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Post by FullerMagic on Jul 10, 2020 7:50:53 GMT
Are we actually sure attitude is the problem with the bulk of them - and not the fact that they're just not very good when compared to the better teams in the league?
We've shown we can wipe the floor with the dross, but can get destroyed against the best. We're 10th in the league in the last 27 games, and that seems a fair return on our talent levels, especially considering the state MON picked them up in when he came in.
The teams that have tended to make us look stupid (Leeds, Wigan) are the absolute form teams.
Aren't Wigan top of the league this calendar year by quite a lot, and you could see it against us. Given their lack of spending power, Cook is doing a spectacular job there to create that type of possession team on that budget. And Bielsa has created a Man City-type machine without breaking the bank through sheer training ground coaching ability
It's these 2 performances that have led to the outrage. The Boro defeat was a bit of a freak result for all that we were unimpressive.
Smith got plaudits about his character from David Wagner and was captain for a time there.
Successive managers of all types have had faith in BMI when he was an obvious target to move on if there were attitude problems.
Batth is whole-hearted - but limited.
Chester - seems to have been considered a model pro throughout his career. Sadly, time has caught up with him and he's not just 'on the turn', but now actively stinking the place out.
Cousins puts it all in, but is a League 1 player.
Clucas? For all his shushing of fans, is there a lack of effort there?
Powell? His work-rate has surprised me. And again yesterday, I didn't think there was a lack of effort.
Vokes? Hard to evaluate his performance yesterday. It was a thankless task, but at no point did I think 'he's not putting it in'.
So who are the wasters?
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Post by neddy on Jul 10, 2020 7:57:20 GMT
They are all very limited as you outline but nobody apart from Allen gets a grip of a game they all seem to look to others to take responsibility as I see it. So as a collective I think that’s why they fail plus all brought in by different managers can’t help.
I think he should stick with 4231 for Sunday with Powell the link and hope we are just better than them on the day? I have said in another thread I will not discuss next season until we know what league we are in and I think MON has the same dilemma as he needs to keep players onside until the season is over then I think we will see what he really thinks by actions!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 10, 2020 8:01:04 GMT
I think tactics is still the main issue and has been for the last 4 years.
The players have changed on the whole, the managers have changed, what hasn't? The tactics, the insistence on a fucking 433.
There's a definite lack of quality in central midfield too. The only 2 that are Championship standard footballers are Allen and Clucas. But we've been this bad with Allen in the side for years so nothing has changed in that regard. The thing that has changed is that he's moved Clucas from that midfield in the first few games and had 2 league one players patrolling the midfield. Why would you do that?
The issues with the players if it isn't quality, it's the way they play.
The only clever players we have are Powell and Verlinden. The rest are thick.
And there's no real pace.
It's a tale of shite recruitment and awful management for me.
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Post by franklin66 on Jul 10, 2020 8:02:10 GMT
All of them.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 10, 2020 8:03:27 GMT
They are all very limited as you outline but nobody apart from Allen gets a grip of a game they all seem to look to others to take responsibility as I see it. So as a collective I think that’s why they fail plus all brought in by different managers can’t help. I think he should stick with 4231 for Sunday with Powell the link and hope we are just better than them on the day? I have said in another thread I will not discuss next season until we know what league we are in and I think MON has the same dilemma as he needs to keep players onside until the season is over then I think we will see what he really thinks by actions! But we have been wank for 4 years with Allen in the side. We have played like last night 10/20/30 times with Allen in the side. It doesn't stack up as an arguemnt. We haven't had a midfield since Allen signed! |
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Post by leicspotter on Jul 10, 2020 8:04:01 GMT
For me it's not perhaps the 'attitude' on the pitch, but what must have been going on during lock down.
The team that came back have looked off the pace, slow, clumsy and maybe even over weight. They also don't seem to be "switched on" mentally.
I would exclude Vokes, who seems fitter now that he has ever been at Stoke, and Powell who is always thinking faster than any of his team mates, but the rest look lost.
Pre lockdown Campbell was beginning to look sharp, and able to last 90 minutes, now he is back to being a 60 minute man...such a shame as he is still our best finisher.
