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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 15, 2020 22:26:55 GMT
Yes , I agree with that, they do go pre- Corbyn. Labour has been struggling for a few years. Unfortunately due to his personal history, his leadership and the party's position on the most important contemporary political issue,Brexit, the gulf between the working class and the party was confirmed....so they voted for Boris. Corbyn certainly did not improve things. He improved things massively up until Brexit. It was and was always going to be his downfall. If people want to appraise Corbyn’s reign without taking into account the bile from the mainstream media and the appalling behaviour of a section of the PLP then they’re being disingenuous..... Corbyn and brexit was the ultimate catalyst but if you look into this so called red wall in a lot of seats the labour share of the vote had been in decline for years the working class have either left labour or become apathetic in their droves
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 22:29:35 GMT
He improved things massively up until Brexit. It was and was always going to be his downfall. If people want to appraise Corbyn’s reign without taking into account the bile from the mainstream media and the appalling behaviour of a section of the PLP then they’re being disingenuous..... Corbyn and brexit was the ultimate catalyst but if you look into this so called red wall in a lot of seats the labour share of the vote had been in decline for years the working class have either left labour or become apathetic in their droves Exactly, the only sniff off a comeback was in 2017. Scotland is all on Blair and Brown, Labour were completely decimated and winning an election without it is tricky.....
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Post by thevoid on Oct 16, 2020 2:58:30 GMT
...and then oppose their own deal!...nonsense. The electorate did not want that , no need for a second referendum.....with the intention to Remain.....so they rejected Labour.....and it seems that some Labour supporters still don't get it...(Caroline Flint got it) The only reason you didn’t want a second referendum is that you were terrified of losing it?! All this sovrinty rubbish is a cover for anti democratic right wingers masquerading as spokesmen and women for Joe Public! In a few weeks time the Americans get to vote on a fraudulent right wing conman and it looks highly likely he will get his arse kicked! The only reason I and others didn't want a second referendum was that it wasn't required. It was a once in a lifetime vote, not best of five. As for being 'anti-democratic' I'd say a prime example of this is refusing to accept the outcome of said vote, but carry on 😆 I'm not sure what your bizarre segue into the US election has to do with the matter at hand either....
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 16, 2020 3:13:11 GMT
The only reason you didn’t want a second referendum is that you were terrified of losing it?! All this sovrinty rubbish is a cover for anti democratic right wingers masquerading as spokesmen and women for Joe Public! In a few weeks time the Americans get to vote on a fraudulent right wing conman and it looks highly likely he will get his arse kicked! The only reason I and others didn't want a second referendum was that it wasn't required. It was a once in a lifetime vote, not best of five. As for being 'anti-democratic' I'd say a prime example of this is refusing to accept the outcome of said vote, but carry on 😆 I'm not sure what your bizarre segue into the US election has to do with the matter at hand either.... Why should you decide if a referendum should only be once when millions disagree with you? This isn’t democracy but a hijacking of the process? As for Donald Trump’s involvement? Farage and Boris see Donald as a bosom pal. Farage even does work for Fox News Donald’s favourite cable news channel! Great to see at least one of these conmen well and truly in the fertiliser?!🤗
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Post by thevoid on Oct 16, 2020 3:37:51 GMT
The only reason I and others didn't want a second referendum was that it wasn't required. It was a once in a lifetime vote, not best of five. As for being 'anti-democratic' I'd say a prime example of this is refusing to accept the outcome of said vote, but carry on 😆 I'm not sure what your bizarre segue into the US election has to do with the matter at hand either.... Why should you decide if a referendum should only be once when millions disagree with you? This isn’t democracy but a hijacking of the process? As for Donald Trump’s involvement? Farage and Boris see Donald as a bosom pal. Farage even does work for Fox News Donald’s favourite cable news channel! Great to see at least one of these conmen well and truly in the fertiliser?!🤗 That's kind of how referenda and elections work 😆 You have a single vote on the matter and then the result is carried out accordingly. It's not the World Series. It isn't me 'deciding', them's the rules Nicko. Every referendum/election result in history has millions on the losing side, you're not going to satisfy everybody I'm afraid. Anyway, who are you to decide that millions of people's votes are to be ignored and democracy is made a mockery of? Presumably, if Biden wins by a nose, you'll be demanding a re-run due to all of those millions of upset people? Naah, thought not 😎
