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Post by BuzzB on Jul 9, 2020 20:15:23 GMT
This is four seasons now where we have progressively deterioated, got through Hughes Lambert Rowett Jones and now O'Neil holds the fort as of today. From a relatively comfortable and a model Premier League club to one walking a tightrope to League one. So where / who is exactly the problem. Out have gone the Arnies Shaqs etc, Etebo Badou etc, Wimmer Saido and the likes are out of the club. Jones signed 12 players was it? New faces have come and gone, all 5 managers can't seem to get a tune out of whichever squad they have at their disposal, yes players they picked and bad apples they thought they had got shut of. Posters on here blame Scholes, is it really him? Buggered if I know, thats why I am posting this, where is this cancer exactly? If a new man came in, bought 25 new players with him, getting shut of all current playing staff would it work?? Why do new players run the dressing room? Mocking MON is the latest rumour, just where do we go from here.
Answers welcome, just what and where is the problem, or who? Scholes doesn't scout does he??
Issues apparently are well known in the football circles but what the bloody hell are they??
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Post by BuzzB on Jul 10, 2020 9:24:16 GMT
And there’s your answer, 288 views and nobody knows!
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Post by stokemark on Jul 10, 2020 9:37:27 GMT
Allowing an accountant to preside over football matters is at he root of the issue
Failure to appoint a proper technical director of football who has the qualifications and experience to look at the need for consistency and continuity whoever the manager is has to be at the heart of things. For example, the decision to appoint a manager (Jones) who wanted to play an entirely different type of football from his predecessor and was allowed to spend significant sums on second rate players to play in it would not have been sanctioned by someone who actually understands football (not spreadsheets)
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 10, 2020 9:42:02 GMT
And there’s your answer, 288 views and nobody knows! Tbh I knew it before it happened hence my whining for 4 years at how shambolic this club is. It's nothing new. It's everything. Successive managers trying the same thing their predecessors did, that didn't work. A board that thinks throwing money at a situation will work. A board that can't see it made mistakes. A board that has carried on like it was the best board ever. A group of players that are thick as pig shit. Signing more players that are thick as pig shit. A group of players that aren't really strong or quick. Signing more players that aren't really strong or quick. A general lack of guidance and direction from anyone in a senior role. A complete lack of understanding of any issue that this club has faced in the last 4 years and a complete lack of willingness to look and learn from it.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Jul 10, 2020 9:42:38 GMT
Allowing an accountant to preside over football matters is at he root of the issue Failure to appoint a proper technical director of football who has the qualifications and experience to look at the need for consistency and continuity whoever the manager is has to be at the heart of things. For example, the decision to appoint a manager (Jones) who wanted to play an entirely different type of football from his predecessor and was allowed to spend significant sums on second rate players to play in it would not have been sanctioned by someone who actually understands football (not spreadsheets) 100% spot on
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Post by kronkie on Jul 10, 2020 9:43:37 GMT
BuzzB, what this about players "Mocking" MON? its the first ive heard about it.
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Post by biglad180 on Jul 10, 2020 9:48:48 GMT
all i know is the money the coates family have put in the club they deserve a lot better, wigan players are fighting for there lives and not getting payed, our lot are a fucking disgrace to the club, apart from tyrese they can all go for me
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 10, 2020 9:49:14 GMT
Allowing an accountant to preside over football matters is at he root of the issue Failure to appoint a proper technical director of football who has the qualifications and experience to look at the need for consistency and continuity whoever the manager is has to be at the heart of things. For example, the decision to appoint a manager (Jones) who wanted to play an entirely different type of football from his predecessor and was allowed to spend significant sums on second rate players to play in it would not have been sanctioned by someone who actually understands football (not spreadsheets) Just so I know, apart from contracts which sounds fine for an accountant to be dealing with, what other football matters does Scholes control, he doesn't pick the players etc so I'm curious, I have zero inside info so would be interested to know.
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 10, 2020 10:29:11 GMT
I go back to a conversation I had with someone who does (or did then) freelance scouting at Stoke. He loves the club having come up here as a schoolboy from London to join our youth system. He never made it so turned to scouting. It was when Rowett was beginning to lose the plot and he said to me look beyond the manager, players, and the owners it's behind the scenes. He wouldn't be more specific but implied the manager's job is untenable and it was heart breaking for him to see but the club was being torn apart by rival factions and the managers were being undermined.
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Post by Alvechurch Assassin on Jul 10, 2020 10:40:34 GMT
We haven't signed a leader, a CD or CM that scares the opposition and more importantly, his own players. Really needed a captain in amongst all the prima donna's.
