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Post by starkiller on Sept 30, 2020 11:05:25 GMT
You post stuff from fullfact.org. There's your Orwell Award, right there. The epitome of 'don't think that, you must think this'. Blimey, listen to yourself. That's exactly what YOU are doing (and doing it to yourself). You've got an idea in your head about what you THINK is going on and rather than ask questions, rather than attempt to find unbiased or at least alternative view points, you're locked into an ever spiralling search for anything that might (no matter how small) confirm your suspicion, regardless of the credibility of the source that might bring you that comfort. There's plenty of shit around, of course. You think I'm incapable of questioning it? I don't simply decide what I think is going on. But I'm not going to submit to fullfact when they have an intended purpose. They also need fact-checking. And I can watch BBC and Sky. So I'm certainly well schooled in what supposed to be happening and why. And that in itself doesn't make any rational sense. It's the same tired old abuse again. Oatcake psychoanalysis and insult for those want to question. And it's not just reserved for me. Labelling others as tin foil hat wearers for having a range of views for what this is all about. If you still think this is entirely about controlling a virus that threatens us all, and all the resulting measures are the result of incompetence, fair enough. I'm not going to attempt Poundland psychoanalysis in response. However, many would differ.
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Post by thisisouryear on Sept 30, 2020 11:13:12 GMT
But you say you aren't a conspiracy theorist but then you come out with this? You don't do yourself any favours and you are kidding nobody here. I'm not trying to kid anyone. But economic suicide for something that has a 99.9 percent recovery rate has many folk you could never describe as conspiracy theorists in a basement to draw similar conclusions. Both medics and economists. It would be a insult to label these people as fruitcakes. And ignorant to dismiss them, simply because organisations like the BBC won't welcome this discussion and debate. Why do they need to be conspiracy theorists? They just have agendas, manipulate the stats and suck in people like you because you are easily manipulated. Are you in a cult? Do you have serious religious beliefs? What if your whole life is a lie and everything you think is real is actually fake? Your opinion on the whole situation is so fixed it's like you have been radicalised. Do you ever question your own view or even try to look at things from different view points?
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Post by starkiller on Sept 30, 2020 11:14:53 GMT
I'm not trying to kid anyone. But economic suicide for something that has a 99.9 percent recovery rate has many folk you could never describe as conspiracy theorists in a basement to draw similar conclusions. Both medics and economists. It would be a insult to label these people as fruitcakes. And ignorant to dismiss them, simply because organisations like the BBC won't welcome this discussion and debate. Why do they need to be conspiracy theorists? They just have agendas, manipulate the stats and suck in people like you because you are easily manipulated. Are you in a cult? Do you have serious religious beliefs? What if your whole life is a lie and everything you think is real is actually fake? Your opinion on the whole situation is so fixed it's like you have been radicalised. Do you ever question your own view or even try to look at things from different view points? Oh some more discount psychoanalysis. Shall I send a photocopy of my palm to you as well? A few weeks ago I was insulted for questioning my own point of view, so I have. So which is it? I can question or I can't? Let me know, when the playground bullies of the oatcake have decided. You lot, and the one with name created by his cat walking across the keyboard are obsessed with focussing the attention on me. What about something more important, such as how care homes are systematically being used in this 'pandemic' that have undoubtedly led to excess deaths?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 30, 2020 11:49:36 GMT
Why do they need to be conspiracy theorists? They just have agendas, manipulate the stats and suck in people like you because you are easily manipulated. Are you in a cult? Do you have serious religious beliefs? What if your whole life is a lie and everything you think is real is actually fake? Your opinion on the whole situation is so fixed it's like you have been radicalised. Do you ever question your own view or even try to look at things from different view points? Oh some more discount psychoanalysis. Shall I send a photocopy of my palm to you as well? A few weeks ago I was insulted for questioning my own point of view, so I have. So which is it? I can question or I can't? Let me know, when the playground bullies of the oatcake have decided. You lot, and the one with name created by his cat walking across the keyboard are obsessed with focussing the attention on me. What about something more important, such as how care homes are systematically being used in this 'pandemic' that have undoubtedly led to excess deaths? That's disingenuous at the very best. If you're going to be the Board's resident conspiracy theorist, and that assessment is based on the majority of your posts, no more no less, then you do rather invite attention to yourself.