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 16, 2020 6:33:16 GMT
The only reason I and others didn't want a second referendum was that it wasn't required. It was a once in a lifetime vote, not best of five. As for being 'anti-democratic' I'd say a prime example of this is refusing to accept the outcome of said vote, but carry on 😆 I'm not sure what your bizarre segue into the US election has to do with the matter at hand either.... Why should you decide if a referendum should only be once when millions disagree with you? This isn’t democracy but a hijacking of the process? As for Donald Trump’s involvement? Farage and Boris see Donald as a bosom pal. Farage even does work for Fox News Donald’s favourite cable news channel! Great to see at least one of these conmen well and truly in the fertiliser?!🤗 You need to take care bitterness can end up consuming you
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Post by ColonelMustard on Oct 16, 2020 8:41:42 GMT
The only reason I and others didn't want a second referendum was that it wasn't required. It was a once in a lifetime vote, not best of five. As for being 'anti-democratic' I'd say a prime example of this is refusing to accept the outcome of said vote, but carry on 😆 I'm not sure what your bizarre segue into the US election has to do with the matter at hand either.... Why should you decide if a referendum should only be once when millions disagree with you? This isn’t democracy but a hijacking of the process? As for Donald Trump’s involvement? Farage and Boris see Donald as a bosom pal. Farage even does work for Fox News Donald’s favourite cable news channel! Great to see at least one of these conmen well and truly in the fertiliser?!🤗 With respect. If you think any vote in a few generations has been really fair you are kidding yourself. I was a Remain voter and as gutted and dismayed people voted themselves less free as anyone, but few things as democratic as the 2016 referendum have happened in this country. We joined the EEC in the 70's people being told it would not become a political union. We joined the EU on a confidence vote, with no referendum, in 93. People campaigned and gave their vote to a single issue party for the following 20 years in order to finally get a referendum on it and through means no more scullduggerous than in a normal election, they won it with the most votes for anything in this country. It was set up to be a once in a lifetime vote. It stinks. I'll be happy as anyone if Trump gets a kicking even if only to wraken Bolsonaro,Netenyahu etc as they need to be. But sour grapes over the referendum would be better channelled into sorting our electoral system, the money in politics and media ownership than reinventing unfair ideas of democracy in our favour. Imo.Even Sir Keith realises (too late) there is no case to rejoin or talk of rejoining for a good while.
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Post by thevoid on Oct 16, 2020 10:02:45 GMT
Why should you decide if a referendum should only be once when millions disagree with you? This isn’t democracy but a hijacking of the process? As for Donald Trump’s involvement? Farage and Boris see Donald as a bosom pal. Farage even does work for Fox News Donald’s favourite cable news channel! Great to see at least one of these conmen well and truly in the fertiliser?!🤗 You need to take care bitterness can end up consuming you I think you're locking the stable door when the horse has bolted with this one 😎
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 16, 2020 11:36:37 GMT
You need to take care bitterness can end up consuming you I think you're locking the stable door when the horse has bolted with this one 😎 Of course, things have now moved on. No-one is disputing that! However, this doesn’t validate your point about the choices on offer at the last general election! We were told then that more negotiations would cause chaos? You mean just like the chaos Bluffer is inflicting on the country at this minute? An oven ready trade deal? I’ve eaten less burnt offerings at The Hive than this oven ready deal?!
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Post by thevoid on Oct 17, 2020 8:32:57 GMT
I think you're locking the stable door when the horse has bolted with this one 😎 Of course, things have now moved on. No-one is disputing that! However, this doesn’t validate your point about the choices on offer at the last general election! We were told then that more negotiations would cause chaos? You mean just like the chaos Bluffer is inflicting on the country at this minute? An oven ready trade deal? I’ve eaten less burnt offerings at The Hive than this oven ready deal?! I haven't mentioned the 'choices on offer at the last election'. We're discussing the result of the Euro referendum and the fact that these are traditionally run on a one-off basis throughout history, unlike The Ashes. Do try to keep up 😆 Anyway, I'd say that the election result was Hobson's Choice more than anything. Blame the paucity of the opposition rather than the electorate 🙂 PS you don't need to add an exclamation or question mark at the end of EVERY sentence. Over-egging the pudding there a tad!
