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Post by davejohnno1 on Mar 29, 2020 18:03:31 GMT
Despite doing everything I can to observe the rules I still ask the question "is this all worth it"? Are we simply saving those (in the main) who would likely have died from one condition or another anyway? The lockdowns are to help the NHS yes? Most are going to get this, many will be untouched. We are just trying to manage it so we don't all get it at same time, thereby helping the NHS prolong the lives of those who will be suffering from other illnesses anyway? I read something today that said we lose 125 people per day to suicide, 800,000 per year. Is global shut down and an economic disaster really worth all this? I genuinely don't know the answer but I err on the side of it not being, as I've done from the start in truth. I am not knocking your opinion mate, but your suicide stats are way off. UK average approx 6,500 per annum, 18 every day ish. They aren't my stats. What about cancer? 1 in 6 deaths are cancer related? |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Mar 29, 2020 18:05:38 GMT
Despite doing everything I can to observe the rules I still ask the question "is this all worth it"? Are we simply saving those (in the main) who would likely have died from one condition or another anyway? The lockdowns are to help the NHS yes? Most are going to get this, many will be untouched. We are just trying to manage it so we don't all get it at same time, thereby helping the NHS prolong the lives of those who will be suffering from other illnesses anyway? I read something today that said we lose 125 people per day to suicide, 800,000 per year. Is global shut down and an economic disaster really worth all this? I genuinely don't know the answer but I err on the side of it not being, as I've done from the start in truth. Suicide isn’t contagious, nor does it overload health departments so it’s not a fair comparison to make at all. Suicide is tragic, but doesn’t overload intensive care units, doesn’t all occur over a couple of weeks etc. It’s true there are a lot of things to die from, but simply carrying on as normal simply isn’t an option because if you overload the health service then nothing functions within it. Everything not Covid related, chemo, heart operations, dialysis, a and e beds for stroke, heart attacks you name it simply couldn’t function because all capacity would be taken up by Covid cases, that would cause thousands of additional deaths because we didn’t control the spread at all. Then there’s the staff, being exposed to a high volume of cases puts them at extraordinary risk and if you lose a significant number because of overload, your capacity drops even further and it gets even worse. Then people start dying of superinfections and lack of clinical hygiene and when that starts (This is what pushed the Spanish Flu mainly) you’re out of control completely and if it gets out of control completely the economy plunges anyway. This isn’t easy, but the measures make sense. This is rampant in terms of contagiousness, and because of that it’s a massive threat. I get it re your first paragraph but coronavirus cases are already being prioritised over cancer treatments for example, a far bigger killer both in the uk and worldwide and also among the elderly. |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Mar 29, 2020 18:12:09 GMT
Suicide isn’t contagious, nor does it overload health departments so it’s not a fair comparison to make at all. Suicide is tragic, but doesn’t overload intensive care units, doesn’t all occur over a couple of weeks etc. It’s true there are a lot of things to die from, but simply carrying on as normal simply isn’t an option because if you overload the health service then nothing functions within it. Everything not Covid related, chemo, heart operations, dialysis, a and e beds for stroke, heart attacks you name it simply couldn’t function because all capacity would be taken up by Covid cases, that would cause thousands of additional deaths because we didn’t control the spread at all. Then there’s the staff, being exposed to a high volume of cases puts them at extraordinary risk and if you lose a significant number because of overload, your capacity drops even further and it gets even worse. Then people start dying of superinfections and lack of clinical hygiene and when that starts (This is what pushed the Spanish Flu mainly) you’re out of control completely and if it gets out of control completely the economy plunges anyway. This isn’t easy, but the measures make sense. This is rampant in terms of contagiousness, and because of that it’s a massive threat. I get it re your first paragraph but coronavirus cases are already being prioritised over cancer treatments for example, a far bigger killer both in the uk and worldwide and also among the elderly. Over a much longer period of time though in the main. Only something like Glioblastoma could kill you in a couple of weeks and only then if it was massively aggressive. It’s also not communicable so no point in lockdown and is spread out over the year as a whole. You get your chemo and you’re not in hospital for a period of time. Covid requires acute intensive care for one or two weeks with ventilation of which we only have a few. Run out of ventilators and it’s game over for so many people who might well survive. One sure way to do that is to send a load of immunosuppressed people to hospital for other things. The reason they are prioritised is that people getting Chemo are massively at risk because chemo disrupts immune responses and having a hospital overloaded with cases would mean guaranteed serious infection when they went for chemo or surgery. If you don’t suppress covid, people with cancer all go down with it and will likely die from it because they can’t make the antibodies to deal with it. There’s no point inviting people in for chemo for a tumour that will take 18 months to kill them if you’re going to get them infected with covid and kill them in two weeks because they’re immunosuppressed. That only gets worse if you do nothing. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 18:19:08 GMT
