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Post by foster on Feb 21, 2020 13:30:14 GMT
Having watched QT for the first time in ages last night, I was very impressed with Ash Sarkar's response to a woman who said 'shut the door and don't let anyone in'. The woman was clearly way off even for current govt thinking of migration, and I absolutely loved the fact Sarkar shut her down when she told her that a fact about immigrant contributions was 'rubbish'. We need more of this type of response to falsehoods on the left. As much as I do understand people's worries about immigration, the left have either ignored them as 'racists' or tried to be understanding of complete lies. They absolutely have to start fighting back. 'Facts don't care about your feelings' is a great start. Nothing unknown in this is there. My thinking on low skilled work is to get the people who are already here into all the available jobs - couldn't care less if they think the jobs are beneath them as they can work and look for another job at the same time. Then, if there are more jobs available, the the migrants are welcome to them.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 13:39:08 GMT
Having watched QT for the first time in ages last night, I was very impressed with Ash Sarkar's response to a woman who said 'shut the door and don't let anyone in'. The woman was clearly way off even for current govt thinking of migration, and I absolutely loved the fact Sarkar shut her down when she told her that a fact about immigrant contributions was 'rubbish'. We need more of this type of response to falsehoods on the left. As much as I do understand people's worries about immigration, the left have either ignored them as 'racists' or tried to be understanding of complete lies. They absolutely have to start fighting back. 'Facts don't care about your feelings' is a great start. Nothing unknown in this is there. My thinking on low skilled work is to get the people who are already here into all the available jobs - couldn't care less if they think the jobs are beneath them as they can work and look for another job at the same time. Then, if there are more jobs available, the the migrants are welcome to them. Not really no, it's more the way Sarkar responds to claims of falsehood over her facts. The left needs this kind of response to lies. Working and looking for other jobs/training for other jobs isn't always possible for people. And most of the 'economically inactive' Priti Patel mentioned are students, carers, or disabled.
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Post by foster on Feb 21, 2020 13:49:18 GMT
Nothing unknown in this is there. My thinking on low skilled work is to get the people who are already here into all the available jobs - couldn't care less if they think the jobs are beneath them as they can work and look for another job at the same time. Then, if there are more jobs available, the the migrants are welcome to them. Not really no, it's more the way Sarkar responds to claims of falsehood over her facts. The left needs this kind of response to lies. Working and looking for other jobs/training for other jobs isn't always possible for people. And most of the 'economically inactive' Priti Patel mentioned are students, carers, or disabled. Lame excuse if you ask me. If you're physically able then you can easily find a job. It may not be your ideal job, but it's a job nevertheless. Temp work, packing crates, picking paints, stocking shelves, bar work, delivering flyers, litter picking, whatever. I'm not counting students, full time carers or disabled people as part of the unemployed.
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Post by bathstoke on Feb 21, 2020 13:55:08 GMT
Look at that. Top 3 EE topics are issues for bigots. Who’d a thunk it... Who started them?
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Post by Davef on Feb 21, 2020 14:08:23 GMT
Having watched QT for the first time in ages last night, I was very impressed with Ash Sarkar's response to a woman who said 'shut the door and don't let anyone in'. The woman was clearly way off even for current govt thinking of migration, and I absolutely loved the fact Sarkar shut her down when she told her that a fact about immigrant contributions was 'rubbish'. We need more of this type of response to falsehoods on the left. As much as I do understand people's worries about immigration, the left have either ignored them as 'racists' or tried to be understanding of complete lies. They absolutely have to start fighting back. 'Facts don't care about your feelings' is a great start. Ironically, "Facts don't care about your feelings" is actually a book written by the prominent right wing US commentator Ben Shapiro, who is loathed by the left in America. Left wing activists like Ash Sharkar have been all over our TV screens for the past four or five years and Labour has had it's biggest kicking for decades. I actually think Labour needs less support from her kind.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 14:11:56 GMT
Not really no, it's more the way Sarkar responds to claims of falsehood over her facts. The left needs this kind of response to lies. Working and looking for other jobs/training for other jobs isn't always possible for people. And most of the 'economically inactive' Priti Patel mentioned are students, carers, or disabled. Lame excuse if you ask me. If you're physically able then you can easily find a job. It may not be your ideal job, but it's a job nevertheless. Temp work, packing crates, picking paints, stocking shelves, bar work, delivering flyers, litter picking, whatever. I'm not counting students, full time carers or disabled people as part of the unemployed. And whilst doing those incredibly low-paid, high-effort jobs, I'm saying they could easily not have time to look for other jobs. Some of those jobs people already do more than one of and can't afford the basics. It's a fine line though, admittedly, between how much we support people in getting jobs that give them enough money, and making sure we don't have millions not bothering to work.