Clucas is a shadow of the player he was in February
BMI, Chester and Baath are all finished at this level. Collins again doesn't look fit and is blowing through his arse after 30 mins. Jack seems to switch off too.
Cousins is like a poor version of his namesake, skating on the ice...but falling over all the time. It's sad watching him try to chase opposition players, like a puppy being teased.
McClean is fit, but not functioning. Thompson isn't a CM, and probably not good enough to play Left Wing at this level. Ince is...well, Ince is Ince and not in a good way
Sorenson should have kicked on 2 or 3 years ago...clearly hasn't
Smith has been ok, no more than that, and his howler last night really changed the game
Sadly Ryan's days seem numbered and all the injuries have caught up with him.
Gregory and Diouf are just picking up the wages.
Big question: where is Oakley Booth, is he injured?
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Post by robrigo on Jul 10, 2020 8:05:35 GMT
It’s a good question. I’m not sure they are wasters. I think there’s a massive resilience problem, in the fact there is zero evidence of it. Go a goal down and you generally know the outcome.
It’s so bloody frustrating, as I believe we are better than we are showing. However the table doesn’t lie, but putting a finger on the exact problem is difficult.
The manager has a hell of a task to rebuild this club regardless of the division we find ourselves in next season.
Resilience, confidence, lack of ability, lack of balance, the culture, all needs to improve and rapidly.
I was concerned and still am about the manager saying it was a bonus game and Campbell saying we should relish these type of games. It seems the little old Stoke mantra is rearing it’s head when not so long ago we were going toe to toe with the big boys.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 10, 2020 8:10:25 GMT
For me it's not perhaps the 'attitude' on the pitch, but what must have been going on during lock down. The team that came back have looked off the pace, slow, clumsy and maybe even over weight. They also don't seem to be "switched on" mentally. I would exclude Vokes, who seems fitter now that he has ever been at Stoke, and Powell who is always thinking faster than any of his team mates, but the rest look lost. Pre lockdown Campbell was beginning to look sharp, and able to last 90 minutes, now he is back to being a 60 minute man...such a shame as he is still our best finisher. Clucas is a shadow of the player he was in February BMI, Chester and Baath are all finished at this level. Collins again doesn't look fit and is blowing through his arse after 30 mins. Jack seems to switch off too. Cousins is like a poor version of his namesake, skating on the ice...but falling over all the time. It's sad watching him try to chase opposition players, like a puppy being teased. McClean is fit, but not functioning. Thompson isn't a CM, and probably not good enough to play Left Wing at this level. Ince is...well, Ince is Ince and not in a good way Sorenson should have kicked on 2 or 3 years ago...clearly hasn't Smith has been ok, no more than that, and his howler last night really changed the game Sadly Ryan's days seem numbered and all the injuries have caught up with him. Gregory and Diouf are just picking up the wages. Big question: where is Oakley Booth, is he injured? How should Sorensen have "kicked on" in 3 years? He was playing under 23 football then and still is now. How are you meant to kick on when you're still playing the same level of football regularly? His story should be one used by the club on how not to develop a player. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 8:10:57 GMT
Edwards is you believe the manager.......
