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Post by partickpotter on Feb 12, 2020 6:53:27 GMT
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Post by werrington on Feb 12, 2020 7:01:39 GMT
The call for a united Ireland has just revved up
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Post by bathstoke on Feb 12, 2020 7:01:49 GMT
The same as Bonzo spend & tax plan...
this is just the natural progression of Brexit.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 12, 2020 7:26:16 GMT
I think the latter, with covert EU support. Similarly in future years the Spanish claim for Gibraltar will gain momentum. In the case of NI arguably two issues will emerge. A United Ireland can't be achieved by democratic means without the consent of the Northern Irish....I seem to recall that the Protestant/ Catholic population balance is slowly changing ( roughly equal united/ independent). Depending upon their proven degree of support the EU could be accused of interfering in another country. Not that I think that Sinn Feinn will play s part in the government at the moment. I think a further election is more likely...at which Sinn Fein may well gain more support. The Irish question has always been an Irish/ UK issue not an EU issue |
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Post by elystokie on Feb 12, 2020 10:33:45 GMT
I think the latter, with covert EU support. Similarly in future years the Spanish claim for Gibraltar will gain momentum. In the case of NI arguably two issues will emerge. A United Ireland can't be achieved by democratic means without the consent of the Northern Irish....I seem to recall that the Protestant/ Catholic population balance is slowly changing ( roughly equal united/ independent). Depending upon their proven degree of support the EU could be accused of interfering in another country. Not that I think that Sinn Feinn will play s part in the government at the moment. I think a further election is more likely...at which Sinn Fein may well gain more support. The Irish question has always been an Irish/ UK issue not an EU issue Hopefully when Spain do focus their attention on Gibraltar other nations will point to their hypocrisy with respect to Ceuta and Melilla in Morocco. They, understandably, keep very, very quiet about that from what I've seen. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 12, 2020 10:40:39 GMT
I think the latter, with covert EU support. Similarly in future years the Spanish claim for Gibraltar will gain momentum. In the case of NI arguably two issues will emerge. A United Ireland can't be achieved by democratic means without the consent of the Northern Irish....I seem to recall that the Protestant/ Catholic population balance is slowly changing ( roughly equal united/ independent). Depending upon their proven degree of support the EU could be accused of interfering in another country. Not that I think that Sinn Feinn will play s part in the government at the moment. I think a further election is more likely...at which Sinn Fein may well gain more support. The Irish question has always been an Irish/ UK issue not an EU issue Hopefully when Spain do focus their attention on Gibraltar other nations will point to their hypocrisy with respect to Ceuta and Melilla in Morocco. They, understandably, keep very, very quiet about that from what I've seen. I know what you mean.....it's funny how they somehow sideline that. Unfortunately I think that we ARE in times when nations HAVE got to put their own interests first or we may be taken as fools AND try to genuinely address global issues such as plastics in the oceans on a global scale because that IS part of self interest as well as global. |
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Post by salopstick on Feb 12, 2020 10:53:08 GMT
I can see a lot more intergration but the Protestants will never agree on an united ireland
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Post by Eggybread on Feb 12, 2020 11:13:05 GMT
I can see a lot more intergration but the Protestants will never agree on an united ireland What could they do about it if they vote to reunite Ireland? |
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Post by bathstoke on Feb 12, 2020 11:25:26 GMT
I can see a lot more intergration but the Protestants will never agree on an united ireland What could they do about it if they vote to reunite Ireland? I guess the same as those what voted Remain... |
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Post by riverman on Feb 12, 2020 11:51:51 GMT
There could also be a lot of protestant remainers who would rather be part of a United Ireland if it meant staying in the EU.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 12, 2020 12:13:08 GMT
There could also be a lot of protestant remainers who would rather be part of a United Ireland if it meant staying in the EU. Excellent point in my opinion |
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Post by thevoid on Feb 12, 2020 12:23:38 GMT
Ireland should be united as one nation.