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Post by followyoudown on Feb 21, 2020 14:13:19 GMT
Nothing unknown in this is there. My thinking on low skilled work is to get the people who are already here into all the available jobs - couldn't care less if they think the jobs are beneath them as they can work and look for another job at the same time. Then, if there are more jobs available, the the migrants are welcome to them. Not really no, it's more the way Sarkar responds to claims of falsehood over her facts. The left needs this kind of response to lies. Working and looking for other jobs/training for other jobs isn't always possible for people. And most of the 'economically inactive' Priti Patel mentioned are students, carers, or disabled. Without going over old ground there are no facts from Sarkar just opinions and whilst she is almost certainly closer to the truth than the ludicrous shut the borders woman, it doesnt make what she said fact. The study that is often quoted as being the fact migrants contribute more than they take out is the one from memory that adds the cost of schooling, nhs, army everything to the non immigrant side so that seems flawed to me. Having said that no doubt the vast majority of immigrants come to work not claim benefits and the costs of health tourism are exaggarated and cost much less than locals not being arsed to turn up for appointments however no reason both shouldn't be clamped down on.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 14:13:25 GMT
Having watched QT for the first time in ages last night, I was very impressed with Ash Sarkar's response to a woman who said 'shut the door and don't let anyone in'. The woman was clearly way off even for current govt thinking of migration, and I absolutely loved the fact Sarkar shut her down when she told her that a fact about immigrant contributions was 'rubbish'. We need more of this type of response to falsehoods on the left. As much as I do understand people's worries about immigration, the left have either ignored them as 'racists' or tried to be understanding of complete lies. They absolutely have to start fighting back. 'Facts don't care about your feelings' is a great start. Ironically, "Facts don't care about your feelings" is actually a book written by the prominent right wing US commentator Ben Shapiro, who is loathed by the left in America. Labour activists like Ash Sharkar have all over our TV screens for the past four or five years and the party has had it's biggest kicking for decades. I actually think Labour needs less of her sort. He should be loathed by all, he's awful. But it's true. I've not seen much of her but admittedly don't watch much political-leaning TV. I think the left needs to properly fight back against right wing lies really, instead of trying too hard to 'understand' things that are factually inaccurate.
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Post by Northy on Feb 21, 2020 14:23:28 GMT
Nothing unknown in this is there. My thinking on low skilled work is to get the people who are already here into all the available jobs - couldn't care less if they think the jobs are beneath them as they can work and look for another job at the same time. Then, if there are more jobs available, the the migrants are welcome to them. Not really no, it's more the way Sarkar responds to claims of falsehood over her facts. The left needs this kind of response to lies. Working and looking for other jobs/training for other jobs isn't always possible for people. And most of the 'economically inactive' Priti Patel mentioned are students, carers, or disabled. Ah, the Brit bashing, mildly racist Ash, how she keeps getting these gigs I don't know, they certainly bigged up her CV for the show. Her facts weren't all the details though were they, she mentions migrants paying tax, but how much, as they can claim many benefits, child allowance, child tax credits, housing allowance, income support, carers allowance, employment support, lone parent allowance, disability allowance which way oustrip the tax payments. Different sides of the argument have different views on the financial benefits EU migrants bring.
