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Post by Pugsley on Jan 20, 2020 18:28:54 GMT
Malcolm's about the only thing positive about our club these days The problem is people want to point the finger, they want to know who is to blame and they want someone to suffer in return for how they've suffered. This leads to scapegoating, at first it was Cartwright but he's gone and things are still a mess, now it's Scholes. The issue is we are only assuming these people are to blame and we could be forcing useful people out of the club at a time we desperately need stability. Yes, we need to keep the person who has played a major role in destabilising the club to keep it stable... We need a new person to bring everyone together surely?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 18:32:03 GMT
Malcolm's about the only thing positive about our club these days The problem is people want to point the finger, they want to know who is to blame and they want someone to suffer in return for how they've suffered. This leads to scapegoating, at first it was Cartwright but he's gone and things are still a mess, now it's Scholes. The issue is we are only assuming these people are to blame and we could be forcing useful people out of the club at a time we desperately need stability. Yes, we need to keep the person who has played a major role in destabilising the club to keep it stable... We need a new person to bring everyone together surely? He also oversaw a period of great stability and solid signings too. I'm not saying he's fantastic, and how could you not be concerned when we're in this position but to just go after Scholes and blame everything on him devalues the very valuable discussion on exactly what is his fault. Because I wish it was as simple as it's all his fault, but it's likely just not the case.
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Post by Pugsley on Jan 20, 2020 18:34:19 GMT
Yes, we need to keep the person who has played a major role in destabilising the club to keep it stable... We need a new person to bring everyone together surely? He also oversaw a period of great stability and solid signings too. I'm not saying he's fantastic, and how could you not be concerned when we're in this position but to just go after Scholes and blame everything on him devalues the very valuable discussion on exactly what is his fault. Because I wish it was as simple as it's all his fault, but it's likely just not the case. What isn't his fault, either totally or partly?
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 20, 2020 18:34:37 GMT
Like I put above I’ve no inkling to join the council so I won’t criticise it They give up their own time without payment to sit on it If people feel so strongly about what they should be doing, asking and in what direction they should head in those meetings next time there’s an election put your names forward It’s that simple Can't argue with your point at all. But the point is if the club did communicate effectively there probably wouldn't even be the need for a supporters council in the first place. I don't think the average Stoke fan is expecting much, just a bit of clarity so we can all stop feeling like we are going insane. It would actually make the clubs life easier in the long run. I think there is always a need for a proper process of structured dialogue between a football club and it’s fans, even when it’s communicating very well . In our experience the two usually go together. Clubs which do structured dialogue well also tend to communicate well outside that process.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 18:39:25 GMT
He also oversaw a period of great stability and solid signings too. I'm not saying he's fantastic, and how could you not be concerned when we're in this position but to just go after Scholes and blame everything on him devalues the very valuable discussion on exactly what is his fault. Because I wish it was as simple as it's all his fault, but it's likely just not the case. What isn't his fault, either totally or partly? The point I'm making is we can only speculate and to blame everything on him devalues the debate and makes the fans look petty and vindictive, which only some are
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Post by werrington on Jan 20, 2020 18:42:39 GMT
Like I put above I’ve no inkling to join the council so I won’t criticise it They give up their own time without payment to sit on it If people feel so strongly about what they should be doing, asking and in what direction they should head in those meetings next time there’s an election put your names forward It’s that simple It's not that simple at all. It's like saying if you're not happy with the job your MP is doing then why don't you become an MP. These people were voted in (although we don't know how many votes!) so they surely should expect some kind of questioning. What are they expecting - tea and biscuits every month and a friendly chat.... Nonsense MPs are well payed and they do it for a career and the chances of becoming one using your scenario are practically zero The council do it for nothing, give us their own time and anybody off here can potentially join it Get thee sen up for election and get on the panel, it really is that simple
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Post by followyoudown on Jan 20, 2020 18:45:59 GMT
It’s not a “fact” it’s hypothetical speculation which I personally doubt if only because the industry trade magazine gave him CEO of the year not long ago but I think it’s irrelevant speculation. You can of course also find examples of clubs who change their CEO who didn’t do better and sometimes did worse so I don’t think you can use that as evidence. I’m not sure from your reference to changing the Chairman whether or not you are advocating that the current owners sell the club ? K I included the word Chairman because it basically appears like the Chairman at Swansea assumes the duties that most people would describe as being those of a Chief Exec. Name me any Chief Exec or similar position in ANY industry in the world who is still in situ after similair decline to that seen at Stoke in under 3 years? It simply doesn't happen. It's been catastrophic and in virtually every other organisition on planet earth, they have something called accountability, that's a concept that simply doesn't exist at SCFC. For someone who claims not to be a mouthpiece for Scholes, you certainly display a keen desire to defend his honour, Malcolm For someone Jeremy Corbyn It's a false comparison the decline at Stoke is entirely due to the non performance of numerous players and managers, the awful matchday experience and general incompetence remains pretty much unchanged apart from less people. The idea that people persist with that Scholes had a significant role in identifying the players, deciding the transfer fee or choosing the managers is for the birds his role would be to cost it and probably negotiate within a board approved range on fees / wages.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 20, 2020 18:46:10 GMT
I think it would be useful for the SC to ask for a clear clarification of exactly who is responsible for what at the football club and where different types of key decision are taken. This would be a more constructive approach than just blaming TS for everything.