(Just one reason, there's a million more across these very pages)
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Post by citynickscfc on Jul 10, 2020 10:42:27 GMT
I go back to a conversation I had with someone who does (or did then) freelance scouting at Stoke. He loves the club having come up here as a schoolboy from London to join our youth system. He never made it so turned to scouting. It was when Rowett was beginning to lose the plot and he said to me look beyond the manager, players, and the owners it's behind the scenes. He wouldn't be more specific but implied the manager's job is untenable and it was heart breaking for him to see but the club was being torn apart by rival factions and the managers were being undermined. I generally think it comes from peters old stuck in his ways way of doing things being too outdated, and then onto John whom is simply brainless and happy for it to be an old boys club. Tony likes to try to control things so that he doesn't/cannot get the sack (job for life) and has his fingers in literally every pie, including the managers when he can. His accounting side of things actually influences the manager with regards to which players he can bring in, but I'm sure with his arse licking of bezzie mate johnny he can go whinging right back to the 'family' of his disagreements with the manager - see Rowett. I actually think Rowett is a fairly decent manager especially for his age.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 10:43:11 GMT
We haven't signed a leader, a CD or CM that scares the opposition and more importantly, his own players. Really needed a captain in amongst all the prima donna's. (Just one reason, there's a million more across these very pages) It wasn't that long ago we had 10 Captains, most of whom are still very much a part of the squad.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 10, 2020 10:48:29 GMT
A succession of poor managerial appointments, leading to a succession of dreadful players being signed by those poor managers.
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Post by Gods on Jul 10, 2020 10:52:37 GMT
Are the good times really over for good?
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Post by tpholloway1 on Jul 10, 2020 11:00:31 GMT
A succession of poor managerial appointments, leading to a succession of dreadful players being signed by those poor managers. Spot on Paul. We've got a squad of, mainly, at best, lower championship players.(and that's being generous to some of them). I hope MON can keep us up, he's done wonders so far, and then bring in some decent players with a couple of leaders viz Macari with Vince Overson etc and Pulis with Gerry Taggart etc., to sort the dressing room out.
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Post by Alvechurch Assassin on Jul 10, 2020 11:14:03 GMT
We haven't signed a leader, a CD or CM that scares the opposition and more importantly, his own players. Really needed a captain in amongst all the prima donna's. (Just one reason, there's a million more across these very pages) It wasn't that long ago we had 10 Captains, most of whom are still very much a part of the squad. I'm thinking more of a gobshite, but with ability. There's a reason we keep getting thrashed.
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Jul 10, 2020 11:16:27 GMT
The clubs insistence on UK managers....
While West Brom took on Bilic And Leeds Bielsa, two respected foreign managers, and now occupy the two top automatic promotion spots, we took on the likes of Rowett (midtable championship manager at best) and then Jones (midtable league one manager at very best), and GAVE THEM MONEY to help get promoted to the Premier League!!! 🤣
Now we've got to wait and see if MON's the man for the job.....but if rumours are right, and all his eggs are in the Scottish transfer market.....
Well, we'll just have to wait and see on this one!!!
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Post by miggoscfc on Jul 10, 2020 11:16:53 GMT
Allowing an accountant to preside over football matters is at he root of the issue Failure to appoint a proper technical director of football who has the qualifications and experience to look at the need for consistency and continuity whoever the manager is has to be at the heart of things. For example, the decision to appoint a manager (Jones) who wanted to play an entirely different type of football from his predecessor and was allowed to spend significant sums on second rate players to play in it would not have been sanctioned by someone who actually understands football (not spreadsheets) Whilst I agree in part, for the sake of balance TS also was part of the team that got everything right in getting us promoted. Is he really solely to blame ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 11:26:53 GMT
It wasn't that long ago we had 10 Captains, most of whom are still very much a part of the squad. I'm thinking more of a gobshite, but with ability. There's a reason we keep getting thrashed. I suppose I was just wondering where all of the Captain material went. I'd always imagined that the Captain was the kind to grab games, and team-mates, by the scruff of the neck and drag them through games, if needs be. We just don't have those characters, so somewhere along the line they've disappeared into their shell. Maybe it's easier to be a Captain of a side doing well.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 10, 2020 11:35:28 GMT
To me its simple. Replace JC and TS with people who actually know what they are doing. If we had done that 4 years ago we would not be in the state we are in now.
we can argue the toss about how much of the fault lies in which areas but when the dust settles the only people you can really blame are the senior management and owners. They run and own the club, therefore their mess.