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Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 17, 2020 10:19:17 GMT
Of course, things have now moved on. No-one is disputing that! However, this doesn’t validate your point about the choices on offer at the last general election! We were told then that more negotiations would cause chaos? You mean just like the chaos Bluffer is inflicting on the country at this minute? An oven ready trade deal? I’ve eaten less burnt offerings at The Hive than this oven ready deal?! I haven't mentioned the 'choices on offer at the last election'. We're discussing the result of the Euro referendum and the fact that these are traditionally run on a one-off basis throughout history, unlike The Ashes. Do try to keep up 😆 Anyway, I'd say that the election result was Hobson's Choice more than anything. Blame the paucity of the opposition rather than the electorate 🙂 PS you don't need to add an exclamation or question mark at the end of EVERY sentence. Over-egging the pudding there a tad! Where’s the evidence referendums that on any one subject they are run only once? On Scotland and Wales devolution they were run twice. There is highly likely to be a future referendum on Scotland independence and even more likely on PR for elections. All this only one referendum in a lifetime on the EU means if you use an 18.year as your benchmark that’s about 60 years? This isn’t democracy it is fascism! Why don’t you have the integrity and decency to admit it? Sieg Heil!
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Post by thevoid on Oct 17, 2020 13:25:22 GMT
I haven't mentioned the 'choices on offer at the last election'. We're discussing the result of the Euro referendum and the fact that these are traditionally run on a one-off basis throughout history, unlike The Ashes. Do try to keep up 😆 Anyway, I'd say that the election result was Hobson's Choice more than anything. Blame the paucity of the opposition rather than the electorate 🙂 PS you don't need to add an exclamation or question mark at the end of EVERY sentence. Over-egging the pudding there a tad! Where’s the evidence referendums that on any one subject they are run only once? On Scotland and Wales devolution they were run twice. There is highly likely to be a future referendum on Scotland independence and even more likely on PR for elections. All this only one referendum in a lifetime on the EU means if you use an 18.year as your benchmark that’s about 60 years? This isn’t democracy it is fascism! Why don’t you have the integrity and decency to admit it? Sieg Heil! We had a referendum in 2016, how often would you like them to be, Nicko? It's a referendum, not X Factor, ergo they're not an annual thing. You need to suck the mop and accept the result like I would have needed to do had we Remained (and I would have done so without whinging on here about it like a petulant child) 😊 Regarding Scottish and Welsh Devo, 1997 was the indeed the second referendum held in both countries over this, the first being 18 years previously. Not two, three or four years. 18. Hope this helps 👍 With regard to the 2016 EU referendum, we had the same amount of referenda as we did in 1975 regarding staying in the bloc- one. So you're quite correct that people's opinions can change, as they did with Celtic devolution and then this. But it's a bit Pythonesque to have another one before we've even left, Nicko 😆 Let's wait a few years and see what happens, hey? Having them more regularly than Ryder Cups is a bit silly, we'd constantly be counting down to referenda and nothing would get done. Additionally, the 1975 referendum was regarding membership of a trading bloc, not closer political union. As such, you could argue that the people didn't know what they were voting for back then 😊 As for your bizarre 'Sieg Heil' thing, I won't dignify that with a reponse apart from this- weren't you the poster who made a personal attack on Angela Smith for voting Tory and then had an extended break from here as you were being tested for dementia? I wouldn't wish that on anyone and I assumed the fact that you'd returned and taken up permanent residence here meant that you'd had the all clear. Well based on some of your postings recently (see above), and the fact that you're losing the thread of conversations, I'd probably try and get another checkup if I were you.
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Post by ColonelMustard on Oct 17, 2020 13:39:45 GMT
On the subject of Starmer, Peter Oborne written a decent piece on him. Despite being a natural conservative he has been one of the most objective voices of recent years.
I cant remember how to do links here though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2020 21:01:22 GMT
On the subject of Starmer, Peter Oborne written a decent piece on him. Despite being a natural conservative he has been one of the most objective voices of recent years. I cant remember how to do links here though. [/
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Post by ColonelMustard on Oct 18, 2020 8:04:04 GMT
On the subject of Starmer, Peter Oborne written a decent piece on him. Despite being a natural conservative he has been one of the most objective voices of recent years. I cant remember how to do links here though. [/ Thats how! With people like yourself prestwich and Oborne, theres hope for this country, yet. Thank you.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Oct 18, 2020 8:27:42 GMT
Not really sure about Starmer, I find it hard to get past his weird voice.. it sounds like he's got a permanent cold.
