jul 19, 2020 15:23:54 GMT
Impossible to hate Nath. I just don’t think he had the respect of the players. Too young to earn the respect of a bunch of veterans? Probably. He's only three years younger than O'Neil. Waddington, Durban, Macari and Pulis were all younger than Jones when they took the Stoke job.
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Post by xchpotter on Jul 19, 2020 15:29:54 GMT
Towards the end of this, he talks about how he used to be too emotional in his early career but now he’s thinking clearly and making those big decisions. What a fucking whopper. The new Steve Cotterill. All about himself. All about him. Never taking the blame himself I know he’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but could you imagine how much more we would be hated by other fans if he was still here and we were by some miracle in the Premier League with the wider media exposure it gives.
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 19, 2020 15:30:58 GMT
Sorry I mentioned it at the time but right back at the begimming of Rowett's tenure I got into conversation at Mickleover with a Man who was helping out with a bit of gk coaching. As a boy he'd moved up from London to join the Stoke youth set up pre academy as a gk. It didn't work out so he turned to freelance scouting. He loved the club and area so stayed and was at the time I spoke to him doing various scouting jobs for Stoke (I guess mainly for gk and youth players. He had a lot on his chest concerning Stoke and did get quite passionate about it when he found I had a season ticket. He told me the club was being torn apart by rival factions which was making it impossible for a manager. Obviously he wasn't going to tell a stranger exactly what he meant but told me to look deeper than players, managers and owners. As a scout doing work for the club I guess he would be given that work by Cartwright so would certainly be backing him. More than that I don't know and haven't seen him since but I think he was instrumental in getting Nathan Broome to Mickleover last summer. Thanks for that although I'm now even more confused. Rival factions? Look deeper than the manager, players and owners? There's nowhere else to look is there? The kit man?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2020 17:11:16 GMT
Think your right there mate,quite what he saw in Paul Hart I don't know.Hart was a dour,underwhelming man that seemed to do fuck all around the place. He’s actually with him again at Luton which surprised me He's a bit of a father figure for Jones, and he's also far more levelheaded than Jones whose impulsive manner frequently made bad choices as we know.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 19, 2020 23:09:47 GMT
He's only three years younger than O'Neil. Waddington, Durban, Macari and Pulis were all younger than Jones when they took the Stoke job. I think the difference is where he started from. No playing career to hold up like Lampard and Gerrard, no real success in management apart from with a small club and managing players who thought they were Premiership quality are not going to respect you especially when your tactics don't work. I don't even necessarily think it would have been conscious disrespect just a feeling of he's done nothing to prove he's good enough for this club. I can't remember the start of the Waddington years or what players were at the club but anyway it was a totally different era when respect for figures of authority was a given, not something which had to be earned. Although only 3 years older O'Neill has the aura of a far more mature person - done that, seen that, nothing is surprising or excites me and I have every confidence in what I am doing, so starts with more respect than Jones who just appeared to be of similar age to the players and on a great adventure. Lacking maturity is probably a better description than being too young. Doesn't make him a bad manager or evil person though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2020 0:59:23 GMT
Lambert was the oddest or appointments. He was perfect for us for the Championship. He is not a premier league standard manager.
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Post by santy on Jul 20, 2020 1:30:36 GMT
The vast majority of managers can ride a positive wave pretty well, even a lot of pretty good/well regarded managers can put together a few of these runs and may go a good number of years on the back of them. However, there are ultimately few managers who can come in and resolve a negative situation we found ourselves in. There are managers that specialise in that as well, and they too have their weaknesses.
Jones was just the wrong man for the time, we'll never know if he was potentially the right man for the job in different circumstances but he probably would've fared better at the time we hired Lambert than the time we actually came to hire him.