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whakka
Youth Player
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Post by whakka on Mar 29, 2020 18:20:30 GMT
Looking at the situation nationally there are clearly responsible people who are both complying with the Government advice, and making every effort to help others who might be in more difficult situations than their own. Then you have prats like Mike Ashley who only want what's best for themselves. I am beginning to feel that the big supermarkets are falling into this self serving category as well. They may ostensibly be exercising "social reponsibility" and encouraging customers to keep a safe distance and so on, but I believe that many measures taken, and some of their experiences, have been used to cover up widespread exploitation of the public and blatant profiteering. 1. As we are well aware there has been extensive panic buying by customers, with shelves cleared and essential commodities sold out. These aisles of empty shelves represent a huge cash flow income peak for the store. They then take advantage of the situation by filling up shelves with more expensive alternatives, rather than the best buy and budget goods, so customers that are buying then have to pay more. So the store gets a second windfall on sales of their stock with bigger margins of profit. 2. Many of the big stores now operate a "one way" system for customers, on the grounds that shoppers can stay a space apart and not have to pass close by to other shoppers. This "control" has the effect of slowing down the movement of customers and they go into browsing mode and potentially shop for products that might be new or of previously unconsidered appeal. Also the one way system means that the poor shopper now has to negotiate every aisle, increasing the likelihood of them passing and seeing a rack and selecting an "impulse" purchase or add on. 3. Some supermarkets are insisting that shoppers use trolleys rather than baskets, as a professed health control measure. Their claim is that they start the day with a known number of trolleys in use. Then according to the number of trolleys at the entrance, they can tell how many are in use and consequently how many shoppers there are likely to be in the store, and they can monitor and control numbers and queues. Use of a trolley as a "buffer" helps to keep customer spacing in effect. They say that each trolley is cleaned after use before being made available to the next customer, although it is hard to say how diligentally this policy is followed. However what is known is that shoppers with trolleys spend substantially more in store than those using baskets. With a trolley you can get misled, as even with several items in the bottom of a trolley it can still look fairly empty, and the shopper doesn't realise quite how much they have chosen and how much extra they have spent. Shoppers with a basket are automatically limited by capacity and are less likely to make multiple panic type purchases, and conversely those with a trolley can more easily disguise the fact that they've bought several units of handwash or whatever, and it is more difficult for staff to visibly see if those customers are behaving irresponsibly. Trolley shopping almost certainly means a bigger shop by every customer and another windfall for the supermarket. 4. Some stores have promoted dedicated shopping hours for priority social groups and those in frontline services. These special arrangements for shoppers may make for good publicity and are presented as caring and responsible by the supermarket, but the fact remains that these "old folk" only hours for example are allocated at the very start of the day, such as 6.00 AM to 7.00AM, or last thing at night. The result is that the supermarket thus encourages an influx or rush of customers into the store at a time that might usually be very quiet. The normally empty store is then filled and there is more trade or profit for the company. So are the supermarkets to be praised for being both available in staying open, and being responsible and considerate in controlling health issues. Or are they blatently profiteering and putting themselves in a stronger position by taking advantage of a marketing opportunity. Beware of Greeks bearing gifts. is it really to much for people to make their own choices if they dont need it but buy then that's on them no one else. |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Mar 29, 2020 18:21:34 GMT
Awful, poor bloke. I seriously can’t imagine the pressure of dealing with this in any official capacity at all. |
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Post by bathstoke on Mar 29, 2020 18:25:30 GMT
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Mar 29, 2020 18:26:08 GMT
Derby innit  |
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Post by Los Alfareros on Mar 29, 2020 18:31:42 GMT
I am not knocking your opinion mate, but your suicide stats are way off. UK average approx 6,500 per annum, 18 every day ish. They aren't my stats. What about cancer? 1 in 6 deaths are cancer related? I see the overlord ESOF has answered that one for you. And politely I didn't say they were your stats, you posted them, they were wrong that's all.  |
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Post by drfootball on Mar 29, 2020 18:34:15 GMT
I'm all for alternative views and a sense of perspective, not sure a piece from the Mail gives either. I dont usually like the mail either, so maybe try this one? I understand the need for the questioning of the way this is being dealt with and they are both well reasoned and written pieces of work. It's just that I don't think they're correct. I'd love to be proven wrong. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 18:35:14 GMT
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Post by dexta on Mar 29, 2020 18:39:53 GMT
