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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 26, 2020 8:29:22 GMT
That’s right Joe, I don’t remember too much use of the word ‘cheating’ when Michael Owen’s blatant dive ‘won’ a penalty against the Argies in a subsequent World Cup. BM Pochetino hacked him down Not in 1998 he didn't.
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Post by supersimonstainrod on Mar 26, 2020 9:18:46 GMT
That’s right Joe, I don’t remember too much use of the word ‘cheating’ when Michael Owen’s blatant dive ‘won’ a penalty against the Argies in a subsequent World Cup. BM Pochetino hacked him down That was 2002 I think? Owen won the penalty in the game against the Argies in '98 cutting across a player in the box. Hoddle didn't help the perception that it was a soft penalty by afterwards revealing that he'd encouraged Owen to look to go to ground if the opportunity arose?
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Post by werrington on Mar 26, 2020 9:21:18 GMT
Pochetino hacked him down That was 2002 I think? Owen won the penalty in the game against the Argies in '98 cutting across a player in the box. Hoddle didn't help the perception that it was a soft penalty by afterwards revealing that he'd encouraged Owen to look to go to ground if the opportunity arose? Pochetino was in Sapporo 2002 I thought that was the one joe was on about
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 26, 2020 9:34:38 GMT
That was 2002 I think? Owen won the penalty in the game against the Argies in '98 cutting across a player in the box. Hoddle didn't help the perception that it was a soft penalty by afterwards revealing that he'd encouraged Owen to look to go to ground if the opportunity arose? Pochetino was in Sapporo 2002 I thought that was the one joe was on about Owen was mint at that. Ran across and teased the foul from him. Collina wasn’t phased and did his job. Beckhams penno was crap really but they al count. England didn’t get the credit we deserved for that. We beat the tournament favourites. One of my favourite England games.
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Post by BristolMick on Mar 26, 2020 17:16:54 GMT
Pochetino was in Sapporo 2002 I thought that was the one joe was on about Owen was mint at that. Ran across and teased the foul from him. Collina wasn’t phased and did his job. Beckhams penno was crap really but they al count. England didn’t get the credit we deserved for that. We beat the tournament favourites. One of my favourite England games. Unfortunately I remember little of the details for that game as me and my buddies were so nervous about the game that we sank 4 pints in the first half and another 4 in the second watching it in a pub. BM
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Post by werrington on Mar 26, 2020 17:30:55 GMT
Owen was mint at that. Ran across and teased the foul from him. Collina wasn’t phased and did his job. Beckhams penno was crap really but they al count. England didn’t get the credit we deserved for that. We beat the tournament favourites. One of my favourite England games. Unfortunately I remember little of the details for that game as me and my buddies were so nervous about the game that we sank 4 pints in the first half and another 4 in the second watching it in a pub. BM That game kicked off at 10am BST 😂
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 19:29:19 GMT
Owen was mint at that. Ran across and teased the foul from him. Collina wasn’t phased and did his job. Beckhams penno was crap really but they al count. England didn’t get the credit we deserved for that. We beat the tournament favourites. One of my favourite England games. Unfortunately I remember little of the details for that game as me and my buddies were so nervous about the game that we sank 4 pints in the first half and another 4 in the second watching it in a pub. BM Yet people say is a game of two halves. Shows what they know
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Post by BristolMick on Mar 26, 2020 20:17:45 GMT
Unfortunately I remember little of the details for that game as me and my buddies were so nervous about the game that we sank 4 pints in the first half and another 4 in the second watching it in a pub. BM Yet people say is a game of two halves. Shows what they know Well the second half was a bit more hazy than the first. BM
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Post by lordb on Mar 26, 2020 20:22:26 GMT
Pochetino was in Sapporo 2002 I thought that was the one joe was on about Owen was mint at that. Ran across and teased the foul from him. Collina wasn’t phased and did his job. Beckhams penno was crap really but they al count. England didn’t get the credit we deserved for that. We beat the tournament favourites. One of my favourite England games. England never get the credit they deserve Beating one of the favourites, barely mentioned. See Colombia 2018 Before the tournament they were everyone's favourite dark horse, afterwards we beat 'nobody'.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 20:44:30 GMT
Owen was mint at that. Ran across and teased the foul from him. Collina wasn’t phased and did his job. Beckhams penno was crap really but they al count. England didn’t get the credit we deserved for that. We beat the tournament favourites. One of my favourite England games. England never get the credit they deserve Beating one of the favourites, barely mentioned. See Colombia 2018 Before the tournament they were everyone's favourite dark horse, afterwards we beat 'nobody'. Columbia? We're a decent side but not sure everyone's dark horses, I think if Columbia had tried to play football rather than resort to those tactics they could have gone to the semis. Many fancied Croatia
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Mar 26, 2020 21:59:08 GMT
I love the footage of him getting kicked to bits and still keeping going. That dogged determination not to be stopped. Even in the wonder goal against England he gets absolutely clattered but still scored the best goal ever. The most incredible balance and low centre of gravity ever. Better even than Messi in that respect. He was an artist on a football pitch. Sublime. Grainy footage to say the least,but some of the attempts to stop him are ludicrous: I've seen a clip of Maradona getting scythed down and continuing after the ball on his hands and knees,such was his will to retain possession,can't find it now unfortunately. The first fifteen seconds of that video show the strength and skill of the man. Not old enough to have seem him on TV let alone live, would be interested to know if any posters saw him live? not read the full thread. One of those players that if I could go back in time to just Watch them play one match I would. See Sir stan, Banksy, Pele to name a few.