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Post by jzime on Jul 10, 2020 8:14:01 GMT
Are we actually sure attitude is the problem with the bulk of them - and not the fact that they're just not very good when compared to the better teams in the league? We've shown we can wipe the floor with the dross, but can get destroyed against the best. We're 10th in the league in the last 27 games, and that seems a fair return on our talent levels, especially considering the state MON picked them up in when he came in. The teams that have tended to make us look stupid (Leeds, Wigan) are the absolute form teams. Aren't Wigan top of the league this calendar year by quite a lot, and you could see it against us. Given their lack of spending power, Cook is doing a spectacular job there to create that type of possession team on that budget. And Bielsa has created a Man City-type machine without breaking the bank through sheer training ground coaching ability It's these 2 performances that have led to the outrage. The Boro defeat was a bit of a freak result for all that we were unimpressive. Smith got plaudits about his character from David Wagner and was captain for a time there. Successive managers of all types have had faith in BMI when he was an obvious target to move on if there were attitude problems. Batth is whole-hearted - but limited. Chester - seems to have been considered a model pro throughout his career. Sadly, time has caught up with him and he's not just 'on the turn', but now actively stinking the place out. Cousins puts it all in, but is a League 1 player. Clucas? For all his shushing of fans, is there a lack of effort there? Powell? His work-rate has surprised me. And again yesterday, I didn't think there was a lack of effort. Vokes? Hard to evaluate his performance yesterday. It was a thankless task, but at no point did I think 'he's not putting it in'. So who are the wasters? You raise an interesting point. My hypothesis, as somebody who obviously doesn't have a clue what the situation is a Stoke behind the scenes, is that it is a collective issue rather than us having some bad individuals. The lack of confidence in the squad and shrinking after going a goal behind has been with us for years now, and the squad is fundamentally different to the one we had in our last two seasons in the PL. So it's hard to put a finger on it, other than it being an issue throughout the whole club. Secondly, our squad is completely unbalanced not just in terms of the positions (being overloaded in midfield, lacking in left-backs, having no pace etc.), but also in the profile of player we have. We have far too many ageing pros who have spent the majority of their careers at a high level and, to be blunt, know this will be their last big contract and they won't every play for a bigger club than Stoke again. I don't think you have to magically become unprofessional overnight to simply lose some of the motivation and hunger that you had when you were younger. Batth, Clucas, Smith and Vokes are all under contract until 2022, by which point they will be in their 30s. Gregory is already 31 and is still under contract for a year. I'm not saying that means they don't care about the club or don't have a sense of professional pride, but I really do wonder if it is difficult to replicate in them the ambition of somebody in their early 20s who has the hunger to go out and prove themselves. Basically what I am trying to say is that I really believe that we need more energetic, youthful, players aspire to play in the Premier League one day, and significantly fewer men in their late 20s/early 30s who have already played at a decent level and (consciously or not), see Stoke City as one final payday. |
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Post by leicspotter on Jul 10, 2020 8:17:12 GMT
For me it's not perhaps the 'attitude' on the pitch, but what must have been going on during lock down. The team that came back have looked off the pace, slow, clumsy and maybe even over weight. They also don't seem to be "switched on" mentally. I would exclude Vokes, who seems fitter now that he has ever been at Stoke, and Powell who is always thinking faster than any of his team mates, but the rest look lost. Pre lockdown Campbell was beginning to look sharp, and able to last 90 minutes, now he is back to being a 60 minute man...such a shame as he is still our best finisher. Clucas is a shadow of the player he was in February BMI, Chester and Baath are all finished at this level. Collins again doesn't look fit and is blowing through his arse after 30 mins. Jack seems to switch off too. Cousins is like a poor version of his namesake, skating on the ice...but falling over all the time. It's sad watching him try to chase opposition players, like a puppy being teased. McClean is fit, but not functioning. Thompson isn't a CM, and probably not good enough to play Left Wing at this level. Ince is...well, Ince is Ince and not in a good way Sorenson should have kicked on 2 or 3 years ago...clearly hasn't Smith has been ok, no more than that, and his howler last night really changed the game Sadly Ryan's days seem numbered and all the injuries have caught up with him. Gregory and Diouf are just picking up the wages. Big question: where is Oakley Booth, is he injured? How should Sorensen have "kicked on" in 3 years? He was playing under 23 football then and still is now. How are you meant to kick on when you're still playing the same level of football regularly? His story should be one used by the club on how not to develop a player. He will be 21 this year, made his debut 2 years ago...has he shown anything in that time to make anyone believe he will make it. He takes a good corner mind  Only MON has shown any sort of faith in him and that appears to stem more from his running stats that anything else. I don't disagree that the development of players at Stoke is very disappointing, but time and again we see so called prospects go elsewhere, and fail, which leads me to believe that maybe they aren't all that good to start with. Campbell seems to be the exception rather than the rule |
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Post by FullerMagic on Jul 10, 2020 8:21:34 GMT
