|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 15, 2020 16:52:50 GMT
No one will ever know if Brexit is " right or wrong"....too many variables, perspectives, angles, unknowns if we stayed in / leave....no one can predict the future or what a particular route will involve compared to a different one. The conovirus could not be predicted. Simply the Labour party policy on Brexit did not reflect grassroots opinion.....it seems that " they " got it wrong.....the electorate wanted a party that stood for what they believed....Labour didn't. Nonsense! Labour wanted to negotiate a better deal and put it to the electorate! Look what Bluffer’s oven ready deal looks like? Well 11 months after the general election and we still don’t know! Even Bluffer doesn’t know? All Bluffer did was bounce the electorate into voting for this oven ready deal that didn’t exist? ...and then oppose their own deal!...nonsense. The electorate did not want that , no need for a second referendum.....with the intention to Remain.....so they rejected Labour.....and it seems that some Labour supporters still don't get it...(Caroline Flint got it)
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 15, 2020 18:20:08 GMT
Starmer at it again
If Nye was right, Starmer is Road Runner after a run in with a lorry load of Acme Anvils.
Absolutely indefensible....again.
|
|
|
Post by sheikhmomo on Oct 15, 2020 18:37:28 GMT
Amongst a lot of frightening, dangerous and heinous things, a Labour Leader has just abstained and whipped his party into abstaining against a bill which proposes this
|
|
|
Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 15, 2020 20:00:21 GMT
Nonsense! Labour wanted to negotiate a better deal and put it to the electorate! Look what Bluffer’s oven ready deal looks like? Well 11 months after the general election and we still don’t know! Even Bluffer doesn’t know? All Bluffer did was bounce the electorate into voting for this oven ready deal that didn’t exist? ...and then oppose their own deal!...nonsense. The electorate did not want that , no need for a second referendum.....with the intention to Remain.....so they rejected Labour.....and it seems that some Labour supporters still don't get it...(Caroline Flint got it) The only reason you didn’t want a second referendum is that you were terrified of losing it?! All this sovrinty rubbish is a cover for anti democratic right wingers masquerading as spokesmen and women for Joe Public! In a few weeks time the Americans get to vote on a fraudulent right wing conman and it looks highly likely he will get his arse kicked!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 20:18:59 GMT
It's almost like Brexit and a vicious campaign from the MSM and more shockingly his own PLP did for Corbyn rather than his original manifesto.......... So did Labour get Brexit wrong or did the electorate? Time will tell. Could be both......
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 15, 2020 20:22:25 GMT
So did Labour get Brexit wrong or did the electorate? Time will tell. Could be both...... Not really. You can't predict the future. Labour abysmally failed to understand and represent their traditional vote and as a consequence they have an existential crisis from which they never recover. The electorate chose to leave the EU .
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 15, 2020 20:24:36 GMT
...and then oppose their own deal!...nonsense. The electorate did not want that , no need for a second referendum.....with the intention to Remain.....so they rejected Labour.....and it seems that some Labour supporters still don't get it...(Caroline Flint got it) The only reason you didn’t want a second referendum is that you were terrified of losing it?! All this sovrinty rubbish is a cover for anti democratic right wingers masquerading as spokesmen and women for Joe Public! In a few weeks time the Americans get to vote on a fraudulent right wing conman and it looks highly likely he will get his arse kicked! Not at all. We had a referendum in 2016 and ordinary British people chose to leave the EU. The only reason that you want a second referendum is because you can't accept the first. We have left the EU. Get over it and try backing Britain.
|
|
|
Post by foghornsgleghorn on Oct 15, 2020 20:39:16 GMT
The only reason you didn’t want a second referendum is that you were terrified of losing it?! All this sovrinty rubbish is a cover for anti democratic right wingers masquerading as spokesmen and women for Joe Public! In a few weeks time the Americans get to vote on a fraudulent right wing conman and it looks highly likely he will get his arse kicked! Not at Ll. We had a referendum in 2016 and ordinary British people hose to leave the EU. The only reason that you want a second referendum is because you can't accept the first. We have left the EU. Get over it and try backing Britain. What I see is a nation desperately fighting a Global pandemic but a Government busy trying to set up an internal border for hauliers in Kent and arranging for hundreds of Portaloos for truck drivers who are set to be sitting there. That is the reality of Brexit, but to suggest that scenario is crazy makes one someone who does not back Britain?
