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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 3, 2024 18:33:49 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 3, 2024 19:01:35 GMT
So the Labour Party is not representative of " the Left" , perhaps never has been.
So what's the way forward for the Left, instead of just moaning?
The Communist Party?
The Social Democrats?( that sounds good)
Any positive ideas, because Labour is not going to change to the Left in any of our lifetimes , even the 45 year old youngsters.
Momentum is a continuation of Militant Tendency, when I was a member of the party.
We've had some great insight into what's wrong..... any vision or suggestions of what could be right?
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Post by gawa on Jun 3, 2024 19:11:54 GMT
Yeah somebody might ask him if he's going to reinstate Labours commitment to a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty? To which'll he'll say after 14 years of Tory chaos it's clear that it will benefit the British people so it will be front and centre and funded from clamping down on non-Dom tax avoidance. You may well be right, I have no idea 🤷 If he has nothing to gain from appearing, which is how it seems, he might have thought 'why bother'. I'm not defending him, just putting a theory forward 🙂 Hope you're voting green for the policies on the green mate. Rather than labour who want to tackle down on anti social behaviour I.e. cannabis users.
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Post by gawa on Jun 3, 2024 19:13:37 GMT
"He's going through the entire campaign basically saying nothing, yet will still win a landslide victory" I think you may have answered your own question there, from his POV why risk messing up when you don't have to? Basically what Johnson did in 2019 as well. And many of us criticised him for. Some people change their tune when it's labour doing it though.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2024 19:20:36 GMT
So the Labour Party is not representative of " the Left" , perhaps never has been. So what's the way forward for the Left, instead of just moaning? The Communist Party? The Social Democrats?( that sounds good) Any positive ideas, because Labour is not going to change to the Left in any of our lifetimes , even the 45 year old youngsters. Momentum is a continuation of Militant Tendency, when I was a member of the party. We've had some great insight into what's wrong..... any vision or suggestions of what could be right? I 100% believe that a great opportunity was missed today. The public are so tired of the Tory govt. I don’t think that the public really want to vote Labour either but many will do so because there isn’t much hope of someone else coming in. If Corbyn had come out alongside Farrage today and said: “We don’t agree on much, but we do agree that the establishment of Labour/Tory ineptitude needs to go. Nigel will lead Reform and I will lead the Social Democrats party…..” If that was said, I believe that voter turnout would be excellent and while Labour still may have got in, it would have been a slim majority. At present, Sunak can argue that “a vote for Reform is a vote for Labour”. It’s a shit defense that highlights how weak he is. However, it’s still true. I think that Corbyn et al have played it safe and in doing so, have let the public down.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 3, 2024 19:27:57 GMT
So the Labour Party is not representative of " the Left" , perhaps never has been. So what's the way forward for the Left, instead of just moaning? The Communist Party? The Social Democrats?( that sounds good) Any positive ideas, because Labour is not going to change to the Left in any of our lifetimes , even the 45 year old youngsters. Momentum is a continuation of Militant Tendency, when I was a member of the party. We've had some great insight into what's wrong..... any vision or suggestions of what could be right? I 100% believe that a great opportunity was missed today. The public are so tired of the Tory govt. I don’t think that the public really want to vote Labour either but many will do so because there isn’t much hope of someone else coming in. If Corbyn had come out alongside Farrage today and said: “We don’t agree on much, but we do agree that the establishment of Labour/Tory ineptitude needs to go. Nigel will lead Reform and I will lead the Social Democrats party…..” If that was said, I believe that voter turnout would be excellent and while Labour still may have got in, it would have been a slim majority. At present, Sunak can argue that “a vote for Reform is a vote for Labour”. It’s a shit defense that highlights how weak he is. However, it’s still true. I think that Corbyn et al have played it safe and in doing so, have let the public down. Cville , I think that is brilliant insight, I would never have thought of that....we need to change the system or NOTHING will change, the vulnerable will continue to get shafted.....unfortunately the " Left" at heart just want to play it safe, from their comfortable existence..... no courage for REAL change. As you were!
