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Post by Kilo on Dec 7, 2020 20:53:00 GMT
But I'm not saying she's to blame for her illness - nowhere near saying that. But if "Sorry, I didn't take me tablets" is an acceptable excuse then everyone will use that defence for every crime ever committed in the future.
So she's not to blame for her illness unless she doesn't take her pills then she is? Is that a fair enough assessment so far? Nooo, You've brought in blame for the illness itself. Somebody on this messageboard has injected it with "twisting words to mean something else" though and it seems to be spreading to nearly every thread. More catching that that Covid.
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Post by elystokie on Dec 7, 2020 20:53:34 GMT
So does the same “mental health” issue apply to Peter Sutcliffe too. Wasn’t he hearing voices? Does that mean that he shouldn’t have been found guilty of murdering all those poor women. I don’t think he was even medicated. The not guilty to murder for the killing of little Emily really doesn’t sit well with me and like with the murder of Sutcliffe she should have got the same guilty charge. I think it's all about mental capacity isn't it? If psychologists/psychiatrists decided he knew what he was doing and had the wherewithal to stop it then it doesn't apply. Whoever treated/assessed this woman appears to have thought that she had the mental capacity to know that if she didn't take her pills something like this may happen. Tragically it seems they were wrong.
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Post by elystokie on Dec 7, 2020 20:55:16 GMT
So she's not to blame for her illness unless she doesn't tahke her pills then she is? Is that a fair enough assessment so far? Nooo, You've brought in blame for the illness itself. Somebody on this messageboard has injected it with "twisting words to mean something else" though and it seems to be spreading to nearly every thread. More catching that that Covid.
But it is her fault she's not taking the pills and not the fault of the illness?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Dec 7, 2020 20:59:56 GMT
True, but as a general life truism, I'm sure you'd agree that you get what you pay for. Underfund public services, including health, and get poor outcomes. Pretty obvious. Trite answer, but an extra million pounds could easily have had a significant impact on this particular case if it had been dedicated to providing monitoring of her mental well-being. That's the whole point. Of course more funding will improve the quality of life. Everyone at the age of 18 should get a free house, free Internet, water, gas and electricity, £4000 per month universal income, Teacher / pupil ratio should be 1/5 maximum., NHS budget should not be quesrioned_- spend what you want, Quadruple police numbers, free meals for children all year round, coastal guards should be increased 900 %. But in this case, the title of the thread, money would make little difference...the policy of care in the community or the decision-making would have. And her mental well-being may well have been exacerbated by being isolated, away from her homeland, which is one reason why Felonious ' point is relevant If two people with mental illness need referring for psychiatric assessment and there is only one place available because of a lack of beds and trained staff, then a judgement call has to be made about who stays, and who gets put out into the community. That is absolutely a funding issue, no ifs and no buts. And these are the decisions staff are having to make daily. And next time one of us is victim of an assault in town and there’s no police about, the chances are it’s because they have someone with mental illness in the back of their car ringing around various organisations to find out what the hell to do with them. Substitute police for paramedics and the same applies. A vicious circle made worse by a decade of austerity. You’re absolutely right it’s not always about funding, but when it come to our mental health crisis it’s a huge part of it......
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Post by cobhamstokey on Dec 7, 2020 21:00:23 GMT
So does the same “mental health” issue apply to Peter Sutcliffe too. Wasn’t he hearing voices? Does that mean that he shouldn’t have been found guilty of murdering all those poor women. I don’t think he was even medicated. The not guilty to murder for the killing of little Emily really doesn’t sit well with me and like with the murder of Sutcliffe she should have got the same guilty charge. I think it's all about mental capacity isn't it? If psychologists/psychiatrists decided he knew what he was doing and had the wherewithal to stop it then it doesn't apply. Whoever treated/assessed this woman appears to have thought that she had the mental capacity to know that if she didn't take her pills something like this may happen. Tragically it seems they were wrong. Sounds like a very fine line and yet another case of thinking more about the welfare of the offender rather than the victim. I can see a similar outcome for Sgt Ratana’s killer as this case will definately set a precident.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Dec 7, 2020 21:03:21 GMT
I think it's all about mental capacity isn't it? If psychologists/psychiatrists decided he knew what he was doing and had the wherewithal to stop it then it doesn't apply. Whoever treated/assessed this woman appears to have thought that she had the mental capacity to know that if she didn't take her pills something like this may happen. Tragically it seems they were wrong. Sounds like a very fine line and yet another case of thinking more about the welfare of the offender rather than the victim. I can see a similar outcome for Sgt Ratana’s killer as this case will definately set a precident. Or someone with a huge case load spreading themselves too thinly and not doing justice to their patients and therefore putting the public at risk through no fault of their own. These scenarios are happening up and down the country.....