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Post by foster on Feb 21, 2020 14:28:32 GMT
Not really no, it's more the way Sarkar responds to claims of falsehood over her facts. The left needs this kind of response to lies. Working and looking for other jobs/training for other jobs isn't always possible for people. And most of the 'economically inactive' Priti Patel mentioned are students, carers, or disabled. Ah, the Brit bashing, mildly racist Ash, how she keeps getting these gigs I don't know, they certainly bigged up her CV for the show. Her facts weren't all the details though were they, she mentions migrants paying tax, but how much, as they can claim many benefits, child allowance, child tax credits, housing allowance, income support, carers allowance, employment support, lone parent allowance, disability allowance which way oustrip the tax payments. Different sides of the argument have different views on the financial benefits EU migrants bring. For every migrant having a job here you can consider a British person sitting at home living off benefits. That also has to be paid for. As for her (I have no idea who she is), I would say that as someone coming from an immigrant background that her view would of course be bias.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 14:33:22 GMT
Not really no, it's more the way Sarkar responds to claims of falsehood over her facts. The left needs this kind of response to lies. Working and looking for other jobs/training for other jobs isn't always possible for people. And most of the 'economically inactive' Priti Patel mentioned are students, carers, or disabled. Ah, the Brit bashing, mildly racist Ash, how she keeps getting these gigs I don't know, they certainly bigged up her CV for the show. Her facts weren't all the details though were they, she mentions migrants paying tax, but how much, as they can claim many benefits, child allowance, child tax credits, housing allowance, income support, carers allowance, employment support, lone parent allowance, disability allowance which way oustrip the tax payments. Different sides of the argument have different views on the financial benefits EU migrants bring. It's from a study that shows that all of those things are outweighed by their economic benefits. I don't think she seems racist or Brit bashing tbh.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 14:36:17 GMT
Ah, the Brit bashing, mildly racist Ash, how she keeps getting these gigs I don't know, they certainly bigged up her CV for the show. Her facts weren't all the details though were they, she mentions migrants paying tax, but how much, as they can claim many benefits, child allowance, child tax credits, housing allowance, income support, carers allowance, employment support, lone parent allowance, disability allowance which way oustrip the tax payments. Different sides of the argument have different views on the financial benefits EU migrants bring. For every migrant having a job here you can consider a British person sitting at home living off benefits. That also has to be paid for. As for her (I have no idea who she is), I would say that as someone coming from an immigrant background that her view would of course be bias. That is going off the assumption that the British person on benefits would not be on benefits if the migrant was not here. There's no evidence for that. The last rented you've put seems odd to me, her family being immigrants would surely mean she has more knowledge of immigration in this country than someone who's family were only immigrants a few hundred or a thousand years ago?
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 21, 2020 14:45:45 GMT
Not really no, it's more the way Sarkar responds to claims of falsehood over her facts. The left needs this kind of response to lies. Working and looking for other jobs/training for other jobs isn't always possible for people. And most of the 'economically inactive' Priti Patel mentioned are students, carers, or disabled. Ah, the Brit bashing, mildly racist Ash, how she keeps getting these gigs I don't know, they certainly bigged up her CV for the show. Her facts weren't all the details though were they, she mentions migrants paying tax, but how much, as they can claim many benefits, child allowance, child tax credits, housing allowance, income support, carers allowance, employment support, lone parent allowance, disability allowance which way oustrip the tax payments. Different sides of the argument have different views on the financial benefits EU migrants bring. Low skilled jobs pay low wages the immigrant workers are well aware that this entitles them to all the associated benefits you mention and more, they pay very little tax or N.I. and in my experience take more out of the system than they contribute, plus they have access to free schooling, health services etc. no wonder they want to come here is it.