TS is so lucky at the moment that we have a pandemic on or the fans would be calling for his head from the terraces. It started happening back in January I recall but we went and scored and it shut the fans in the South stand up. I think the patience has run out now. He's got to go.
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Post by telfordstokie on Jul 10, 2020 11:41:55 GMT
Allowing an accountant to preside over football matters is at he root of the issue Failure to appoint a proper technical director of football who has the qualifications and experience to look at the need for consistency and continuity whoever the manager is has to be at the heart of things. For example, the decision to appoint a manager (Jones) who wanted to play an entirely different type of football from his predecessor and was allowed to spend significant sums on second rate players to play in it would not have been sanctioned by someone who actually understands football (not spreadsheets) 100 per cent correct. How the hell did we go from trying to appoint QSF for a multi-year project (and briefing the media his arrival was definitely happening) to bringing in Paul Lambert on a short-term deal? It was obvious for months Hughes was on his way out but there was no plan for what happened when he did. The last few years have been defined by a complete lack of long-term strategy and we are reaping the results of that now.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jul 10, 2020 11:45:00 GMT
football is a relatively simple game. If you sign crap players, you will generally have a crap team. If you sign good ones, you'll have a good team.
If you have a crap manager who signs crap players, you are almost certainly going to be even crapper than you would ordinarily be and if you have crap players inherited by a decent manager, he'll make them a little less crap than they would ordinarily be.
That pretty much sums up where we are at the moment.
One thing irking me a little though is that I'm wondering why a manager who got a decent tune out of this bunch of charlatans to give us a fighting chance of staying up, in the main by keeping things simple and picking his best available team in their best positions wherever possible, has suddenly turned to chopping and changing both personnel and systems since our return from lockdown?
That strikes me as a little odd and whilst I may be barking up the wrong tree and we may simply have a nothing idiot manager in charge, I can't help but get the feeling that what seems like his open irritation at this group of players stems from the fact that they simply aren't in the right physical shape to deal with games coming thick and fast and as such his hand is forced somewhat in terms of chopping and changing.
However you dress it up, previous managers have spent ridiculous sums of money on ridiculously bad players and that is why we find ourselves where we do. All of those have been sanctioned, seemingly, by a CEO who wouldn't loosen the purse strings to let a previous, successful yet unpopular manager, to sign certain players because they were outside of our budget.
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Post by realstokebloke on Jul 10, 2020 11:51:17 GMT
BuzzB, what this about players "Mocking" MON? its the first ive heard about it. Agree. Care to expand on that for us BuzzB ?
For all the world it looks like we've certainly been playing like he's lost the dressing room since the restart.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 10, 2020 11:51:32 GMT
Allowing an accountant to preside over football matters is at he root of the issue Failure to appoint a proper technical director of football who has the qualifications and experience to look at the need for consistency and continuity whoever the manager is has to be at the heart of things. For example, the decision to appoint a manager (Jones) who wanted to play an entirely different type of football from his predecessor and was allowed to spend significant sums on second rate players to play in it would not have been sanctioned by someone who actually understands football (not spreadsheets) 100 per cent correct. How the hell did we go from trying to appoint QSF for a multi-year project (and briefing the media his arrival was definitely happening) to bringing in Paul Lambert on a short-term deal? It was obvious for months Hughes was on his way out but there was no plan for what happened when he did. The last few years have been defined by a complete lack of long-term strategy and we are reaping the results of that now. Planning should have been in place before our relegation from the Premiership. But it seems to me that upon relegation the only plan was chuck a load of money at it and we are bound to get promoted again. It was a high risk and foolish strategy and its blown up in their faces big time. Now with FFP they really have backed themselves into a very dark corner. They need to own their fuck up and strip the senior management and get proper football people in to put a sustainable plan in place. But they wont because they wont sack JC or TS. Just give them honorary roles in the club and keep them out of the football because they are useless. There can be no doubt about that now, none at all.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jul 10, 2020 11:53:14 GMT
You can't overestimate the Scholes effect. This more than anything advertises our culture of complacency, of poor performance without consequence, of not learning lessons, of promising a major overhaul but carrying on just as you were before.
Years of terminal decline and he gets a bonus dressed up as pension nonsense for a final kick in the teeth of fans.
He wouldn't have survived in any other industry or at any other football club. Swansea and West Brom don't have the same executive structure that took them down and they're both miles ahead of us. Quite why the owners keep setting fire to their money on a failed and discredited process is anyone's guess but ultimately it's their own fault.