Are we actually sure attitude is the problem with the bulk of them - and not the fact that they're just not very good when compared to the better teams in the league? We've shown we can wipe the floor with the dross, but can get destroyed against the best. We're 10th in the league in the last 27 games, and that seems a fair return on our talent levels, especially considering the state MON picked them up in when he came in. The teams that have tended to make us look stupid (Leeds, Wigan) are the absolute form teams. Aren't Wigan top of the league this calendar year by quite a lot, and you could see it against us. Given their lack of spending power, Cook is doing a spectacular job there to create that type of possession team on that budget. And Bielsa has created a Man City-type machine without breaking the bank through sheer training ground coaching ability It's these 2 performances that have led to the outrage. The Boro defeat was a bit of a freak result for all that we were unimpressive. Smith got plaudits about his character from David Wagner and was captain for a time there. Successive managers of all types have had faith in BMI when he was an obvious target to move on if there were attitude problems. Batth is whole-hearted - but limited. Chester - seems to have been considered a model pro throughout his career. Sadly, time has caught up with him and he's not just 'on the turn', but now actively stinking the place out. Cousins puts it all in, but is a League 1 player. Clucas? For all his shushing of fans, is there a lack of effort there? Powell? His work-rate has surprised me. And again yesterday, I didn't think there was a lack of effort. Vokes? Hard to evaluate his performance yesterday. It was a thankless task, but at no point did I think 'he's not putting it in'. So who are the wasters? You raise an interesting point. My hypothesis, as somebody who obviously doesn't have a clue what the situation is a Stoke behind the scenes, is that it is a collective issue rather than us having some bad individuals. The lack of confidence in the squad and shrinking after going a goal behind has been with us for years now, and the squad is fundamentally different to the one we had in our last two seasons in the PL. So it's hard to put a finger on it, other than it being an issue throughout the whole club. Secondly, our squad is completely unbalanced not just in terms of the positions (being overloaded in midfield, lacking in left-backs, having no pace etc.), but also in the profile of player we have. We have far too many ageing pros who have spent the majority of their careers at a high level and, to be blunt, know this will be their last big contract and they won't every play for a bigger club than Stoke again. I don't think you have to magically become unprofessional overnight to simply lose some of the motivation and hunger that you had when you were younger. Batth, Clucas, Smith and Vokes are all under contract until 2022, by which point they will be in their 30s. Gregory is already 31 and is still under contract for a year. I'm not saying that means they don't care about the club or don't have a sense of professional pride, but I really do wonder if it is difficult to replicate in them the ambition of somebody in their early 20s who has the hunger to go out and prove themselves. Basically what I am trying to say is that I really believe that we need more energetic, youthful, players aspire to play in the Premier League one day, and significantly fewer men in their late 20s/early 30s who have already played at a decent level and (consciously or not), see Stoke City as one final payday. Yeah. I think that's a very good post. You can get by with a certain amount of those 'coasting' senior pros, but we've got far too many. Even sub-consciously, they must lack that hunger that players on-the-up and striving to make it naturally have, when compared to the 30yo who's peaked in terms of earning power and career trajectory and is on a bit of a glide path. And that's not even mentioning the ridiculously unbalanced nature of the squad in terms of pace and width - and quality on the ball |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 10, 2020 8:23:55 GMT
How should Sorensen have "kicked on" in 3 years? He was playing under 23 football then and still is now. How are you meant to kick on when you're still playing the same level of football regularly? His story should be one used by the club on how not to develop a player. He will be 21 this year, made his debut 2 years ago...has he shown anything in that time to make anyone believe he will make it. He takes a good corner mind Only MON has shown any sort of faith in him and that appears to stem more from his running stats that anything else. I don't disagree that the development of players at Stoke is very disappointing, but time and again we see so called prospects go elsewhere, and fail, which leads me to believe that maybe they aren't all that good to start with. Campbell seems to be the exception rather than the rule The issue isn't with him. He made his debut and has then been used twice before lockdown since. So 3 games in 3 season. What the fuck is he meant to do? He hasn't had a loan for God knows what reason (not injury because he was fit in the transfer windows). You're using a series of failed managers for us as defence for not using him. Again I don't buy it. Sorensen is a very good young player that has been handled atrciously by the club. Anyone expecting him to "kick on" with the path he has been offered is just plain daft. Campbell - played regularly at 18/23 level, sent on loan at the right time and we reap the rewards. A complete opposite development wise. One of the few things Jones got right was sending him out on loan. He came back 100 times the player. It's like Collins, he's been handled appallingly. As soon as Chester signed we should have sent him out on loan to play regular football as that is what he needs. |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jul 10, 2020 8:27:17 GMT
It's hard to put a finger on it but in my forty years of watching various absolute piles of cack Stoke sides, I can scarcely remember a side where I feel like it's game over the very second we concede and they're all culpable in that, every single one of them. There's nothing about them, they are genuinely gutless and unfortunately guileless, a potent combination. They have no identifiable togetherness or fight and seem to have little respect for each other and clearly absolutely none for the fans.
