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Post by Gods on Mar 12, 2020 8:06:19 GMT
I honestly think international management is a scam. What do they do for the majority of the time? Guess it's mostly pick the team and get them organised and motivated on the day There are no player development or acquisition responsibilities. I would say it's pretty much a hobby job except for when the finals of major tournaments are on.
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 12, 2020 8:17:16 GMT
I honestly think international management is a scam. What do they do for the majority of the time? It's as time consuming and intense as club managing.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 12, 2020 8:39:59 GMT
I honestly think international management is a scam. What do they do for the majority of the time? Guess it's mostly pick the team and get them organised and motivated on the day There are no player development or acquisition responsibilities. I would say it's pretty much a hobby job except for when the finals of major tournaments are on. My as well get Big Bernie from the Jolly Potter Hartshill to do it then, after he knocks of at Staffs Potts and before his fishing on a Sunday afternoon.
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Post by Gods on Mar 12, 2020 8:42:12 GMT
Guess it's mostly pick the team and get them organised and motivated on the day There are no player development or acquisition responsibilities. I would say it's pretty much a hobby job except for when the finals of major tournaments are on. My as well get Big Bernie from the Jolly Potter Hartshill to do it then, after he knocks of at Staffs Potts and before his fishing on a Sunday afternoon. Laughs:-)
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Post by rawli on Mar 12, 2020 9:41:40 GMT
I honestly think international management is a scam. What do they do for the majority of the time? It's as time consuming and intense as club managing. What do they do on a day to day basis? No players to work with.
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 12, 2020 11:42:25 GMT
It's as time consuming and intense as club managing. What do they do on a day to day basis? No players to work with. All kinds of varying things. Often it involves media engagement and it can involve ambassadorial responsibilities..... in addition to team building remotely. Also, preparing for a tournament isn’t quite a 24/7 job but it’s at least a 12/7 job. There’s a lot involved and the manager is consulted on every detail. The demands of a tournament are amongst the most taxing in sport. Bobby Robson explained the scale of the job and admitted the enormity overwhelmed him.
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Post by markby on Mar 12, 2020 12:35:21 GMT
Well after the Euros get cancelled - in four years time you will have to go through all of your pain and suffering again. However by that time he will probably be managing a proper club. UEFA today have asked all the countries involved to do everything they can to ensure the finals go ahead as planned. Now the Bosnian FA have requested to UEFA that the NI game be postponed (virus fears in their own country):
Should this be granted, this has a couple of implications for Michael/Stoke.
1. Will he extend the training session at St.George's Park by a couple of days? Or if the virus gets worse here, maybe scrap it entirely?
2. When could the play-off games be rescheduled? Assuming that it peaks over the next couple of months (who knows?), they might squeeze them in in the gap between the end of the league season and the scheduled start of the Euro Finals (12 June) - qualified teams would have been playing preparatory friendlies then anyhow. Would Michael want to stay on for these two games? Obviously Stoke would be concerned at this extension to double-jobbing; otoh, Stoke's season will be over by then (hopefully still in the Championship), so Michael could have expected a couple of weeks holiday around then anyhow. Further, the IFA still haven't appointed his successor, and are in no rush. Were Michael to stay on for a rescheduled play-offs, with the Finals themselves soon after, both they and he would want him to stay on for the Finals should we get through.
All that said, should another couple of major host countries (England, Spain, France etc) experience a worsening situation as we're seeing in Italy, it's possible UEFA will be forced to postpone the whole Finals until next summer?
