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Post by hoffgreen on Jun 1, 2020 19:35:17 GMT
#alllivesmatter
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 1, 2020 20:13:04 GMT
It was a totally horrific murder, that could have happened to any of our children. Imagine putting yourself in the shoes of her parent.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Nov 7, 2020 10:22:25 GMT
An Albanian woman has pleaded guilty to stabbing seven-year-old Emily Jones to death in a 'random' attack in front of her her horrified parents on Mother's day - but denies murder.Link. Can one of the legal brains off here explain that one to me, how can you admit to stabbing a seven-year-old to death, but deny that you murdered them?
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Nov 7, 2020 10:25:50 GMT
An Albanian woman has pleaded guilty to stabbing seven-year-old Emily Jones to death in a 'random' attack in front of her her horrified parents on Mother's day - but denies murder.Link. Can one of the legal brains off here explain that one to me, how can you admit to stabbing a seven-year-old to death, but deny that you murdered them? It’s not the old diminished responsibility chestnut is it?🤔 Mentally unstable etc.....
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Post by telfordstoke on Nov 7, 2020 10:39:27 GMT
Presume the diminished responsibility argument also, just a horrendous heart wrenching crime
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Post by Linx on Nov 7, 2020 10:45:14 GMT
An Albanian woman has pleaded guilty to stabbing seven-year-old Emily Jones to death in a 'random' attack in front of her her horrified parents on Mother's day - but denies murder.Link. Can one of the legal brains off here explain that one to me, how can you admit to stabbing a seven-year-old to death, but deny that you murdered them? It’s not the old diminished responsibility chestnut is it?🤔 Mentally unstable etc..... Which is why she’s on remand in Rampton Hospital, the high security psychiatric hospital-prison.
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 7, 2020 11:11:27 GMT
It’s not the old diminished responsibility chestnut is it?🤔 Mentally unstable etc..... Which is why she’s on remand in Rampton Hospital, the high security psychiatric hospital-prison. Another unnecessary drain on the public purse, she should have been hanged by the neck until she was dead.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Nov 7, 2020 11:25:53 GMT
For cases like this they should bring back hanging. Tragic with all her life in front of her.
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Post by Linx on Nov 7, 2020 11:26:54 GMT
Which is why she’s on remand in Rampton Hospital, the high security psychiatric hospital-prison. Another unnecessary drain on the public purse, she should have been hanged by the neck until she was dead. TBH if she had murdered my daughter in front of me, like she did, she wouldn’t have been alive by the time the police arrived. And hang the consequences.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Nov 7, 2020 11:29:32 GMT
It’s not the old diminished responsibility chestnut is it?🤔 Mentally unstable etc..... Which is why she’s on remand in Rampton Hospital, the high security psychiatric hospital-prison. If she was that unstable why was she in the community in the first place. Surely unless she completely slipped through the net she would have been under section. Questions need to be asked of mental health / social services if we’re going down this route. Just read the article and it truly was tragic a little girl on Mother’s Day cycling in the park with her dad in the park and this piece of scum attacks her without warning. Her poor family will never get over this. To try to get the case lowered to manslaughter is an insult to little Emilys memory.