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Post by elystokie on Jun 3, 2024 19:34:19 GMT
You may well be right, I have no idea 🤷 If he has nothing to gain from appearing, which is how it seems, he might have thought 'why bother'. I'm not defending him, just putting a theory forward 🙂 Hope you're voting green for the policies on the green mate. Rather than labour who want to tackle down on anti social behaviour I.e. cannabis users. Of course 🙂 Not just the green, they have a sensible attitude towards all drugs. I saw a quote from Starmer saying cannabis ruins lives. He was probably drinking a pint when he said it 🤦
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Post by gawa on Jun 3, 2024 19:44:48 GMT
So the Labour Party is not representative of " the Left" , perhaps never has been. So what's the way forward for the Left, instead of just moaning? The Communist Party? The Social Democrats?( that sounds good) Any positive ideas, because Labour is not going to change to the Left in any of our lifetimes , even the 45 year old youngsters. Momentum is a continuation of Militant Tendency, when I was a member of the party. We've had some great insight into what's wrong..... any vision or suggestions of what could be right? Workers Party and Green party are the only parties on the left with enough support to put up any form of challenge. For this election a success would be: - Uptake in support for Green/Independants/Workers Party - SNP not losing too many seats - Enough momentum in battle ground seats for people to potentially vote elsewhere next election. If you're on the left I don't think there's much to be inspired about in the upcoming election - I'm not. Theoretically is it possible for parties to form a coalition opposition? With Lib Dem support I think there are enough potential candidates and parties on the left to form a greater minority then the tories. That would be a success. Not sure if possible however, doubt it. Longer term Workers/Green/Independants/SNP may need to come to some sort of agreement on seats to challenge as I think that is going to be costly in this election. Too many small parties and independants splitting the left wing vote. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see how us enter martial law in a couple years time with the way things are going. In which case this could be our last election for quite a bit of time. Fingers crossed that won't happen.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 3, 2024 19:50:53 GMT
So the Labour Party is not representative of " the Left" , perhaps never has been. So what's the way forward for the Left, instead of just moaning? The Communist Party? The Social Democrats?( that sounds good) Any positive ideas, because Labour is not going to change to the Left in any of our lifetimes , even the 45 year old youngsters. Momentum is a continuation of Militant Tendency, when I was a member of the party. We've had some great insight into what's wrong..... any vision or suggestions of what could be right? Workers Party and Green party are the only parties on the left with enough support to put up any form of challenge. For this election a success would be: - Uptake in support for Green/Independants/Workers Party - SNP not losing too many seats - Enough momentum in battle ground seats for people to potentially vote elsewhere next election. If you're on the left I don't think there's much to be inspired about in the upcoming election - I'm not. Theoretically is it possible for parties to form a coalition opposition? With Lib Dem support I think there are enough potential candidates and parties on the left to form a greater minority then the tories. That would be a success. Not sure if possible however, doubt it. Longer term Workers/Green/Independants/SNP may need to come to some sort of agreement on seats to challenge as I think that is going to be costly in this election. Too many small parties and independants splitting the left wing vote. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see how us enter martial law in a couple years time with the way things are going. In which case this could be our last election for quite a bit of time. Fingers crossed that won't happen. In my opinion GAWA, the only hope the Left or ordinary people have is to..... Change the political system.... By one means or another. Anything else is to give approval to the status quo Which has inbuilt injustice within it But it would take courage.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jun 3, 2024 19:54:06 GMT
I think it's quite unfair of you to accuse me of misrepresenting you and rewriting history considering you've been challenged multiple times on editing the message I replied to, to make it look worse. When challenged you continually just ignore that - and now I'm the person rewriting history. You antagonised the situation. I don't agree on the Al Jazeera bit but better to just draw a line under it all. I think the USA also has alot of influence on uk politics. And if you were to disagree with that then religion wouldnt come onto it. Israel is accountable for its actions, having a state religion of Judaism has no bearing on that. In terms of Tommy Robinson - I believe he is paid to stir up hate. There have been leaks of him receiving large sums from powerful people and considering he never works... Laurence Fox is another one. A failed actor starting his own political party and getting 5 million in donations from Crystal Palace owner. Guys not worked for ages and is constantly getting fines in court for various offenses but seems to live a comfortable lifestyle stirring stuff on twitter. Gideon Falter another one who has been caught out purposely stirring up trouble and lives a cushy life. I'm sorry for arguing and reacting badly but personally I think antisemitism gets weaponised and it's quite convenient that suddenly everyone is an antisemite when Israel commits war crimes. Religion has no bearing on my opinions. FWIW, I don't think he remotely deserves a reply with such good grace from yourself. Astonishing that you felt the need to apologise to him, when it is actually you that has been consistently wronged throughout the entire exchange. Fair play. I didn’t realise the level of your shit stirring on here.