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Post by JoeinOz on Mar 12, 2020 12:42:46 GMT
UEFA today have asked all the countries involved to do everything they can to ensure the finals go ahead as planned. Now the Bosnian FA have requested to UEFA that the NI game be postponed (virus fears in their own country): Should this be granted, this has a couple of implications for Michael/Stoke. 1. Will he extend the training session at St.George's Park by a couple of days? Or if the virus gets worse here, maybe scrap it entirely? 2. When could the play-off games be rescheduled? Assuming that it peaks over the next couple of months (who knows?), they might squeeze them in in the gap between the end of the league season and the scheduled start of the Euro Finals (12 June) - qualified teams would have been playing preparatory friendlies then anyhow. Would Michael want to stay on for these two games? Obviously Stoke would be concerned at this extension to double-jobbing; otoh, Stoke's season will be over by then (hopefully still in the Championship), so Michael could have expected a couple of weeks holiday around then anyhow. Further, the IFA still haven't appointed his successor, and are in no rush. Were Michael to stay on for a rescheduled play-offs, with the Finals themselves soon after, both they and he would want him to stay on for the Finals should we get through. All that said, should another couple of major host countries (England, Spain, France etc) experience a worsening situation as we're seeing in Italy, it's possible UEFA will be forced to postpone the whole Finals until next summer?
I reckon the Ni game will take place behind closed doors. As will all the Euros play offs.
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Post by markby on Mar 12, 2020 13:03:01 GMT
Now the Bosnian FA have requested to UEFA that the NI game be postponed (virus fears in their own country): I reckon the Ni game will take place behind closed doors. As will all the Euros play offs. Maybe, maybe not. One of the problems for Bosnia is that four of their players play in Italy, inc their two stars, Dzeko (Roma) and Pjanic (Juve), and Italy is in complete lock-down. It's possible that they could get permission to leave, but what if one of them is a carrier - one of the Juve players (Rugani) has tested positive? Will there be flights to take the Bosnians back home, or will they have to go by road? And with all Serie A games suspended til April, will their players be properly match-fit? I can't imagine clubs are being allowed to train as usual.
UEFA desperately want games to go ahead, both internationals and European club competition, but I can see why the Bosnian FA want to postpone, both for the above reasons, but also because if played behind closed doors, they'll take a financial hit.
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Post by skelman on Mar 12, 2020 13:21:04 GMT
With Ireland games coming up and Stoke not higher than he probably hoped, is he going to be able to give Stoke his best This factor of his contract was done to death when M'ON joined us! He has shown his professionalism and capability from day one and nothing in that respect will change one iota. We trust in M'ON
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Post by rawli on Mar 12, 2020 13:27:59 GMT
What do they do on a day to day basis? No players to work with. All kinds of varying things. Often it involves media engagement and it can involve ambassadorial responsibilities..... in addition to team building remotely. Also, preparing for a tournament isn’t quite a 24/7 job but it’s at least a 12/7 job. There’s a lot involved and the manager is consulted on every detail. The demands of a tournament are amongst the most taxing in sport. Bobby Robson explained the scale of the job and admitted the enormity overwhelmed him. Ambassadorial could be done by anyone. Really don't think MON is doing 12 hours a day on NI job. Aren't you confusing the England job with the rest of the world?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 14:40:30 GMT
I honestly think international management is a scam. What do they do for the majority of the time? Oversee the development of the game from bottom to the top, i.e. from at grassroot level where they inspire and at uefa/fifa conferences where they are inspired, then scouting the players in the current squad and those just outside it, both the old fashioned way and by watching tv and videos; yet a lot of national coaches will soon enough complain that they miss the day to day involvement that you have at club level, unless they are at the very end of their careers and appreciate being some sort of pre-pensioners.