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Post by elystokie on Dec 7, 2020 21:05:08 GMT
I think it's all about mental capacity isn't it? If psychologists/psychiatrists decided he knew what he was doing and had the wherewithal to stop it then it doesn't apply. Whoever treated/assessed this woman appears to have thought that she had the mental capacity to know that if she didn't take her pills something like this may happen. Tragically it seems they were wrong. Sounds like a very fine line and yet another case of thinking more about the welfare of the offender rather than the victim. I can see a similar outcome for Sgt Ratana’s killer as this case will definately set a precident. So the solution is?
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Post by cobhamstokey on Dec 7, 2020 21:06:25 GMT
Of course more funding will improve the quality of life. Everyone at the age of 18 should get a free house, free Internet, water, gas and electricity, £4000 per month universal income, Teacher / pupil ratio should be 1/5 maximum., NHS budget should not be quesrioned_- spend what you want, Quadruple police numbers, free meals for children all year round, coastal guards should be increased 900 %. But in this case, the title of the thread, money would make little difference...the policy of care in the community or the decision-making would have. And her mental well-being may well have been exacerbated by being isolated, away from her homeland, which is one reason why Felonious ' point is relevant If two people with mental illness need referring for psychiatric assessment and there is only one place available because of a lack of beds and trained staff, then a judgement call has to be made about who stays, and who gets put out into the community. That is absolutely a funding issue, no ifs and no buts. And these are the decisions staff are having to make daily. And next time one of us is victim of an assault in town and there’s no police about, the chances are it’s because they have someone with mental illness in the back of their car ringing around various organisations to find out what the hell to do with them. Substitute police for paramedics and the same applies. A vicious circle made worse by a decade of austerity. You’re absolutely right it’s not always about finding, but when it come to our mental health crisis it’s a huge part of it...... I don’t remember it being any different since I was a youngster and they had institutions. You’re spot on re police and paramedics dealing with mental health it’s even worse for youngsters and CAMHS referrals. It does sound like in this case that the authorities were aware however you can’t properly monitor someone unless your with them 24/7
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 7, 2020 21:07:27 GMT
If this mentally ill woman had been deported back to her homeland this innocent little girl would still be alive today.
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Post by Kilo on Dec 7, 2020 21:12:22 GMT
Nooo, You've brought in blame for the illness itself. Somebody on this messageboard has injected it with "twisting words to mean something else" though and it seems to be spreading to nearly every thread. More catching that that Covid.
But it is her fault she's not taking the pills and not the fault of the illness? Sorry, I didn't realise she was also too stupid to understand the consequencies of her actions whilst she was taking the pills. I assume you're her consultant if you know she's not capable of comprehending the instructions and if so then it would be your fault for not having her sectioned. Somebody must be responsible for the throat slitting, let's just not blame the person with the knife though.
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Post by elystokie on Dec 7, 2020 21:17:57 GMT
But it is her fault she's not taking the pills and not the fault of the illness? Sorry, I didn't realise she was also too stupid to understand the consequencies of her actions whilst she was taking the pills. I assume you're her consultant if you know she's not capable of comprehending the instructions and if so then it would be your fault for not having her sectioned. Somebody must be responsible for the throat slitting, let's just not blame the person with the knife though. I'm obviously not her consultant, nor am I capable of diagnosing a mental illness close up, never mind from miles away with only newspaper reports to go on, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist. It's okay tho, cos it seems there's people on here who are.