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Post by dutchstokie on Feb 21, 2020 14:46:47 GMT
Lame excuse if you ask me. If you're physically able then you can easily find a job. It may not be your ideal job, but it's a job nevertheless. Temp work, packing crates, picking paints, stocking shelves, bar work, delivering flyers, litter picking, whatever. I'm not counting students, full time carers or disabled people as part of the unemployed. And whilst doing those incredibly low-paid, high-effort jobs, I'm saying they could easily not have time to look for other jobs. Some of those jobs people already do more than one of and can't afford the basics. It's a fine line though, admittedly, between how much we support people in getting jobs that give them enough money, and making sure we don't have millions not bothering to work. I'm sorry fella but I have to respectfully disagree on that……. When I was 18 I held down 3 jobs - night shifts at Platewell in Talke Pits, go to bed for literally a couple of hours, then carpet cleaning for A&M Chem Dry in Sandbach,, then go to bed for literally another couple of hours befor doing bar work in Alsager.....why? Because I could see back then that S-O-T and the surrounding areas had nothing to offer that I was interested in.. I saved up enough money to move down to London and started again WHilst doing all this I STILL found the time to hunt for better work and found it down in the Smoke hence the move. I wish some of the younger generation would wake up and learn that you only get out of life what you put in and if you aint prepared to roll your sleeves up and slug it out then dont sit there with your begging bowl. And dont start with the 'yeah but' and 'its because of the.....that we're in this mess' You make your own luck in this world RANT OVER !!!!!
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Post by foster on Feb 21, 2020 14:47:41 GMT
For every migrant having a job here you can consider a British person sitting at home living off benefits. That also has to be paid for. As for her (I have no idea who she is), I would say that as someone coming from an immigrant background that her view would of course be bias. That is going off the assumption that the British person on benefits would not be on benefits if the migrant was not here. There's no evidence for that. The last rented you've put seems odd to me, her family being immigrants would surely mean she has more knowledge of immigration in this country than someone who's family were only immigrants a few hundred or a thousand years ago? More knowledge in what way? She quotes a report on the benefits of migration so anyone has that knowledge. My point there is that she is never going to be against migration due to her own personal background. This means she is not impartial on the matter.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 14:51:46 GMT
And whilst doing those incredibly low-paid, high-effort jobs, I'm saying they could easily not have time to look for other jobs. Some of those jobs people already do more than one of and can't afford the basics. It's a fine line though, admittedly, between how much we support people in getting jobs that give them enough money, and making sure we don't have millions not bothering to work. I'm sorry fella but I have to respectfully disagree on that……. When I was 18 I held down 3 jobs - night shifts at Platewell in Talke Pits, go to bed for literally a couple of hours, then carpet cleaning for A&M Chem Dry in Sandbach,, then go to bed for literally another couple of hours befor doing bar work in Alsager.....why? Because I could see back then that S-O-T and the surrounding areas had nothing to offer that I was interested in.. I saved up enough money to move down to London and started again WHilst doing all this I STILL found the time to hunt for better work and found it down in the Smoke hence the move. I wish some of the younger generation would wake up and learn that you only get out of life what you put in and if you aint prepared to roll your sleeves up and slug it out then dont sit there with your begging bowl. And dont start with the 'yeah but' and 'its because of the.....that we're in this mess' You make your own luck in this world RANT OVER !!!!! Fair play to you for doing that, but I do not think that is an acceptable message to give people. That is not a healthy lifestyle, nor is it one that I would want to see people have to go through. In short, you should not have had to do that and no-one else should either. You don't make your own luck. There will be plenty of people who did what you did and got nowhere, couldn't move to London, or got sick etc. whilst doing it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 14:52:57 GMT
That is going off the assumption that the British person on benefits would not be on benefits if the migrant was not here. There's no evidence for that. The last rented you've put seems odd to me, her family being immigrants would surely mean she has more knowledge of immigration in this country than someone who's family were only immigrants a few hundred or a thousand years ago? More knowledge in what way? She quotes a report on the benefits of migration so anyone has that knowledge. My point there is that she is never going to be against migration due to her own personal background. This means she is not impartial on the matter. I think that is an unhelpful line to take to be honest. The views of immigrants, of whichever generation, are just as valid on the matter as anyone else's.