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Post by thisisouryear on Sept 30, 2020 11:53:41 GMT
Why do they need to be conspiracy theorists? They just have agendas, manipulate the stats and suck in people like you because you are easily manipulated. Are you in a cult? Do you have serious religious beliefs? What if your whole life is a lie and everything you think is real is actually fake? Your opinion on the whole situation is so fixed it's like you have been radicalised. Do you ever question your own view or even try to look at things from different view points? Oh some more discount psychoanalysis. Shall I send a photocopy of my palm to you as well? A few weeks ago I was insulted for questioning my own point of view, so I have. So which is it? I can question or I can't? Let me know, when the playground bullies of the oatcake have decided. You lot, and the one with name created by his cat walking across the keyboard are obsessed with focussing the attention on me. What about something more important, such as how care homes are systematically being used in this 'pandemic' that have undoubtedly led to excess deaths? You are questioning every source deemed reliable and trying to make out that there is a conspiracy going on. The Who, CDC, ONS whichever it doesn't really. Which are reliable? Any of them? All I see is people taking figures from these apparently untrustworthy companies and manipulating the data from these companies to push their own agenda's. So are the figures right or wrong which they are distributing? Even the conspiracy theorists are getting their data from these places because they wouldn't be able to get it from anywhere else right? Care homes are so badly affected because there are more at risk people in one place. It's not that easy to protect them when there is a high number of cases across the country with no reliable test available to say if someone has Covid19 like back in march. Testing has been the biggest issue throughout and it will need to be much better this winter. Until a full report is released about what happened nwith patients with Covid being sent back to care homes then we won't know. It's a new disease and when you take risks on going for herd immunity then it was inevitable care homes would be hardest hit especially for this type of virus. It was all the consequence of locking down too late with not having enough information about the virus. It was a huge mistake by the government and hopefully one they learned from. Even now there is a big risk in care homes but one thing that shouldn't happen again is people being released from hospitals to care homes untested.
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Post by starkiller on Sept 30, 2020 12:11:15 GMT
Oh some more discount psychoanalysis. Shall I send a photocopy of my palm to you as well? A few weeks ago I was insulted for questioning my own point of view, so I have. So which is it? I can question or I can't? Let me know, when the playground bullies of the oatcake have decided. You lot, and the one with name created by his cat walking across the keyboard are obsessed with focussing the attention on me. What about something more important, such as how care homes are systematically being used in this 'pandemic' that have undoubtedly led to excess deaths? That's disingenuous at the very best. If you're going to be the Board's resident conspiracy theorist, and that assessment is based on the majority of your posts, no more no less, then you do rather invite attention to yourself. One percent of UK deaths labelled covid19. 24th on the list causes of death. Vulnerable people once again being placed into care homes. A PM threatening his own people with military force. No conspiracy theory needed.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 30, 2020 12:15:56 GMT
That's disingenuous at the very best. If you're going to be the Board's resident conspiracy theorist, and that assessment is based on the majority of your posts, no more no less, then you do rather invite attention to yourself. One percent of UK deaths labelled covid19. 24th on the list causes of death. A PM threatening his own people with military force. No conspiracy theory needed. He hasn't threatened anyone you moron. There is a plan (a sensible one) that 500 military personnel backfill armed guard duties carried out by the police and then those police can police.