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 15, 2020 20:53:17 GMT
Not at Ll. We had a referendum in 2016 and ordinary British people hose to leave the EU. The only reason that you want a second referendum is because you can't accept the first. We have left the EU. Get over it and try backing Britain. What I see is a nation desperately fighting a Global pandemic but a Government busy trying to set up an internal border for hauliers in Kent and arranging for hundreds of Portaloos for truck drivers who are set to be sitting there. That is the reality of Brexit, but to suggest that scenario is crazy makes one someone who does not back Britain? I can't understand what you are saying. Two different isdues. Brexit and the Coronavirus. Every country and person in the world has to come to terms with the virus.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 15, 2020 20:53:54 GMT
Food for thought. Is Labour finished? is it really a fallacy that it actually represents the working class? "Ideologically, Corbynism was a break from New Labour centrism but sociologically, it was more Blairite than Tony Blair. As the Labour MP Jon Cruddas has argued, the Corbyn revolution in the Labour party has narrowed its social base even further, making it the party of young, middle-class southerners, popular in London and some prosperous university towns. A final nail in Labour’s coffin has been Scotland where, for different but not unrelated reasons, the party has lost almost all its seats. The collapse of the Scottish Labour vote over the past decade is one of the great electoral shifts in recent times, making the geographic retrenchment of the party’s vote in England all the more damaging. Labour’s lost working-class voters have gone for good | Chris Bickerton | Opinion | The Guardian www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/19/labour-working-class-voters-brexit
|
|
|
Post by vokeswagen on Oct 15, 2020 20:54:34 GMT
Time will tell. Could be both...... Not really. You can't predict the future. Labour abysmally failed to understand and represent their traditional vote and as a consequence they have an existential crisis from which they never recover. The electorate chose to leave the EU . ”Time will tell“ means essentially the same thing as “you can’t predict the future”, just fyi
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 15, 2020 21:12:47 GMT
Not really. You can't predict the future. Labour abysmally failed to understand and represent their traditional vote and as a consequence they have an existential crisis from which they never recover. The electorate chose to leave the EU . ”Time will tell“ means essentially the same thing as “you can’t predict the future”, just fyi Not at all. People will judge the success or otherwise of Brexit according to different criteria...much of which is based upon their current position. The main issue seems to be...WHO is judging. Completely different concepts fyi.
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Oct 15, 2020 21:13:25 GMT
...and then oppose their own deal!...nonsense. The electorate did not want that , no need for a second referendum.....with the intention to Remain.....so they rejected Labour.....and it seems that some Labour supporters still don't get it...(Caroline Flint got it) The only reason you didn’t want a second referendum is that you were terrified of losing it?! All this sovrinty rubbish is a cover for anti democratic right wingers masquerading as spokesmen and women for Joe Public! In a few weeks time the Americans get to vote on a fraudulent right wing conman and it looks highly likely he will get his arse kicked! A few months ago the British public got to vote on a right wing conman And the left got its arse handed to it on a plate and there bollocks placed in each ear
|
|
|
Post by vokeswagen on Oct 15, 2020 21:16:51 GMT
”Time will tell“ means essentially the same thing as “you can’t predict the future”, just fyi Not at all. People will judge the success or otherwise of Brexit according to different criteria...much of which is based upon their current position. The main issue seems to be...WHO is judging. Completely different concepts fyi. No John, I think you’ll find my post is entirely correct. They mean the same thing. The end
|
|
|
Post by nicholasjalcock on Oct 15, 2020 21:18:12 GMT
The only reason you didn’t want a second referendum is that you were terrified of losing it?! All this sovrinty rubbish is a cover for anti democratic right wingers masquerading as spokesmen and women for Joe Public! In a few weeks time the Americans get to vote on a fraudulent right wing conman and it looks highly likely he will get his arse kicked! A few months ago the British public got to vote on a right wing conman And the left got its arse handed to it on a plate and there bollocks placed in each ear I’m glad you realised he’s a conman? Do you also give your bank details to the Bank of East Nigeria so you can claim your £1,000,000 prize?🙄
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Oct 15, 2020 21:19:20 GMT
Starmer at it again If Nye was right, Starmer is Road Runner after a run in with a lorry load of Acme Anvils. Absolutely indefensible....again. The voice of reason for the left on this board whilst you’re pointing out the fraud starmer is the rest of them are winging over the result of a referendum years ago
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 15, 2020 21:21:25 GMT
Not at all. People will judge the success or otherwise of Brexit according to different criteria...much of which is based upon their current position. The main issue seems to be...WHO is judging. Completely different concepts fyi. No John, I think you’ll find my post is entirely correct. They mean the same thing. The end I don't think that you are right Voke. A different question....given that we have left the EU, in line with the largely working class vote, what do you think that Labour's strategy/ approach/ policy should be? After all this is a thread about remainer Starmer.