Looking at the situation nationally there are clearly responsible people who are both complying with the Government advice, and making every effort to help others who might be in more difficult situations than their own. Then you have prats like Mike Ashley who only want what's best for themselves. I am beginning to feel that the big supermarkets are falling into this self serving category as well. They may ostensibly be exercising "social reponsibility" and encouraging customers to keep a safe distance and so on, but I believe that many measures taken, and some of their experiences, have been used to cover up widespread exploitation of the public and blatant profiteering. 1. As we are well aware there has been extensive panic buying by customers, with shelves cleared and essential commodities sold out. These aisles of empty shelves represent a huge cash flow income peak for the store. They then take advantage of the situation by filling up shelves with more expensive alternatives, rather than the best buy and budget goods, so customers that are buying then have to pay more. So the store gets a second windfall on sales of their stock with bigger margins of profit. 2. Many of the big stores now operate a "one way" system for customers, on the grounds that shoppers can stay a space apart and not have to pass close by to other shoppers. This "control" has the effect of slowing down the movement of customers and they go into browsing mode and potentially shop for products that might be new or of previously unconsidered appeal. Also the one way system means that the poor shopper now has to negotiate every aisle, increasing the likelihood of them passing and seeing a rack and selecting an "impulse" purchase or add on. 3. Some supermarkets are insisting that shoppers use trolleys rather than baskets, as a professed health control measure. Their claim is that they start the day with a known number of trolleys in use. Then according to the number of trolleys at the entrance, they can tell how many are in use and consequently how many shoppers there are likely to be in the store, and they can monitor and control numbers and queues. Use of a trolley as a "buffer" helps to keep customer spacing in effect. They say that each trolley is cleaned after use before being made available to the next customer, although it is hard to say how diligentally this policy is followed. However what is known is that shoppers with trolleys spend substantially more in store than those using baskets. With a trolley you can get misled, as even with several items in the bottom of a trolley it can still look fairly empty, and the shopper doesn't realise quite how much they have chosen and how much extra they have spent. Shoppers with a basket are automatically limited by capacity and are less likely to make multiple panic type purchases, and conversely those with a trolley can more easily disguise the fact that they've bought several units of handwash or whatever, and it is more difficult for staff to visibly see if those customers are behaving irresponsibly. Trolley shopping almost certainly means a bigger shop by every customer and another windfall for the supermarket. 4. Some stores have promoted dedicated shopping hours for priority social groups and those in frontline services. These special arrangements for shoppers may make for good publicity and are presented as caring and responsible by the supermarket, but the fact remains that these "old folk" only hours for example are allocated at the very start of the day, such as 6.00 AM to 7.00AM, or last thing at night. The result is that the supermarket thus encourages an influx or rush of customers into the store at a time that might usually be very quiet. The normally empty store is then filled and there is more trade or profit for the company. So are the supermarkets to be praised for being both available in staying open, and being responsible and considerate in controlling health issues. Or are they blatently profiteering and putting themselves in a stronger position by taking advantage of a marketing opportunity. Beware of Greeks bearing gifts. Hard to tell mate, I think if the supermarkets' decisions were made by someone trying to do their best then they would do 2/3/4 and it's possible 1 happened either because everyone bought up the cheap stuff first, or because there's more profit to the manufacturers in premium brands so it's what the supermarkets can get the most of. Of course, if they're run by sly nasty fucks they could also do those things too. The supermarket industry has spent plenty on psych research showing things like how using a trolley instead of a basket, or a bigger trolley, means you buy more. I just think this is a case where greed and sense happen to line up. Tbf I'm happy with 2/3/4. We want to get as much food to as many people as possible while keeping everyone apart. Spreading out the hours that people are shopping is good, and if people buy a trolleyfull in one go then a family only needs one shop a week instead of every other day. I'm worried they've decided to screw us with the posh brands though. I assure you where I work that has not happened... On any of the points you have put down if some old dear has wanted a loaf they have got one along with all the other things what they have wanted... It all depends how your store is managed you don't have to put all your stock out there is nothing from stopping you to hold any stock back for the vulnerable etc... Don't get me wrong alot of other stores will operate a lot differently than ours... The two weeks before Boris put us on lockdown were probably the hardest two weeks of my life both mentally and physically... People were just acting like animals. It came to the point we actually locked our shop so we could get stock out in the day without being hassled abused swore at etc... But this week completely different people willing to wait to go in standing 2 meters apart etc... People actually saying thank you and your doing a good job etc... |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Mar 29, 2020 18:44:33 GMT
They aren't my stats. What about cancer? 1 in 6 deaths are cancer related? I see the overlord ESOF has answered that one for you. And politely I didn't say they were your stats, you posted them, they were wrong that's all. I've just googled it and 800,000 per year are casualties of suicide globally, 1 every 40 seconds. |
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Post by mattyd on Mar 29, 2020 18:46:25 GMT
What happens when it comes back.
