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Post by tachyon on Mar 8, 2020 10:39:20 GMT
We have a player ratings system that looks at a variety of performance indicators, ranging from expected goals and assist to ball progression (moving the ball into dangerous areas of the field, regardless of any subsequent outcome) and tackles and interceptions that deprive the opposition of dangerous possession. These are amalgamated and normalised to a score out of ten to align to traditional player ratings. Most 201920 season Stoke players have played a decent sized sample of games under Jones and MON, so I've plotted their game averages to see firstly if there's been a general improvement under MON (there has) and which players have benefitted most from playing under the current manager.  Under Jones the average player rating was 6.39, that has risen to 6.54 under MON. For comparison, Leeds' ave player rating is 6.77, Preston's, a playoff type team is 6.4 and bottom club, Luton's is 6.2. So under Jones, whatever the results say, and in line with many xG tables, we were a borderline playoff team. Under MON we are a solid playoff team, but short of being an automatic contender. Looking at individual players, McClean, Clucas, Vokes, Ince and Powell have upped their game under MON (although Powell had few opportunities under Jones). Most significantly, JB has been much less error prone under MON. He is currently in the top 30% of keepers, under Jones he was in the bottom 5% and a real burden. We don't do "Player of the Week" awards, but if we did, it's going to take something very special in the remaining game to deny Nick Powell. |
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Post by iglugluk on Mar 8, 2020 10:42:32 GMT
Interesting stuff, thanks
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 8, 2020 10:43:46 GMT
Not this bollocks about being a play off side under Jones again.
Seriously 😂😂
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Mar 8, 2020 11:06:50 GMT
Obviously the fullbacks, Smith and Bruno, were more suited to the diamond! 🙄
Jones was just unlucky! If he fell into a tub of tit's he'd come up sucking his thumb! 🐇
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Post by tachyon on Mar 8, 2020 11:37:52 GMT
Not this bollocks about being a play off side under Jones again. Seriously 😂😂 Yep more of this stuff. File it under "B" for B*ll*cks, along with "We'll be out of the bottom three by Christmas" when we had one point 😂 |
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Post by potterpaul on Mar 8, 2020 11:40:03 GMT
I don't always take much notice of these things but the one thing that does stand out is that the player closest to the bang average is Joe Allen, not often stats mirror your perspective.
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Post by maninasuitcase on Mar 8, 2020 11:47:40 GMT
This season under MON our home record is played 11 won 7 drawn 2 lost 2
Under Jones it was won 1 drawn 1 lost 6.
Thats an astonishing turn around given our shocking record prior to his arrival.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 11:48:34 GMT
Interesting that nearly all of the players better under O'Neill are the experienced ones.
They just didn't take to Jones and their performances mirrored it.
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Mar 8, 2020 11:53:43 GMT
One thing that confirms is Jordan Cousins is actually wank regardless of the manager
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Post by followyoudown on Mar 8, 2020 12:06:12 GMT
Not this bollocks about being a play off side under Jones again. Seriously 😂😂 Actually they would have been a play off team under Jones only problem is it would have been next year and Division 1....... |
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Post by leicspotter on Mar 8, 2020 12:54:25 GMT
Not this bollocks about being a play off side under Jones again. Seriously 😂😂 It just shows that football is a team game, players can do good things, individually, but unless the team / system is working it can all add up to 10% of sweet fa. Team stats under Jones were often quite good...but the key ingredient were missing...goals and clean sheets  |
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Post by maninasuitcase on Mar 8, 2020 13:02:14 GMT
One thing that confirms is Jordan Cousins is actually wank regardless of the manager Seriously. 🙄 I take it you didnt go to luton then cos he was one of our best players on the day. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 8, 2020 13:15:39 GMT
Not this bollocks about being a play off side under Jones again. Seriously 😂😂 It just shows that football is a team game, players can do good things, individually, but unless the team / system is working it can all add up to 10% of sweet fa. Team stats under Jones were often quite good...but the key ingredient were missing...goals and clean sheets We just looked awful under him. There was nothing bar big gaps that teams could pass through with ease. |
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Post by pottersrule on Mar 8, 2020 13:21:55 GMT
One thing that confirms is Jordan Cousins is actually wank regardless of the manager Seriously. 🙄 I take it you didnt go to luton then cos he was one of our best players on the day. If people use those metrics then Nathan Collins is the worse defender on our books? |
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Mar 8, 2020 13:23:41 GMT
I really find this interesting but play off contenders under Jones, I don’t think so. I’ll trust my eyes from the Huddersfield at home sample that under Jones we were fucked!