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Post by MilanStokie on Sept 30, 2020 12:17:10 GMT
That's disingenuous at the very best. If you're going to be the Board's resident conspiracy theorist, and that assessment is based on the majority of your posts, no more no less, then you do rather invite attention to yourself. One percent of UK deaths labelled covid19. 24th on the list causes of death. A PM threatening his own people with military force. No conspiracy theory needed. 24th? when, now? As its "only" killing a few dozen. Where did it rank in April? Everyone can see the deaths are much lower now but that is nowhere near the point. This has potential to get back to quadruple figures again and the restrictions and actions are happening NOW to avoid this happening.
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Post by andystokey on Sept 30, 2020 12:28:32 GMT
So the Brady amendment has got no parliamentary time. That leaves the field to decide if you extend the existing CV powers for another 6 months. Our parliament has let us down. The powers will be extended with a majority. Anyone daring to vote against it will be deemed a negative treacherous force.
It's very sad, parliament is fundamentally broken. Executive powers create laws without debate for a whole calendar year by March 2021. What chance the full 2 years will go unchallenged? :-(
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Post by starkiller on Sept 30, 2020 12:46:39 GMT
So the Brady amendment has got no parliamentary time. That leaves the field to decide if you extend the existing CV powers for another 6 months. Our parliament has let us down. The powers will be extended with a majority. Anyone daring to vote against it will be deemed a negative treacherous force. It's very sad, parliament is fundamentally broken. Executive powers create laws without debate for a whole calendar year by March 2021. What chance the full 2 years will go unchallenged? :-( What pressure has Hoyle been put under? These are dark times.
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Post by werrington on Sept 30, 2020 12:53:07 GMT
One percent of UK deaths labelled covid19. 24th on the list causes of death. A PM threatening his own people with military force. No conspiracy theory needed. He hasn't threatened anyone you moron. There is a plan (a sensible one) that 500 military personnel backfill armed guard duties carried out by the police and then those police can police. You call military personnel on the streets of Britain a sensible plan? You’ve lost the plot
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Post by bayernoatcake on Sept 30, 2020 12:56:26 GMT
He hasn't threatened anyone you moron. There is a plan (a sensible one) that 500 military personnel backfill armed guard duties carried out by the police and then those police can police. You call military personnel on the streets of Britain a sensible plan? You’ve lost the plot I mean it wouldn't bother me but this is the plan so stop being a drama queen.
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Post by starkiller on Sept 30, 2020 13:15:51 GMT
You call military personnel on the streets of Britain a sensible plan? You’ve lost the plot I mean it wouldn't bother me but this is the plan so stop being a drama queen. Considering how this dictatorship has operated in the last few months, and with rising civil unrest before long, let's hope it remains this way.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Sept 30, 2020 14:27:48 GMT
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Post by mtrstudent on Sept 30, 2020 14:28:14 GMT
If this were a thread about the difficulty of climbing Mount Everest and I spammed every page claiming that Mount Everest isn't real and was made up by the Nepalese tourist board to boost the Nepalese tourist industry you and everyone else would be justified in calling me a bullshitting lunatic. If I insisted that the only evidence I have for believing in Mount Everest are articles put out by the BBC and Huffington Post and dismissed the evidence because I don't like their editorial policies and anyway they are probably in the pay of the Nepalese government no-one would take me seriously. Swap Covid-19 for Mount Everest and this is exactly what you are doing. The only difference is that you expect to be taken seriously and get huffy when someone points out that you are not expressing a legitimate opinion, you are denying facts about the real world. Mount Everest isn't real mate. I know someone who's dad claimed to have climbed it and he even showed me photos but if you looked closely you could see that the images were staged and just showed his dad wearing crampons at a snow-covered Centre Parcs. It's not the Nepalese government behind this ruse though, it's 'Big Mountain' (not the shit mid-90s cod-reggae band, but a shadowy cabal comprising of Go Outdoors, Millets, The North Face, Karrimor, and rather inexplicably, Tile Mountain). WAKE UP SHEEPLE! Love it. Spot on description of starkiller and the likes.