I've always quite liked Andy Burnham myself and thought he could make a good leader?.. I might be talking out of my arse with that as I don't dig as deeply into politics as most of you, just offering an opinion.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 18, 2020 15:05:07 GMT
Not really sure about Starmer, I find it hard to get past his weird voice.. it sounds like he's got a permanent cold. I've always quite liked Andy Burnham myself and thought he could make a good leader?.. I might be talking out of my arse with that as I don't dig as deeply into politics as most of you, just offering an opinion. I raised him a few days back as potentially making a welcome return to Westminster politics and the Labour front bench. Starmer should seek him out. He's mayor until 2022 in Manchester, however, and would he even want to return? He'd certainly bring the north with him. Starmer would be an unthreatening option to the south, they might get somewhere with that...
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 18, 2020 17:21:13 GMT
Corbyn and brexit was the ultimate catalyst but if you look into this so called red wall in a lot of seats the labour share of the vote had been in decline for years the working class have either left labour or become apathetic in their droves Exactly, the only sniff off a comeback was in 2017. Scotland is all on Blair and Brown, Labour were completely decimated and winning an election without it is tricky..... Why is Scotland all on Blair and Brown?
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 18, 2020 17:28:05 GMT
Not really sure about Starmer, I find it hard to get past his weird voice.. it sounds like he's got a permanent cold. I've always quite liked Andy Burnham myself and thought he could make a good leader?.. I might be talking out of my arse with that as I don't dig as deeply into politics as most of you, just offering an opinion. I raised him a few days back as potentially making a welcome return to Westminster politics and the Labour front bench. Starmer should seek him out. He's mayor until 2022 in Manchester, however, and would he even want to return? He'd certainly bring the north with him. Starmer would be an unthreatening option to the south, they might get somewhere with that... I’m sure Andy Burnham, the Angel of the North, is thinking about nothing other than Manchester. I consider your insinuation that there are potential wider political possibilities a matter of calumny against a principled politician. Next thing you’ll be telling me Nicola Sturgeon no longer has an eye on the prospects for Scottish independence.
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Post by thevoid on Oct 18, 2020 21:41:13 GMT
I guess this is the best thread of any to say this. I've got a weird crush on Lisa Nandy. Am I alone in this?
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Post by vokeswagen on Oct 18, 2020 21:53:25 GMT
I guess this is the best thread of any to say this. I've got a weird crush on Lisa Nandy. Am I alone in this? I stand beside you my brother
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 19, 2020 11:02:08 GMT
I raised him a few days back as potentially making a welcome return to Westminster politics and the Labour front bench. Starmer should seek him out. He's mayor until 2022 in Manchester, however, and would he even want to return? He'd certainly bring the north with him. Starmer would be an unthreatening option to the south, they might get somewhere with that... I’m sure Andy Burnham, the Angel of the North, is thinking about nothing other than Manchester. I consider your insinuation that there are potential wider political possibilities a matter of calumny against a principled politician. Next thing you’ll be telling me Nicola Sturgeon no longer has an eye on the prospects for Scottish independence. Haha, you never know! Burnham pretty quickly jumped ship from Corbyn's Labour Party, having decided to go for Mayor in early 2016. Who knows if he'd be tempted back? Worked for the Bluffer.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2020 15:56:59 GMT
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 21, 2020 16:33:20 GMT
Well that’s not going the way people think
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 21, 2020 16:37:10 GMT
Well that’s not going the way people think Folk like Johnson’s approach to Brexit?
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Post by lordb on Oct 21, 2020 16:47:42 GMT
Amazed Lib Dems still get as much support as they do. As someone who is against Brexit I still wouldn't vote for them. From 2015 election when Corbyn did miles better than everyone (not least May and probably himself) expected and then the referendum saw the Tories move more to the right a competent well lead centrist party should have cleaned up. Instead they have made themselves utterly unelectable.
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 21, 2020 17:05:41 GMT
Well that’s not going the way people think Folk like Johnson’s approach to Brexit? Quite possibly it could also be partly starmers new covid stance with these national shutdowns
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Post by The battheader chronicles on Oct 21, 2020 17:24:56 GMT
I guess this is the best thread of any to say this. I've got a weird crush on Lisa Nandy. Am I alone in this? Something to unite leave and remain, let us leave past arguments behind 😂
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Post by thevoid on Oct 21, 2020 17:50:50 GMT
I guess this is the best thread of any to say this. I've got a weird crush on Lisa Nandy. Am I alone in this? Something to unite leave and remain, let us leave past arguments behind 😂 Fingers crossed, we might see her on Strictly in a year or two 😉
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 21, 2020 17:58:05 GMT
Something to unite leave and remain, let us leave past arguments behind 😂 Fingers crossed, we might see her on Strictly in a year or two 😉 Or Diane?
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