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Post by werrington on Mar 27, 2020 17:57:03 GMT
Here he is v Scotland
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Post by werrington on Mar 27, 2020 20:31:01 GMT
And another .....I remember this game think Maradona was only 17/18
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2020 22:19:50 GMT
Let's not forget that Dennis Wise scored a winner v Turkey in the Euros in 1991 with his hand. Ruined Turkey's chance of Euro qualification and their chance to do a Greece and claim the trophy. Poor old Maradona gets abuse years later but our Turkish cousins would no doubt welcome a documentary on Dennis Wise without the hatred. He always reminded me of TV character Bod, why does no one ever talk about 'The hand of Bod' but hate Maradona for one cheeky goal?
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 27, 2020 22:36:16 GMT
That was the first time I'd heard of him. There was a big report in the Sunday Mirror and they said the whole of Hampden gave him a big ovation at the end.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2020 22:51:18 GMT
That was the first time I'd heard of him. There was a big report in the Sunday Mirror and they said the whole of Hampden gave him a big ovation at the end. Very impressive from Luque and Maradona but Arthur Graham stealing the show there with his sublime finish past Fillol. Edit...just noticed that's our good pal Pat Partridge as well
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Post by metalhead on Apr 1, 2020 10:25:57 GMT
It's shyte when English people bang on about the hand of god. In reality we seemed to have one plan in that game and it was the same as everybody else's which was to kick Maradona out of the game. It didn't work for us like it didn't work for anyone else. In reality we'd hardly got out of our own half until then. The most damaging legacy of the hand of god is it was the start of England being knocked out of tournaments and clinging to grievances. The only reason I go on about the Hand of God goal Joe,is even tho' Maradona used his hand,how the f*ck did Shilton let a midget outjump him? 😉 I fully expect to get a kicking here, but it's just my personal opinion... and a friendly one at that. I was born in 1990, so I have no emotional connection to the 1986 world cup and I'm fairly confident that had I lived through it, my feelings would be different... I have always taken a dim view on England and our view of the 'Hand of God'. We developed a bit of a victim mentality over it... How the fuck did a man the size of a pint glass outjump a 6ft goalkeeper who likes to describe himself as the 'greatest' of all time...? Yes Maradona flew past England players on the way to scoring the greatest World Cup goal of all time, but my word Terry Fenwick (and Peter Reid) made it easier for him. We should take some responsibility in that regard. You also have a linesman and referee who blamed each other, but at least accepted their mistakes. I have a lot more dislike for Urs Meier who arrogantly refused to accept his awful mistake in Euro 2004. As for Maradona himself, I have a soft spot for him. Football is as game of R/evolution. When you watch clips from the 60's to the 70's, the difference is huge. Team tactics, defensive skills (going from hatchet men to footballers), individual player techniques and dribbling skills were still changing and improving. I think the advent of better football equipment such as specialist footballs and boots allowed players to strike the ball with improved technique and carry the ball close to the feet, with pace. I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but 1960's football still had roots in the more primitive game with low quality and improvised equipment and shit football pitches. It remains just my opinion that even the best footballers from the 1960's would have massively struggled in the 1980's. 1970's football is a marked improvement, with better football equipment, and the technical side took a huge leap and pitches that weren't akin to your local park etc... you have players like Ricky Villa appearing on the scene, who's dribbling ability (from clips) is miles ahead of some of the best in the 60's (say... Bobby Charlton). So where am I going with all this opinionated shite? and why am I talking about 1960's football.... So it's kind of my opinion and again, born in 1990... might be wrong, that with football being a game of evolution and revolution, the 'modern game' was revolutionised in the 1980's and has since evolved rather (better fitness equipment/practices and diet, further improvements of health equipment etc). The Copa Mundial boots were invented in 1982... you can still buy them to this day. The Tango football 1978 which most would accept is the first football that was engineered rather than just being.... a ball... you can also still buy it. Proper GK gloves that weren't just gardening gloves.... football became the game we experience today in the 1980's. Top level pitches from the 1980's are near enough as good as pitches today etc.... So really, when we talk about say Sir Stan or Bobby Charlton ripping up the Premier League... I think we're being a bit romantic and wishful. Same with Geoff Hurst, Jimmy Greaves and... dare I say it? Pele. Maradona on the other hand, played football in what is essentially the modern derivative of the game.... in an era that still allowed him to get smashed to pieces by hatchet defenders thanks to refereeing incompetence (and slack rules), had less advanced fitness equipment and where tactics although very close to what we play today, were still being tweaked and tarted up. Much like I'm in no doubt that a 1990 Gazza would walk into any top team, I am in no doubt that Maradona 1986 would be one of the top players in the world in 2020.