I genuinely can't stand 90% of them.
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Post by robrigo on Jul 10, 2020 8:28:33 GMT
He will be 21 this year, made his debut 2 years ago...has he shown anything in that time to make anyone believe he will make it. He takes a good corner mind Only MON has shown any sort of faith in him and that appears to stem more from his running stats that anything else. I don't disagree that the development of players at Stoke is very disappointing, but time and again we see so called prospects go elsewhere, and fail, which leads me to believe that maybe they aren't all that good to start with. Campbell seems to be the exception rather than the rule The issue isn't with him. He made his debut and has then been used twice before lockdown since. So 3 games in 3 season. What the fuck is he meant to do? He hasn't had a loan for God knows what reason (not injury because he was fit in the transfer windows). You're using a series of failed managers for us as defence for not using him. Again I don't buy it. Sorensen is a very good young player that has been handled atrciously by the club. Anyone expecting him to "kick on" with the path he has been offered is just plain daft. Campbell - played regularly at 18/23 level, sent on loan at the right time and we reap the rewards. A complete opposite development wise. One of the few things Jones got right was sending him out on loan. He came back 100 times the player. It's like Collins, he's been handled appallingly. As soon as Chester signed we should have sent him out on loan to play regular football as that is what he needs. The way Sorenson and Collins have been handled/ developed is frankly appalling. |
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Post by cerebralstokie on Jul 10, 2020 8:35:53 GMT
Not having seen enough games this season to form an opinion on the merits or otherwise of individual players, nevertheless I find it refreshing to read a thread which is analytical in tone and gives a fair view of each contributor's opinion of individual players without hysterical outbursts against individuals. The club's problems are deep seated and have gone on for a few years now. I think player recruitment has been at the heart of these problems and include character as well as ability. The poor form since lockdown suggest that some have not been as professional in keeping fit as they should have been and M.O.N. has hinted at that. We should get something out of the next two games and if we cannot then we are, to quote Private Fraser "doomed ---doomed".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 8:37:51 GMT
For me it's not perhaps the 'attitude' on the pitch, but what must have been going on during lock down. The team that came back have looked off the pace, slow, clumsy and maybe even over weight. They also don't seem to be "switched on" mentally. I would exclude Vokes, who seems fitter now that he has ever been at Stoke, and Powell who is always thinking faster than any of his team mates, but the rest look lost. Pre lockdown Campbell was beginning to look sharp, and able to last 90 minutes, now he is back to being a 60 minute man...such a shame as he is still our best finisher. Clucas is a shadow of the player he was in February BMI, Chester and Baath are all finished at this level. Collins again doesn't look fit and is blowing through his arse after 30 mins. Jack seems to switch off too. Cousins is like a poor version of his namesake, skating on the ice...but falling over all the time. It's sad watching him try to chase opposition players, like a puppy being teased. McClean is fit, but not functioning. Thompson isn't a CM, and probably not good enough to play Left Wing at this level. Ince is...well, Ince is Ince and not in a good way Sorenson should have kicked on 2 or 3 years ago...clearly hasn't Smith has been ok, no more than that, and his howler last night really changed the game Sadly Ryan's days seem numbered and all the injuries have caught up with him. Gregory and Diouf are just picking up the wages. Big question: where is Oakley Booth, is he injured? How should Sorensen have "kicked on" in 3 years? He was playing under 23 football then and still is now. How are you meant to kick on when you're still playing the same level of football regularly? His story should be one used by the club on how not to develop a player. And was out for almost a whole season with a broken leg. He should have been offered more chances, even if only cameos, including by O'Neill earlier in the season, to give him more sense of what it's all about; but he didn't, and that's hurting us now, because he just doesn't have the necessary level of experience. Same with Collins, really. O'Neill stated that he didn't want to use Collins when fighting relegation; well what is O'Neill doing now? It's like Collins is still on trial with O'Neill. He plays him, then changes his mind. he doesn't play him, and then changes his mind. Not a good way to groom him. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 10, 2020 8:41:49 GMT