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Post by Kilo on Dec 7, 2020 21:29:43 GMT
Sorry, I didn't realise she was also too stupid to understand the consequencies of her actions whilst she was taking the pills. I assume you're her consultant if you know she's not capable of comprehending the instructions and if so then it would be your fault for not having her sectioned. Somebody must be responsible for the throat slitting, let's just not blame the person with the knife though. I'm obviously not her consultant, nor am I capable of diagnosing a mental illness close up, never mind from miles away with only newspaper reports to go on, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist. It's okay tho, cos it seems there's people on here who are. It's okay tho, cos all I originally said was that she made a choice, which she did. Somebody then forced me down a road of trying to comment on the diagnosis of her illness and I design buildings for a living so was a bit out of my depth on her full medical history.
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 7, 2020 21:36:47 GMT
Sorry, I didn't realise she was also too stupid to understand the consequencies of her actions whilst she was taking the pills. I assume you're her consultant if you know she's not capable of comprehending the instructions and if so then it would be your fault for not having her sectioned. Somebody must be responsible for the throat slitting, let's just not blame the person with the knife though. I'm obviously not her consultant, nor am I capable of diagnosing a mental illness close up, never mind from miles away with only newspaper reports to go on, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist. It's okay tho, cos it seems there's people on here who are. Who ?
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Post by elystokie on Dec 7, 2020 21:36:48 GMT
I'm obviously not her consultant, nor am I capable of diagnosing a mental illness close up, never mind from miles away with only newspaper reports to go on, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist. It's okay tho, cos it seems there's people on here who are. It's okay tho, cos all I originally said was that she made a choice, which she did. Somebody then forced me down a road of trying to comment on the diagnosis of her illness and I design buildings for a living so was a bit out of my depth on her full medical history. You already commented on her illness in your first post, nobody forced you to. You implied by way of your "quote marks" and emboldened words that she was responsible for her own illness because she didn't take the tablets she was prescribed, surely you're therefore assigning to her the mental capacity to have the knowledge of the consequences of her not taking the pills. Are you her consultant?
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 7, 2020 21:43:54 GMT
I'm obviously not her consultant, nor am I capable of diagnosing a mental illness close up, never mind from miles away with only newspaper reports to go on, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist. It's okay tho, cos it seems there's people on here who are. It's okay tho, cos all I originally said was that she made a choice, which she did. Somebody then forced me down a road of trying to comment on the diagnosis of her illness and I design buildings for a living so was a bit out of my depth on her full medical history. My bet is we didn't have access to her full medical history when she arrived on our shores, our prisons are full of foreign national criminals who have been tried and sentenced in the UK !, why are they not deported back to their native countries to stand trial after all these people are their problem as is the case with Shamima Begum and the other traitors who left to join terrorist organisations apparently according to the lib tards on this board.
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Post by Kilo on Dec 7, 2020 21:45:21 GMT
It's okay tho, cos all I originally said was that she made a choice, which she did. Somebody then forced me down a road of trying to comment on the diagnosis of her illness and I design buildings for a living so was a bit out of my depth on her full medical history. You already commented on her illness in your first post, nobody forced you to. You implied by way of your "quote marks" and emboldened words that she was responsible for her own illness because she didn't take the tablets she was prescribed, surely you're therefore assigning to her the mental capacity to have the knowledge of the consequences of her not taking the pills. Are you her consultant? I've already said I wasn't implying that yet you're re-stating it as fact - something I see a lot on here and therefore I'm done. Over and Out.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 7, 2020 22:24:33 GMT
Of course more funding will improve the quality of life. Everyone at the age of 18 should get a free house, free Internet, water, gas and electricity, £4000 per month universal income, Teacher / pupil ratio should be 1/5 maximum., NHS budget should not be quesrioned_- spend what you want, Quadruple police numbers, free meals for children all year round, coastal guards should be increased 900 %. But in this case, the title of the thread, money would make little difference...the policy of care in the community or the decision-making would have. And her mental well-being may well have been exacerbated by being isolated, away from her homeland, which is one reason why Felonious ' point is relevant If two people with mental illness need referring for psychiatric assessment and there is only one place available because of a lack of beds and trained staff, then a judgement call has to be made about who stays, and who gets put out into the community. That is absolutely a funding issue, no ifs and no buts. And these are the decisions staff are having to make daily. And next time one of us is victim of an assault in town and there’s no police about, the chances are it’s because they have someone with mental illness in the back of their car ringing around various organisations to find out what the hell to do with them. Substitute police for paramedics and the same applies. A vicious circle made worse by a decade of austerity. You’re absolutely right it’s not always about funding, but when it come to our mental health crisis it’s a huge part of it...... "If" is an important word. There is no evidence in this case that a bed wasn't available. In this case decisions wee made to allow the offender to stay in this country and decisions were made on her medication and to manage her in the community. That is the reason that she was free to slit a young girls throat. I've already said that there should not be cuts.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Dec 7, 2020 22:35:09 GMT