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Post by rawli on Mar 12, 2020 15:11:21 GMT
I honestly think international management is a scam. What do they do for the majority of the time? Oversee the development of the game from bottom to the top, i.e. from at grassroot level where they inspire and at uefa/fifa conferences where they are inspired, then scouting the players in the current squad and those just outside it, both the old fashioned way and by watching tv and videos; yet a lot of national coaches will soon enough complain that they miss the day to day involvement that you have at club level, unless they are at the very end of their careers and appreciate being some sort of pre-pensioners. Sounds like a list of self justifying nonsense - all the strategy stuff will be overseen by committees not one man. UEFA conferences will be like any other conferences - junkets that are vehicles for piss ups. Scouting can be delegated. Going to see the draws is a waste of time and money. MON hasn't been doing any of that shite since November. He turns up when the players do and coaches them. If it was so involved then the NI FA would never have agreed to it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 16:23:10 GMT
Oversee the development of the game from bottom to the top, i.e. from at grassroot level where they inspire and at uefa/fifa conferences where they are inspired, then scouting the players in the current squad and those just outside it, both the old fashioned way and by watching tv and videos; yet a lot of national coaches will soon enough complain that they miss the day to day involvement that you have at club level, unless they are at the very end of their careers and appreciate being some sort of pre-pensioners. Sounds like a list of self justifying nonsense - all the strategy stuff will be overseen by committees not one man. UEFA conferences will be like any other conferences - junkets that are vehicles for piss ups. Scouting can be delegated. Going to see the draws is a waste of time and money. MON hasn't been doing any of that shite since November. He turns up when the players do and coaches them. If it was so involved then the NI FA would never have agreed to it. You contradict yourself very well. First you claim everything the average international managers do is being/can be delegated to others, then you claim it can't be delegated, because the NI would never have agreed to it. While I don't know what exactly O'Neill's contractual obligations are, you did ask for what international managers, i.e. in general, do. That's what I answered. I'll not bother trying to help you again. The current situation is that O'Neill is matchday manager, others are doing the rest, delegated as you suggest. But that's a highly exceptional arrangement, as anyone here will tell you.
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 12, 2020 16:39:33 GMT
If letting him continue to manage NI till the conclusion of their run in this tournament was necessary to signing him then we made absolutely the right decision. It wasn't. Given the concept in Iwebby's post - "IF it was the only way MON would say yes.... ", your answer indicates you think it would have been better for us if someone else had been appointed. Do you honestly think that, sitting on 8 points from 15 games and cast iron favorites for the drop, we could have attracted anyone who, with essentially the same team that couldn't buy a win, would have gotten us an additional 34 points by now? If so, you must be in an ultra exclusive club of 1, or perhaps this is just more of your attention seeking moan-moan.
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Post by rawli on Mar 12, 2020 17:19:22 GMT
Sounds like a list of self justifying nonsense - all the strategy stuff will be overseen by committees not one man. UEFA conferences will be like any other conferences - junkets that are vehicles for piss ups. Scouting can be delegated. Going to see the draws is a waste of time and money. MON hasn't been doing any of that shite since November. He turns up when the players do and coaches them. If it was so involved then the NI FA would never have agreed to it. You contradict yourself very well. First you claim everything the average international managers do is being/can be delegated to others, then you claim it can't be delegated, because the NI would never have agreed to it. While I don't know what exactly O'Neill's contractual obligations are, you did ask for what international managers, i.e. in general, do. That's what I answered. I'll not bother trying to help you again. The current situation is that O'Neill is matchday manager, others are doing the rest, delegated as you suggest. But that's a highly exceptional arrangement, as anyone here will tell you. I've not contradicted myself. I've said if the role was so involved with the flim flam you've quoted then they wouldn't have agreed to it. Seems like a racket that could and is being done on a part time basis.
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Post by markby on Mar 12, 2020 17:54:40 GMT
you claim everything the average international managers do is being/can be delegated to others, then you claim it can't be delegated, because the NI would never have agreed to it. Seems like a racket that could and is being done on a part time basis. It all depends on the Association and the individual manager concerned, what his duties are.
With ROI for example, Martin O'Neill somewhat took the piss, only concerning himself with the Mens' Senior team, and leaving much of that to Roy Keane, both of whom were obscenely overpaid. Before those two, Giovanni Trappatoni spent more time in Italy than he did in Ireland, having only taken the job as a kind of pension (he was nearly 70 when appointed).