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Post by AlliG on Apr 1, 2020 10:46:46 GMT
The only reason I go on about the Hand of God goal Joe,is even tho' Maradona used his hand,how the f*ck did Shilton let a midget outjump him? 😉 I fully expect to get a kicking here, but it's just my personal opinion... and a friendly one at that. I was born in 1990, so I have no emotional connection to the 1986 world cup and I'm fairly confident that had I lived through it, my feelings would be different... I have always taken a dim view on England and our view of the 'Hand of God'. We developed a bit of a victim mentality over it... How the fuck did a man the size of a pint glass outjump a 6ft goalkeeper who likes to describe himself as the 'greatest' of all time...? Yes Maradona flew past England players on the way to scoring the greatest World Cup goal of all time, but my word Terry Fenwick (and Peter Reid) made it easier for him. We should take some responsibility in that regard. You also have a linesman and referee who blamed each other, but at least accepted their mistakes. I have a lot more dislike for Urs Meier who arrogantly refused to accept his awful mistake in Euro 2004. As for Maradona himself, I have a soft spot for him. Football is as game of R/evolution. When you watch clips from the 60's to the 70's, the difference is huge. Team tactics, defensive skills (going from hatchet men to footballers), individual player techniques and dribbling skills were still changing and improving. I think the advent of better football equipment such as specialist footballs and boots allowed players to strike the ball with improved technique and carry the ball close to the feet, with pace. I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but 1960's football still had roots in the more primitive game with low quality and improvised equipment and shit football pitches. It remains just my opinion that even the best footballers from the 1960's would have massively struggled in the 1980's. 1970's football is a marked improvement, with better football equipment, and the technical side took a huge leap and pitches that weren't akin to your local park etc... you have players like Ricky Villa appearing on the scene, who's dribbling ability (from clips) is miles ahead of some of the best in the 60's (say... Bobby Charlton). So where am I going with all this opinionated shite? and why am I talking about 1960's football.... So it's kind of my opinion and again, born in 1990... might be wrong, that with football being a game of evolution and revolution, the 'modern game' was revolutionised in the 1980's and has since evolved rather (better fitness equipment/practices and diet, further improvements of health equipment etc). The Copa Mundial boots were invented in 1982... you can still buy them to this day. The Tango football 1978 which most would accept is the first football that was engineered rather than just being.... a ball... you can also still buy it. Proper GK gloves that weren't just gardening gloves.... football became the game we experience today in the 1980's. Top level pitches from the 1980's are near enough as good as pitches today etc.... So really, when we talk about say Sir Stan or Bobby Charlton ripping up the Premier League... I think we're being a bit romantic and wishful. Same with Geoff Hurst, Jimmy Greaves and... dare I say it? Pele. Maradona on the other hand, played football in what is essentially the modern derivative of the game.... in an era that still allowed him to get smashed to pieces by hatchet defenders thanks to refereeing incompetence (and slack rules), had less advanced fitness equipment and where tactics although very close to what we play today, were still being tweaked and tarted up. Much like I'm in no doubt that a 1990 Gazza would walk into any top team, I am in no doubt that Maradona 1986 would be one of the top players in the world in 2020. Wouldn't the 1960s players have also benefited from the improved training methods, nutrition, playing surfaces etc?
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Post by metalhead on Apr 1, 2020 11:11:55 GMT
I fully expect to get a kicking here, but it's just my personal opinion... and a friendly one at that. I was born in 1990, so I have no emotional connection to the 1986 world cup and I'm fairly confident that had I lived through it, my feelings would be different... I have always taken a dim view on England and our view of the 'Hand of God'. We developed a bit of a victim mentality over it... How the fuck did a man the size of a pint glass outjump a 6ft goalkeeper who likes to describe himself as the 'greatest' of all time...? Yes Maradona flew past England players on the way to scoring the greatest World Cup goal of all time, but my word Terry Fenwick (and Peter Reid) made it easier for him. We should take some responsibility in that regard. You also have a linesman and referee who blamed each other, but at least accepted their mistakes. I have a lot more dislike for Urs Meier who arrogantly refused to accept his awful mistake in Euro 2004. As for Maradona himself, I have a soft spot for him. Football is as game of R/evolution. When you watch clips from the 60's to the 70's, the difference is huge. Team tactics, defensive skills (going from hatchet men to footballers), individual player techniques and dribbling skills were still changing and improving. I think the advent of better football equipment such as specialist footballs and boots allowed players to strike the ball with improved technique and carry the ball close to the feet, with pace. I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but 1960's football still had roots in the more primitive game with low quality and improvised equipment and shit football pitches. It remains just my opinion that even the best footballers from the 1960's would have massively struggled in the 1980's. 1970's football is a marked improvement, with better football equipment, and the technical side took a huge leap and pitches that weren't akin to your local park etc... you have players like Ricky Villa appearing on the scene, who's dribbling ability (from clips) is miles ahead of some of the best in the 60's (say... Bobby Charlton). So where am I going with all this opinionated shite? and why am I talking about 1960's football.... So it's kind of my opinion and again, born in 1990... might be wrong, that with football being a game of evolution and revolution, the 'modern game' was revolutionised in the 1980's and has since evolved rather (better fitness equipment/practices and diet, further improvements of health equipment etc). The Copa Mundial boots were invented in 1982... you can still buy them to this day. The Tango football 1978 which most would accept is the first football that was engineered rather than just being.... a ball... you can also still buy it. Proper GK gloves that weren't just gardening gloves.... football became the game we experience today in the 1980's. Top level pitches from the 1980's are near enough as good as pitches today etc.... So really, when we talk about say Sir Stan or Bobby Charlton ripping up the Premier League... I think we're being a bit romantic and wishful. Same with Geoff Hurst, Jimmy Greaves and... dare I say it? Pele. Maradona on the other hand, played football in what is essentially the modern derivative of the game.... in an era that still allowed him to get smashed to pieces by hatchet defenders thanks to refereeing incompetence (and slack rules), had less advanced fitness equipment and where tactics although very close to what we play today, were still being tweaked and tarted up. Much like I'm in no doubt that a 1990 Gazza would walk into any top team, I am in no doubt that Maradona 1986 would be one of the top players in the world in 2020. Wouldn't the 1960s players have also benefited from the improved training methods, nutrition, playing surfaces etc? I'm talking about taking a player 'as-is' and dropping them into a modern team, so you've kind of missed my point... The top-level game changed dramatically in the 70's/80's and in my opinion, no, a world class 60's player, with 60's style technique and all would struggle in the modern game, regardless of the nutritional benefits and training methods. It has a lot to do with the primitive pitches and football equipment that was available at the time. That all changed in the late 70's and massively in the 80's. Maradona's technique abilities are very much comparable to players in the modern game. Bobby Charlton's abilities are very much honed to football of the 60's, which in my opinion doesn't resemble modern football anywhere near as closely. Again, this is all an opinion piece and I'm still waiting to be told I'm some kind of cunt
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 1, 2020 11:15:46 GMT
Wouldn't the 1960s players have also benefited from the improved training methods, nutrition, playing surfaces etc? I'm talking about taking a player 'as-is' and dropping them into a modern team, so you've kind of missed my point... The top-level game changed dramatically in the 70's/80's and in my opinion, no, a world class 60's player, with 60's style technique and all would struggle in the modern game, regardless of the nutritional benefits and training methods. It has a lot to do with the primitive pitches and football equipment that was available at the time. That all changed in the late 70's and massively in the 80's. Maradona's technique abilities are very much comparable to players in the modern game. Bobby Charlton's abilities are very much honed to football of the 60's, which in my opinion doesn't resemble modern football anywhere near as closely. Again, this is all an opinion piece and I'm still waiting to be told I'm some kind of cunt I see what you’re saying. But we can only rationally Assess players in the context of their own eras.