If two people with mental illness need referring for psychiatric assessment and there is only one place available because of a lack of beds and trained staff, then a judgement call has to be made about who stays, and who gets put out into the community. That is absolutely a funding issue, no ifs and no buts. And these are the decisions staff are having to make daily. And next time one of us is victim of an assault in town and there’s no police about, the chances are it’s because they have someone with mental illness in the back of their car ringing around various organisations to find out what the hell to do with them. Substitute police for paramedics and the same applies. A vicious circle made worse by a decade of austerity. You’re absolutely right it’s not always about funding, but when it come to our mental health crisis it’s a huge part of it...... "If" is an important word. There is no evidence in this case that a bed wasn't available. In this case decisions wee made to allow the offender to stay in this country and decisions were made on her medication and to manage her in the community. That is the reason that she was free to slit a young girls throat. I've already said that there should not be cuts. You don't know why those decisions were made though anymore than I do though. Skana's mental health nurse was off sick between December 2019 and didn't return until March 2020, during those 3 months no one from the department visited her or checked that she was taking her medication. Why was that I wonder? Too many cases and not enough people to look at them would be a fair guess I reckon.........
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 7, 2020 23:01:07 GMT
"If" is an important word. There is no evidence in this case that a bed wasn't available. In this case decisions wee made to allow the offender to stay in this country and decisions were made on her medication and to manage her in the community. That is the reason that she was free to slit a young girls throat. I've already said that there should not be cuts. You don't know why those decisions were made though anymore than I do though. Skana's mental health nurse was off sick between December 2019 and didn't return until March 2020, during those 3 months no one from the department visited her or checked that she was taking her medication. Why was that I wonder? Too many cases and not enough people to look at them would be a fair guess I reckon......... Exactly you don't know, you are making the usual assumptions, and a " guess" What we do know , funding was not mentioned in reference to the case. Decision making was mentioned , as was reference to a long expensive history of the authorities involvement in this person' s " care". I'm not continuing this as Cobham has indicated, I don't think that Emily's death should be reduced to the politics of funding. You can have the last word.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Dec 7, 2020 23:24:09 GMT
You don't know why those decisions were made though anymore than I do though. Skana's mental health nurse was off sick between December 2019 and didn't return until March 2020, during those 3 months no one from the department visited her or checked that she was taking her medication. Why was that I wonder? Too many cases and not enough people to look at them would be a fair guess I reckon......... Exactly you don't know, you are making the usual assumptions, and a " guess" What we do know , funding was not mentioned in reference to the case. Decision making was mentioned , as was reference to a long expensive history of the authorities involvement in this person' s " care". I'm not continuing this as Cobham has indicated, I don't think that Emily's death should be reduced to the politics of funding. You can have the last word. What we also know is that a mental health nurse went off sick for three months and no one picked up the case. That was absolutely crucial here and tragic as that intervention could have been vital, and we don't know why. You can be appalled by the poor girls death and still make a general point about the disgrace that is the state of mental health care in this country John. We have 6,000 less mental health nurses than we had in 2009 with cases of mental health being on the rise (partly due to increased awareness). RIP Emily x
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Post by cobhamstokey on Dec 8, 2020 2:52:22 GMT
Exactly you don't know, you are making the usual assumptions, and a " guess" What we do know , funding was not mentioned in reference to the case. Decision making was mentioned , as was reference to a long expensive history of the authorities involvement in this person' s " care". I'm not continuing this as Cobham has indicated, I don't think that Emily's death should be reduced to the politics of funding. You can have the last word. What we also know is that a mental health nurse went off sick for three months and no one picked up the case. That was absolutely crucial here and tragic as that intervention could have been vital, and we don't know why. You can be appalled by the poor girls death and still make a general point about the disgrace that is the state of mental health care in this country John. We have 6,000 less mental health nurses than we had in 2009 with cases of mental health being on the rise (partly due to increased awareness). RIP Emily x It just seems to me that rather than blame Emily’s murder on the cuts we should blame it on the perpetrator. Each case is different however we can’t guess or double guess on what would have happened because of cuts because if there was any justice the murderer shouldnt have been out in the community in the first place medicated or not. I’m sure that there’s lots of do gooders that would say “well what about her human rights?” My reply would be that unlike poor little Emily at least she still has a life. Sometimes the human rights of dangerous people aren’t worth taking a risk when the consequences of doing so are so tragic. Look over recent months and all the tragic incidents Matt Ratana Reading Glasgow All cases where it was alluded to the perpetrators having mental health issues.