By contrast, we've heard how Sir Bobby Robson was totally committed to managing England, unlike eg Cappello, who attracted criticism for preferring to spend time in his villa in (tax free) Switzerland, admiring his art collection, rather than spending his time at Aston Villa on a wet Tuesday night, admiring the efforts of Gabriel Agbonlahor et al. Didn't even keep up his English lessons, apparently.
The point being that their employers were in awe of them, and/or desperate to get them in.
With Michael at NI, it was entirely different. He was fastidious in monitoring his players, watching loads of matches all over Britain, if he heard that some young 19 y.o. full back in League One might have an NI granny. He took a very close interest in the under-age teams/players, since he wanted them all to play the same style of football, so that they might progress up the ladder quicker. He also kept close tracks on any young Irish League player who might make it across the water, eg fixing up trials for them with his contacts in GB.
On top of this, he and his coaches always monitored our upcoming opponents very closely, meaning trips abroad or hours watching videos etc.
Then when he turned down the Scotland job, he was rewarded with a new contract by the IFA, which included giving him responsibility for the overall development of football in NI. This was not just some ruse to justify a pay rise, I know for a fact he took it very seriously indeed, involving schoolkids, women and girls football, the whole lot.
On top of all of which, he was always available in an ambassadorial role for the IFA, he took enhanced Coaching qualifications with UEFA in his time with us and also served as a technical observer for FIFA at the 2018 World Cup.
All told, his own immense personal commitment and attention to detail etc was one of the key factors in inspiring his players to "over-achieve", after a period under his predecessors when playing for NI had become a bit of a joke for the players, or an excuse for a piss-up away from the eyes of their club.
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Post by rawli on Mar 12, 2020 18:29:43 GMT
Seems like a racket that could and is being done on a part time basis. It all depends on the Association and the individual manager concerned, what his duties are. With ROI for example, Martin O'Neill somewhat took the piss, only concerning himself with the Mens' Senior team, and leaving much of that to Roy Keane, both of whom were obscenely overpaid. Before those two, Giovanni Trappatoni spent more time in Italy than he did in Ireland, having only taken the job as a kind of pension (he was nearly 70 when appointed). By contrast, we've heard how Sir Bobby Robson was totally committed to managing England, unlike eg Cappello, who attracted criticism for preferring to spend time in his villa in (tax free) Switzerland, admiring his art collection, rather than spending his time at Aston Villa on a wet Tuesday night, admiring the efforts of Gabriel Agbonlahor et al. Didn't even keep up his English lessons, apparently. The point being that their employers were in awe of them, and/or desperate to get them in. With Michael at NI, it was entirely different. He was fastidious in monitoring his players, watching loads of matches all over Britain, if he heard that some young 19 y.o. full back in League One might have an NI granny. He took a very close interest in the under-age teams/players, since he wanted them all to play the same style of football, so that they might progress up the ladder quicker. He also kept close tracks on any young Irish League player who might make it across the water, eg fixing up trials for them with his contacts in GB. On top of this, he and his coaches always monitored our upcoming opponents very closely, meaning trips abroad or hours watching videos etc.
Then when he turned down the Scotland job, he was rewarded with a new contract by the IFA, which included giving him responsibility for the overall development of football in NI. This was not just some ruse to justify a pay rise, I know for a fact he took it very seriously indeed, involving schoolkids, women and girls football, the whole lot. On top of all of which, he was always available in an ambassadorial role for the IFA, he took enhanced Coaching qualifications with UEFA in his time with us and also served as a technical observer for FIFA at the 2018 World Cup. All told, his own immense personal commitment and attention to detail etc was one of the key factors in inspiring his players to "over-achieve", after a period under his predecessors when playing for NI had become a bit of a joke for the players, or an excuse for a piss-up away from the eyes of their club.
Proving my point that it can be done part time. Capello has a 67% win percentage.