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Post by salopstick on Feb 12, 2020 15:17:29 GMT
I can see a lot more intergration but the Protestants will never agree on an united ireland What could they do about it if they vote to reunite Ireland? It will be a funny vote It’s not as straightforward as yes or no because the populations of the two countries are different. The amount of people who could vote yes in ROI could mean the NI vote is irrelevant So yes Irish integration but they are decades away from a vote |
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Post by yeokel on Feb 12, 2020 16:23:02 GMT
What could they do about it if they vote to reunite Ireland? It will be a funny vote It’s not as straightforward as yes or no because the populations of the two countries are different. The amount of people who could vote yes in ROI could mean the NI vote is irrelevant So yes Irish integration but they are decades away from a vote " The amount of people who could vote yes in ROI could mean the NI vote is irrelevant " An interesting parallel with the England//Scotland EU referendum in fact. And should the Ireland//N.Ireland vote actually be Ireland//UK as it is of concern to all of us in the UK, one way or another. But, of course, N.Ireland is nothing to do with GB so perhaps we shouldn’t have a say anyway? Hmmmm – Complicated! |
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 12, 2020 16:34:42 GMT
I can see a lot more intergration but the Protestants will never agree on an united ireland What could they do about it if they vote to reunite Ireland? Exactly the same level of shit and violence and indiscriminate murder That the republicans have managed in the last hundred or so years Anyone who thinks certain sections of the unionists will ever quietly except rule from dublin is living in cloud cuckoo land |
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Feb 12, 2020 16:49:21 GMT
I'd guess that most Proddy remainers would still rather be part of a UK outside the EU than part of an Ireland within it.
I'd put money on it.
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Post by georgieboy52 on Feb 12, 2020 16:53:07 GMT
I'd guess that most Proddy remainers would still rather be part of a UK outside the EU than part of an Ireland within it. I'd put money on it. And you would win your bet. |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Feb 12, 2020 17:02:34 GMT
It will be a funny vote It’s not as straightforward as yes or no because the populations of the two countries are different. The amount of people who could vote yes in ROI could mean the NI vote is irrelevant So yes Irish integration but they are decades away from a vote " The amount of people who could vote yes in ROI could mean the NI vote is irrelevant " An interesting parallel with the England//Scotland EU referendum in fact. And should the Ireland//N.Ireland vote actually be Ireland//UK as it is of concern to all of us in the UK, one way or another. But, of course, N.Ireland is nothing to do with GB so perhaps we shouldn’t have a say anyway? Hmmmm – Complicated! We wouldn't have a say, the legislation in place as part of the Northern Ireland Act allows the Secretary of State for NI to call a referendum when "it appears likely the majority would express a wish for Northern Ireland to cease being a part of the United Kingdom." The said referendum would then be subject to section 1 which explicitly says that Northern Ireland would cease to be part of the United Kingdom if the majority of NI's population votes for it. Then it depends on the vote in the Republic which would likely be a formality and then a negotiation between HM Government and the Dail to unite the isle. The key thing however is that vote is purely at the discretion of the secretary of state for NI and by virtue of that, the government. |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Feb 12, 2020 17:11:48 GMT
What could they do about it if they vote to reunite Ireland? It will be a funny vote It’s not as straightforward as yes or no because the populations of the two countries are different. The amount of people who could vote yes in ROI could mean the NI vote is irrelevant So yes Irish integration but they are decades away from a vote It would likely be a border poll for NI and then a Constitutional Referendum in the Republic, the working group on this are pretty certain it shouldn't be a single poll for the whole island for the reason you highlight. The constitution of the Republic says pretty clearly the wish to unite must be recognised in both Jurisdictions of the island. So the single poll and thus the population effect is a very remote possibility. |
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 12, 2020 17:19:52 GMT
Apart from the terrorist sympathisers I can't see much appetite amongst Southern Ireland politicians for a united Ireland
Because there is one fundamental problem southern Ireland simply cannot afford the extensive welfare bill in the North