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Post by foster on Dec 8, 2020 6:43:35 GMT
What we also know is that a mental health nurse went off sick for three months and no one picked up the case. That was absolutely crucial here and tragic as that intervention could have been vital, and we don't know why. You can be appalled by the poor girls death and still make a general point about the disgrace that is the state of mental health care in this country John. We have 6,000 less mental health nurses than we had in 2009 with cases of mental health being on the rise (partly due to increased awareness). RIP Emily x It just seems to me that rather than blame Emily’s murder on the cuts we should blame it on the perpetrator. Each case is different however we can’t guess or double guess on what would have happened because of cuts because if there was any justice the murderer shouldnt have been out in the community in the first place medicated or not. I’m sure that there’s lots of do gooders that would say “well what about her human rights?” My reply would be that unlike poor little Emily at least she still has a life. Sometimes the human rights of dangerous people aren’t worth taking a risk when the consequences of doing so are so tragic.Look over recent months and all the tragic incidents Matt Ratana Reading Glasgow All cases where it was alluded to the perpetrators having mental health issues. This.. but also when it comes to 'potentially' dangerous people and 'potential' consequences. The safety of the general public should be paramount, but seems to be too often left to chance as a result of lack of funding, resources and facilities. RIP Emily.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Dec 8, 2020 8:03:22 GMT
This "clearly mentally ill" woman at some point chose to stop taking her medication. At which point in your little socialist world do people have to take any responsibility for their own actions? or should the government and rich people always take the blame for everything that goes wrong on the planet? Well said that man. I’m sorry RWB but I only have sympathy for the victim and her family on this. There’s a lot of murderers that are ill it’s hard to feel any sympathy for them. I don’t advocate hanging but I certainly don’t think that illness should remove them from any responsibility. We all have sympathy for the girl and her family. But that shouldn't detract from discussing the background causes of cases like this. Apart from finding it a bit alarming that you think mentally ill people should be held responsible for their actions (although that doesn't surprise me) which is in direct contrast to all mental health experts, how do you think this woman should have been managed to ensure she was taking her medication, and then dealt with if it was found she wasn't? Especially if the resources to do so have been cut to the bone? It's so easy to just blame an individual 'psycho' and ignore all the possible ways this could have been properly managed and prevented. If you want an analogy, compare the ability of our anti-terrorist authorities to increasingly successfully detect, manage and prevent large numbers of threats and incidents (not all, obviously, you'll never stop all of them) and why is that? Simple, they have the resources to do so. And if you want another one, look at how quickly we've managed to find a vaccine for Covid when enough resources are chucked at it. It's all about priorities and the political will (or otherwise) to deal with certain problems over others. It's very much not just about simplifying it to be about individual psychos. Sooner or later, we'll need to appreciate that there is more than enough money in this country (the world's fifth largest economy we're constantly told) to sort out most of this country's problems. However, there is little political will to do so, because that will involve a redistribution of wealth, so it's inevitable that health and education outcomes will continue to be poor and tragic incidents like this will continue to occur. Like I said, it's a truism in life that you get what you pay for.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Dec 8, 2020 13:44:57 GMT