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Post by metalhead on Apr 1, 2020 11:32:34 GMT
I'm talking about taking a player 'as-is' and dropping them into a modern team, so you've kind of missed my point... The top-level game changed dramatically in the 70's/80's and in my opinion, no, a world class 60's player, with 60's style technique and all would struggle in the modern game, regardless of the nutritional benefits and training methods. It has a lot to do with the primitive pitches and football equipment that was available at the time. That all changed in the late 70's and massively in the 80's. Maradona's technique abilities are very much comparable to players in the modern game. Bobby Charlton's abilities are very much honed to football of the 60's, which in my opinion doesn't resemble modern football anywhere near as closely. Again, this is all an opinion piece and I'm still waiting to be told I'm some kind of cunt I see what you’re saying. But we can only rationally Assess players in the context of their own eras. Why? It's all hypothetical and I see no harm in suggesting that in the context of the modern game, Maradona is probably one of greatest of all time and would have had no trouble in the modern game and been up there with the Ronaldo's and Messi's.... we are probably at the end of of football's technical peak. When you look at football now and say 20 years ago, the differences are barely noticeable. 30 years ago... barely noticeable... it takes some 40 years before the logarithmic curve of progress begins to resemble actual noticeable differences. Let me give you another example, most on the EE board know I'm a keen guitarist and musician. Look at guitar playing and technique from the 30's up to 80's. I know I'm fully opening myself up to some abuse here, but Jimi Hendrix is a bit like a Bobby Charlton of music. In his era, he was utterly stunning, but nowadays, Hendrix' technique and general playing ability would be considered, well, fairly ordinary. Heck, his playing was pretty obsolete by the early 70's when you compare to some of the players around that time, which is why I cringe when people say he's the greatest guitarist of all time. Really, he was more like the most influential guitarist of all time.... because his playing changed the way guitar was seen and used. Similar to 80's football though, guitar playing saw huge changes during the 70's and even more during the 80's and the introduction of the 'modern era' of guitar playing... superior 'technical' musicians like Yngwie Malmsteen, Michael Angelo Batio, Satriani etc (one genre I know)... it's the same reason guys like Brian May really don't hold up against the technical virtuoso's. Since the late 80s then, there hasn't been the technical leaps that took place in the years before that... so a bit like football, the technique curve kind of hit it's peak, again, in the 80's. There are plenty of stunning young guitar players now, but a lot of the technique is derived from guitar players in the 80s, which is why... not hampered by athletic atrophy like footballers are, many of the best 80's players are still at the top of the game now. It's called exponential plateau.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 1, 2020 11:57:36 GMT
I see what you’re saying. But we can only rationally Assess players in the context of their own eras. Why? It's all hypothetical and I see no harm in suggesting that in the context of the modern game, Maradona is probably one of greatest of all time and would have had no trouble in the modern game and been up there with the Ronaldo's and Messi's.... we are probably at the end of of football's technical peak. When you look at football now and say 20 years ago, the differences are barely noticeable. 30 years ago... barely noticeable... it takes some 40 years before the logarithmic curve of progress begins to resemble actual noticeable differences. Let me give you another example, most on the EE board know I'm a keen guitarist and musician. Look at guitar playing and technique from the 30's up to 80's. I know I'm fully opening myself up to some abuse here, but Jimi Hendrix is a bit like a Bobby Charlton of music. In his era, he was utterly stunning, but nowadays, Hendrix' technique and general playing ability would be considered, well, fairly ordinary. Heck, his playing was pretty obsolete by the early 70's when you compare to some of the players around that time, which is why I cringe when people say he's the greatest guitarist of all time. Really, he was more like the most influential guitarist of all time.... because his playing changed the way guitar was seen and used. Similar to 80's football though, guitar playing saw huge changes during the 70's and even more during the 80's and the introduction of the 'modern era' of guitar playing... superior 'technical' musicians like Yngwie Malmsteen, Michael Angelo Batio, Satriani etc (one genre I know)... it's the same reason guys like Brian May really don't hold up against the technical virtuoso's. Since the late 80s then, there hasn't been the technical leaps that took place in the years before that... so a bit like football, the technique curve kind of hit it's peak, again, in the 80's. There are plenty of stunning young guitar players now, but a lot of the technique is derived from guitar players in the 80s, which is why... not hampered by athletic atrophy like footballers are, many of the best 80's players are still at the top of the game now. It's called exponential plateau. But the challenges a player negotiates are the challenges of the era they’re in. Or a player would be called shit because they couldn’t handle what’s coming in ten years 😀😀. I agree Maradona could cross eras. Not many could. George Best at his peak perhaps? We’ll never know for sure.