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Post by markby on Mar 12, 2020 18:59:44 GMT
It all depends on the Association and the individual manager concerned, what his duties are. With ROI for example, Martin O'Neill somewhat took the piss, only concerning himself with the Mens' Senior team, and leaving much of that to Roy Keane, both of whom were obscenely overpaid. Before those two, Giovanni Trappatoni spent more time in Italy than he did in Ireland, having only taken the job as a kind of pension (he was nearly 70 when appointed). By contrast, we've heard how Sir Bobby Robson was totally committed to managing England, unlike eg Cappello, who attracted criticism for preferring to spend time in his villa in (tax free) Switzerland, admiring his art collection, rather than spending his time at Aston Villa on a wet Tuesday night, admiring the efforts of Gabriel Agbonlahor et al. Didn't even keep up his English lessons, apparently. The point being that their employers were in awe of them, and/or desperate to get them in. With Michael at NI, it was entirely different. He was fastidious in monitoring his players, watching loads of matches all over Britain, if he heard that some young 19 y.o. full back in League One might have an NI granny. He took a very close interest in the under-age teams/players, since he wanted them all to play the same style of football, so that they might progress up the ladder quicker. He also kept close tracks on any young Irish League player who might make it across the water, eg fixing up trials for them with his contacts in GB. On top of this, he and his coaches always monitored our upcoming opponents very closely, meaning trips abroad or hours watching videos etc.
Then when he turned down the Scotland job, he was rewarded with a new contract by the IFA, which included giving him responsibility for the overall development of football in NI. This was not just some ruse to justify a pay rise, I know for a fact he took it very seriously indeed, involving schoolkids, women and girls football, the whole lot. On top of all of which, he was always available in an ambassadorial role for the IFA, he took enhanced Coaching qualifications with UEFA in his time with us and also served as a technical observer for FIFA at the 2018 World Cup. All told, his own immense personal commitment and attention to detail etc was one of the key factors in inspiring his players to "over-achieve", after a period under his predecessors when playing for NI had become a bit of a joke for the players, or an excuse for a piss-up away from the eyes of their club.
Proving my point that it can be done part time. Capello has a 67% win percentage. Technically you're correct, but you also miss the point.
Yes, a manager can apply himself only part-time, if he chooses to and if his employers let him get away with it. But if the same manager applies himself full-time in the same job, he's likely to get better results.
Martin O'Neill was a part-timer for ROI, yet despite having more and better players than NI, his team's results/performances were no better than Michael's with NI. Indeed, ROI fans couldn't wait to see the back of him by the end of his tenure, whereas NI fans were gutted when Michael left us.
Meanwhile, regarding Capello, a 67% win rate is highly impressive, especially when you consider Sir Alf Ramsey "only" got 61%, and Terry Venables (a paltry) 48%.
But were I English, I'd have either of those two over Capello every single time.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 12, 2020 23:45:11 GMT
Given the concept in Iwebby's post - "IF it was the only way MON would say yes.... ", your answer indicates you think it would have been better for us if someone else had been appointed. Do you honestly think that, sitting on 8 points from 15 games and cast iron favorites for the drop, we could have attracted anyone who, with essentially the same team that couldn't buy a win, would have gotten us an additional 34 points by now? If so, you must be in an ultra exclusive club of 1, or perhaps this is just more of your attention seeking moan-moan. You're just a happy clapping idiot who probably came when Nathan beat his chest.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 9:26:41 GMT
You contradict yourself very well. First you claim everything the average international managers do is being/can be delegated to others, then you claim it can't be delegated, because the NI would never have agreed to it. While I don't know what exactly O'Neill's contractual obligations are, you did ask for what international managers, i.e. in general, do. That's what I answered. I'll not bother trying to help you again. The current situation is that O'Neill is matchday manager, others are doing the rest, delegated as you suggest. But that's a highly exceptional arrangement, as anyone here will tell you. I've not contradicted myself. I've said if the role was so involved with the flim flam you've quoted then they wouldn't have agreed to it. Seems like a racket that could and is being done on a part time basis. You ask a question, pleading ignorance, and then it turns out that you have all the right answers yourself. How pathetic is that?