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Post by yeokel on Feb 12, 2020 17:21:01 GMT
" The amount of people who could vote yes in ROI could mean the NI vote is irrelevant " An interesting parallel with the England//Scotland EU referendum in fact. And should the Ireland//N.Ireland vote actually be Ireland//UK as it is of concern to all of us in the UK, one way or another. But, of course, N.Ireland is nothing to do with GB so perhaps we shouldn’t have a say anyway? Hmmmm – Complicated! We wouldn't have a say, the legislation in place as part of the Northern Ireland Act allows the Secretary of State for NI to call a referendum when "it appears likely the majority would express a wish for Northern Ireland to cease being a part of the United Kingdom." The said referendum would then be subject to section 1 which explicitly says that Northern Ireland would cease to be part of the United Kingdom if the majority of NI's population votes for it. Then it depends on the vote in the Republic which would likely be a formality and then a negotiation between HM Government and the Dail to unite the isle. The key thing however is that vote is purely at the discretion of the secretary of state for NI and by virtue of that, the government. Interesting. So, if NI voted to leave the UK, presumably the UK would cease to exist and Eng, Sco & Wal would become/remain GB? |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Feb 12, 2020 17:22:26 GMT
We wouldn't have a say, the legislation in place as part of the Northern Ireland Act allows the Secretary of State for NI to call a referendum when "it appears likely the majority would express a wish for Northern Ireland to cease being a part of the United Kingdom." The said referendum would then be subject to section 1 which explicitly says that Northern Ireland would cease to be part of the United Kingdom if the majority of NI's population votes for it. Then it depends on the vote in the Republic which would likely be a formality and then a negotiation between HM Government and the Dail to unite the isle. The key thing however is that vote is purely at the discretion of the secretary of state for NI and by virtue of that, the government. Interesting. So, if NI voted to leave the UK, presumably the UK would cease to exist and Eng, Sco & Wal would become/remain GB? It would just become the Kingdom of Great Britain like it was before 1801. So yes, essentially. |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Feb 12, 2020 17:26:00 GMT
Apart from the terrorist sympathisers I can't see much appetite amongst Southern Ireland politicians for a united Ireland Because there is one fundamental problem southern Ireland simply cannot afford the extensive welfare bill in the North I would say the electoral success of Sinn Fein would make Fine Gael and Fianna Fail much more open to the idea. Similar to how UKIP’s success arguably forced the hand of Conservatives to call the Brexit Referendum. |
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Post by salopstick on Feb 12, 2020 18:31:26 GMT
It will be a funny vote It’s not as straightforward as yes or no because the populations of the two countries are different. The amount of people who could vote yes in ROI could mean the NI vote is irrelevant So yes Irish integration but they are decades away from a vote " The amount of people who could vote yes in ROI could mean the NI vote is irrelevant " An interesting parallel with the England//Scotland EU referendum in fact. And should the Ireland//N.Ireland vote actually be Ireland//UK as it is of concern to all of us in the UK, one way or another. But, of course, N.Ireland is nothing to do with GB so perhaps we shouldn’t have a say anyway? Hmmmm – Complicated! It would have to be an all Ireland vote only. We don’t have a say in Scottish IndyRef. The EU vote was for the UK so a slightly different question. With Ireland you have to ask the north do they want to leave the UK. same as Scotland. It would then be up to the then independent north to decide if ROI willing do they want to join up. I think we are a long way from NI wanting to breakaway from the UK and the government giving them a vote. It would be an independent NI joining ROI When we see a successful Brexit you may even see the Scottish IndyRef lose a bit of momentum |
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Feb 13, 2020 17:03:08 GMT
I think the latter, with covert EU support. Similarly in future years the Spanish claim for Gibraltar will gain momentum. In the case of NI arguably two issues will emerge. A United Ireland can't be achieved by democratic means without the consent of the Northern Irish....I seem to recall that the Protestant/ Catholic population balance is slowly changing ( roughly equal united/ independent). Depending upon their proven degree of support the EU could be accused of interfering in another country. Not that I think that Sinn Feinn will play s part in the government at the moment. I think a further election is more likely...at which Sinn Fein may well gain more support.