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Post by crapslinger on Nov 7, 2020 13:16:23 GMT
Another unnecessary drain on the public purse, she should have been hanged by the neck until she was dead. TBH if she had murdered my daughter in front of me, like she did, she wouldn’t have been alive by the time the police arrived. And hang the consequences. As would I however we would probably get charged with murder.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 7, 2020 15:44:08 GMT
An Albanian woman has pleaded guilty to stabbing seven-year-old Emily Jones to death in a 'random' attack in front of her her horrified parents on Mother's day - but denies murder.Link. Can one of the legal brains off here explain that one to me, how can you admit to stabbing a seven-year-old to death, but deny that you murdered them? It’s not the old diminished responsibility chestnut is it?🤔 Mentally unstable etc..... Yes, I think so. You probably have to be in full possession of your faculties at the time of the event (and possibly before) to be found guilty of murder in the eyes of the law, rather than the court of public opinion, which is the important bit legally. She'll probably get manslaughter and spend the rest of her time in a mental hospital. There was a fascinating programme on Peter Sutcliffe revently. He was "nuts" (to put it bluntly) according to several independent psychiatric evaluations at his trial and should have been convicted of manslaughter rather than murder but the politics at the time insisted he get convicted for murder. He was almost instantly transferred to Rampton hospital for the criminally insane after the verdict where I think he remains. Thankfully, we stopped hanging mentally ill people many decades ago. Not that that will be any comfort to the poor child's family, but as a society it's the right thing to do.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Nov 7, 2020 16:45:16 GMT
It’s not the old diminished responsibility chestnut is it?🤔 Mentally unstable etc..... Yes, I think so. You probably have to be in full possession of your faculties at the time of the event (and possibly before) to be found guilty of murder in the eyes of the law, rather than the court of public opinion, which is the important bit legally. She'll probably get manslaughter and spend the rest of her time in a mental hospital. There was a fascinating programme on Peter Sutcliffe revently. He was "nuts" (to put it bluntly) according to several independent psychiatric evaluations at his trial and should have been convicted of manslaughter rather than murder but the politics at the time insisted he get convicted for murder. He was almost instantly transferred to Rampton hospital for the criminally insane after the verdict where I think he remains. Thankfully, we stopped hanging mentally ill people many decades ago. Not that that will be any comfort to the poor child's family, but as a society it's the right thing to do. As long as she never gets her freedom.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 7, 2020 17:05:24 GMT
Yes, I think so. You probably have to be in full possession of your faculties at the time of the event (and possibly before) to be found guilty of murder in the eyes of the law, rather than the court of public opinion, which is the important bit legally. She'll probably get manslaughter and spend the rest of her time in a mental hospital. There was a fascinating programme on Peter Sutcliffe revently. He was "nuts" (to put it bluntly) according to several independent psychiatric evaluations at his trial and should have been convicted of manslaughter rather than murder but the politics at the time insisted he get convicted for murder. He was almost instantly transferred to Rampton hospital for the criminally insane after the verdict where I think he remains. Thankfully, we stopped hanging mentally ill people many decades ago. Not that that will be any comfort to the poor child's family, but as a society it's the right thing to do. As long as she never gets her freedom. That should be the case for anyone who (wilfully*) takes a life, including that copper who killed his mistress the other week. I see one of the yobs who kicked Gary Newlove to death is due for release soon. 13 years inside, out at 29. Simply wrong. * mental illness and crime is a very difficult area. Who can actually say what is a "wilfull" action with regard to mental illness? I'll leave it at that.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Nov 7, 2020 17:10:20 GMT
As long as she never gets her freedom. That should be the case for anyone who (wilfully*) takes a life, including that copper who killed his mistress the other week. I see one of the yobs who kicked Gary Newlove to death is due for release soon. 13 years inside, out at 29. Simply wrong. * mental illness and crime is a very difficult area. I'll leave it at that. I won’t disagree with that anyone who knowingly takes a life and should never be released. In the case of Gary Newloves killer they’ll still be young and have a life unlike Gary. I’d imagine that the little lad from Liverpool’s killer will be due out soon and they were absolute pondlife.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 7, 2020 17:12:50 GMT
That should be the case for anyone who (wilfully*) takes a life, including that copper who killed his mistress the other week. I see one of the yobs who kicked Gary Newlove to death is due for release soon. 13 years inside, out at 29. Simply wrong. * mental illness and crime is a very difficult area. I'll leave it at that. I won’t disagree with that anyone who knowingly takes a life and should never be released. In the case of Gary Newloves killer they’ll still be young and have a life unlike Gary. I’d imagine that the little lad from Liverpool’s killer will be due out soon and they were absolute pondlife. I think Venables is back inside and facing further charges for child porn. Thompson has been out for years. Again, wrong.