I would also like the Club Chairman to attend the SC. I don’t think that’s too much to ask a few times a year given the impotence of the owners in key decisions and what’s happened in recent years.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 20, 2020 18:49:49 GMT
He also oversaw a period of great stability and solid signings too. I'm not saying he's fantastic, and how could you not be concerned when we're in this position but to just go after Scholes and blame everything on him devalues the very valuable discussion on exactly what is his fault. Because I wish it was as simple as it's all his fault, but it's likely just not the case. What isn't his fault, either totally or partly? Until you know a lot more than I certainly do about the decision making processes at the club it’s impossible to answer that question
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 20, 2020 18:51:49 GMT
I think it would be useful for the SC to ask for a clear clarification of exactly who is responsible for what at the football club and where different types of key decision are taken. This would be a more constructive approach than just blaming TS for everything. I would also like the Club Chairman to attend the SC. I don’t think that’s too much to ask a few times a year given the impotence of the owners in key decisions and what’s happened in recent years. Lol. “ Impotence “ in my post should have read “ importance “ 😄 Predictive text 😡
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 20, 2020 18:55:43 GMT
Gonna get off this warm , free coach ( thanks TS 😄 ) outside the Hawthorns now, so signing off and thanks for the discussion 👍 . Let’s hope the lads can cause an upset tonight. That’ll warm us all up. Goaarn Stoke.
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Post by adi on Jan 20, 2020 18:56:57 GMT
I think it would be useful for the SC to ask for a clear clarification of exactly who is responsible for what at the football club and where different types of key decision are taken. This would be a more constructive approach than just blaming TS for everything. I would also like the Club Chairman to attend the SC. I don’t think that’s too much to ask a few times a year given the impotence of the owners in key decisions and what’s happened in recent years. I’d suggest that the Chief Executive is where the buck stops. If things are going awry beyond what the Manager controls then it is up to the Chief Executive to address those issues and if somebody is failing to fulfil their duties then they should be replaced.
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Post by Pugsley on Jan 20, 2020 18:57:23 GMT
What isn't his fault, either totally or partly? Until you know a lot more than I certainly do about the decision making processes at the club it’s impossible to answer that question Decision making processes... Have you heard the one about a bloke in the pub recommending a manager and a top level professional football club made him their boss? That kind of process?