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Post by gawa on Jun 3, 2024 19:56:32 GMT
So the Labour Party is not representative of " the Left" , perhaps never has been. So what's the way forward for the Left, instead of just moaning? The Communist Party? The Social Democrats?( that sounds good) Any positive ideas, because Labour is not going to change to the Left in any of our lifetimes , even the 45 year old youngsters. Momentum is a continuation of Militant Tendency, when I was a member of the party. We've had some great insight into what's wrong..... any vision or suggestions of what could be right? I 100% believe that a great opportunity was missed today. The public are so tired of the Tory govt. I don’t think that the public really want to vote Labour either but many will do so because there isn’t much hope of someone else coming in. If Corbyn had come out alongside Farrage today and said: “We don’t agree on much, but we do agree that the establishment of Labour/Tory ineptitude needs to go. Nigel will lead Reform and I will lead the Social Democrats party…..” If that was said, I believe that voter turnout would be excellent and while Labour still may have got in, it would have been a slim majority. At present, Sunak can argue that “a vote for Reform is a vote for Labour”. It’s a shit defense that highlights how weak he is. However, it’s still true. I think that Corbyn et al have played it safe and in doing so, have let the public down. Corbyn led a fantastic campaign but was smeared the moment he began to get traction. If he started a party today the same smear campaign would come out against him and any potential candidates too. You're up against the media, the establishment and the other parties. Farage stood down over half his candidates when corbyn was in charge. Went from challenging nearly every seat and getting 4 million votes to getting around 600k votes. Now corbyns gone he's back. I'm not sure how sincere he is when he complains about the duopoly as he is chummy with alot of tories. But people like him and so he deserves a seat, just not quite so sure he's as opposed to Labour/Tory as he says. For arguments sake though, I think a coalition with them both, and assuming they are genuine with their goals, could potentially provide a happy medium and good balance. Unfortunately I don't think I could see it happening. Edit: It would have been a bloody brilliant shake up if it did happen though. I'd support it. But yeh just don't think it would:/
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jun 3, 2024 20:00:58 GMT
FWIW, I don't think he remotely deserves a reply with such good grace from yourself. Astonishing that you felt the need to apologise to him, when it is actually you that has been consistently wronged throughout the entire exchange. Fair play. I didn’t realise the level of your shit stirring on here. It's not shit stirring, it's my honest opinion. I think you've behaved abysmally. And you're extremely fortunate that gawa has acted with such decorum.
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Post by andystokey on Jun 3, 2024 20:12:03 GMT
Workers Party and Green party are the only parties on the left with enough support to put up any form of challenge. For this election a success would be: - Uptake in support for Green/Independants/Workers Party - SNP not losing too many seats - Enough momentum in battle ground seats for people to potentially vote elsewhere next election. If you're on the left I don't think there's much to be inspired about in the upcoming election - I'm not. Theoretically is it possible for parties to form a coalition opposition? With Lib Dem support I think there are enough potential candidates and parties on the left to form a greater minority then the tories. That would be a success. Not sure if possible however, doubt it. Longer term Workers/Green/Independants/SNP may need to come to some sort of agreement on seats to challenge as I think that is going to be costly in this election. Too many small parties and independants splitting the left wing vote. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see how us enter martial law in a couple years time with the way things are going. In which case this could be our last election for quite a bit of time. Fingers crossed that won't happen. In my opinion GAWA, the only hope the Left or ordinary people have is to..... Change the political system.... By one means or another. Anything else is to give approval to the status quo Which has inbuilt injustice within it But it would take courage. Wouldn't the democratic way to be change the party manifesto via the NEC? Or is that now a busted flush?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 3, 2024 20:23:02 GMT
In my opinion GAWA, the only hope the Left or ordinary people have is to..... Change the political system.... By one means or another. Anything else is to give approval to the status quo Which has inbuilt injustice within it But it would take courage. Wouldn't the democratic way to be change the party manifesto via the NEC? Or is that now a busted flush? I can't see it ever happening to satisfy the left though , Andy
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Post by andystokey on Jun 3, 2024 20:26:03 GMT
Wouldn't the democratic way to be change the party manifesto via the NEC? Or is that now a busted flush? I can't see it ever happening to satisfy the left though , Andy You asked what we could do. I suggest pushing any button for PR is step one, I think in as many and varied ways it is one way forward.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 3, 2024 20:31:25 GMT
I can't see it ever happening to satisfy the left though , Andy You asked what we could do. I suggest pushing any button for PR is step one, I think in as many and varied ways it is one way forward. But which party offers this?