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Oct 15, 2020 21:22:49 GMT
A few months ago the British public got to vote on a right wing conman And the left got its arse handed to it on a plate and there bollocks placed in each ear I’m glad you realised he’s a conman? Do you also give your bank details to the Bank of East Nigeria so you can claim your £1,000,000 prize?🙄 No I wanked it up the wall on one of corbyn’s unicorns
|
|
|
Post by vokeswagen on Oct 15, 2020 21:39:45 GMT
No John, I think you’ll find my post is entirely correct. They mean the same thing. The end I don't think that you are right Voke. A different question....given that we have left the EU, in line with the largely working class vote, what do you think that Labour's strategy/ approach/ policy should be? After all this is a thread about remainer Starmer. trust me I am fella. This is basic English. Re: Labour, they’re in a pretty impossible position. There is no approach for them that doesn’t incur huge damage. Damage limitation wise, they have to embrace Brexit but offer a more credible and/or appealing vision of it than the imbeciles in charge. Which isn’t that hard on paper. Except that Boris is very good at making the most lightweight non-policies seem appealing and credible to many voters.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 15, 2020 21:55:58 GMT
I don't think that you are right Voke. A different question....given that we have left the EU, in line with the largely working class vote, what do you think that Labour's strategy/ approach/ policy should be? After all this is a thread about remainer Starmer. trust me I am fella. This is basic English. Re: Labour, they’re in a pretty impossible position. There is no approach for them that doesn’t incur huge damage. Damage limitation wise, they have to embrace Brexit but offer a more credible and/or appealing vision of it than the imbeciles in charge. Which isn’t that hard on paper. Except that Boris is very good at making the most lightweight non-policies seem appealing and credible to many voters. It is basic English. You are wrong. Practically, Labour have no vision of Brexit. Irrespective of Boris.
|
|
|
Post by vokeswagen on Oct 15, 2020 22:00:41 GMT
trust me I am fella. This is basic English. Re: Labour, they’re in a pretty impossible position. There is no approach for them that doesn’t incur huge damage. Damage limitation wise, they have to embrace Brexit but offer a more credible and/or appealing vision of it than the imbeciles in charge. Which isn’t that hard on paper. Except that Boris is very good at making the most lightweight non-policies seem appealing and credible to many voters. It is basic English. You are wrong. Practically, Labour have no vision of Brexit. Irrespective of Boris. Mate I’m not wrong and I’m consistently more grammatically correct than you, so no offence but I’m a higher authority on this than you are I agree that they have no vision of Brexit but equally nor does Boris. It’s to all of our detriments that our leaders are so woeful
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 22:01:19 GMT
Time will tell. Could be both...... Not really. You can't predict the future. Labour abysmally failed to understand and represent their traditional vote and as a consequence they have an existential crisis from which they never recover. The electorate chose to leave the EU . That’s why I said “time will tell” John. Because I’m not trying to predict the future. But thanks for reminding me the electorate chose to leave the EU.....
|
|
|
Post by vokeswagen on Oct 15, 2020 22:05:33 GMT
Not really. You can't predict the future. Labour abysmally failed to understand and represent their traditional vote and as a consequence they have an existential crisis from which they never recover. The electorate chose to leave the EU . That’s why I said “time will tell” John. Because I’m not trying to predict the future. But thanks for reminding me the electorate chose to leave the EU..... For fuck’s sake don’t start him on “time will tell” vs “you can’t predict the future” again, fella
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 15, 2020 22:06:30 GMT
Not really. You can't predict the future. Labour abysmally failed to understand and represent their traditional vote and as a consequence they have an existential crisis from which they never recover. The electorate chose to leave the EU . That’s why I said “time will tell” John. Because I’m not trying to predict the future. But thanks for reminding me the electorate chose to leave the EU..... No problem, it's always worth recalling the basics. Time won't tell on many binary issues. People will have different criteria by which they judge success. You take one road, there's no way of knowing what the other road would have been like. So , the main fact is...we were given a choice and decided to leave the EU ( and of course, some people can't accept that).