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Post by RF10 on Mar 8, 2020 13:27:28 GMT
Seriously. 🙄 I take it you didnt go to luton then cos he was one of our best players on the day. If people use those metrics then Nathan Collins is the worse defender on our books? Far easy to get a rating of 6 -7 playing 90 minutes than 10 minutes at end of games. |
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Mar 8, 2020 13:31:11 GMT
One thing that confirms is Jordan Cousins is actually wank regardless of the manager Seriously. 🙄 I take it you didnt go to luton then cos he was one of our best players on the day. So one of the best players in a drawn game against bottom of the league? Have you seen the graph that the thread is about? Cousins is no Glenn Whelan, and dont really see what he brings to the team when we have youngsters like Sorrenson that could play there. Hopefully he is cleared out in the summer |
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Post by StaffordPotter on Mar 8, 2020 13:34:15 GMT
I really find this interesting but play off contenders under Jones, I don’t think so. I’ll trust my eyes from the Huddersfield at home sample that under Jones we were fucked! That useless fucker wouldn't have even got us into the play offs in League One after he relegated us. |
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Post by maninasuitcase on Mar 8, 2020 13:37:09 GMT
Seriously. 🙄 I take it you didnt go to luton then cos he was one of our best players on the day. So one of the best players in a drawn game against bottom of the league? Have you seen the graph that the thread is about? Cousins is no Glenn Whelan, and dont really see what he brings to the team when we have youngsters like Sorrenson that could play there. Hopefully he is cleared out in the summer Must admit i didnt click on the graph. And yes that doesn't look good for cousins but i think hes done a decent job when required. Not sure why collins isnt better under MON as hes a decent talent. |
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Post by tachyon on Mar 8, 2020 14:33:49 GMT
I really find this interesting but play off contenders under Jones, I don’t think so. I’ll trust my eyes from the Huddersfield at home sample that under Jones we were fucked! It's a lot easier to stay in games and win them if your keeper isn't languishing as the 33rd best stopper in the Championship. Jack's turnaround has been a big part of turning partial performances into actual points. |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 8, 2020 14:38:35 GMT
I really find this interesting but play off contenders under Jones, I don’t think so. I’ll trust my eyes from the Huddersfield at home sample that under Jones we were fucked! It's a lot easier to stay in games and win them if your keeper isn't languishing as the 33rd best stopper in the Championship. Jack's turnaround has been a big part of turning partial performances into actual points. Have you got anything for ratings home v away tach? |
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Post by cerebralstokie on Mar 8, 2020 15:38:50 GMT
One thing that this type of analysis doesn't take into account is that the whole is often greater than the sum of the parts.
