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Post by davejohnno1 on Jul 10, 2020 13:10:00 GMT
football is a relatively simple game. If you sign crap players, you will generally have a crap team. If you sign good ones, you'll have a good team. If you have a crap manager who signs crap players, you are almost certainly going to be even crapper than you would ordinarily be and if you have crap players inherited by a decent manager, he'll make them a little less crap than they would ordinarily be. That pretty much sums up where we are at the moment. One thing irking me a little though is that I'm wondering why a manager who got a decent tune out of this bunch of charlatans to give us a fighting chance of staying up, in the main by keeping things simple and picking his best available team in their best positions wherever possible, has suddenly turned to chopping and changing both personnel and systems since our return from lockdown? That strikes me as a little odd and whilst I may be barking up the wrong tree and we may simply have a nothing idiot manager in charge, I can't help but get the feeling that what seems like his open irritation at this group of players stems from the fact that they simply aren't in the right physical shape to deal with games coming thick and fast and as such his hand is forced somewhat in terms of chopping and changing.However you dress it up, previous managers have spent ridiculous sums of money on ridiculously bad players and that is why we find ourselves where we do. All of those have been sanctioned, seemingly, by a CEO who wouldn't loosen the purse strings to let a previous, successful yet unpopular manager, to sign certain players because they were outside of our budget. His hand wasn't forced last night was it mate?After some very strange line-up's since the return, he finally went 4231 on Saturday, every player played well in that formation, they all looked confident and happy and we blew Barnsley away. Powell playing in his natural position, in the centre, had his best game in a Stoke shirt. So why, with exactly the same players (bar one) did he feel the need to foster yet another formation on the players, with a crazy three at the back, that the centre backs clearly hadn't got a clue how to play, with Powell back on the left, against arguably the best team in the division? We were all over the shop, the players no longer looked confident in their roles and players who aren't confident with their roles, invariably end up making silly mistakes. Certainly (as you said) odd but certainly not forced. At face value you would say not. Certainly. However, the fact that Chester is incapable of playing 3 games in a week (some would argue he's incapable of playing one) forced his hand to some extent and made it impossible to select the same 11 as Saturday. Maybe he felt that Collins needed the extra comfort of being in a back 5 against a team as good as Leeds or maybe he just saw that the only teams to come away from Elland Road with anything have played 5 at the back and nicked a goal on the break having absorbed lots and lots of pressure. Maybe, had Shawcross been fit, he'd have come in for Chester and we'd have played the same system as v Barnsley? Had we played every game since the return with the same system, utilising the same players in the main because they were fit and raring to go, we'd all have perhaps been more understanding of the system change last night. Who knows what is going on behind the scenes but he's clearly unhappy with the players. Maybe he's unhappy with himself? I don't know and as I said, it is irking me a little as to why a seemingly sensible pragmatic manager has suddenly become the tinkerman after a bout of Coronavirus. It is only a feeling, perhaps borne of some degree of confidence in O'Neil, that there is more to this chopping and changing than meets the eye.
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Post by BuzzB on Jul 10, 2020 14:06:37 GMT
BuzzB, what this about players "Mocking" MON? its the first ive heard about it. Agree. Care to expand on that for us BuzzB ?
For all the world it looks like we've certainly been playing like he's lost the dressing room since the restart.Read it on here mate, I will see if I can find it.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 10, 2020 14:59:47 GMT
Just so I know, apart from contracts which sounds fine for an accountant to be dealing with, what other football matters does Scholes control, he doesn't pick the players etc so I'm curious, I have zero inside info so would be interested to know. It's true he really only deals with contracts but Christ almighty he hasn't half fucked up some contract decisions that have stifled the club in recent years. Wimmer 5years along with many other including Saido etc Allen kept on PL pay along with Bauer. He also has a say on manager appointments which have been dreadful recently. His actions in the Transfer Windows is something to be desired Isn't the 5 year thing to do with spreading the cost of certain things over a longer period? Allen has claimed he's not on PL wages but that could be bollocks, the Bauer thing was stupid, it would be interesting to know who decided he was worth any sort of new contract. Its strange he has a say on managers though, I know he has to work with them but he shouldn't really be consulted imo.
