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Post by dutchstokie on Jun 30, 2020 9:38:42 GMT
Id sooner they spent the money on more real police willing to do a real job and not pussuy footing around the young Arseholes Just because you're bored is no need to break the law Just because you're being brought up by a single parent Is no excuse to break the law Just because you're poor is no need to break the law Just because you have been indoctrinated by faux outrage is not a excuse to break the law Stop making excuses for the poor little lambs They need a hard sharp shock and if that doesn't work remove them from society Are you saying that the decade long destruction of all of those auxiliary and support services has absolutely no effect on crime rates. None at all? Do you recognise and acknowledge that this also happened under a Labour administration?
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Post by franklin66 on Jun 30, 2020 9:39:12 GMT
I’ve watched a lot of football in my time but I’ve never considered that the commentators have a racial bias. Stuff like this undermines the "cause" because fair minded people see it for what it is nit picking shit.
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Post by Orbs on Jun 30, 2020 9:48:12 GMT
I read it as they've just analysed what the commentators said during the games. The 'pace, power and aggression' comments aren't negative on their own but they are certainly less favourable when compared with 'ingenuity, creativity and determination.' The next paragraph was interesting as it indicates to a longer term issue: Lee added: "I think it's damaging in the long term because when players leave their playing career and they go into coaching or managing, or want to be seen in a more positive light, people will have already built up this perception because for 10 or 20 years all you've heard of is that person is quick, powerful and aggressive, and you've not heard they are actually intellectual, articulate and [have] a quite different set of skills."Possibly the unconscious bias I mentioned yesterday. Players seem to be accurately described imo but it's something I'll pay more attention to. The issue with these kind of surveys is that you can always find something if you look hard enough or omit crucial information.. In relation to intelligence and work ethic, more than 60% of praise was aimed at players with a lighter skin tone.Is that on average or in total? Because if it's in total then it's normal based on the split between black and white players I'd assume. There was also certain attributes that were brought up more often for those with darker skin tones, including form.This is probably related to the British winter debate of yesterday and there's a simple, relevant and non-racist explanation for it. Without covering old ground the debate yesterday wasn't about the British winter. It was about the potential racist attitude of managers/coaches/owners/supporters towards (for example) black African players because the managers/coaches/owners/supporters might consciously or unconsciously believe that the players couldn't/wouldn't perform during the winter. It was to do with their attitude towards the players and not the weather. It was an example of potential racism within the game. You're right to pay more attention to these commentary findings. I will do too although this survey had over 2000 statements covering nearly 650 players and so we obviously won't get anywhere near that and there will always be the odd exception to the rule. I'm not sure that saying 'the problem with these surveys is' and 'there's a simple relevant and non-racist explanation for it' is right though. The findings of surveys can't just be constantly dismissed like that, especially if they keep bringing up similar issues. I think it's right that these findings are being brought out more and more as it keeps us thinking about race and whether or not our unconscious bias is creeping back in.
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Post by Orbs on Jun 30, 2020 9:50:19 GMT
I’ve watched a lot of football in my time but I’ve never considered that the commentators have a racial bias. Exactly. The survey shows that it exists though. Just because you haven't noticed it doesn't mean it's not happening.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 30, 2020 9:58:56 GMT
I’ve watched a lot of football in my time but I’ve never considered that the commentators have a racial bias. Exactly. The survey shows that it exists though. Just because you haven't noticed it doesn't mean it's not happening. At the same time though, the article claims that it may damage long term prospects because they aren’t viewed as ‘articulate’ etc due to the commentating. I’ve never considered that either. I don’t base people’s intellectual capabilities on what commentators say because that would be ridiculous.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 30, 2020 10:03:48 GMT
Are you saying that the decade long destruction of all of those auxiliary and support services has absolutely no effect on crime rates. None at all? Do you recognise and acknowledge that this also happened under a Labour administration? I doubt Momo(tonous) would recognise the last Labour administration as a Labour administration.
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Post by foster on Jun 30, 2020 10:05:44 GMT
I’ve watched a lot of football in my time but I’ve never considered that the commentators have a racial bias. Exactly. The survey shows that it exists though. Just because you haven't noticed it doesn't mean it's not happening. I think the survey needs to be much more specific to be honest. It doesn't exactly show that it exists as it's not making a comparison between two like for like black and white players. It's lumping all statements together, tallying up the totals and assuming that all players are the same, which isn't the case. What would give it more relevance, is if it picked out sets or pairs of players that are similar in ability and physical stature, and then compared how these similar type of players have been described differently over time. Salah vs Vardy for example.