How should Sorensen have "kicked on" in 3 years? He was playing under 23 football then and still is now. How are you meant to kick on when you're still playing the same level of football regularly? His story should be one used by the club on how not to develop a player. And was out for almost a whole season with a broken leg. He should have been offered more chances, even if only cameos, including by O'Neill earlier in the season, to give him more sense of what it's all about; but he didn't, and that's hurting us now, because he just doesn't have the necessary level of experience. Same with Collins, really. O'Neill stated that he didn't want to use Collins when fighting relegation; well what is O'Neill doing now? It's like Collins is still on trial with O'Neill. He plays him, then changes his mind. he doesn't play him, and then changes his mind. Not a good way to groom him. He as out from about March so should have been out on loan then. But you are right he did miss a chunck of that season with it too. Sorensen dragged off vs Boro despite Thomspon stinking the place out. Collins dragged off vs Leeds despite no sub being needed and Batth being worse. It's very odd and that's why I call it cowardice. It's the easy option. It doesn't piss of an experienced player. Why you'd still think experience is important God and only knows. Experience is what has got us into this mess. |
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Post by Pugsley on Jul 10, 2020 8:43:45 GMT
The issue isn't with him. He made his debut and has then been used twice before lockdown since. So 3 games in 3 season. What the fuck is he meant to do? He hasn't had a loan for God knows what reason (not injury because he was fit in the transfer windows). You're using a series of failed managers for us as defence for not using him. Again I don't buy it. Sorensen is a very good young player that has been handled atrciously by the club. Anyone expecting him to "kick on" with the path he has been offered is just plain daft. Campbell - played regularly at 18/23 level, sent on loan at the right time and we reap the rewards. A complete opposite development wise. One of the few things Jones got right was sending him out on loan. He came back 100 times the player. It's like Collins, he's been handled appallingly. As soon as Chester signed we should have sent him out on loan to play regular football as that is what he needs. The way Sorenson and Collins have been handled/ developed is frankly appalling. This is true but it's not new is it? We've been terrible at developing players for years and years. It's not limited to youngsters either - the club and successive managers have treated good (enough) players terribly - Pieters and Diouf are prime examples. People don't like it, but every single issue at the club can be traced back to the people running the club. Disastrous decisions and non-decisions are killing us and nothing will change until a certain executive goes and football people are put in correct positions in the club. For the money invested by the Coates family, to be on brink of ANOTHER return to the third tier is nothing short of a disgrace. I'm not calling for Coates to go (although I've never liked him) but they really need to wake the fuck up. |
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Post by heworksardtho on Jul 10, 2020 8:44:15 GMT
Take your pick they were all wank last night
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Post by robrigo on Jul 10, 2020 8:50:25 GMT
The way Sorenson and Collins have been handled/ developed is frankly appalling. This is true but it's not new is it? We've been terrible at developing players for years and years. It's not limited to youngsters either - the club and successive managers have treated good (enough) players terribly - Pieters and Diouf are prime examples. People don't like it, but every single issue at the club can be traced back to the people running the club. Disastrous decisions and non-decisions are killing us and nothing will change until a certain executive goes and football people are put in correct positions in the club. For the money invested by the Coates family, to be on brink of ANOTHER return to the third tier is nothing short of a disgrace. I'm not calling for Coates to go (although I've never liked him) but they really need to wake the fuck up. Can’t argue with a word of that. It all leads back to the general running of the club. To be on the brink of another stint in the third tier is stomach churning. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Jul 10, 2020 8:53:17 GMT