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Post by rawli on Mar 13, 2020 9:29:37 GMT
I've not contradicted myself. I've said if the role was so involved with the flim flam you've quoted then they wouldn't have agreed to it. Seems like a racket that could and is being done on a part time basis. You ask a question, pleading ignorance, and then it turns out that you have all the right answers yourself. How pathetic is that? As pathetic as someone who wants the last word
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Post by Royal Donut on Mar 13, 2020 14:56:48 GMT
Hasn't he got a 1.5 million bonus for staying up? I feel he'll be plenty motivated. Will he still get this bonus,if the seasons void?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 15:22:18 GMT
Hasn't he got a 1.5 million bonus for staying up? I feel he'll be plenty motivated. Will he still get this bonus,if the seasons void? I assume if on the conclusion of the season, whatever form that takes, we remain in the league then he'll get it? Might not be a bonus at all, only he and the club know the details of the contract!
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Post by GoBoks on Mar 13, 2020 15:26:32 GMT
Given the concept in Iwebby's post - "IF it was the only way MON would say yes.... ", your answer indicates you think it would have been better for us if someone else had been appointed. Do you honestly think that, sitting on 8 points from 15 games and cast iron favorites for the drop, we could have attracted anyone who, with essentially the same team that couldn't buy a win, would have gotten us an additional 34 points by now? If so, you must be in an ultra exclusive club of 1, or perhaps this is just more of your attention seeking moan-moan. You're just a happy clapping idiot who probably came when Nathan beat his chest. Maybe so, but I note you fail to answer the question, so I repeat it again: Do you honestly think that, sitting on 8 points from 15 games and cast iron favorites for the drop, we could have attracted anyone who, with essentially the same team that couldn't buy a win, would have gotten us an additional 34 points by now? If you can't answer because it makes you embarrassed, we understand, however the only conclusion that we can reach is that your answer is indeed simply another attention seeking mindless Moan-Moan bashing of the club you purport to support.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 13, 2020 16:46:59 GMT
You're just a happy clapping idiot who probably came when Nathan beat his chest. Maybe so, but I note you fail to answer the question, so I repeat it again: Do you honestly think that, sitting on 8 points from 15 games and cast iron favorites for the drop, we could have attracted anyone who, with essentially the same team that couldn't buy a win, would have gotten us an additional 34 points by now? If you can't answer because it makes you embarrassed, we understand, however the only conclusion that we can reach is that your answer is indeed simply another attention seeking mindless Moan-Moan bashing of the club you purport to support. You're a fucking idiot. What was the last game you went to?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 16:50:28 GMT
Maybe so, but I note you fail to answer the question, so I repeat it again: Do you honestly think that, sitting on 8 points from 15 games and cast iron favorites for the drop, we could have attracted anyone who, with essentially the same team that couldn't buy a win, would have gotten us an additional 34 points by now? If you can't answer because it makes you embarrassed, we understand, however the only conclusion that we can reach is that your answer is indeed simply another attention seeking mindless Moan-Moan bashing of the club you purport to support. You're a fucking idiot. That could be construed as borderline harsh.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 13, 2020 17:11:38 GMT
That could be construed as borderline harsh. What about his fucking bollocks? He's full of fucking shite that lad. How many games does he actually go to, dishing out his lary piss?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 17:17:18 GMT
That could be construed as borderline harsh. What about his fucking bollocks? He's full of fucking shite that lad. How many games does he actually go to, dishing out his lary piss? There speaketh a man who went all in on Goshen. I reach out to you sir.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 13, 2020 17:20:10 GMT
What about his fucking bollocks? He's full of fucking shite that lad. How many games does he actually go to, dishing out his lary piss? There speaketh a man who went all in on Goshen. I reach out to you sir. Actually had a score each way on santini ante post at 20s. Equally distressing!
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