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Post by dutchstokie on Feb 21, 2020 15:04:37 GMT
I'm sorry fella but I have to respectfully disagree on that……. When I was 18 I held down 3 jobs - night shifts at Platewell in Talke Pits, go to bed for literally a couple of hours, then carpet cleaning for A&M Chem Dry in Sandbach,, then go to bed for literally another couple of hours befor doing bar work in Alsager.....why? Because I could see back then that S-O-T and the surrounding areas had nothing to offer that I was interested in.. I saved up enough money to move down to London and started again WHilst doing all this I STILL found the time to hunt for better work and found it down in the Smoke hence the move. I wish some of the younger generation would wake up and learn that you only get out of life what you put in and if you aint prepared to roll your sleeves up and slug it out then dont sit there with your begging bowl. And dont start with the 'yeah but' and 'its because of the.....that we're in this mess' You make your own luck in this world RANT OVER !!!!! Fair play to you for doing that, but I do not think that is an acceptable message to give people. That is not a healthy lifestyle, nor is it one that I would want to see people have to go through. In short, you should not have had to do that and no-one else should either. You don't make your own luck. There will be plenty of people who did what you did and got nowhere, couldn't move to London, or got sick etc. whilst doing it. Again fella, with respect, why isnt that an acceptable message to give? The message it says to me is that I was preprared to graft to get to my goal. I did this for 7 months, not for years. People dont HAVE to 'go through it' at all - its a choice, a choice I took on to better myself. Youre taking it literally to heart fella - the point I'm making is: 1.Look at what you have 2.look at what you want 3.How do I get to where I want to be 4.Am I prepared to roll my sleeves up and make sacrifices to come out better in the long run. 5. Get out there and do it. Most people fail at no.4 And yes you do make your own luck in this world - so ner ! (Only joking fella)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 15:07:59 GMT
Ah, the Brit bashing, mildly racist Ash, how she keeps getting these gigs I don't know, they certainly bigged up her CV for the show. Her facts weren't all the details though were they, she mentions migrants paying tax, but how much, as they can claim many benefits, child allowance, child tax credits, housing allowance, income support, carers allowance, employment support, lone parent allowance, disability allowance which way oustrip the tax payments. Different sides of the argument have different views on the financial benefits EU migrants bring. Low skilled jobs pay low wages the immigrant workers are well aware that this entitles them to all the associated benefits you mention and more, they pay very little tax or N.I. and in my experience take more out of the system than they contribute, plus they have access to free schooling, health services etc. no wonder they want to come here is it. That may well be your experience, however the last report submitted on behalf of the government in 2018 showed that on average a migrant contributes £2,300 a year to the economy, or £78,000 over a lifetime. A British national contributes net zero over their lifetime on average. Their contribution would be the equivalent of raising income tax by 5p in the pound.....
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Post by foster on Feb 21, 2020 15:08:13 GMT
More knowledge in what way? She quotes a report on the benefits of migration so anyone has that knowledge. My point there is that she is never going to be against migration due to her own personal background. This means she is not impartial on the matter. I think that is an unhelpful line to take to be honest. The views of immigrants, of whichever generation, are just as valid on the matter as anyone else's. It's all about context and is totally relevant. I don't see how it's unhelpful. It's fact. She would have been better off not saying that she was from an immigrant background. As soon as she said it most people would think 'well then of course she's going to be supportive of immigration isn't she'.
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Post by franklin66 on Feb 21, 2020 15:14:11 GMT
Fair play to you for doing that, but I do not think that is an acceptable message to give people. That is not a healthy lifestyle, nor is it one that I would want to see people have to go through. In short, you should not have had to do that and no-one else should either. You don't make your own luck. There will be plenty of people who did what you did and got nowhere, couldn't move to London, or got sick etc. whilst doing it. Again fella, with respect, why isnt that an acceptable message to give? The message it says to me is that I was preprared to graft to get to my goal. I did this for 7 months, not for years. People dont HAVE to 'go through it' at all - its a choice, a choice I took on to better myself. Youre taking it literally to heart fella - the point I'm making is: 1.Look at what you have 2.look at what you want 3.How do I get to where I want to be 4.Am I prepared to roll my sleeves up and make sacrifices to come out better in the long run. 5. Get out there and do it. Most people fail at no.4 And yes you do make your own luck in this world - so ner ! (Only joking fella) What a dreadful thing to say work hard and graft you're taking the piss it should all be free obviously. Reward the lazy I say the grafters can pay for them 🙄
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Post by franklin66 on Feb 21, 2020 15:18:04 GMT
Low skilled jobs pay low wages the immigrant workers are well aware that this entitles them to all the associated benefits you mention and more, they pay very little tax or N.I. and in my experience take more out of the system than they contribute, plus they have access to free schooling, health services etc. no wonder they want to come here is it. That may well be your experience, however the last report submitted on behalf of the government in 2018 showed that on average a migrant contributes £2,300 a year to the economy, or £78,000 over a lifetime. A British national contributes net zero over their lifetime on average. Their contribution would be the equivalent of raising income tax by 5p in the pound..... Being fair that report does have a large assumption as a caveat i.e £28k Edit: my bad read it wrong although is still used an assumption of a balanced budget.