It's hard to put a finger on it but in my forty years of watching various absolute piles of cack Stoke sides, I can scarcely remember a side where I feel like it's game over the very second we concede and they're all culpable in that, every single one of them. There's nothing about them, they are genuinely gutless and unfortunately guileless, a potent combination. They have no identifiable togetherness or fight and seem to have little respect for each other and clearly absolutely none for the fans. I genuinely can't stand 90% of them. I can put up with players being shit christ I've seen plenty But nearly all of those players showed fight determination and a semblance of pride This current bunch are shit scared of there own shadows There is zero pride Zero fight Its like there numb detached unaware of there surroundings They are either cynically depressed or there on a massive piss take And butlands attempt at that penalty is beyond parody |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jul 10, 2020 8:53:45 GMT
It's hard to put a finger on it but in my forty years of watching various absolute piles of cack Stoke sides, I can scarcely remember a side where I feel like it's game over the very second we concede and they're all culpable in that, every single one of them. There's nothing about them, they are genuinely gutless and unfortunately guileless, a potent combination. They have no identifiable togetherness or fight and seem to have little respect for each other and clearly absolutely none for the fans. I genuinely can't stand 90% of them. Which 10% can you stand. Seems a big number that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 8:56:28 GMT
Just a guess here, and I may well be wrong.
We signed a lot of top end championship players on good money, excellent money infact to the level they probably have never earned before and will probably never earn again. They can all see that things are wrong, going wrong and are not getting any better. In any other club they'd probably speak up and speak out either amongst themsleves, in the press, to the top brass or wherever but something is stopping them from doing it here, what is it?
Could it be an inbuilt fear that if they rock the boat, for the greater good, that they will be marginalised and sold, removing them from their lucrative contracts and into a contract that is worth a fraction of what they are on now?
Could it be because of that they are all sitting in some kind of cosy and comfortable world where one defeat merges into the next, one bad performance follows another and they are happy to bob along, picking up their money happy that someone else can be marginalised? someone else can step up and speak out?
I wonder how close my thoughts are to the truth?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 9:00:45 GMT
And was out for almost a whole season with a broken leg. He should have been offered more chances, even if only cameos, including by O'Neill earlier in the season, to give him more sense of what it's all about; but he didn't, and that's hurting us now, because he just doesn't have the necessary level of experience. Same with Collins, really. O'Neill stated that he didn't want to use Collins when fighting relegation; well what is O'Neill doing now? It's like Collins is still on trial with O'Neill. He plays him, then changes his mind. he doesn't play him, and then changes his mind. Not a good way to groom him. He as out from about March so should have been out on loan then. But you are right he did miss a chunck of that season with it too. Sorensen dragged off vs Boro despite Thomspon stinking the place out. Collins dragged off vs Leeds despite no sub being needed and Batth being worse. It's very odd and that's why I call it cowardice. It's the easy option. It doesn't piss of an experienced player. Why you'd still think experience is important God and only knows. Experience is what has got us into this mess. I could agree with that. But lack of experience is frequently given by critics and manager alike as the reason why Sorensen and Collins don't get picked. I'm almost at a point where I think we should play Sankoh. No one knows about him, and he knows eactly where the goal posts are. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 10, 2020 9:07:27 GMT
He as out from about March so should have been out on loan then. But you are right he did miss a chunck of that season with it too. Sorensen dragged off vs Boro despite Thomspon stinking the place out. Collins dragged off vs Leeds despite no sub being needed and Batth being worse. It's very odd and that's why I call it cowardice. It's the easy option. It doesn't piss of an experienced player. Why you'd still think experience is important God and only knows. Experience is what has got us into this mess. I could agree with that. But lack of experience is frequently given by critics and manager alike as the reason why Sorensen and Collins don't get picked. I'm almost at a point where I think we should play Sankoh. No one knows about him, and he knows eactly where the goal posts are. I hate the experience argument. It just doesn't hold up. It's what has caused this mess. Old, slow, thick players. Sankoh hasn't been in Stoke since lockdown. |
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jul 10, 2020 9:50:36 GMT