Well said that man. I’m sorry RWB but I only have sympathy for the victim and her family on this. There’s a lot of murderers that are ill it’s hard to feel any sympathy for them. I don’t advocate hanging but I certainly don’t think that illness should remove them from any responsibility. We all have sympathy for the girl and her family. But that shouldn't detract from discussing the background causes of cases like this. Apart from finding it a bit alarming that you think mentally ill people should be held responsible for their actions (although that doesn't surprise me) which is in direct contrast to all mental health experts, how do you think this woman should have been managed to ensure she was taking her medication, and then dealt with if it was found she wasn't? Especially if the resources to do so have been cut to the bone? It's so easy to just blame an individual 'psycho' and ignore all the possible ways this could have been properly managed and prevented. If you want an analogy, compare the ability of our anti-terrorist authorities to increasingly successfully detect, manage and prevent large numbers of threats and incidents (not all, obviously, you'll never stop all of them) and why is that? Simple, they have the resources to do so. And if you want another one, look at how quickly we've managed to find a vaccine for Covid when enough resources are chucked at it. It's all about priorities and the political will (or otherwise) to deal with certain problems over others. It's very much not just about simplifying it to be about individual psychos. Sooner or later, we'll need to appreciate that there is more than enough money in this country (the world's fifth largest economy we're constantly told) to sort out most of this country's problems. However, there is little political will to do so, because that will involve a redistribution of wealth, so it's inevitable that health and education outcomes will continue to be poor and tragic incidents like this will continue to occur. Like I said, it's a truism in life that you get what you pay for. Very well put. I don’t wholeheartadly agree as I’m a little headstrong on these sort of matters as I’m very much basing my thoughts from the victims perspective. That said your posts are very eloquent and this discussion proves people can still disagree without things having to get nasty. RIP Emily.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Dec 8, 2020 13:52:36 GMT
We all have sympathy for the girl and her family. But that shouldn't detract from discussing the background causes of cases like this. Apart from finding it a bit alarming that you think mentally ill people should be held responsible for their actions (although that doesn't surprise me) which is in direct contrast to all mental health experts, how do you think this woman should have been managed to ensure she was taking her medication, and then dealt with if it was found she wasn't? Especially if the resources to do so have been cut to the bone? It's so easy to just blame an individual 'psycho' and ignore all the possible ways this could have been properly managed and prevented. If you want an analogy, compare the ability of our anti-terrorist authorities to increasingly successfully detect, manage and prevent large numbers of threats and incidents (not all, obviously, you'll never stop all of them) and why is that? Simple, they have the resources to do so. And if you want another one, look at how quickly we've managed to find a vaccine for Covid when enough resources are chucked at it. It's all about priorities and the political will (or otherwise) to deal with certain problems over others. It's very much not just about simplifying it to be about individual psychos. Sooner or later, we'll need to appreciate that there is more than enough money in this country (the world's fifth largest economy we're constantly told) to sort out most of this country's problems. However, there is little political will to do so, because that will involve a redistribution of wealth, so it's inevitable that health and education outcomes will continue to be poor and tragic incidents like this will continue to occur. Like I said, it's a truism in life that you get what you pay for. Very well put. I don’t wholeheartadly agree as I’m a little headstrong on these sort of matters as I’m very much basing on the ideas of the victim. That said your posts are very eloquent and this discussion proves people can still disagree without things having to get nasty. RIP Emily. Nice one, cobham. I understand the emotion, I really do, especially for the victim's family, but once that fades from cases like this, you have to start looking at why things happen and how they can be prevented. The report on the Christchurch massacre has just come out, which has effectively done the same thing, now that the initial horror and disgust has dissipated somewhat. Anyway, wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of your last two sentences.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Dec 8, 2020 14:03:38 GMT
A great example of how two people not necessarily on the same page can debate respectfully.
If it happened more often the board would be better for it, and I include myself in that......
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Post by foster on Dec 8, 2020 15:39:35 GMT
A great example of how two people not necessarily on the same page can debate respectfully. If it happened more often the board would be better for it, and I include myself in that...... It's still early mate. Won't last long unfortunately.
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