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Post by yeokel on Feb 21, 2020 15:20:25 GMT
I'm sorry fella but I have to respectfully disagree on that……. When I was 18 I held down 3 jobs - night shifts at Platewell in Talke Pits, go to bed for literally a couple of hours, then carpet cleaning for A&M Chem Dry in Sandbach,, then go to bed for literally another couple of hours befor doing bar work in Alsager.....why? Because I could see back then that S-O-T and the surrounding areas had nothing to offer that I was interested in.. I saved up enough money to move down to London and started again WHilst doing all this I STILL found the time to hunt for better work and found it down in the Smoke hence the move. I wish some of the younger generation would wake up and learn that you only get out of life what you put in and if you aint prepared to roll your sleeves up and slug it out then dont sit there with your begging bowl. And dont start with the 'yeah but' and 'its because of the.....that we're in this mess' You make your own luck in this world RANT OVER !!!!! Fair play to you for doing that, but I do not think that is an acceptable message to give people. That is not a healthy lifestyle, nor is it one that I would want to see people have to go through. In short, you should not have had to do that and no-one else should either. You don't make your own luck. There will be plenty of people who did what you did and got nowhere, couldn't move to London, or got sick etc. whilst doing it. “ You don't make your own luck.” Lil, that’s just plain wrong. You DO make your own luck by putting yourself in to a position to take advantage of any lucky breaks or opportunities that may come along. “You make your own luck” is just another way of saying that you are, to some extent, a master of your own destiny and if you work hard to put yourself in positions to take advantage of opportunities which may come along, you are likely to benefit from those opportunities. Do you not agree with that?
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Feb 21, 2020 15:35:17 GMT
Fair play to you for doing that, but I do not think that is an acceptable message to give people. That is not a healthy lifestyle, nor is it one that I would want to see people have to go through. In short, you should not have had to do that and no-one else should either. You don't make your own luck. There will be plenty of people who did what you did and got nowhere, couldn't move to London, or got sick etc. whilst doing it. Again fella, with respect, why isnt that an acceptable message to give? The message it says to me is that I was preprared to graft to get to my goal. I did this for 7 months, not for years. People dont HAVE to 'go through it' at all - its a choice, a choice I took on to better myself. Youre taking it literally to heart fella - the point I'm making is: 1.Look at what you have 2.look at what you want 3.How do I get to where I want to be 4.Am I prepared to roll my sleeves up and make sacrifices to come out better in the long run. 5. Get out there and do it. Most people fail at no.4 And yes you do make your own luck in this world - so ner ! (Only joking fella)
Totally agree with this.
I got a degree, worked for over 10 years in the same place working from the literally the lowest postion when i first got there to end up being in management, then got laid off about 10 years ago. Couldn't find another job anywhere in the same industry (couldn't even get far lower paid jobs in the same industry as they saw me as "too qualified" i.e. you'll piss off as soon as someone offers you something better).
Ended up ringing every factory in the surrounding 20 miles for jobs, nothing (students are lower paid, that's how businesses make profit...it's life). Finally got a job temping on minimum wage whilst also working nights at a pub Why? Because i had a family to support and that requires finances and TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN LIFE. Plugged away at that for a few months whilst looking around in the little spare time i did have, ended up in a completely different industry (being a "newbie" somewhere in your mid-30s and starting at the bottom rung when you used to be management isn't fun, is a hell of learning curve and certainly builds character) where i still am, and am now far better paid than i ever was beforehand.