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Post by mtrstudent on Sept 30, 2020 14:32:03 GMT
[snip] 24th on the list causes of death. [snip]. 24th? when, now? As its "only" killing a few dozen. Where did it rank in April? Everyone can see the deaths are much lower now but that is nowhere near the point. This has potential to get back to quadruple figures again and the restrictions and actions are happening NOW to avoid this happening. It's the same lunacy we saw before the first wave. I remember that graph they loved showing covid was something like 20th in disease deaths for 2020. "It's only killed a few people so far so we shouldn't do anything about it". And then it turns out that a fucking virus can spread exponentially, and it rocketed to top place killer. It's the same shit all over again and if enough people listen to that shit then a lot more will die. And those who unthinkingly spread that shit share the responsibility and helped to kill those people.
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Post by mtrstudent on Sept 30, 2020 14:49:41 GMT
Let's think of the logic here: "doctors" is in the title so it's saying we should listen to doctors. So if this is valid evidence, then you should listen to the medical associations and most doctors and conclude that covid is serious shit, the opposite of what this letter says. The letter says some pretty dumb, deceptive shit but it claims 1% of Belgian doctors signed it, which seemed crazy. So I looked it up: to sign you need to tick a box and give an email. They could be anyone with an internet connection. The "Belgian doctors" include Australian psychologists ( Dr. Stephen Addis), Florida "natural medicine" floggers ( Dr. Jeffrey Dach), an Oxford prof ( Prof. David Neal) and fill my crack in, it's Dr Phil McKraken. We don't know whether these people are real and actually signed the list, but even if they are then all we know is that far below 1% of Belgian doctors signed up. We also know that the people who made this letter were lying about it being from "Belgian doctors". Seem trustworthy?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 30, 2020 14:52:10 GMT
So the Brady amendment has got no parliamentary time. That leaves the field to decide if you extend the existing CV powers for another 6 months. Our parliament has let us down. The powers will be extended with a majority. Anyone daring to vote against it will be deemed a negative treacherous force. It's very sad, parliament is fundamentally broken. Executive powers create laws without debate for a whole calendar year by March 2021. What chance the full 2 years will go unchallenged? :-( Johnson Cummings has decided that this is how government will be run from the moment they got into No. 10.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 30, 2020 14:55:23 GMT
So the Brady amendment has got no parliamentary time. That leaves the field to decide if you extend the existing CV powers for another 6 months. Our parliament has let us down. The powers will be extended with a majority. Anyone daring to vote against it will be deemed a negative treacherous force. It's very sad, parliament is fundamentally broken. Executive powers create laws without debate for a whole calendar year by March 2021. What chance the full 2 years will go unchallenged? :-( What pressure has Hoyle been put under? These are dark times. They are dark times but to be fair to Hoyle, he is absolutely livid with the government and accused Johnson of contempt for Parliament, with a complete disregard for the House. www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/graham-brady-amendment-coronavirus-act-vote-rejected-a4559836.html
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Post by drfootball on Sept 30, 2020 14:56:06 GMT
24th? when, now? As its "only" killing a few dozen. Where did it rank in April? Everyone can see the deaths are much lower now but that is nowhere near the point. This has potential to get back to quadruple figures again and the restrictions and actions are happening NOW to avoid this happening. It's the same lunacy we saw before the first wave. I remember that graph they loved showing covid was something like 20th in disease deaths for 2020. "It's only killed a few people so far so we shouldn't do anything about it". And then it turns out that a fucking virus can spread exponentially, and it rocketed to top place killer. It's the same shit all over again and if enough people listen to that shit then a lot more will die. And those who unthinkingly spread that shit share the responsibility and helped to kill those people. There are basically 2 choices failing the advent of a viable vaccine. Hide under the stairs or treat it as endemic and live with it, like we do with flu and plenty of other things. It`s pretty evident that the economy can`t stand this level of support for too much longer, so decisions will have to be made sooner rather than later. Yes, it`s a nasty bug for some people and a minor inconvenience for most and if the treatment is worse than the disease is it really worth it ?