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Post by femark on Jul 10, 2020 15:09:35 GMT
It's been a succession of poor decisions really. It started with the decline of the Hughes team because of poor recruitment and lack of player discipline. From there we waited too long to sack him and then brought in the wrong replacement.
After we were relegated it was clear that we needed an overhaul of the team, management and operations. However, we again failed to recruit the right players, didn't do enough to stop the rot in the dressing room and didn't overhaul the operation/boardroom side of things.
Recruiting Jones seemed like a good move and at the end of the season there seemed a positive vibe around the place. But, the summer transfer window was abysmal and left us with a completely unbalanced squad that weren't suited to how the manager wanted to play.
We sacked Jones at the right time and brought in a manager that looks to me like the right person for the job. However, we still need to deal with the absolute shower of shite that has preceded this. I think we'll stay up this year and if we get the recruitment even marginally right in the close season then I think we'll do well next season.
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Post by str8outtahampton on Jul 10, 2020 15:38:23 GMT
And there’s your answer, 288 views and nobody knows! Tbh I knew it before it happened hence my whining for 4 years at how shambolic this club is. It's nothing new. It's everything. Successive managers trying the same thing their predecessors did, that didn't work. A board that thinks throwing money at a situation will work. A board that can't see it made mistakes. A board that has carried on like it was the best board ever. A group of players that are thick as pig shit. Signing more players that are thick as pig shit. A group of players that aren't really strong or quick. Signing more players that aren't really strong or quick. A general lack of guidance and direction from anyone in a senior role. A complete lack of understanding of any issue that this club has faced in the last 4 years and a complete lack of willingness to look and learn from it. It is everything, I agree. But when any venture (business, politics, military - whatever), goes TU, the chances are the reason is poor leadership. Football is unlikely to be any different. Where I think you are dead right is that unless the leadership is prepared to look in the mirror and accept that they are the problem - from which all the symptoms you describe flow, as sure as night follows day - the downward spiral will probably continue. I don't think our leadership has reached that point of revelation yet.
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Post by wakeypotter on Jul 10, 2020 18:22:09 GMT
The clubs insistence on UK managers.... While West Brom took on Bilic And Leeds Bielsa, two respected foreign managers, and now occupy the two top automatic promotion spots, we took on the likes of Rowett (midtable championship manager at best) and then Jones (midtable league one manager at very best), and GAVE THEM MONEY to help get promoted to the Premier League!!! 🤣 Now we've got to wait and see if MON's the man for the job.....but if rumours are right, and all his eggs are in the Scottish transfer market..... Well, we'll just have to wait and see on this one!!! Absolutely bang on they are my thoughts too. We are getting left behind because we don’t buy foreign simple as that. Manager and players
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Post by thevoid on Jul 10, 2020 18:52:28 GMT
The clubs insistence on UK managers.... While West Brom took on Bilic And Leeds Bielsa, two respected foreign managers, and now occupy the two top automatic promotion spots, we took on the likes of Rowett (midtable championship manager at best) and then Jones (midtable league one manager at very best), and GAVE THEM MONEY to help get promoted to the Premier League!!! 🤣 Now we've got to wait and see if MON's the man for the job.....but if rumours are right, and all his eggs are in the Scottish transfer market..... Well, we'll just have to wait and see on this one!!! Absolutely bang on they are my thoughts too. We are getting left behind because we don’t buy foreign simple as that. Manager and players And that's why bet365 are the global giant in their field that they are now. Denise turned it into a multi-national business with a workforce and VIP clientele from all over the world. If dad had still been in charge, they'd be in BetFred territory with his biggest market being Uncle Reg putting his Lucky 15 at Belle Vue on.