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Post by woodstein on Nov 7, 2020 20:32:59 GMT
It’s not the old diminished responsibility chestnut is it?🤔 Mentally unstable etc..... Which is why she’s on remand in Rampton Hospital, the high security psychiatric hospital-prison. Wasn'the Yorkshire ripper in there though and he planned what he was doing? Not there now though, they'll probably release her in the future. Any risks like them should be hung.
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Nov 7, 2020 20:39:52 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 7, 2020 20:43:36 GMT
Another unnecessary drain on the public purse, she should have been hanged by the neck until she was dead. TBH if she had murdered my daughter in front of me, like she did, she wouldn’t have been alive by the time the police arrived. And hang the consequences. That’s diminished responsibility
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Post by wilcopotter on Nov 7, 2020 21:20:36 GMT
Which is why she’s on remand in Rampton Hospital, the high security psychiatric hospital-prison. If she was that unstable why was she in the community in the first place. Surely unless she completely slipped through the net she would have been under section. Questions need to be asked of mental health / social services if we’re going down this route. Just read the article and it truly was tragic a little girl on Mother’s Day cycling in the park with her dad in the park and this piece of scum attacks her without warning. Her poor family will never get over this. To try to get the case lowered to manslaughter is an insult to little Emilys memory. Slipped through the net to get in the country all expenses paid and had the predetermined state of mind to do that, but then stabs a child to death and doesn’t know what she’s doing, hard to believe that one.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Dec 4, 2020 14:40:16 GMT
Accused has been cleared of murder and rightly so.
Abhorrent crime and according to psychiatrists at Rampton clearly mentally ill, so will probably spend the rest of her life inside Rampton, which is how it should be.
Thankfully, we've moved on from stringing up mentally ill people in this country for their crimes.
No doubt this will not please some folk on here, nor assuage their desire for vengeance, nor will it do anything to relieve the awful grief that her family must be feeling, but it's the right thing to do in a civilised society.
What also needs to happen is better funding for the services whose role it is to track and treat people like this before these crimes are committed, not cut funding to the bone and then wonder why this kind of stuff happens.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 4, 2020 17:44:10 GMT
Accused has been cleared of murder and rightly so. Abhorrent crime and according to psychiatrists at Rampton clearly mentally ill, so will probably spend the rest of her life inside Rampton, which is how it should be. Thankfully, we've moved on from stringing up mentally ill people in this country for their crimes. No doubt this will not please some folk on here, nor assuage their desire for vengeance, nor will it do anything to relieve the awful grief that her family must be feeling, but it's the right thing to do in a civilised society. What also needs to happen is better funding for the services whose role it is to track and treat people like this before these crimes are committed, not cut funding to the bone and then wonder why this kind of stuff happens. Whilst I don't believe in cutting services, I don't think it's always the reason behind all tragedies. In this case, as the report below suggests, enough people were involved in the offender's " care" before the incident. It is more of a question of how to deal with people who may have a mental health condition that may lead to crime , when to intervene and particularly when to manage them in the community compared to being confined for the safety of the public. Both the main political parties have been responsible for a move towards " care in the community " ............ from the link..... The jury also heard from Victoria Fagan, the community mental health nurse who treated Skana before the incident. Skana had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and was switched from injected medication to tablets around four months before the Emily's death on March 22, jurors have heard. Police at the scene(Image: M.E.N.) Miss Fagan said Skana had been previously treated by Bolton's early intervention team - a body which works with patients at risk of having a psychotic episode - before she was passed to the community mental health team and Miss Fagan became her nurse in early 2019. She said she had some 'concerns' about switching the defendant's medication. “I had concerns when Eltiona was taken off [the injections] that she could relapse so I increased my visits," she told the court. "However, there was no change in her presentation.” Murder trial told woman who killed schoolgirl Emily Jones said to nurse: 'I waited in the park... I picked my victim' - Manchester Evening News www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/murder-trial-told-woman-who-19378997.amp?int_source=taboola&int_medium=display&int_campaign=organic
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Post by felonious on Dec 4, 2020 19:24:03 GMT
Does anyone know what she was doing in the UK?