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Post by metalhead on Apr 1, 2020 14:19:52 GMT
Why? It's all hypothetical and I see no harm in suggesting that in the context of the modern game, Maradona is probably one of greatest of all time and would have had no trouble in the modern game and been up there with the Ronaldo's and Messi's.... we are probably at the end of of football's technical peak. When you look at football now and say 20 years ago, the differences are barely noticeable. 30 years ago... barely noticeable... it takes some 40 years before the logarithmic curve of progress begins to resemble actual noticeable differences. Let me give you another example, most on the EE board know I'm a keen guitarist and musician. Look at guitar playing and technique from the 30's up to 80's. I know I'm fully opening myself up to some abuse here, but Jimi Hendrix is a bit like a Bobby Charlton of music. In his era, he was utterly stunning, but nowadays, Hendrix' technique and general playing ability would be considered, well, fairly ordinary. Heck, his playing was pretty obsolete by the early 70's when you compare to some of the players around that time, which is why I cringe when people say he's the greatest guitarist of all time. Really, he was more like the most influential guitarist of all time.... because his playing changed the way guitar was seen and used. Similar to 80's football though, guitar playing saw huge changes during the 70's and even more during the 80's and the introduction of the 'modern era' of guitar playing... superior 'technical' musicians like Yngwie Malmsteen, Michael Angelo Batio, Satriani etc (one genre I know)... it's the same reason guys like Brian May really don't hold up against the technical virtuoso's. Since the late 80s then, there hasn't been the technical leaps that took place in the years before that... so a bit like football, the technique curve kind of hit it's peak, again, in the 80's. There are plenty of stunning young guitar players now, but a lot of the technique is derived from guitar players in the 80s, which is why... not hampered by athletic atrophy like footballers are, many of the best 80's players are still at the top of the game now. It's called exponential plateau. But the challenges a player negotiates are the challenges of the era they’re in. Or a player would be called shit because they couldn’t handle what’s coming in ten years 😀😀. I agree Maradona could cross eras. Not many could. George Best at his peak perhaps? We’ll never know for sure. Oh absolutely but with exponential plateau, once you've hit that peak, the curve flatlines. You've effectively hit the limits, certainly from a football perspective. What happened after the 80's and certainly the 90's and 00's was the new era... the era of the athletes.... starting with the likes of Roy Keane etc. The Ronaldo's are merely mixing the virtuoso skill levels with the modern athleticism. Hence revolutionary vs evolutionary... football went from a game of skilful pissheads to proper athletes and that's where Gazza's ability would be relevant, but his lifestyle not. Since Maradona.... you've had few that possessed superior close control and skill.... Ronaldo? Messi? Anomalies rather than the norm. Your average left winger isn't beating players in the style of Ronaldo 12 years ago, just like they aren't beating players like Maradona was 35 years ago.... However, your average left winger probably does have comparable (and probably better) technique and close control to some of those in the 50's and 60's because the techniques hadn't been mastered. A lot of it comes down stretching the boundaries of the human body + the football equipment used + pitches. Shit pitches were always an inhibiting factor to some of the more skilful players. You mentioned Best, it astounds me how well he was able to run with a ball on a pitch that was utter dog shit, but even he had to accommodate the fact the ball simply didn't run smoothly like it does today.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2020 21:02:26 GMT
The only reason I go on about the Hand of God goal Joe,is even tho' Maradona used his hand,how the f*ck did Shilton let a midget outjump him? 😉 I fully expect to get a kicking here, but it's just my personal opinion... and a friendly one at that. I was born in 1990, so I have no emotional connection to the 1986 world cup and I'm fairly confident that had I lived through it, my feelings would be different... I have always taken a dim view on England and our view of the 'Hand of God'. We developed a bit of a victim mentality over it... How the fuck did a man the size of a pint glass outjump a 6ft goalkeeper who likes to describe himself as the 'greatest' of all time...? Yes Maradona flew past England players on the way to scoring the greatest World Cup goal of all time, but my word Terry Fenwick (and Peter Reid) made it easier for him. We should take some responsibility in that regard. You also have a linesman and referee who blamed each other, but at least accepted their mistakes. I have a lot more dislike for Urs Meier who arrogantly refused to accept his awful mistake in Euro 2004. As for Maradona himself, I have a soft spot for him. Football is as game of R/evolution. When you watch clips from the 60's to the 70's, the difference is huge. Team tactics, defensive skills (going from hatchet men to footballers), individual player techniques and dribbling skills were still changing and improving. I think the advent of better football equipment such as specialist footballs and boots allowed players to strike the ball with improved technique and carry the ball close to the feet, with pace. I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but 1960's football still had roots in the more primitive game with low quality and improvised equipment and shit football pitches. It remains just my opinion that even the best footballers from the 1960's would have massively struggled in the 1980's. 1970's football is a marked improvement, with better football equipment, and the technical side took a huge leap and pitches that weren't akin to your local park etc... you have players like Ricky Villa appearing on the scene, who's dribbling ability (from clips) is miles ahead of some of the best in the 60's (say... Bobby Charlton). So where am I going with all this opinionated shite? and why am I talking about 1960's football.... So it's kind of my opinion and again, born in 1990... might be wrong, that with football being a game of evolution and revolution, the 'modern game' was revolutionised in the 1980's and has since evolved rather (better fitness equipment/practices and diet, further improvements of health equipment etc). The Copa Mundial boots were invented in 1982... you can still buy them to this day. The Tango football 1978 which most would accept is the first football that was engineered rather than just being.... a ball... you can also still buy it. Proper GK gloves that weren't just gardening gloves.... football became the game we experience today in the 1980's. Top level pitches from the 1980's are near enough as good as pitches today etc.... So really, when we talk about say Sir Stan or Bobby Charlton ripping up the Premier League... I think we're being a bit romantic and wishful. Same with Geoff Hurst, Jimmy Greaves and... dare I say it? Pele. Maradona on the other hand, played football in what is essentially the modern derivative of the game.... in an era that still allowed him to get smashed to pieces by hatchet defenders thanks to refereeing incompetence (and slack rules), had less advanced fitness equipment and where tactics although very close to what we play today, were still being tweaked and tarted up. Much like I'm in no doubt that a 1990 Gazza would walk into any top team, I am in no doubt that Maradona 1986 would be one of the top players in the world in 2020. Totally agree with you re Geoff Hurst as was never in the same class as the other you've mentioned. He's one of the biggest critics of modern football but a recent study showed that he would last a total of 6 to 8 minutes fitness wise in the modern game. Was in no way a great great player Could never stand his arrogance and obviously lived on that day. As someone has said, nutrition, training etc would play a huge part, looking back at say Match of the 70s, the physical shape of players is so different than today as players are built like athletes now. Best, Maradona, Pele had natural skill and would have been of any era for me. I don't buy into the when football was football and how much better it was i the old days that you constantly read on You Tube etc, it's of its time. Like with old grounds and most things, back then they was great according to many which of course they weren't.