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Post by salopstick on Sept 30, 2020 15:03:08 GMT
It's the same lunacy we saw before the first wave. I remember that graph they loved showing covid was something like 20th in disease deaths for 2020. "It's only killed a few people so far so we shouldn't do anything about it". And then it turns out that a fucking virus can spread exponentially, and it rocketed to top place killer. It's the same shit all over again and if enough people listen to that shit then a lot more will die. And those who unthinkingly spread that shit share the responsibility and helped to kill those people. There are basically 2 choices failing the advent of a viable vaccine. Hide under the stairs or treat it as endemic and live with it, like we do with flu and plenty of other things. It`s pretty evident that the economy can`t stand this level of support for too much longer, so decisions will have to be made sooner rather than later. Yes, it`s a nasty bug for some people and a minor inconvenience for most and if the treatment is worse than the disease is it really worth it ? And somehow we are prepared to ruin the economy and take away the most basic of freedoms away over it If only we had an opposition
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Post by nott1 on Sept 30, 2020 15:06:33 GMT
It's the same lunacy we saw before the first wave. I remember that graph they loved showing covid was something like 20th in disease deaths for 2020. "It's only killed a few people so far so we shouldn't do anything about it". And then it turns out that a fucking virus can spread exponentially, and it rocketed to top place killer. It's the same shit all over again and if enough people listen to that shit then a lot more will die. And those who unthinkingly spread that shit share the responsibility and helped to kill those people. There are basically 2 choices failing the advent of a viable vaccine. Hide under the stairs or treat it as endemic and live with it, like we do with flu and plenty of other things. It`s pretty evident that the economy can`t stand this level of support for too much longer, so decisions will have to be made sooner rather than later. Yes, it`s a nasty bug for some people and a minor inconvenience for most and if the treatment is worse than the disease is it really worth it ? It may not be the minor thing a lot of young people think though, there may be horrible long term effects on the lungs for instance that could show up 10 years later. Nobody knows yet!
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Post by Jimmyg on Sept 30, 2020 15:06:35 GMT
Oh some more discount psychoanalysis. Shall I send a photocopy of my palm to you as well? A few weeks ago I was insulted for questioning my own point of view, so I have. So which is it? I can question or I can't? Let me know, when the playground bullies of the oatcake have decided. You lot, and the one with name created by his cat walking across the keyboard are obsessed with focussing the attention on me. What about something more important, such as how care homes are systematically being used in this 'pandemic' that have undoubtedly led to excess deaths? That's disingenuous at the very best. If you're going to be the Board's resident conspiracy theorist, and that assessment is based on the majority of your posts, no more no less, then you do rather invite attention to yourself. I thought we had that argument the other day about what is a conspiracy theorist and you lost.. seems some people will never learn
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Post by mtrstudent on Sept 30, 2020 15:11:33 GMT
It's the same lunacy we saw before the first wave. I remember that graph they loved showing covid was something like 20th in disease deaths for 2020. "It's only killed a few people so far so we shouldn't do anything about it". And then it turns out that a fucking virus can spread exponentially, and it rocketed to top place killer. It's the same shit all over again and if enough people listen to that shit then a lot more will die. And those who unthinkingly spread that shit share the responsibility and helped to kill those people. There are basically 2 choices failing the advent of a viable vaccine. Hide under the stairs or treat it as endemic and live with it, like we do with flu and plenty of other things. It`s pretty evident that the economy can`t stand this level of support for too much longer, so decisions will have to be made sooner rather than later. Yes, it`s a nasty bug for some people and a minor inconvenience for most and if the treatment is worse than the disease is it really worth it ? I totally agree we want to know "if the treatment is worse than the disease". Can you explain your plan and what you'd expect to happen? What if we get a vaccine by early 2021, or don't? I have two issues with spreading bullshit about the coronavirus. First off, it makes people think it's safe so they avoid the basics: masks, distancing, washing etc. This sickens and kills more people and smashes the economy because these things cost almost nothing and dead people, a drowned NHS, and terrified workers & consumers are bad for the economy. It's titanically stupid, just the sort of thing Russian or Chinese operative would want to try to fuck the West. The second issue is that bullshit makes you wrong about how virulent or deadly covid is, so your estimated costs and benefits will be wrong. I care about getting the most reliable information to make sensible decisions so we can open up as much as we possibly can without killing loads of people.