The worlds big economies have dug deep to pump Trillions into their economies, but this wont go away.
It's with us for eternity, and when the money runs out...Then what...
Agenda 21 is with us .
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Post by bathstoke on Mar 29, 2020 18:46:36 GMT
Derby innit Dirty ram $#@&&!n B@$¥@&ds & lets be under no illusion here guys. By the look of that food, these are El Blanco |
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 29, 2020 18:53:39 GMT
Bit of fun. Who are we looking at here?  |
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Post by drfootball on Mar 29, 2020 18:53:45 GMT
If you don't know what you're talking about you really should shut up. I've spent the last 28 years working in a specialist clothing supplier to the NHS.They've never bothered with the UK textile industry because they want cheap and the UK textile industry makes premium product so they havnt been interested in this market until last week. Nothing to do with this government or any Tory government,in fact the NHS dependence on foreign textiles and PPE goes back to the closures of the NHS hospital laundries and the outsourcing to private enterprise of linen services under the Blair government. Our firm had 60 machinists in 1997 now we have 2 making special order items everything else is produced overseas because the NHS won't pay the price of UK manufacture. Blame that on who you like but its got naff all to do with this lot. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 29, 2020 18:58:28 GMT
If you don't know what you're talking about you really should shut up. I've spent the last 28 years working in a specialist clothing supplier to the NHS.They've never bothered with the UK textile industry because they want cheap and the UK textile industry makes premium product so they havnt been interested in this market until last week. Nothing to do with this government or any Tory government,in fact the NHS dependence on foreign textiles and PPE goes back to the closures of the NHS hospital laundries and the outsourcing to private enterprise of linen services under the Blair government. Our firm had 60 machinists in 1997 now we have 2 making special order items everything else is produced overseas because the NHS won't pay the price of UK manufacture. Blame that on who you like but its got naff all to do with this lot. The article says they’re ready to go and have heard nothing. |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 29, 2020 19:00:08 GMT
Bit of fun. Who are we looking at here? I'm no fan of Kinnock JR but you'd think South Wales Police would have more on their plate wouldn't you. |
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Post by henry on Mar 29, 2020 19:03:00 GMT
Just tuned into the BBC briefing, and that woman in green certainly knows her onions…...dunno who she is though She's a grocer |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 19:03:28 GMT
I'm no fan of Kinnock JR but you'd think South Wales Police would have more on their plate wouldn't you. Even funnier is his pinned tweet, dated 24th March outlining what you can and cannot leave the house for! |
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Post by Veritas on Mar 29, 2020 19:12:03 GMT
But you are happy to falsely report your taxable income and defraud your fellow citizens. Its mugs like you that accept it and carry on as normal whilst being robbed that make high taxes happen, when the rate of n.i doubles and your taxes increase youll be begging trades to give you a better cash price. Whose defrauding then? You are a thief, accept it. |
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Post by henry on Mar 29, 2020 19:14:09 GMT
What I'm not quite understanding is the rationale for them shutting earlier than they used to. Perhaps it's to redirect staff to the busier times? But I went to Sainsbury's at 10.30pm a couple of weeks ago to deliberately avoid a busy shop and there was barely anyone in. I can't do that now. Re-stacking the shelves has been the biggest problem, it's why Tesco went from 24 hour trading to closing at 22:00 and opening at 06:00 so they could physically get product out onto the shop floor. Initially the staff were that busy at the tills there wasn't enough of them to move items from the holding area to the shelves. Stores have so little storage space these days that you end up with a bottle neck as trucks then can't offload deliveries as there's nowhere to put the stock...... Is this a fucking piss take, even before Covid 19, 3/4 of the fucking tills are un-manned. Stores going from 24 hours to 12 does nothing but force the buyer to having any old shit you put out. |
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Post by stokeson on Mar 29, 2020 19:14:29 GMT
I'm no fan of Kinnock JR but you'd think South Wales Police would have more on their plate wouldn't you. Even funnier is his pinned tweet, dated 24th March outlining what you can and cannot leave the house for! Like to thank Tory HQ/Roger for pointing this out................ |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 19:19:13 GMT
But you are happy to falsely report your taxable income and defraud your fellow citizens. Its mugs like you that accept it and carry on as normal whilst being robbed that make high taxes happen, when the rate of n.i doubles and your taxes increase youll be begging trades to give you a better cash price. Whose defrauding then? berahinosgoals calling someone else a mug.