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 30, 2020 10:06:53 GMT
I’ve watched a lot of football in my time but I’ve never considered that the commentators have a racial bias. Exactly. The survey shows that it exists though. Just because you haven't noticed it doesn't mean it's not happening. Agree - I think it’s good evidence of subconscious racism which does have consequences. It’s a good thing to discuss in a constructive way.
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Post by Orbs on Jun 30, 2020 10:08:17 GMT
Exactly. The survey shows that it exists though. Just because you haven't noticed it doesn't mean it's not happening. At the same time though, the article claims that it may damage long term prospects because they aren’t viewed as ‘articulate’ etc due to the commentating. I’ve never considered that either. I don’t base people’s intellectual capabilities on what commentators say because that would be ridiculous. Agreed totally. I've never considered this before either but the survey shows it potentially exists. Again, just because you don't take notice of what the commentators say doesn't mean that others don't. Is the unconscious bias again. Maybe there's lots of these things frequently chipping away but we just aren't aware of them.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 30, 2020 10:08:30 GMT
I’ve watched a lot of football in my time but I’ve never considered that the commentators have a racial bias. Exactly. The survey shows that it exists though. Just because you haven't noticed it doesn't mean it's not happening. Agreed. It's interesting isn't it, just how much of this stuff may be so ingrained as to be dismissed as 'normal'. Unless you happen to be on the receiving end, obviously. This might explain the notorious difference in treatment black and white footballers got in the Daily Mail when buying houses? I'm being generous to the Daily Mail, obviously
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 30, 2020 10:09:00 GMT
Exactly. The survey shows that it exists though. Just because you haven't noticed it doesn't mean it's not happening. Agree - I think it’s good evidence of subconscious racism which does have consequences. It’s a good thing to discuss in a constructive way. I’m not sure you could prove the ‘consequences’. Has anyone ever based a footballers intellectual capability based on what a commentator has said?
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Post by Orbs on Jun 30, 2020 10:10:23 GMT
Exactly. The survey shows that it exists though. Just because you haven't noticed it doesn't mean it's not happening. I think the survey needs to be much more specific to be honest. It doesn't exactly show that it exists as it's not making a comparison between two like for like black and white players. It's lumping all statements together, tallying up the totals and assuming that all players are the same, which isn't the case. What would give it more relevance, is if it picked out sets or pairs of players that are similar in ability and physical stature, and then compared how these similar type of players have been described differently over time. Salah vs Vardy for example. I can see an idea for a thesis emerging here... although I've heard of a Dr Foster somewhere before...
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 30, 2020 10:11:34 GMT
Agree - I think it’s good evidence of subconscious racism which does have consequences. It’s a good thing to discuss in a constructive way. I’m not sure you could prove the ‘consequences’. Has anyone ever based a footballers intellectual capability based on what a commentator has said? Where did Big Ron Atkinson get his 'impression' about black footballers from I wonder? "...he [Desailly] is what is known in some schools as a fucking lazy, thick nigger" And how much influence might this comment have had... It clearly wasn't something he just came up with apropos of nothing...
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Post by Orbs on Jun 30, 2020 10:11:40 GMT
Exactly. The survey shows that it exists though. Just because you haven't noticed it doesn't mean it's not happening. Agree - I think it’s good evidence of subconscious racism which does have consequences. It’s a good thing to discuss in a constructive way. I think that subconscious racism is a better way of describing unconscious bias. It's more specific.