The Irish question has always been an Irish/ UK issue not an EU issue I think you can guarantee that, all things being equal, a future election in the republic would result in a big gain in seats for Sinn Fein, given that they fielded far fewer candidates in last week's election than the two traditional major parties did. Given also the minimal support for the Labour party in the Republic, Sinn Fein pretty well fly the flag for left of centre voters. How big they will become is anyone's guess but (unless something happens to interrupt their momentum), the next Republic election will almost certainly see Sinn Fein with the largest number of seats of any party. In Northern Ireland the 2 Unionist parties now have less than half the votes of Sinn Fein and the other left and centre left parties including the Alliance Party. I suspect it will be difficult to avoid a referendum on a United Ireland for very long. The Tory government can't, unlike in Scotland, point to a "once in a generation" referendum a few years ago - AND the Northern Ireland Peace agreement provides for a United Ireland/Independence Referendum if there is a demand for it. If there was one in, say, the next 5 years, I suspect that the United Ireland option might win. The chances of this have almost certainly been enhanced by Brexit and even more by the bizarre agreement that Boris went for of an effective Customs Border between NI and Great Britain in the middle of the Irish Sea. How the Republic will feel about an United Ireland will be interesting. In trade terms they would love it, whether they would love having a million or so grumpy Unionists being added to their population is another matter!  |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 13, 2020 17:23:38 GMT
I think the latter, with covert EU support. Similarly in future years the Spanish claim for Gibraltar will gain momentum. In the case of NI arguably two issues will emerge. A United Ireland can't be achieved by democratic means without the consent of the Northern Irish....I seem to recall that the Protestant/ Catholic population balance is slowly changing ( roughly equal united/ independent). Depending upon their proven degree of support the EU could be accused of interfering in another country. Not that I think that Sinn Feinn will play s part in the government at the moment. I think a further election is more likely...at which Sinn Fein may well gain more support.
The Irish question has always been an Irish/ UK issue not an EU issue I think you can guarantee that, all things being equal, a future election in the republic would result in a big gain in seats for Sinn Fein, given that they fielded far fewer candidates in last week's election than the two traditional major parties did. Given also the minimal support for the Labour party in the Republic, Sinn Fein pretty well fly the flag for left of centre voters. How big they will become is anyone's guess but (unless something happens to interrupt their momentum), the next Republic election will almost certainly see Sinn Fein with the largest number of seats of any party. In Northern Ireland the 2 Unionist parties now have less than half the votes of Sinn Fein and the other left and centre left parties including the Alliance Party. I suspect it will be difficult to avoid a referendum on a United Ireland for very long. The Tory government can't, unlike in Scotland, point to a "once in a generation" referendum a few years ago - AND the Northern Ireland Peace agreement provides for a United Ireland/Independence Referendum if there is a demand for it. If there was one in, say, the next 5 years, I suspect that the United Ireland option might win. The chances of this have almost certainly been enhanced by Brexit and even more by the bizarre agreement that Boris went for of an effective Customs Border between NI and Great Britain in the middle of the Irish Sea. How the Republic will feel about an United Ireland will be interesting. In trade terms they would love it, whether they would love having a million or so grumpy Unionists being added to their population is another matter! Personally Lake I think that the Republic would decisively go for Unity.....I would not have thought that NI would go for it....I think that being part of the UK is a higher priority than trade BUT obviously I don't know the numbers or the change in numbers...and I guess other unknowns could come into play....as you say ...how the actual border really spans out, population change, the state of the EU...and political pressure. |
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Feb 13, 2020 17:40:00 GMT
I think you can guarantee that, all things being equal, a future election in the republic would result in a big gain in seats for Sinn Fein, given that they fielded far fewer candidates in last week's election than the two traditional major parties did. Given also the minimal support for the Labour party in the Republic, Sinn Fein pretty well fly the flag for left of centre voters. How big they will become is anyone's guess but (unless something happens to interrupt their momentum), the next Republic election will almost certainly see Sinn Fein with the largest number of seats of any party. In Northern Ireland the 2 Unionist parties now have less than half the votes of Sinn Fein and the other left and centre left parties including the Alliance Party. I suspect it will be difficult to avoid a referendum on a United Ireland for very long. The Tory government can't, unlike in Scotland, point to a "once in a generation" referendum a few years ago - AND the Northern Ireland Peace agreement provides for a United Ireland/Independence Referendum if there is a demand for it. If there was one in, say, the next 5 years, I suspect that the United Ireland option might win. The chances of this have almost certainly been enhanced by Brexit and even more by the bizarre agreement that Boris went for of an effective Customs Border between NI and Great Britain in the middle of the Irish Sea. How the Republic will feel about an United Ireland will be interesting. In trade terms they would love it, whether they would love having a million or so grumpy Unionists being added to their population is another matter! Personally Lake I think that the Republic would decisively go for Unity..... I would not have thought that NI would go for it....I think that being part of the UK is a higher priority than trade BUT obviously I don't know the numbers or the change in numbers...and I guess other unknowns could come into play....as you say ...how the actual border really spans out, population change, the state of the EU...and political pressure. 