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Post by andystokey on Jun 3, 2024 20:34:47 GMT
You asked what we could do. I suggest pushing any button for PR is step one, I think in as many and varied ways it is one way forward. But which party offers this? We should subvert them all until they accede.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 3, 2024 21:03:00 GMT
I 100% believe that a great opportunity was missed today. The public are so tired of the Tory govt. I don’t think that the public really want to vote Labour either but many will do so because there isn’t much hope of someone else coming in. If Corbyn had come out alongside Farrage today and said: “We don’t agree on much, but we do agree that the establishment of Labour/Tory ineptitude needs to go. Nigel will lead Reform and I will lead the Social Democrats party…..” If that was said, I believe that voter turnout would be excellent and while Labour still may have got in, it would have been a slim majority. At present, Sunak can argue that “a vote for Reform is a vote for Labour”. It’s a shit defense that highlights how weak he is. However, it’s still true. I think that Corbyn et al have played it safe and in doing so, have let the public down. Cville , I think that is brilliant insight, I would never have thought of that....we need to change the system or NOTHING will change, the vulnerable will continue to get shafted.....unfortunately the " Left" at heart just want to play it safe, from their comfortable existence..... no courage for REAL change. As you were! "The left" "the left" "the left" What are YOU doing to stop the vulnerable getting shafted from your comfortable existence John?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 3, 2024 21:11:46 GMT
Cville , I think that is brilliant insight, I would never have thought of that....we need to change the system or NOTHING will change, the vulnerable will continue to get shafted.....unfortunately the " Left" at heart just want to play it safe, from their comfortable existence..... no courage for REAL change. As you were! "The left" "the left" "the left" What are YOU doing to stop the vulnerable getting shafted from your comfortable existence John? I'm not a political party. I might be doing as much as you, but perhaps don't talk about bit. You are as critical of everything as much as anyone else on here, without offering solutions. I understand your frustration. I seem to touch a nerve with you, if I mention the 'Left',the Left',the 'Left'... I think it is because the ' left' is going nowhere.
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Post by andystokey on Jun 3, 2024 21:25:02 GMT
"The left" "the left" "the left" What are YOU doing to stop the vulnerable getting shafted from your comfortable existence John? I'm not a political party. I might be doing as much as you, but perhaps don't talk about bit. You are as critical of everything as much as anyone else on here, without offering solutions. I understand your frustration. I seem to touch a nerve with you, if I mention the 'Left',the Left',the 'Left'... I think it is because the ' left' is going nowhere. I think this left right stuff is all a bit old hat label anyhow. We are all progressive activists,Civic Pragmatists, Disengaged Battlers, Established Liberals, Loyal Nationals, Disengaged Traditionalists and Backbone Conservatives. I guess being a wonky eyed progressive activist just doesn't have the same ring to it.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 3, 2024 21:25:25 GMT
"The left" "the left" "the left" What are YOU doing to stop the vulnerable getting shafted from your comfortable existence John? I'm not a political party. I might be doing as much as you, but perhaps don't talk about bit. You are as critical of everything as much as anyone else on here, without offering solutions. I understand your frustration. I seem to touch a nerve with you, if I mention the 'Left',the Left',the 'Left'... I think it is because the ' left' is going nowhere. I'm not a political party either funnily enough. But I've given (my) solutions on here on many occasions as have many other people and we've even interacted with one other, we've delved into PR, talked about breakaway left and right wing parties to shake up the status quo as well as other things. I'm neither frustrated nor have you touched a nerve, more amused by the fact that you keep regurgitating the same old stuff to be honest...............
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 3, 2024 21:26:07 GMT
So the Labour Party is not representative of " the Left" , perhaps never has been. So what's the way forward for the Left, instead of just moaning? The Communist Party? The Social Democrats?( that sounds good) Any positive ideas, because Labour is not going to change to the Left in any of our lifetimes , even the 45 year old youngsters. Momentum is a continuation of Militant Tendency, when I was a member of the party. We've had some great insight into what's wrong..... any vision or suggestions of what could be right? The hard rump of Militant is now the TUSC and the Socialist Party John.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 3, 2024 21:26:33 GMT
I'm not a political party. I might be doing as much as you, but perhaps don't talk about bit. You are as critical of everything as much as anyone else on here, without offering solutions. I understand your frustration. I seem to touch a nerve with you, if I mention the 'Left',the Left',the 'Left'... I think it is because the ' left' is going nowhere. I think this left right stuff is all a bit old hat label anyhow. We are all progressive activists,Civic Pragmatists, Disengaged Battlers, Established Liberals, Loyal Nationals, Disengaged Traditionalists and Backbone Conservatives. I guess being a wonky eyed progressive activist just doesn't have the same ring to it. There's about half a dozen people on here who constantly bring the conversation back to "the left" and "the right" Old hat is putting it mildly.......