The message that life isn't easy and you need to work hard for what you want, aren't just good messages for the young (or anybody for that matter) to learn, they're ESSENTIAL! Doing it also gives you far more pride and feeling of self-worth than having it just handed to you.
Having them growing up to think that life is easy, just work hard at school and everything else afterwards will be a doddle and magicaly fall into place is a blatant lie and not in any way preparing them for the realities they'll have to face when they fly the nest. Giving them THAT message is downright irrepsonsible in society and as a parent IMHO. Our job as parents is to put our kids into a position so that when they become an adult, they are able to live independently in this shithole of a world and be as prepared as possible for the things they may encounter in life. Teaching them that they shoudn't have to work their asses off to get something out of life does nothing but set them up to fail, and then suffer from far more stress and anxiety than they would do if they'd been told the truth, as they're totally unprepared for what real life is.
Fraise seems to be talking about what messages we should or shouldn't need to give people in an ideal world......we don't live in one. Never have and never will, so dealing with the reality is far more practical and massively more important than dealing with a theoretical ideal.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 21, 2020 15:59:54 GMT
More knowledge in what way? She quotes a report on the benefits of migration so anyone has that knowledge. My point there is that she is never going to be against migration due to her own personal background. This means she is not impartial on the matter. I think that is an unhelpful line to take to be honest. The views of immigrants, of whichever generation, are just as valid on the matter as anyone else's. For me part of the trouble is Lil that if Dutch's philosophy isn't correct, which cam also be interpreted as ' work as hard as you can , aim as high as you can , don't give up"....then the message ( that Labour SEEM to be giving) is change everything to suit me , it's not my fault , the system is wrong, it's the others, I give up" Funnily enough I've worked with many disabled people and two in particular who were totally confined to electric wheelchairs were determined to not let their disability get in the way of their aspirations....inspirational but the difference was attitude not circumstances. Of course life can be a struggle and it is difficult, some make not make it in the way they want BUT the CONSTANT message seems to be one of hopelessness , no aspiration. Actually most of the working class ARE ignoring Labour and working hard just to make ends meet.....and this isn't to say " therefore you are right ...things must change" ...of course we constantly need change and challenge the government but Labour inadvertently are creating a culture of dependency and helplessness...been said many a time but social security was meant as a safety net not a lifestyle choice.....I can understand Labour having aspirations( that's what I've been suggesting,) but they also need to get real, breakdown their vision into concrete achievable policies but most of all ...listen to the working class and come up with a credible leader....I think they are failing in all areas.
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Post by followyoudown on Feb 21, 2020 16:22:02 GMT
Low skilled jobs pay low wages the immigrant workers are well aware that this entitles them to all the associated benefits you mention and more, they pay very little tax or N.I. and in my experience take more out of the system than they contribute, plus they have access to free schooling, health services etc. no wonder they want to come here is it. That may well be your experience, however the last report submitted on behalf of the government in 2018 showed that on average a migrant contributes £2,300 a year to the economy, or £78,000 over a lifetime. A British national contributes net zero over their lifetime on average. Their contribution would be the equivalent of raising income tax by 5p in the pound..... That was only for migrants arriving in a particular year from memory though wasn't it ? And it is based on the assumption a large % only come here to work and return home to grow old when they might otherwise begin to use more services like the NHS etc. The real truth is that we are not yet anywhere near when the immigration increase under Blair has started to feed into the pension cost etc all of those people who paid in will quite rightly be entitled to some sort of pension from the uk taxpayer so I am not sure I would put too much credence on those figures. Like I said no doubt the vast majority of immigrants contribute but all this talk of contributing more than british nationals seems to be a non like for like comparison.