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Post by cobhamstokey on Dec 4, 2020 19:41:31 GMT
Accused has been cleared of murder and rightly so. Abhorrent crime and according to psychiatrists at Rampton clearly mentally ill, so will probably spend the rest of her life inside Rampton, which is how it should be. Thankfully, we've moved on from stringing up mentally ill people in this country for their crimes. No doubt this will not please some folk on here, nor assuage their desire for vengeance, nor will it do anything to relieve the awful grief that her family must be feeling, but it's the right thing to do in a civilised society. What also needs to happen is better funding for the services whose role it is to track and treat people like this before these crimes are committed, not cut funding to the bone and then wonder why this kind of stuff happens. The question has to be what she was doing in the community in the first place. Too much is given too supporting the offenders whilst putting the innocent at risk. Truly tragic
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Post by Dave the Rave on Dec 4, 2020 21:49:24 GMT
Accused has been cleared of murder and rightly so. Abhorrent crime and according to psychiatrists at Rampton clearly mentally ill, so will probably spend the rest of her life inside Rampton, which is how it should be. Thankfully, we've moved on from stringing up mentally ill people in this country for their crimes. No doubt this will not please some folk on here, nor assuage their desire for vengeance, nor will it do anything to relieve the awful grief that her family must be feeling, but it's the right thing to do in a civilised society. What also needs to happen is better funding for the services whose role it is to track and treat people like this before these crimes are committed, not cut funding to the bone and then wonder why this kind of stuff happens. The question has to be what she was doing in the community in the first place. Too much is given too supporting the offenders whilst putting the innocent at risk. Truly tragic She was probably in the community due to huge cuts in bed numbers because community services are cheaper. There simply isn't enough MH beds for the amount of people who need them. Perfectly acceptable and expected under conservatism. As a Conservative lead country we'll always seek to reduce expenditure on areas that benefit only us peasants. It's what we voted for. Before you show me graphs of increasing health expenditure, look at it in real terms and where it's actually being spent. Most of the increases have been swallowed up by regulators and middle men - huge swathes of DoH funding never make it to the front line. I've worked in the NHS for 18 years and we've had to make savings in every single one of those years - every single one. So tell me, where did all this money go? www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/nhs-hospital-bed-numbers
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Dec 5, 2020 19:36:08 GMT
Accused has been cleared of murder and rightly so. Abhorrent crime and according to psychiatrists at Rampton clearly mentally ill, so will probably spend the rest of her life inside Rampton, which is how it should be. Thankfully, we've moved on from stringing up mentally ill people in this country for their crimes. No doubt this will not please some folk on here, nor assuage their desire for vengeance, nor will it do anything to relieve the awful grief that her family must be feeling, but it's the right thing to do in a civilised society. What also needs to happen is better funding for the services whose role it is to track and treat people like this before these crimes are committed, not cut funding to the bone and then wonder why this kind of stuff happens. The question has to be what she was doing in the community in the first place. Too much is given too supporting the offenders whilst putting the innocent at risk. Truly tragic See my last sentence and the entirety of DavetheRave's post for the answer to that one... But always so much easier to just blame the individual and want them strung up, without thinking much beyond the actual case.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 5, 2020 19:55:37 GMT
The question has to be what she was doing in the community in the first place. Too much is given too supporting the offenders whilst putting the innocent at risk. Truly tragic See my last sentence and the entirety of DavetheRave's post for the answer to that one... But always so much easier to just blame the individual and want them strung up, without thinking much beyond the actual case. Finance always plays a part in public spending decisions, and as I've said earlier in the thread I'm not in favour of cuts...but if you read the facts of this case and some of the thinking behind care in the community then there were specific mistakes made/ decisions about medication and whether the offender should indeed be in the community. It is much too simplistic to say it is down to " cuts", particularly "Tory cuts" . The policy has increasingly been to try to " manage" such people on the community. Felonious and Cobham ask valid questions, which have been asked in court and I'd imagine by Emily's family....why was this person not in secure care? Enough people were involved in her care, not a funding issue.If we spent a million pound on her alone, the same question would have to be asked....in the community, in a mental health hospital. Precisely the same thing would have happened under a Labour government. It may only be Wikipedia but it does give an overview of the philosophy and links to the reports behind the thinking....both main political parties supported it as a more enlightened movement to treat mental illness( previously confined to asylums). en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Care_in_the_Community