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 10, 2020 19:03:27 GMT
The clubs insistence on UK managers.... While West Brom took on Bilic And Leeds Bielsa, two respected foreign managers, and now occupy the two top automatic promotion spots, we took on the likes of Rowett (midtable championship manager at best) and then Jones (midtable league one manager at very best), and GAVE THEM MONEY to help get promoted to the Premier League!!! 🤣 Now we've got to wait and see if MON's the man for the job.....but if rumours are right, and all his eggs are in the Scottish transfer market..... Well, we'll just have to wait and see on this one!!! Absolutely bang on they are my thoughts too. We are getting left behind because we don’t buy foreign simple as that. Manager and players Sheff.Utd, Palace, Newcastle, Burnley all have successful British managers, and Bournemouth may be struggling to survive this season but they have done very well for a small club and stayed in the Prem as long as you can expect a none "big 6" club. When Palace were in deep, deep trouble they appointed Hodgson. Lots of people on this MB made derisory comments and have been proven wrong. When Rowett was on his way out I suggested we appoint Steve Bruce who had lost his job at Birmingham, but this MB had a downer on him. There are good British managers as well as foreign ones. I believe the root cause of our problem is the managers since Hughes have brought in a succession of players who lack character. Only Allen and McClean have demonstrated any desire. The errors of buying players like Imbula, Wimmer, and Berahino who not only didn't play well but have been rotten apples must have been massively demotivating to many of the dressing room. These errors show a lack of due diligence in the club to "check out" individuals character. A club needs to have a network of contacts throughout the football world to know who are the "wrong 'uns" and shouldn't be let through the door. The manager (1st team coach) cannot be expected to know and do everything when it comes to recruitment. Having said that Tony Pulis was very good as assessing players character and could spot a "wrong 'un".
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Post by wakeypotter on Jul 10, 2020 19:34:43 GMT
Absolutely bang on they are my thoughts too. We are getting left behind because we don’t buy foreign simple as that. Manager and players Sheff.Utd, Palace, Newcastle, Burnley all have successful British managers, and Bournemouth may be struggling to survive this season but they have done very well for a small club and stayed in the Prem as long as you can expect a none "big 6" club. When Palace were in deep, deep trouble they appointed Hodgson. Lots of people on this MB made derisory comments and have been proven wrong. When Rowett was on his way out I suggested we appoint Steve Bruce who had lost his job at Birmingham, but this MB had a downer on him. There are good British managers as well as foreign ones. I believe the root cause of our problem is the managers since Hughes have brought in a succession of players who lack character. Only Allen and McClean have demonstrated any desire. The errors of buying players like Imbula, Wimmer, and Berahino who not only didn't play well but have been rotten apples must have been massively demotivating to many of the dressing room. These errors show a lack of due diligence in the club to "check out" individuals character. A club needs to have a network of contacts throughout the football world to know who are the "wrong 'uns" and shouldn't be let through the door. The manager (1st team coach) cannot be expected to know and do everything when it comes to recruitment. Having said that Tony Pulis was very good as assessing players character and could spot a "wrong 'un". Totally agree with most of what you say there. The only thing is those British managers who you mentioned do buy foreign players. I would have had Bruce also proven at this level. Pulis was a great man manager I’m not saying he dint treat some poorly but I don’t think we will ever get back what we had with the team he put together. Personally I’d have had him back.
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Post by pavel on Jul 10, 2020 19:53:49 GMT
A family run club that is run like an old boys club, people throughout the club, not just Scholes, that probably wouldn't get a job elsewhere in football. Left behind in terms of modern practice, ideas, ambition and competence. All the money in the world doesn't bring success without a grasp of the modern game, we need to modernise and bring in football people who are professional, forward thinking and brave or else we will continue pissing money up the wall to little effect.
We look and indeed perform like a bunch of amateurs in all areas of the club, because that's what we are, we were promised root and branch reform, we didn't get that but what we really need is all the deadwood stripped out, unfortunately that would leave sod all left from senior management down to the players and beyond. whatever the pain it needs to happen otherwise nothing will change.
This fall from grace goes far beyond the managers we have had over the last four to five years, it is a inherent part of how the club is structured. Modernise or die.
One can't fault the owners commitment to the club, but they are probably also the biggest problem with their lack of foresight, acknowledgement of the issues and their blinkered, archaic approach to running a modern football club.