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 22:07:50 GMT
Food for thought. Is Labour finished? is it really a fallacy that it actually represents the working class? "Ideologically, Corbynism was a break from New Labour centrism but sociologically, it was more Blairite than Tony Blair. As the Labour MP Jon Cruddas has argued, the Corbyn revolution in the Labour party has narrowed its social base even further, making it the party of young, middle-class southerners, popular in London and some prosperous university towns. A final nail in Labour’s coffin has been Scotland where, for different but not unrelated reasons, the party has lost almost all its seats. The collapse of the Scottish Labour vote over the past decade is one of the great electoral shifts in recent times, making the geographic retrenchment of the party’s vote in England all the more damaging. Labour’s lost working-class voters have gone for good | Chris Bickerton | Opinion | The Guardian www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/19/labour-working-class-voters-brexitAll of the problems you’ve just listed go back way beyond “”Corbynism” (a made up word used to portray a fairly mainstream social democratic manifesto as some kind of cult like propaganda)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 22:10:34 GMT
That’s why I said “time will tell” John. Because I’m not trying to predict the future. But thanks for reminding me the electorate chose to leave the EU..... No problem, it's always worth recalling the basics. Time won't tell on many binary issues. People will have different criteria by which they judge success. You take one road, there's no way of knowing what the other road would have been like. So , the main fact is...we were given a choice and decided to leave the EU ( and of course, some people can't accept that). John as I sit here now on a scale of one to ten my interest in Brexit is about a 3. I’d much rather have a social democratic government out of the EU than a Tory government in it. I’ll happily sit back and watch it unfold......
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 15, 2020 22:14:44 GMT
Food for thought. Is Labour finished? is it really a fallacy that it actually represents the working class? "Ideologically, Corbynism was a break from New Labour centrism but sociologically, it was more Blairite than Tony Blair. As the Labour MP Jon Cruddas has argued, the Corbyn revolution in the Labour party has narrowed its social base even further, making it the party of young, middle-class southerners, popular in London and some prosperous university towns. A final nail in Labour’s coffin has been Scotland where, for different but not unrelated reasons, the party has lost almost all its seats. The collapse of the Scottish Labour vote over the past decade is one of the great electoral shifts in recent times, making the geographic retrenchment of the party’s vote in England all the more damaging. Labour’s lost working-class voters have gone for good | Chris Bickerton | Opinion | The Guardian www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/19/labour-working-class-voters-brexitAll of the problems you’ve just listed go back way beyond “”Corbynism” (a made up word used to portray a fairly mainstream social democratic manifesto as some kind of cult like propaganda) Yes , I agree with that, they do go pre- Corbyn. Labour has been struggling for a few years. Unfortunately due to his personal history, his leadership and the party's position on the most important contemporary political issue,Brexit, the gulf between the working class and the party was confirmed....so they voted for Boris. Corbyn certainly did not improve things.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 22:17:48 GMT
All of the problems you’ve just listed go back way beyond “”Corbynism” (a made up word used to portray a fairly mainstream social democratic manifesto as some kind of cult like propaganda) Yes , I agree with that, they do go pre- Corbyn. Labour has been struggling for a few years. Unfortunately due to his personal history, his leadership and the party's position on the most important contemporary political issue,Brexit, the gulf between the working class and the party was confirmed....so they voted for Boris. Corbyn certainly did not improve things. He improved things massively up until Brexit. It was and was always going to be his downfall. If people want to appraise Corbyn’s reign without taking into account the bile from the mainstream media and the appalling behaviour of a section of the PLP then they’re being disingenuous.....
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 15, 2020 22:22:53 GMT
No problem, it's always worth recalling the basics. Time won't tell on many binary issues. People will have different criteria by which they judge success. You take one road, there's no way of knowing what the other road would have been like. So , the main fact is...we were given a choice and decided to leave the EU ( and of course, some people can't accept that). John as I sit here now on a scale of one to ten my interest in Brexit is about a 3. I’d much rather have a social democratic government out of the EU than a Tory government in it. I’ll happily sit back and watch it unfold...... Brexit is not party political but is a fundamental issue for the country. It WAS about democracy...part of social democracy. Brexit is a major reason why Labour is in the wilderness...so all those other " important issues" have been left to the Tories. it's not my decision but that of the electorate.
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Oct 15, 2020 22:26:21 GMT
Yes , I agree with that, they do go pre- Corbyn. Labour has been struggling for a few years. Unfortunately due to his personal history, his leadership and the party's position on the most important contemporary political issue,Brexit, the gulf between the working class and the party was confirmed....so they voted for Boris. Corbyn certainly did not improve things. He improved things massively up until Brexit. It was and was always going to be his downfall. If people want to appraise Corbyn’s reign without taking into account the bile from the mainstream media and the appalling behaviour of a section of the PLP then they’re being disingenuous..... People did appraise his performance in the ballot box. Unfortunately all politicians have to deal with the media. Farage for example has had to deal with years of abuse. A party divided will always have difficulties.
|
|