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Post by Okie Stokie. on Dec 5, 2020 20:02:02 GMT
R.I.P.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Dec 5, 2020 20:42:07 GMT
See my last sentence and the entirety of DavetheRave's post for the answer to that one... But always so much easier to just blame the individual and want them strung up, without thinking much beyond the actual case. Finance always plays a part in public spending decisions, and as I've said earlier in the thread I'm not in favour of cuts...but if you read the facts of this case and some of the thinking behind care in the community then there were specific mistakes made/ decisions about medication and whether the offender should indeed be in the community. It is much too simplistic to say it is down to " cuts", particularly "Tory cuts" . The policy has increasingly been to try to " manage" such people on the community. Felonious and Cobham ask valid questions, which have been asked in court and I'd imagine by Emily's family....why was this person not in secure care? Enough people were involved in her care, not a funding issue.If we spent a million pound on her alone, the same question would have to be asked....in the community, in a mental health hospital. Precisely the same thing would have happened under a Labour government. It may only be Wikipedia but it does give an overview of the philosophy and links to the reports behind the thinking....both main political parties supported it as a more enlightened movement to treat mental illness( previously confined to asylums). en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Care_in_the_CommunitySeems pretty obvious that if you cut funding to mental health services, among other health services, that the incidence of tragic events like this will inevitably increase. Similarly, waiting times have lengthened and operation cancellations have increased as a result of public health funding being way below what is identified as necessary for the UK by health professionals. Of course, if you don't want to believe that poorer funding results in poorer outcomes across all public services, then it's easier to blame individuals for individual mistakes and pretend that it's nothing to do with funding. Care in the Community does indeed result in better outcomes for the majority of people involved, but it also requires adequate funding to ensure that awful cases like these are avoided through proper management and supervision, all of which, sadly, costs money which hasn't really been forthcoming for many years.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 5, 2020 20:46:24 GMT
Finance always plays a part in public spending decisions, and as I've said earlier in the thread I'm not in favour of cuts...but if you read the facts of this case and some of the thinking behind care in the community then there were specific mistakes made/ decisions about medication and whether the offender should indeed be in the community. It is much too simplistic to say it is down to " cuts", particularly "Tory cuts" . The policy has increasingly been to try to " manage" such people on the community. Felonious and Cobham ask valid questions, which have been asked in court and I'd imagine by Emily's family....why was this person not in secure care? Enough people were involved in her care, not a funding issue.If we spent a million pound on her alone, the same question would have to be asked....in the community, in a mental health hospital. Precisely the same thing would have happened under a Labour government. It may only be Wikipedia but it does give an overview of the philosophy and links to the reports behind the thinking....both main political parties supported it as a more enlightened movement to treat mental illness( previously confined to asylums). en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Care_in_the_CommunitySeems pretty obvious that if you cut funding to mental health services, among other health services, that the incidence of tragic events like this will inevitably increase. Of course, if you don't want to believe that poorer funding results in poorer outcomes across all public services, then it's easier to blame individuals for individual mistakes and pretend that it's nothing to do with funding. Not really. Everything in life isn't about money. I've said that I'm against funding cuts. If you look into it this was a decision about whether the offender should have been cared for in the community...or not and if she was on the correct medication. As I say an extra million pounds spent on her would not have changed the facts of this particular case. It seems obvious.
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