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Jul 10, 2020 23:22:54 GMT
Absolutely bang on they are my thoughts too. We are getting left behind because we don’t buy foreign simple as that. Manager and players And that's why bet365 are the global giant in their field that they are now. Denise turned it into a multi-national business with a workforce and VIP clientele from all over the world. If dad had still been in charge, they'd be in BetFred territory with his biggest market being Uncle Reg putting his Lucky 15 at Belle Vue on.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 11, 2020 10:34:55 GMT
Tbh I knew it before it happened hence my whining for 4 years at how shambolic this club is. It's nothing new. It's everything. Successive managers trying the same thing their predecessors did, that didn't work. A board that thinks throwing money at a situation will work. A board that can't see it made mistakes. A board that has carried on like it was the best board ever. A group of players that are thick as pig shit. Signing more players that are thick as pig shit. A group of players that aren't really strong or quick. Signing more players that aren't really strong or quick. A general lack of guidance and direction from anyone in a senior role. A complete lack of understanding of any issue that this club has faced in the last 4 years and a complete lack of willingness to look and learn from it. It is everything, I agree. But when any venture (business, politics, military - whatever), goes TU, the chances are the reason is poor leadership. Football is unlikely to be any different. Where I think you are dead right is that unless the leadership is prepared to look in the mirror and accept that they are the problem - from which all the symptoms you describe flow, as sure as night follows day - the downward spiral will probably continue. I don't think our leadership has reached that point of revelation yet. For sure and it’s why we needed a systematic review after the last relegation. Nothing changed. It’s very frustrating because we have known about these things for a varied amount of time. Why can’t they see it? Why don’t they want to act on it?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jul 11, 2020 11:14:40 GMT
We are a manager led football club. The key to our success is appointing a good manager.
We've seen it under the stewardship of Peter Coates forever. Lou Macari, Tony Pulis, Mark Hughes.
We've appointed a series of bad ones sadly. Perhaps they've contributed in keeping good managers who had lost their way a bit too long
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Post by iglugluk on Jul 11, 2020 11:43:44 GMT
We are a manager led football club. The key to our success is appointing a good manager. We've seen it under the stewardship of Peter Coates forever. Lou Macari, Tony Pulis, Mark Hughes. We've appointed a series of bad ones sadly. Perhaps they've contributed in keeping good managers who had lost their way a bit too long MoN interviews recently would imply he's not able to effect the changes he would like to make because he's hamstrung by a poor squad that he didn't buy. Who knows if that's the only issue either? So is hard to see how anyone can put things right in the short term. I'd say at the present time we're more of a 'previous' manager led football club. Personally I'd say Hughes, who was our last good manager, gave us some great players and some lovely football but the board kept him more than a bit too long. Things started to go stale with him about a year before he went. Whether that was Denise's self sufficiency drive or natural degradation it's hard to say.
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Post by march4 on Jul 11, 2020 12:20:02 GMT
We are a manager led football club. The key to our success is appointing a good manager. We've seen it under the stewardship of Peter Coates forever. Lou Macari, Tony Pulis, Mark Hughes. We've appointed a series of bad ones sadly. Perhaps they've contributed in keeping good managers who had lost their way a bit too long Precisely. It is up to the manager to motivate the players. If they are lackadaisical and unfit the manager has to take his share of the blame.
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Post by str8outtahampton on Jul 12, 2020 11:30:49 GMT
It is everything, I agree. But when any venture (business, politics, military - whatever), goes TU, the chances are the reason is poor leadership. Football is unlikely to be any different. Where I think you are dead right is that unless the leadership is prepared to look in the mirror and accept that they are the problem - from which all the symptoms you describe flow, as sure as night follows day - the downward spiral will probably continue. I don't think our leadership has reached that point of revelation yet. For sure and it’s why we needed a systematic review after the last relegation. Nothing changed. It’s very frustrating because we have known about these things for a varied amount of time. Why can’t they see it? Why don’t they want to act on it? On one level, I think the answer is simple. It is either because the leadership is like a person with (for example) an eating disorder. Who is in fact perfectly slim. But when they look in the mirror they see a reflection that they think is overweight. Or because the leadership sees the problem perfectly clearly, but are not forced to address it. Zero accountability in other words. I think it's the second possibility. It will never happen, but does anyone seriously think that if the fans had had 51% control over the club's recruitment and selection decisions over the last 5 years we would have endured a decline of such biblical proportions? And when I say "fans" I mean pretty much any randomly selected group that can walk upright and do vaguely joined-up writing.
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