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Post by spitthedog on Apr 1, 2020 22:43:37 GMT
Grainy footage to say the least,but some of the attempts to stop him are ludicrous: I've seen a clip of Maradona getting scythed down and continuing after the ball on his hands and knees,such was his will to retain possession,can't find it now unfortunately. The first fifteen seconds of that video show the strength and skill of the man. Not old enough to have seem him on TV let alone live, would be interested to know if any posters saw him live? not read the full thread. One of those players that if I could go back in time to just Watch them play one match I would. See Sir stan, Banksy, Pele to name a few. I was lucky enough to see him live in that game at Wembley. I think it was only his 3rd or 4th game for Argentina. Id never heard of him, but everyone was stunned by his skills tbh. I have no hesitation in saying he's the best player I ever saw live, and I've seen Pele, Rivellino, Cruyff, Ronaldo, Best and Greaves and many more greats too.
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Post by metalhead on Apr 2, 2020 3:01:46 GMT
I fully expect to get a kicking here, but it's just my personal opinion... and a friendly one at that. I was born in 1990, so I have no emotional connection to the 1986 world cup and I'm fairly confident that had I lived through it, my feelings would be different... I have always taken a dim view on England and our view of the 'Hand of God'. We developed a bit of a victim mentality over it... How the fuck did a man the size of a pint glass outjump a 6ft goalkeeper who likes to describe himself as the 'greatest' of all time...? Yes Maradona flew past England players on the way to scoring the greatest World Cup goal of all time, but my word Terry Fenwick (and Peter Reid) made it easier for him. We should take some responsibility in that regard. You also have a linesman and referee who blamed each other, but at least accepted their mistakes. I have a lot more dislike for Urs Meier who arrogantly refused to accept his awful mistake in Euro 2004. As for Maradona himself, I have a soft spot for him. Football is as game of R/evolution. When you watch clips from the 60's to the 70's, the difference is huge. Team tactics, defensive skills (going from hatchet men to footballers), individual player techniques and dribbling skills were still changing and improving. I think the advent of better football equipment such as specialist footballs and boots allowed players to strike the ball with improved technique and carry the ball close to the feet, with pace. I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but 1960's football still had roots in the more primitive game with low quality and improvised equipment and shit football pitches. It remains just my opinion that even the best footballers from the 1960's would have massively struggled in the 1980's. 1970's football is a marked improvement, with better football equipment, and the technical side took a huge leap and pitches that weren't akin to your local park etc... you have players like Ricky Villa appearing on the scene, who's dribbling ability (from clips) is miles ahead of some of the best in the 60's (say... Bobby Charlton). So where am I going with all this opinionated shite? and why am I talking about 1960's football.... So it's kind of my opinion and again, born in 1990... might be wrong, that with football being a game of evolution and revolution, the 'modern game' was revolutionised in the 1980's and has since evolved rather (better fitness equipment/practices and diet, further improvements of health equipment etc). The Copa Mundial boots were invented in 1982... you can still buy them to this day. The Tango football 1978 which most would accept is the first football that was engineered rather than just being.... a ball... you can also still buy it. Proper GK gloves that weren't just gardening gloves.... football became the game we experience today in the 1980's. Top level pitches from the 1980's are near enough as good as pitches today etc.... So really, when we talk about say Sir Stan or Bobby Charlton ripping up the Premier League... I think we're being a bit romantic and wishful. Same with Geoff Hurst, Jimmy Greaves and... dare I say it? Pele. Maradona on the other hand, played football in what is essentially the modern derivative of the game.... in an era that still allowed him to get smashed to pieces by hatchet defenders thanks to refereeing incompetence (and slack rules), had less advanced fitness equipment and where tactics although very close to what we play today, were still being tweaked and tarted up. Much like I'm in no doubt that a 1990 Gazza would walk into any top team, I am in no doubt that Maradona 1986 would be one of the top players in the world in 2020. Totally agree with you re Geoff Hurst as was never in the same class as the other you've mentioned. He's one of the biggest critics of modern football but a recent study showed that he would last a total of 6 to 8 minutes fitness wise in the modern game. Was in no way a great great player Could never stand his arrogance and obviously lived on that day. As someone has said, nutrition, training etc would play a huge part, looking back at say Match of the 70s, the physical shape of players is so different than today as players are built like athletes