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Post by roylandstoke on Jun 30, 2020 10:18:33 GMT
Cut and paste from Trump. Thanks for the input Racist Roy, but I don't follow (or like) Trump. Yet so many of your ideas and rhetoric are identical. That's the eighth time you've called me a racist on the internet. You have no grounds for this, beyond my support for the concept of "black lives matter", which you characterise as racist. You are a pathetic internet hardman enjoying the thrill of insulting someone without having to suffer the consequences. You are beneath contempt. I pity you.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 30, 2020 10:19:21 GMT
I’m not sure you could prove the ‘consequences’. Has anyone ever based a footballers intellectual capability based on what a commentator has said? Where did Big Ron Atkinson get his 'impression' about black footballers from I wonder? "...he [Desailly] is what is known in some schools as a fucking lazy, thick nigger" And how much influence might this comment have had... It clearly wasn't something he just came up with apropos of nothing... That quote is a dinosaur like Ron Atkinson, picking out the worst possible example isn’t useful because it can’t be applied generally. We’re talking about modern day commentating here and times have moved on, I’d be amazed if any commentator even had such thoughts never mind said them out loud. Put Big Ron to one side, have you ever based your opinion on a footballers intellectual ability on what today’s commentators say?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 30, 2020 10:28:07 GMT
Where did Big Ron Atkinson get his 'impression' about black footballers from I wonder? "...he [Desailly] is what is known in some schools as a fucking lazy, thick nigger" And how much influence might this comment have had... It clearly wasn't something he just came up with apropos of nothing... That quote is a dinosaur like Ron Atkinson, picking out the worst possible example isn’t useful because it can’t be applied generally. We’re talking about modern day commentating here and times have moved on, I’d be amazed if any commentator even had such thoughts never mind said them out loud. Put Big Ron to one side, have you ever based your opinion on a footballers intellectual ability on what today’s commentators say? That quote was in 2004. Atkinson was working in football until 2000. People always say times have moved on, that's not that long ago! There will be plenty of players who are now coaches or managers who will have worked under him during his 30 years in management from 1970 who will no doubt have been exposed to his thoughts about various things, including race. I think it's entirely fair to say people are influenced by what others say, regardless of who they are. You can belittle football commentators as being non-influential if you like, but I think that's naive. For the record, I don't for one second think anyone goes around quoting football commentators as the basis of their own opinions, but the subconscious 'ingestion' of their offerings over many years of listening to them may well have some impact. We all know who's got a "sweet....foot" after all and it's never a right-footed player!
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Post by foster on Jun 30, 2020 10:33:20 GMT
Thanks for the input Racist Roy, but I don't follow (or like) Trump. Yet so many of your ideas and rhetoric are identical. That's the eighth time you've called me a racist on the internet. You have no grounds for this, beyond my support for the concept of "black lives matter", which you characterise as racist. You are a pathetic internet hardman enjoying the thrill of insulting someone without having to suffer the consequences. You are beneath contempt. I pity you. Haven't you got a copy of Mein Kampf to read or something mate.
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Post by xchpotter on Jun 30, 2020 10:35:39 GMT
I’ve watched a lot of football in my time but I’ve never considered that the commentators have a racial bias. Stuff like this undermines the "cause" because fair minded people see it for what it is nit picking shit. They really don’t have a clue how much this sort of stuff will end up marginalising the majority which is never a good place to be. Can’t they see they are creating a fertile environment for far right politics to take an even firmer root?
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Post by franklin66 on Jun 30, 2020 10:40:12 GMT
I've lost track of what the issues is its gone from a murder to statues to coco pops and rice krispies to the weather beauty products then back to the future with Ron Atkinson, Ron Noades, Abraham lincoln, George Washington, Charles Dickens and now the Dixie Chicks are now just called The Chicks.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 30, 2020 10:40:53 GMT
That quote is a dinosaur like Ron Atkinson, picking out the worst possible example isn’t useful because it can’t be applied generally. We’re talking about modern day commentating here and times have moved on, I’d be amazed if any commentator even had such thoughts never mind said them out loud. Put Big Ron to one side, have you ever based your opinion on a footballers intellectual ability on what today’s commentators say? That quote was in 2004. Atkinson was working in football until 2000. People always say times have moved on, that's not that long ago! There will be plenty of players who are now coaches or managers who will have worked under him during his 30 years in management from 1970 who will no doubt have been exposed to his thoughts about various things, including race. I think it's entirely fair to say people are influenced by what others say, regardless of who they are. You can belittle football commentators as being non-influential if you like, but I think that's naive. For the record, I don't for one second think anyone goes around quoting football commentators as the basis of their own opinions, but the subconscious 'ingestion' of their offerings over many years of listening to them may well have some impact. We all know who's got a "sweet....foot" after all and it's never a right-footed player! Big Ron is a still a bad example. We don’t even properly understand unconscious bias and if/how it can be changed. A lot more research is required.
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Post by Orbs on Jun 30, 2020 11:15:41 GMT
Thanks for the input Racist Roy, but I don't follow (or like) Trump. Yet so many of your ideas and rhetoric are identical. That's the eighth time you've called me a racist on the internet. You have no grounds for this, beyond my support for the concept of "black lives matter", which you characterise as racist. You are a pathetic internet hardman enjoying the thrill of insulting someone without having to suffer the consequences. You are beneath contempt. I pity you. I'm reminded of Brain Clough who may well have said 'There's no need for this type of thing.' We are better than name calling aren't we?