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Post by tachyon on Mar 8, 2020 17:01:15 GMT
One thing that this type of analysis doesn't take into account is that the whole is often greater than the sum of the parts. Sure, it just scratches the surface. So you use game performance outputs, your own lineups, opponent lineups, substitutions etc to pick up any synergy and thus optimise you own best eleven. |
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Post by tachyon on Mar 8, 2020 17:04:06 GMT
It's a lot easier to stay in games and win them if your keeper isn't languishing as the 33rd best stopper in the Championship. Jack's turnaround has been a big part of turning partial performances into actual points. Have you got anything for ratings home v away tach? Pretty typical splits. Teams and individuals play around 7 to 10% better at home compared to away. Ince, Batth, Butland & BMI's home/away slits are fairly close. Probably a sample size and/or opponent strength issue. |
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Mar 8, 2020 17:09:26 GMT
Have you got anything for ratings home v away tach? Pretty typical splits. Teams and individuals play around 7 to 10% better at home compared to away. Ince, Batth, Butland & BMI's home/away slits are fairly close. Probably a sample size and/or opponent strength issue. Is there any research as to why teams normally play better at home? Is it the fans, the pitch or sleeping in their own bed the night before the game? Also, when you get the occasional team which has better away from than home form, are there any noticable factors which influence this? |
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Post by David Brent on Mar 8, 2020 17:11:05 GMT
If it wasn’t for Jones I think we’d have been battling for a playoff position
Not languishing in 17th
Worst stoke manager for a very long time
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Post by robwahlmann on Mar 8, 2020 17:23:49 GMT
We have a player ratings system that looks at a variety of performance indicators, ranging from expected goals and assist to ball progression (moving the ball into dangerous areas of the field, regardless of any subsequent outcome) and tackles and interceptions that deprive the opposition of dangerous possession. These are amalgamated and normalised to a score out of ten to align to traditional player ratings. Most 201920 season Stoke players have played a decent sized sample of games under Jones and MON, so I've plotted their game averages to see firstly if there's been a general improvement under MON (there has) and which players have benefitted most from playing under the current manager. View Attachment Under Jones the average player rating was 6.39, that has risen to 6.54 under MON. For comparison, Leeds' ave player rating is 6.77, Preston's, a playoff type team is 6.4 and bottom club, Luton's is 6.2. So under Jones, whatever the results say, and in line with many xG tables, we were a borderline playoff team. Under MON we are a solid playoff team, but short of being an automatic contender. Looking at individual players, McClean, Clucas, Vokes, Ince and Powell have upped their game under MON (although Powell had few opportunities under Jones). Most significantly, JB has been much less error prone under MON. He is currently in the top 30% of keepers, under Jones he was in the bottom 5% and a real burden. We don't do "Player of the Week" awards, but if we did, it's going to take something very special in the remaining game to deny Nick Powell. What matters is what you do in both boxes, the rest is almost irrelevant.  |
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Post by millbeck on Mar 8, 2020 17:35:32 GMT
Pretty typical splits. Teams and individuals play around 7 to 10% better at home compared to away. Ince, Batth, Butland & BMI's home/away slits are fairly close. Probably a sample size and/or opponent strength issue. Is there any research as to why teams normally play better at home? Is it the fans, the pitch or sleeping in their own bed the night before the game? Also, when you get the occasional team which has better away from than home form, are there any noticable factors which influence this? 👍 |
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Post by chiswickpotter on Mar 8, 2020 18:13:54 GMT
We have a player ratings system that looks at a variety of performance indicators, ranging from expected goals and assist to ball progression (moving the ball into dangerous areas of the field, regardless of any subsequent outcome) and tackles and interceptions that deprive the opposition of dangerous possession. These are amalgamated and normalised to a score out of ten to align to traditional player ratings. Most 201920 season Stoke players have played a decent sized sample of games under Jones and MON, so I've plotted their game averages to see firstly if there's been a general improvement under MON (there has) and which players have benefitted most from playing under the current manager. View Attachment Under Jones the average player rating was 6.39, that has risen to 6.54 under MON. For comparison, Leeds' ave player rating is 6.77, Preston's, a playoff type team is 6.4 and bottom club, Luton's is 6.2. So under Jones, whatever the results say, and in line with many xG tables, we were a borderline playoff team. Under MON we are a solid playoff team, but short of being an automatic contender. Looking at individual players, McClean, Clucas, Vokes, Ince and Powell have upped their game under MON (although Powell had few opportunities under Jones). Most significantly, JB has been much less error prone under MON. He is currently in the top 30% of keepers, under Jones he was in the bottom 5% and a real burden. We don't do "Player of the Week" awards, but if we did, it's going to take something very special in the remaining game to deny Nick Powell. Any ranking that has Sam Vokes May ahead of Nick Powell and Tom Ince close to Powell and ahead of Joe Allen has little credibility in my eyes. The gap in overall ranking MON to NJ is now where near large enough for point per game of 1.5 versus 0.5 ish |
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Post by pottersrule on Mar 8, 2020 23:36:28 GMT
If people use those metrics then Nathan Collins is the worse defender on our books? Far easy to get a rating of 6 -7 playing 90 minutes than 10 minutes at end of games. Well cousins hasn't had many 90 minute games either has he? |
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