now. Best, Maradona, Pele had natural skill and would have been of any era for me. I don't buy into the when football was football and how much better it was i the old days that you constantly read on You Tube etc, it's of its time. Like with old grounds and most things, back then they was great according to many which of course they weren't. There's very much a mentality that older is always better. Older cars were better than newer cars. Older football was better than newer football. Older mobile phones were better than newer ones. Reality check, you wouldn't dream of swapping that reliable Honda Accord parked on your drive for that god awful Austin Ambassador with a talking dash. An average 60s professional footballer would most likely be poor footballer in the modern day. Nobody in their right mind would go back to a Nokia 3210 just because the battery lasted for 3 days and you could throw it at a wall without smashing it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 4:05:21 GMT
Wouldn't the 1960s players have also benefited from the improved training methods, nutrition, playing surfaces etc? I'm talking about taking a player 'as-is' and dropping them into a modern team, so you've kind of missed my point... The top-level game changed dramatically in the 70's/80's and in my opinion, no, a world class 60's player, with 60's style technique and all would struggle in the modern game, regardless of the nutritional benefits and training methods. It has a lot to do with the primitive pitches and football equipment that was available at the time. That all changed in the late 70's and massively in the 80's. Maradona's technique abilities are very much comparable to players in the modern game. Bobby Charlton's abilities are very much honed to football of the 60's, which in my opinion doesn't resemble modern football anywhere near as closely. Again, this is all an opinion piece and I'm still waiting to be told I'm some kind of cunt I hate hate Geoff Hurst...he really is a c$nt
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Post by blackpoolred on Apr 2, 2020 7:19:11 GMT
I see what you’re saying. But we can only rationally Assess players in the context of their own eras. Why? It's all hypothetical and I see no harm in suggesting that in the context of the modern game, Maradona is probably one of greatest of all time and would have had no trouble in the modern game and been up there with the Ronaldo's and Messi's.... we are probably at the end of of football's technical peak. When you look at football now and say 20 years ago, the differences are barely noticeable. 30 years ago... barely noticeable... it takes some 40 years before the logarithmic curve of progress begins to resemble actual noticeable differences. Let me give you another example, most on the EE board know I'm a keen guitarist and musician. Look at guitar playing and technique from the 30's up to 80's. I know I'm fully opening myself up to some abuse here, but Jimi Hendrix is a bit like a Bobby Charlton of music. In his era, he was utterly stunning, but nowadays, Hendrix' technique and general playing ability would be considered, well, fairly ordinary. Heck, his playing was pretty obsolete by the early 70's when you compare to some of the players around that time, which is why I cringe when people say he's the greatest guitarist of all time. Really, he was more like the most influential guitarist of all time.... because his playing changed the way guitar was seen and used. Similar to 80's football though, guitar playing saw huge changes during the 70's and even more during the 80's and the introduction of the 'modern era' of guitar playing... superior 'technical' musicians like Yngwie Malmsteen, Michael Angelo Batio, Satriani etc (one genre I know)... it's the same reason guys like Brian May really don't hold up against the technical virtuoso's. Since the late 80s then, there hasn't been the technical leaps that took place in the years before that... so a bit like football, the technique curve kind of hit it's peak, again, in the 80's. There are plenty of stunning young guitar players now, but a lot of the technique is derived from guitar players in the 80s, which is why... not hampered by athletic atrophy like footballers are, many of the best 80's players are still at the top of the game now. It's called exponential plateau. I think our Stan was the ultimate Chameleon was he not - playing across 5 decades. He was light years ahead of his time in terms of fitness and diet and had a burst of pace over 5 yards that would leave many a modern day player on their backs - he would have no problem playing in any era. I once saw our very own Hudson, who played the majority of his career in the 60/70's come on as a sub for 20 mins against Leeds in 1985 and tear them to shreds without even breaking into canter. I would like to have seen a lot of these modern day footballers - who fall on the floor and roll around like they have been shot if anybody goes within a yard of them - playing in eras gone by - trying to play with a ball with laces in it, on awful pitches while getting lumps kicked out of them - a lot of them would not have cut the mustard. Regarding guitar, Django Reinhardt was technically better than anybody on the planet before and after him and he only had the use of a few fingers - and he died in 1953 - music has been going backwards for centuries.