Priceless.
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Post by drfootball on Mar 29, 2020 19:19:58 GMT
If you don't know what you're talking about you really should shut up. I've spent the last 28 years working in a specialist clothing supplier to the NHS.They've never bothered with the UK textile industry because they want cheap and the UK textile industry makes premium product so they havnt been interested in this market until last week. Nothing to do with this government or any Tory government,in fact the NHS dependence on foreign textiles and PPE goes back to the closures of the NHS hospital laundries and the outsourcing to private enterprise of linen services under the Blair government. Our firm had 60 machinists in 1997 now we have 2 making special order items everything else is produced overseas because the NHS won't pay the price of UK manufacture. Blame that on who you like but its got naff all to do with this lot. The article says they’re ready to go and have heard nothing. Why would they? They're not NHS approved suppliers,they don't produce the required product to the required standards,you don't just cobble up anything and its fit for purpose.Look up the standards they're complex and must be approved by the MHRA,CfPP-01-04, HTM-01-05 etc If they did I sure you'd have plenty to say about more incompetence. We have 3 containers at sea and I'm sure my friends and competitors in our industry are all doing the same .We're working flat out to provide the gear that's needed so park your party political dogma it's got nothing to do with this. |
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Post by raythesailor on Mar 29, 2020 19:22:13 GMT
If you don't know what you're talking about you really should shut up. I've spent the last 28 years working in a specialist clothing supplier to the NHS.They've never bothered with the UK textile industry because they want cheap and the UK textile industry makes premium product so they havnt been interested in this market until last week. Nothing to do with this government or any Tory government,in fact the NHS dependence on foreign textiles and PPE goes back to the closures of the NHS hospital laundries and the outsourcing to private enterprise of linen services under the Blair government. Our firm had 60 machinists in 1997 now we have 2 making special order items everything else is produced overseas because the NHS won't pay the price of UK manufacture. Blame that on who you like but its got naff all to do with this lot. I feel your pain and share your anger. When and if this is all over there are going to be a lot of questions which will be asked, and this time THEY MUST BE ANSWERED. We have had yers and years, generations and generations of Bull Shit. Enough is Enough. I and we are not extremely political, we just Demand to know , WHAT IS GOING ON ? Does that have a sound of the sixties? Maybe they were right, they certainly changed thinking at the time for the next 50/60 yrs.! |
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Post by Laughing Gravy on Mar 29, 2020 19:27:20 GMT
I'm no fan of Kinnock JR but you'd think South Wales Police would have more on their plate wouldn't you. You mean the 30 seconds it took some back office civvy to retweet and comment to make the point of the rank stupidity and hypocrisy of some even seemingly intelligent people and because of the Kinnock's celebrity this tweet will reach a national audience? I think it's 30 seconds well spent myself. |
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Post by dexta on Mar 29, 2020 19:28:14 GMT
Re-stacking the shelves has been the biggest problem, it's why Tesco went from 24 hour trading to closing at 22:00 and opening at 06:00 so they could physically get product out onto the shop floor. Initially the staff were that busy at the tills there wasn't enough of them to move items from the holding area to the shelves. Stores have so little storage space these days that you end up with a bottle neck as trucks then can't offload deliveries as there's nowhere to put the stock...... Is this a fucking piss take, even before Covid 19, 3/4 of the fucking tills are un-manned. Stores going from 24 hours to 12 does nothing but force the buyer to having any old shit you put out. have you ever worked in retail fella.. I take it you haven't never heard such a stupid reply on here ever... You are talking bollocks |
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Post by stokeson on Mar 29, 2020 19:30:36 GMT
The article says they’re ready to go and have heard nothing. Why would they? They're not NHS approved suppliers,they don't produce the required product to the required standards,you don't just cobble up anything and its fit for purpose.Look up the standards they're complex and must be approved by the MHRA,CfPP-01-04, HTM-01-05 etc If they did I sure you'd have plenty to say about more incompetence. We have 3 containers at sea and I'm sure my friends and competitors in our industry are all doing the same .We're working flat out to provide the gear that's needed so park your party political dogma it's got nothing to do with this. Theres got to be some thought put into a Make British Buy British campain when this is all over. |
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