10 years ago I would certainly have agreed with you about NI voting for Unity. But, I reckon the fairly significant drop off in Unionist votes in recent years has made it less likely. Don't forget that NI voted to remain in the EU even though Unionists are wholeheartedly in favour of Brexit. The other examples where Unionists are clearly out of step with the majority, is in the area of same sex marriage, legalisation of most abortions etc. It is only the rather unusual NI constitution which enabled Unionists to block both of these things before power sharing broke down a few years ago. I have relatives in both communities in the north. Amongst my Protestant relatives, until recently all voted Unionist - now about half say they vote for either the Alliance Party or the SDLP and a few others don't vote at all they are so despairing of some of the Unionist politicians. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 13, 2020 17:51:40 GMT
Personally Lake I think that the Republic would decisively go for Unity..... I would not have thought that NI would go for it....I think that being part of the UK is a higher priority than trade BUT obviously I don't know the numbers or the change in numbers...and I guess other unknowns could come into play....as you say ...how the actual border really spans out, population change, the state of the EU...and political pressure. 10 years ago I would certainly have agreed with you about NI voting for Unity. But, I reckon the fairly significant drop off in Unionist votes in recent years has made it less likely. Don't forget that NI voted to remain in the EU even though Unionists are wholeheartedly in favour of Brexit. The other examples where Unionists are clearly out of step with the majority, is in the area of same sex marriage, legalisation of most abortions etc. It is only the rather unusual NI constitution which enabled Unionists to block both of these things before power sharing broke down a few years ago. I have relatives in both communities in the north. Amongst my Protestant relatives, until recently all voted Unionist - now about half say they vote for either the Alliance Party or the SDLP and a few others don't vote at all they are so despairing of some of the Unionist politicians. You could very well be right then Lake...you know more about it than me. Wizard also has connections/ an interest I believe....i suppose that whatever the future holds....let's hope it's peaceful |
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Post by swampmongrel on Feb 13, 2020 19:30:59 GMT
10 years ago I would certainly have agreed with you about NI voting for Unity. But, I reckon the fairly significant drop off in Unionist votes in recent years has made it less likely. Don't forget that NI voted to remain in the EU even though Unionists are wholeheartedly in favour of Brexit. The other examples where Unionists are clearly out of step with the majority, is in the area of same sex marriage, legalisation of most abortions etc. It is only the rather unusual NI constitution which enabled Unionists to block both of these things before power sharing broke down a few years ago. I have relatives in both communities in the north. Amongst my Protestant relatives, until recently all voted Unionist - now about half say they vote for either the Alliance Party or the SDLP and a few others don't vote at all they are so despairing of some of the Unionist politicians. You could very well be right then Lake...you know more about it than me. Wizard also has connections/ an interest I believe....i suppose that whatever the future holds....let's hope it's peaceful I’d be amazed if a border poll took place without any violence. Sadly. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 13, 2020 20:44:54 GMT
Personally Lake I think that the Republic would decisively go for Unity..... I would not have thought that NI would go for it....I think that being part of the UK is a higher priority than trade BUT obviously I don't know the numbers or the change in numbers...and I guess other unknowns could come into play....as you say ...how the actual border really spans out, population change, the state of the EU...and political pressure. 10 years ago I would certainly have agreed with you about NI voting for Unity. But, I reckon the fairly significant drop off in Unionist votes in recent years has made it less likely. Don't forget that NI voted to remain in the EU even though Unionists are wholeheartedly in favour of Brexit. The other examples where Unionists are clearly out of step with the majority, is in the area of same sex marriage, legalisation of most abortions etc. It is only the rather unusual NI constitution which enabled Unionists to block both of these things before power sharing broke down a few years ago. I have relatives in both communities in the north. Amongst my Protestant relatives, until recently all voted Unionist - now about half say they vote for either the Alliance Party or the SDLP and a few others don't vote at all they are so despairing of some of the Unionist politicians. Land, This programme was on tonight.very interesting. Nowhere as clear cut as I thought and saying virtually what you said, particularly Roy Foster. www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000f6c1It did say that there are some IRA members in the background of Sinn Fein but they had no desire whatsoever to return to violence. |
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