The next few years will shape what kind of manager he ultimately is, but look at someone like Pardew, you could probably give him a team that's on a positive spin and got a good feeling about the club the job and he'd have a good 2-4 years there. However, when the blip comes and heads drop, when players begin to get frustrated or are just contributing less he's one of the worst managers around. Pulis was the opposite it almost felt at times, he was a manager who thrived more on the odds and circumstances against him and when it reached a point with us, with WBA and Boro that he had no real reason to be struggling he performed much worse.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Jul 20, 2020 6:26:57 GMT
Waddington, Durban, Macari and Pulis were all younger than Jones when they took the Stoke job. I think the difference is where he started from. No playing career to hold up like Lampard and Gerrard, no real success in management apart from with a small club and managing players who thought they were Premiership quality are not going to respect you especially when your tactics don't work. I don't even necessarily think it would have been conscious disrespect just a feeling of he's done nothing to prove he's good enough for this club. I can't remember the start of the Waddington years or what players were at the club but anyway it was a totally different era when respect for figures of authority was a given, not something which had to be earned. Although only 3 years older O'Neill has the aura of a far more mature person - done that, seen that, nothing is surprising or excites me and I have every confidence in what I am doing, so starts with more respect than Jones who just appeared to be of similar age to the players and on a great adventure. Lacking maturity is probably a better description than being too young. Doesn't make him a bad manager or evil person though. If he lacks maturity at 47 then he's in the wrong job! You painted him out to be somebody starting out in management, maybe their early 30s, he's clearly not. Again I'll argue his playing and coaching career mirrors Pulis but only one of them was capable of demanding the respect required despite their apparent hamstring of a lower level playing career. He's as culpable for the situation he created as anybody else, and given that O'Neill rescued us from the shambles that Jones created, clearly out of his depth.
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Post by robwahlmann on Jul 20, 2020 8:20:55 GMT
I really disliked the way Jones behaved after games, the chest beating and so on, I really felt it was all about Jones the few times it went well and the players' fault every time it went the other way. I really don't understand why a lot of people thought so well about him!?
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Post by pyrus on Jul 20, 2020 8:30:14 GMT
There’s a lot of wisdom after the event here. I was okay with both Rowett’s and Jones’ appointments. I seem to think most of us were cautiously hopeful and we got behind them - You see the thinking behind the appointment and hope it works. When it doesn’t work, you begin to look for someone to blame, but not many could honestly say that, at the time the appointments were made, we thought they were bad decisions by the board.
The common problem to which all managers, post-Hughes, seem to allude Is inheriting players who would only come here if we offered them big and long contracts. When manager’s change, these players become unneeded/unwanted and ultimately they do not want to be here. Why is it that players like Afobe and Hogan who were thought of as poor at Stoke, become brilliant when they go somewhere else. And there are a lot of these players and we cannot shift them all. One of my neighbours is Millwall’s FD. He told me that they wanted to take Lee Gregory off us, but we are paying him something like £20k more per week than Millwall could afford (I cannot recall the exact amount, but it is something ludicrous). That is just one example of a broader issue. The players are not going to willingly give up that level of wage and the manager cannot ship all of them out on loan. So we are stuck with The wrong players, with bad attitudes and low morale. And each new manager cannot just ‘fuck-em off’ - which is generally the advice the club gets from here. That is what Jones could not deal with. He may not be the best manager, but his performance at Stoke was alarmingly poor by his own record.
But is that really the board being incompetent. The board is clearly backing the manager with large transfer funds. Maybe our negotiators are not sharp enough, but generally the board is spending - which is the only real thing that they can do. But when you churn through too many managers too quickly, it is impossible to off-load the last manager’s players. Hughes was now four managers ago, but we still have players on the books that Hughes bought (Wimmer, Entebo, N’daiye). In the meantime, we are so close to fucking up under FFP because of this and the board have to deal with that. And every time we fire a manager that problem gets worse.
I think the board have made some questionable judgements, but I think it is more complex that we as fans appreciate.
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Post by scfc75 on Jul 20, 2020 8:32:22 GMT
I really disliked the way Jones behaved after games, the chest beating and so on, I really felt it was all about Jones the few times it went well and the players' fault every time it went the other way. I really don't understand why a lot of people thought so well about him!? I think we (we’ll me at least!) wanted to like him and wanted to succeed.... we’d had a crap few years and this young, up and coming manager turned up and was talking a great game. It was hard not to be positive about him... at first. I even gave him the benefit of the doubt in that first season because of what he inherited, wait til he has his own players etc.... turns out he just didn’t have the tactical nous, or personality to manage big egos. What’s obvious is, we made the decision right on the wire... a couple of games later and MON wouldn’t have had enough runway to save us.
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