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Post by realstokebloke on Jul 10, 2020 12:02:14 GMT
A succession of poor managerial appointments, leading to a succession of dreadful players being signed by those poor managers. Mmm., I guess history (& whether we survive or get relegated) will ultimately decide whether MoN falls into the former category.
I thought he was exactly what we needed after car crash Jones. And, indeed he was until the restart.
I'm truly shaken by the decline since then. The players / performances haven't been a massive surprise - after all, we've seen utter rubbish from largely the same group before and any incomers have arguably made things worse.
So what has changed has been MoN's team selections / formations and tactics - by and large they have been dreadful.
Hence I'm seriously doubting that he is indeed the rock that we need to cling to while we weather the storm.
We'll get the answer soon enough but I can't say I'm optimistic.
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Post by potterpaul on Jul 10, 2020 12:04:12 GMT
Allowing an accountant to preside over football matters is at he root of the issue Failure to appoint a proper technical director of football who has the qualifications and experience to look at the need for consistency and continuity whoever the manager is has to be at the heart of things. For example, the decision to appoint a manager (Jones) who wanted to play an entirely different type of football from his predecessor and was allowed to spend significant sums on second rate players to play in it would not have been sanctioned by someone who actually understands football (not spreadsheets) Just so I know, apart from contracts which sounds fine for an accountant to be dealing with, what other football matters does Scholes control, he doesn't pick the players etc so I'm curious, I have zero inside info so would be interested to know. It's true he really only deals with contracts but Christ almighty he hasn't half fucked up some contract decisions that have stifled the club in recent years. Wimmer 5years along with many other including Saido etc Allen kept on PL pay along with Bauer. He also has a say on manager appointments which have been dreadful recently. His actions in the Transfer Windows is something to be desired
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Post by march4 on Jul 10, 2020 12:04:43 GMT
We need someone into the club who sits between the Coates family and MON.
Those currently in that role have to be held responsible.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 10, 2020 12:11:13 GMT
You can't overestimate the Scholes effect. This more than anything advertises our culture of complacency, of poor performance without consequence, of not learning lessons, of promising a major overhaul but carrying on just as you were before. Years of terminal decline and he gets a bonus dressed up as pension nonsense for a final kick in the teeth of fans. He wouldn't have survived in any other industry or at any other football club. Swansea and West Brom don't have the same executive structure that took them down and they're both miles ahead of us. Quite why the owners keep setting fire to their money on a failed and discredited process is anyone's guess but ultimately it's their own fault. Totally with you on that. And the analogy about setting fire to their money is bang on. What a waste. If they had spent a fraction of it on a decent director of football we would be in another world. Fools and their money are easily parted.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 10, 2020 13:00:32 GMT
football is a relatively simple game. If you sign crap players, you will generally have a crap team. If you sign good ones, you'll have a good team. If you have a crap manager who signs crap players, you are almost certainly going to be even crapper than you would ordinarily be and if you have crap players inherited by a decent manager, he'll make them a little less crap than they would ordinarily be. That pretty much sums up where we are at the moment. One thing irking me a little though is that I'm wondering why a manager who got a decent tune out of this bunch of charlatans to give us a fighting chance of staying up, in the main by keeping things simple and picking his best available team in their best positions wherever possible, has suddenly turned to chopping and changing both personnel and systems since our return from lockdown? That strikes me as a little odd and whilst I may be barking up the wrong tree and we may simply have a nothing idiot manager in charge, I can't help but get the feeling that what seems like his open irritation at this group of players stems from the fact that they simply aren't in the right physical shape to deal with games coming thick and fast and as such his hand is forced somewhat in terms of chopping and changing.However you dress it up, previous managers have spent ridiculous sums of money on ridiculously bad players and that is why we find ourselves where we do. All of those have been sanctioned, seemingly, by a CEO who wouldn't loosen the purse strings to let a previous, successful yet unpopular manager, to sign certain players because they were outside of our budget. His hand wasn't forced last night was it mate? After some very strange line-up's since the return, he finally went 4231 on Saturday, every player played well in that formation, they all looked confident and happy and we blew Barnsley away. Powell playing in his natural position, in the centre, had his best game in a Stoke shirt. So why, with exactly the same players (bar one) did he feel the need to foster yet another formation on the players, with a crazy three at the back, that the centre backs clearly hadn't got a clue how to play, with Powell back on the left, against arguably the best team in the division? We were all over the shop, the players no longer looked confident in their roles and players who aren't confident with their roles, invariably end up making silly mistakes. Certainly (as you said) odd but certainly not forced.
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