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 3, 2024 21:29:16 GMT
I'm not a political party. I might be doing as much as you, but perhaps don't talk about bit. You are as critical of everything as much as anyone else on here, without offering solutions. I understand your frustration. I seem to touch a nerve with you, if I mention the 'Left',the Left',the 'Left'... I think it is because the ' left' is going nowhere. I'm not a political party either funnily enough. But I've given (my) solutions on here on many occasions as have many other people and we've even interacted with one other, we've delved into PR, talked about breakaway left and right wing parties to shake up the status quo as well as other things. I'm neither frustrated nor have you touched a nerve, more amused by the fact that you keep regurgitating the same old stuff to be honest............... Just frustrated with the Left, as the greatest let down of ordinary working class people. Possibly one of the major problems with UK politics. Most of us regurgitate the same repetitive stuff on here, you included, so I would not be so judgemental, just ignore my posts. That's probably why I , and others don't post so much
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 3, 2024 21:30:21 GMT
So the Labour Party is not representative of " the Left" , perhaps never has been. So what's the way forward for the Left, instead of just moaning? The Communist Party? The Social Democrats?( that sounds good) Any positive ideas, because Labour is not going to change to the Left in any of our lifetimes , even the 45 year old youngsters. Momentum is a continuation of Militant Tendency, when I was a member of the party. We've had some great insight into what's wrong..... any vision or suggestions of what could be right? The hard rump of Militant is now the TUSC and the Socialist Party John. I've ceased following it so closely Paul so I am sure you are right
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 3, 2024 21:38:38 GMT
I'm not a political party either funnily enough. But I've given (my) solutions on here on many occasions as have many other people and we've even interacted with one other, we've delved into PR, talked about breakaway left and right wing parties to shake up the status quo as well as other things. I'm neither frustrated nor have you touched a nerve, more amused by the fact that you keep regurgitating the same old stuff to be honest............... Just frustrated with the Left, as the greatest let down of ordinary working class people. Possibly one of the major problems with UK politics. Most of us regurgitate the same repetitive stuff on here, you included, so I would not be so judgemental, just ignore my posts. That's probably why I , and others don't post so much Working class people are let down by the system as a whole (including their own party and representatives), it's easy for people to blame the left whilst their politics drifts further to the right though I suppose. And you post plenty often on here John.......
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 3, 2024 21:42:52 GMT
Just frustrated with the Left, as the greatest let down of ordinary working class people. Possibly one of the major problems with UK politics. Most of us regurgitate the same repetitive stuff on here, you included, so I would not be so judgemental, just ignore my posts. That's probably why I , and others don't post so much Working class people are let down by the system as a whole (including their own party and representatives), it's easy for people to blame the left whilst their politics drifts further to the right though I suppose. And you post plenty often on here John....... The " Left" have failed the working class. ( or those who think they are on the Left). Thank you very much.....many people don't post as much as they would like , because they get the same repetitive abuse.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 3, 2024 21:48:46 GMT
Working class people are let down by the system as a whole (including their own party and representatives), it's easy for people to blame the left whilst their politics drifts further to the right though I suppose. And you post plenty often on here John....... The " Left" have failed the working class. ( or those who think they are on the Left). Thank you very much.....many people don't post as much as they would like , because they get the same repetitive abuse. You'd have to take that up with these so-called abusers John. May I suggest the block function for anyone you feel has overstepped the mark.......
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 3, 2024 21:53:49 GMT
The " Left" have failed the working class. ( or those who think they are on the Left). Thank you very much.....many people don't post as much as they would like , because they get the same repetitive abuse. You'd have to take that up with these so-called abusers John. May I suggest the block function for anyone you feel has overstepped the mark....... I've no need to block anyone Ian, never have, it's just a message board, no harm possible. Mind you, if my references to the left hit a nerve, you could always block me.................
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 3, 2024 22:28:32 GMT
You'd have to take that up with these so-called abusers John. May I suggest the block function for anyone you feel has overstepped the mark....... I've no need to block anyone Ian, never have, it's just a message board, no harm possible. Mind you, if my references to the left hit a nerve, you could always block me................. Excellent, if it's just a harmless message board there's no need to not post then is there. Happy days........
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