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Jun 30, 2020 11:17:59 GMT
You know you live in the most tolerant & least racist country on Earth when describing Didier Drogba as a big, fast, strong & powerful bloke is peak Nazism.
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Post by Orbs on Jun 30, 2020 11:20:18 GMT
That quote was in 2004. Atkinson was working in football until 2000. People always say times have moved on, that's not that long ago! There will be plenty of players who are now coaches or managers who will have worked under him during his 30 years in management from 1970 who will no doubt have been exposed to his thoughts about various things, including race. I think it's entirely fair to say people are influenced by what others say, regardless of who they are. You can belittle football commentators as being non-influential if you like, but I think that's naive. For the record, I don't for one second think anyone goes around quoting football commentators as the basis of their own opinions, but the subconscious 'ingestion' of their offerings over many years of listening to them may well have some impact. We all know who's got a "sweet....foot" after all and it's never a right-footed player! Big Ron is a still a bad example. We don’t even properly understand unconscious bias and if/how it can be changed. A lot more research is required. It's everywhere. Just look at advertising for starters. The whole point is that it's unconscious so probably even futile to even try and look for it. It's only until someone points it out that you recognise it's happened/happening. It's like the Robbie Earle example with the girl crossing the street from him and the 'nudge' he sees so frequently when walking into shops. That really brought it home to me and that's why I think these examples should be shared more widely. It certainly isn't 'nit picking' as someone said earlier.
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Post by Orbs on Jun 30, 2020 11:21:13 GMT
You know you live in the most tolerant & least racist country on Earth when describing Didier Drogba as a big, fast, strong & powerful bloke is peak Nazism. Wow. That's quite a jump from the discussion but ok...
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Post by foster on Jun 30, 2020 11:27:23 GMT
Yet so many of your ideas and rhetoric are identical. That's the eighth time you've called me a racist on the internet. You have no grounds for this, beyond my support for the concept of "black lives matter", which you characterise as racist. You are a pathetic internet hardman enjoying the thrill of insulting someone without having to suffer the consequences. You are beneath contempt. I pity you. I'm reminded of Brain Clough who may well have said 'There's no need for this type of thing.' We are better than name calling aren't we? Sounds like an intelligent man. Right-wing Royland really should refrain from the needless abuse he's unfairly aiming at me.
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Post by Orbs on Jun 30, 2020 11:34:06 GMT
I'm reminded of Brain Clough who may well have said 'There's no need for this type of thing.' We are better than name calling aren't we? Sounds like an intelligent man. Right-wing Royland really should refrain from the needless abuse he's unfairly aiming at me. Brians twin I think
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Post by Cast no shadow on Jun 30, 2020 11:37:06 GMT
Big Ron is a still a bad example. We don’t even properly understand unconscious bias and if/how it can be changed. A lot more research is required. It's everywhere. Just look at advertising for starters. The whole point is that it's unconscious so probably even futile to even try and look for it. It's only until someone points it out that you recognise it's happened/happening. It's like the Robbie Earle example with the girl crossing the street from him and the 'nudge' he sees so frequently when walking into shops. That really brought it home to me and that's why I think these examples should be shared more widely. It certainly isn't 'nit picking' as someone said earlier. On the point of advertising, how often do you see a white male with a black female partner with a Chinese kid knocking about? yet a good percentage of adverts that'll use a family of 3 do this?
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Post by foster on Jun 30, 2020 11:43:47 GMT
It's everywhere. Just look at advertising for starters. The whole point is that it's unconscious so probably even futile to even try and look for it. It's only until someone points it out that you recognise it's happened/happening. It's like the Robbie Earle example with the girl crossing the street from him and the 'nudge' he sees so frequently when walking into shops. That really brought it home to me and that's why I think these examples should be shared more widely. It certainly isn't 'nit picking' as someone said earlier. On the point of advertising, how often do you see a white male with a black female partner with a Chinese kid knocking about? yet a good percentage of adverts that'll use a family of 3 do this? Literally, I can't ever recall seeing that
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 11:46:00 GMT
It's everywhere. Just look at advertising for starters. The whole point is that it's unconscious so probably even futile to even try and look for it. It's only until someone points it out that you recognise it's happened/happening. It's like the Robbie Earle example with the girl crossing the street from him and the 'nudge' he sees so frequently when walking into shops. That really brought it home to me and that's why I think these examples should be shared more widely. It certainly isn't 'nit picking' as someone said earlier. On the point of advertising, how often do you see a white male with a black female partner with a Chinese kid knocking about? yet a good percentage of adverts that'll use a family of 3 do this? Never?
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