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Post by metalhead on Apr 2, 2020 13:38:49 GMT
Why? It's all hypothetical and I see no harm in suggesting that in the context of the modern game, Maradona is probably one of greatest of all time and would have had no trouble in the modern game and been up there with the Ronaldo's and Messi's.... we are probably at the end of of football's technical peak. When you look at football now and say 20 years ago, the differences are barely noticeable. 30 years ago... barely noticeable... it takes some 40 years before the logarithmic curve of progress begins to resemble actual noticeable differences. Let me give you another example, most on the EE board know I'm a keen guitarist and musician. Look at guitar playing and technique from the 30's up to 80's. I know I'm fully opening myself up to some abuse here, but Jimi Hendrix is a bit like a Bobby Charlton of music. In his era, he was utterly stunning, but nowadays, Hendrix' technique and general playing ability would be considered, well, fairly ordinary. Heck, his playing was pretty obsolete by the early 70's when you compare to some of the players around that time, which is why I cringe when people say he's the greatest guitarist of all time. Really, he was more like the most influential guitarist of all time.... because his playing changed the way guitar was seen and used. Similar to 80's football though, guitar playing saw huge changes during the 70's and even more during the 80's and the introduction of the 'modern era' of guitar playing... superior 'technical' musicians like Yngwie Malmsteen, Michael Angelo Batio, Satriani etc (one genre I know)... it's the same reason guys like Brian May really don't hold up against the technical virtuoso's. Since the late 80s then, there hasn't been the technical leaps that took place in the years before that... so a bit like football, the technique curve kind of hit it's peak, again, in the 80's. There are plenty of stunning young guitar players now, but a lot of the technique is derived from guitar players in the 80s, which is why... not hampered by athletic atrophy like footballers are, many of the best 80's players are still at the top of the game now. It's called exponential plateau. I think our Stan was the ultimate Chameleon was he not - playing across 5 decades. He was light years ahead of his time in terms of fitness and diet and had a burst of pace over 5 yards that would leave many a modern day player on their backs - he would have no problem playing in any era. I once saw our very own Hudson, who played the majority of his career in the 60/70's come on as a sub for 20 mins against Leeds in 1985 and tear them to shreds without even breaking into canter. I would like to have seen a lot of these modern day footballers - who fall on the floor and roll around like they have been shot if anybody goes within a yard of them - playing in eras gone by - trying to play with a ball with laces in it, on awful pitches while getting lumps kicked out of them - a lot of them would not have cut the mustard. Regarding guitar, Django Reinhardt was technically better than anybody on the planet before and after him and he only had the use of a few fingers - and he died in 1953 - music has been going backwards for centuries. Stan was light years ahead of his generation. What he did was exceptional.... but it's now considered normal, if not an expectation laid down pretty early on to young footballers. While I agree the first part of your statement, as soon as you resort to "I'd like to see these modern day footballers".... I always think, well hold on, how would a 60's defender cope against a skilful modern player less prone to taking a dive... a Ricardo Fuller, a Peter Hoekstra, a Robbie Fowler considering their superior technique compared to players of their age. I have actually alluded to the fact in earlier posts that part of the reason we saw such progress and as such hit an exponential plateau, certainly technique wise is down to the significant investment in football-specific equipment during the 70's and 80's. There is only so much you can physically achieve with football boots akin to a set of WW2 army boots. Fontball was a less technically advanced game back in the 60's.... and it remains my opinion that the advancement of the game hit the current era in the 80's. As for Django Reinhardt, lol.... sorry mate, you're romanticising it. It's fair to say his guitar playing abilities roughly represent that of a very very good physically limited player. He is nowhere near as skilled technically (I'm thinking vibrato etc) than a Yngwie or a Satriani. A lot the technical side of guitar playing hit that ceiling in the 80's and there were very few before it that really came close. If you want your anomaly.... Albert Lee - Country Boy. Absolutely outrageous technique and before the days of the super technical players.
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Post by richardparker on Apr 2, 2020 14:41:38 GMT
I see what you’re saying. But we can only rationally Assess players in the context of their own eras. Why? It's all hypothetical and I see no harm in suggesting that in the context of the modern game, Maradona is probably one of greatest of all time and would have had no trouble in the modern game and been up there with the Ronaldo's and Messi's.... we are probably at the end of of football's technical peak. When you look at football now and say 20 years ago, the differences are barely noticeable. 30 years ago... barely noticeable... it takes some 40 years before the logarithmic curve of progress begins to resemble actual noticeable differences. Let me give you another example, most on the EE board know I'm a keen guitarist and musician. Look at guitar playing and technique from the 30's up to 80's. I know I'm fully opening myself up to some abuse here, but Jimi Hendrix is a bit like a Bobby Charlton of music. In his era, he was utterly stunning, but nowadays, Hendrix' technique and general playing ability would be considered, well, fairly ordinary. Heck, his playing was pretty obsolete by the early 70's when you compare to some of the players around that time, which is why I cringe when people say he's the greatest guitarist of all time. Really, he was more like the most influential guitarist of all time.... because his playing changed the way guitar was seen and used. Similar to 80's football though, guitar playing saw huge changes during the 70's and even more during the 80's and the introduction of the 'modern era' of guitar playing... superior 'technical' musicians like Yngwie Malmsteen, Michael Angelo Batio, Satriani etc (one genre I know)... it's the same reason guys like Brian May really don't hold up against the technical virtuoso's. Since the late 80s then, there hasn't been the technical leaps that took place in the years before that... so a bit like football, the technique curve kind of hit it's peak, again, in the 80's. There are plenty of stunning young guitar players now, but a lot of the technique is derived from guitar players in the 80s, which is why... not hampered by athletic atrophy like footballers are, many of the best 80's players are still at the top of the game now. It's called exponential plateau. I'm fully with you on the view that Maradona would quite easily make the grade in today's game. I personally believe he would surpass Messi and Ronaldo into the bargain. I'm quite interested in your reference to music as a comparison. Whilst footballing legends return to the stage as past has-beens and charge a fiver to get in to a charity match, music legends fill arenas and stadiums at costs upwards of 80 quid. (This btw is a masiive bug-bear to me as I am a big champion of new music and am eternally shocked people will pay £100 to watch a fraud like Phil Collins and then wince at paying a tiny fraction of that to see something fresh and current). As far as Hendrix goes, for me he is still the best guitarist that ever graced this planet. Don't forget for one minute the innovator he was. His experimentation with reverb and feedback has practically shaped rock music for the past 50 years and will continue to do so as long as people plug in an electric guitar. His short solo in Hey Joe packs more feeling, emotion and wizardry into 10 seconds than most guitarists achieve in a lifetime of virtuosity. There'd quite simply be no Michael Angelo Batio or the like, without Jimi Hendrix! Ultimately, I don't believe music and football to be such a good comparison. I can see the point you are trying to make ... but you lost me when you said Hendrix is the Bobby Charlton of music!
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