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Post by drfootball on Sept 30, 2020 15:15:36 GMT
There are basically 2 choices failing the advent of a viable vaccine. Hide under the stairs or treat it as endemic and live with it, like we do with flu and plenty of other things. It`s pretty evident that the economy can`t stand this level of support for too much longer, so decisions will have to be made sooner rather than later. Yes, it`s a nasty bug for some people and a minor inconvenience for most and if the treatment is worse than the disease is it really worth it ? It may not be the minor thing a lot of young people think though, there may be horrible long term effects on the lungs for instance that could show up 10 years later. Nobody knows yet! I know, but the point I`m making is that the human race lives with a lot of nasty diseases that kill many, many more people than this does. Malaria and TB are 2 that spring to mind and they both have effective treatments and vaccines. We as a species will have to decide if this is REALLY the one we should most frightened of. I`m of the opinion that it`s not and the way we being asked to deal with is doing more harm than good. Flu deaths are outstripping CoVid deaths and have been for weeks, which is just 1 example of the disproportionate response and reaction.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Sept 30, 2020 15:17:24 GMT
7,108 new cases 71 deaths
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Post by andystokey on Sept 30, 2020 15:20:02 GMT
I think he was left with no choice, legally if the legislation was still under debate with the Brady amendment. Presumably none of the crazy laws would have been valid during the debate. I think he should have been able to set a time limit though (the speaker did for Brexit) and said you have until 11pm to debate and the vote will be in division at 11:30pm
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Post by drfootball on Sept 30, 2020 15:20:12 GMT
There are basically 2 choices failing the advent of a viable vaccine. Hide under the stairs or treat it as endemic and live with it, like we do with flu and plenty of other things. It`s pretty evident that the economy can`t stand this level of support for too much longer, so decisions will have to be made sooner rather than later. Yes, it`s a nasty bug for some people and a minor inconvenience for most and if the treatment is worse than the disease is it really worth it ? I totally agree we want to know "if the treatment is worse than the disease". Can you explain your plan and what you'd expect to happen? What if we get a vaccine by early 2021, or don't? I have two issues with spreading bullshit about the coronavirus. First off, it makes people think it's safe so they avoid the basics: masks, distancing, washing etc. This sickens and kills more people and smashes the economy because these things cost almost nothing and dead people, a drowned NHS, and terrified workers & consumers are bad for the economy. It's titanically stupid, just the sort of thing Russian or Chinese operative would want to try to fuck the West. The second issue is that bullshit makes you wrong about how virulent or deadly covid is, so your estimated costs and benefits will be wrong. I care about getting the most reliable information to make sensible decisions so we can open up as much as we possibly can without killing loads of people. I don`t have a plan,just expressing an opinion but I certainly agree with you that getting the right information to allow the individual to make sensible decisions is paramount.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Sept 30, 2020 15:23:18 GMT
I think he was left with no choice, legally if the legislation was still under debate with the Brady amendment. Presumably none of the crazy laws would have been valid during the debate. I think he should have been able to set a time limit though (the speaker did for Brexit) and said you have until 11pm to debate and the vote will be in division at 11:30pm Oh absolutely Andy. I was just responding to Starkiller's assertion that he had been lent on, when the truth of the matter, is that he (as you say) had no choice.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Sept 30, 2020 15:26:40 GMT
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