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 21, 2020 16:40:00 GMT
That may well be your experience, however the last report submitted on behalf of the government in 2018 showed that on average a migrant contributes £2,300 a year to the economy, or £78,000 over a lifetime. A British national contributes net zero over their lifetime on average. Their contribution would be the equivalent of raising income tax by 5p in the pound..... That was only for migrants arriving in a particular year from memory though wasn't it ? And it is based on the assumption a large % only come here to work and return home to grow old when they might otherwise begin to use more services like the NHS etc. The real truth is that we are not yet anywhere near when the immigration increase under Blair has started to feed into the pension cost etc all of those people who paid in will quite rightly be entitled to some sort of pension from the uk taxpayer so I am not sure I would put too much credence on those figures. Like I said no doubt the vast majority of immigrants contribute but all this talk of contributing more than british nationals seems to be a non like for like comparison. It's bull shit I have first hand experience in welfare to work. You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all the time, I have a feeling the true extent of this will be exposed under this government.
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Post by followyoudown on Feb 21, 2020 17:15:10 GMT
That was only for migrants arriving in a particular year from memory though wasn't it ? And it is based on the assumption a large % only come here to work and return home to grow old when they might otherwise begin to use more services like the NHS etc. The real truth is that we are not yet anywhere near when the immigration increase under Blair has started to feed into the pension cost etc all of those people who paid in will quite rightly be entitled to some sort of pension from the uk taxpayer so I am not sure I would put too much credence on those figures. Like I said no doubt the vast majority of immigrants contribute but all this talk of contributing more than british nationals seems to be a non like for like comparison. It's bull shit I have first hand experience in welfare to work. You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all the time, I have a feeling the true extent of this will be exposed under this government. I wouldn't say it BS it's true in the same way that statistically hospitals are the most dangerous places to be as more people die there then anywhere else its just not the whole truth. I don't have a problem with immigration if you want to contribute the more the merrier, its just this nonsense that immigrants contribute more (or less) than british nationals, we all pay the same rates of tax / ni based on salary but the idea that they contribute more seems based on the idea that immigrants come over here to work, then head home to grow old / ill / die.
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Post by mrcoke on Feb 21, 2020 17:38:21 GMT
I'm sorry fella but I have to respectfully disagree on that……. When I was 18 I held down 3 jobs - night shifts at Platewell in Talke Pits, go to bed for literally a couple of hours, then carpet cleaning for A&M Chem Dry in Sandbach,, then go to bed for literally another couple of hours befor doing bar work in Alsager.....why? Because I could see back then that S-O-T and the surrounding areas had nothing to offer that I was interested in.. I saved up enough money to move down to London and started again WHilst doing all this I STILL found the time to hunt for better work and found it down in the Smoke hence the move. I wish some of the younger generation would wake up and learn that you only get out of life what you put in and if you aint prepared to roll your sleeves up and slug it out then dont sit there with your begging bowl. And dont start with the 'yeah but' and 'its because of the.....that we're in this mess' You make your own luck in this world RANT OVER !!!!! Fair play to you for doing that, but I do not think that is an acceptable message to give people. That is not a healthy lifestyle, nor is it one that I would want to see people have to go through. In short, you should not have had to do that and no-one else should either. You don't make your own luck. There will be plenty of people who did what you did and got nowhere, couldn't move to London, or got sick etc. whilst doing it. Dutch is right. You are talking rubbish. Hard work never hurt anyone. I worked hard by choice for for high living standard. You create your own opportunities in life, not depending on luck, but finding work and the giving 100% effort. I worked in my school days at Embury's bakery on Talke Rd. , and other bakeries, security companies, a pot bank in Fenton, worked through my university years doing a 24 hour shift each week end at one time, even giving my Mum money for my keep for a period. I had a choice of jobs when I got my degree, worked in North Wales, South Wales, North-East, South Wales, North-East doing numerous jobs for numerous companies with never being out of work. Today I am retired and received my tax statement this morning from HMC&E telling me how much tax I have to pay out of my pensions, to support the idle sods who can't get off their backsides, RANT OVER!!!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 21, 2020 17:55:16 GMT
The immigrants who do care work/service industry/ waiting on/ seasonal fruit picking work extremely hard and I've always found that particular group pleasant and positive. The issues rest either with our own people who are not prepared to do such work or the system which does not make it viable, our own people who intend to play the system and those immigrants who intend the same. Unfortunately debates have to take place with reference to " groupings"...it's not really possible to generalise
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