You raise an interesting point. My hypothesis, as somebody who obviously doesn't have a clue what the situation is a Stoke behind the scenes, is that it is a collective issue rather than us having some bad individuals. The lack of confidence in the squad and shrinking after going a goal behind has been with us for years now, and the squad is fundamentally different to the one we had in our last two seasons in the PL. So it's hard to put a finger on it, other than it being an issue throughout the whole club. Secondly, our squad is completely unbalanced not just in terms of the positions (being overloaded in midfield, lacking in left-backs, having no pace etc.), but also in the profile of player we have. We have far too many ageing pros who have spent the majority of their careers at a high level and, to be blunt, know this will be their last big contract and they won't every play for a bigger club than Stoke again. I don't think you have to magically become unprofessional overnight to simply lose some of the motivation and hunger that you had when you were younger. Batth, Clucas, Smith and Vokes are all under contract until 2022, by which point they will be in their 30s. Gregory is already 31 and is still under contract for a year. I'm not saying that means they don't care about the club or don't have a sense of professional pride, but I really do wonder if it is difficult to replicate in them the ambition of somebody in their early 20s who has the hunger to go out and prove themselves. Basically what I am trying to say is that I really believe that we need more energetic, youthful, players aspire to play in the Premier League one day, and significantly fewer men in their late 20s/early 30s who have already played at a decent level and (consciously or not), see Stoke City as one final payday. Yeah. I think that's a very good post. You can get by with a certain amount of those 'coasting' senior pros, but we've got far too many. Even sub-consciously, they must lack that hunger that players on-the-up and striving to make it naturally have, when compared to the 30yo who's peaked in terms of earning power and career trajectory and is on a bit of a glide path. And that's not even mentioning the ridiculously unbalanced nature of the squad in terms of pace and width - and quality on the ball I think this could be a good point too. If it is a reason, it's not intentional from these older players, and the situation at the club makes things even more difficult. Like Michael Owen said a couple of years ago, he couldn't wait to retire from playing. That shouldn't be seen as a slight on Owen. He had a great career and continued to try, but mentally he wasn't there - would you want to admit to yourself that your career was coming to an end? Owen may have only realised this with hindsight. I'm sure some players "milk it" towards the end, but Stoke's first-team players don't seem those kind of characters to me. The "most unlikeable group of players we've ever had" that some fans say doesn't sit easily with me. I genuinely think our players are trying. I'll add my usual comment about the lack of confidence in the whole squad and the fear of making mistakes. I think that's what we saw of England's "golden generation" - some players didn't play their best for England because they were scared of making mistakes. The negativity around Stoke City and the regular losing for over 3 years is ingrained into most of the squad and seems to drag new signings down, rather than the new signings lifting the club. We were battling well against Leeds, but as soon as a mistake led to a goal conceded, it was like the team couldn't recover from it, even like there was no adrenalin left to run on. I don't think O'Neill would be giving any wasters regular game time. |
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Post by peterpan1 on Jul 10, 2020 14:26:42 GMT
Easier to ask who aren't wasters in the squad.
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Post by lordb on Jul 10, 2020 16:11:17 GMT
I genuinely don't think attitude, not even Ince, is a problem
lack of ability is
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Post by march4 on Jul 10, 2020 16:51:28 GMT
I’ve always thought this squad is easily good enough to walk this league with room to spare.
However, they lack fitness in terms of stamina and pace. They lack concentration which I think is down to fitness. Their morale and confidence is rock bottom and they are readily reduced to spectators rather than participators in games. They lack aggression and give up easily.
Are they bothered? Good question. This is probably the mostly expensively put together squad in the history of the Championship with record wages. The players mostly have an impressive trophy cabinet at home containing international and domestic honours. They have captained teams to promotion and been players of the season.
The solution? Go and cry in a dark corner because I don’t think there is one.
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