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 20, 2020 18:59:57 GMT
I included the word Chairman because it basically appears like the Chairman at Swansea assumes the duties that most people would describe as being those of a Chief Exec. Name me any Chief Exec or similar position in ANY industry in the world who is still in situ after similair decline to that seen at Stoke in under 3 years? It simply doesn't happen. It's been catastrophic and in virtually every other organisition on planet earth, they have something called accountability, that's a concept that simply doesn't exist at SCFC. For someone who claims not to be a mouthpiece for Scholes, you certainly display a keen desire to defend his honour, Malcolm For someone But neither will I join in a hue and cry which is not based on an evidence-based analysis of the situation. How much more evidence do you require? Does the league table, the pathetic amount of wins in a three year period, the £50M worth of toxic assets we're paying to stay away from the club, the horrendous match day experience, the complete side stepping of the supporters council, the fuck up on paying the minimum wage, the half empty stadium not shambolic enough? I don't get how you conclude that a chief executive bears no responsibility for the utter disaster area and laughing stock we currently are.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 20, 2020 19:21:46 GMT
Until you know a lot more than I certainly do about the decision making processes at the club it’s impossible to answer that question Decision making processes... Have you heard the one about a bloke in the pub recommending a manager and a top level professional football club made him their boss? That kind of process? In the ground now 👍 Yes I have I was there in Delilahs when Jon Coates told how Nathan Jones came on his radar. What I took from it was that it was clear it was JC’s decision to recruit him not TS’s.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 20, 2020 19:26:59 GMT
But neither will I join in a hue and cry which is not based on an evidence-based analysis of the situation. How much more evidence do you require? Does the league table, the pathetic amount of wins in a three year period, the £50M worth of toxic assets we're paying to stay away from the club, the horrendous match day experience, the complete side stepping of the supporters council, the fuck up on paying the minimum wage, the half empty stadium not shambolic enough? I don't get how you conclude that a chief executive bears no responsibility for the utter disaster area and laughing stock we currently are. If you either don’t read exactly what I write or deliberately or otherwise misrepresent it, there is no point in having the discussion. At no point have I said that the CEO “ bears no responsibility” and neither have I disputed that the things you have listed have happened. That just hasn’t been the basis of what I said.
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Post by StaffordPotter on Jan 20, 2020 19:27:28 GMT
I'll bet you none of these get asked. There's a few questions I've put to them which I've been promised with be highlighted at their next meeting, fully expecting nothing to come of it as usual. Most of those fuckers on the council don't want to rock the boat and don't seem interested in taking our questions to the board. I’m not on the council and I’ve not got much interest in that stuff but seeing as though you do and are having a go at them ( when they do it for free and in their own time ) why don’t you join it and ask all the questions you want? Because I'd end up getting kicked off and probably banned from entering the ground.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 20, 2020 19:30:55 GMT
How much more evidence do you require? Does the league table, the pathetic amount of wins in a three year period, the £50M worth of toxic assets we're paying to stay away from the club, the horrendous match day experience, the complete side stepping of the supporters council, the fuck up on paying the minimum wage, the half empty stadium not shambolic enough? I don't get how you conclude that a chief executive bears no responsibility for the utter disaster area and laughing stock we currently are. If you either don’t read exactly what I write or deliberately or otherwise misrepresent it, there is no point in having the discussion. At no point have I said that the CEO “ bears no responsibility” and neither have I disputed that the things you have listed have happened. That just hasn’t been the basis of what I said. Yes you have, you questioned if there is any evidence indicating you don’t think there is....surely?
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 20, 2020 21:05:40 GMT
If you either don’t read exactly what I write or deliberately or otherwise misrepresent it, there is no point in having the discussion. At no point have I said that the CEO “ bears no responsibility” and neither have I disputed that the things you have listed have happened. That just hasn’t been the basis of what I said. Yes you have, you questioned if there is any evidence indicating you don’t think there is....surely? Read it again.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 20, 2020 22:07:13 GMT
Yes you have, you questioned if there is any evidence indicating you don’t think there is....surely? Read it again. Neither will I join in a hue and cry which is not based on an evidence-based analysis of the situation which does nothing to further the supporters cause. All the key decisions in the football club which affect playing performance are made or sanctioned by the owners . The evidence is the club's near terminal decline which you appear to be exonerating him from!
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 20, 2020 22:41:10 GMT
Neither will I join in a hue and cry which is not based on an evidence-based analysis of the situation which does nothing to further the supporters cause. All the key decisions in the football club which affect playing performance are made or sanctioned by the owners . The evidence is the club's near terminal decline which you appear to be exonerating him from! This is getting tedious . I haven’t “exonerated him” from anything. On the contrary I said he was responsible for one of Benjis original list of 11 What I said was that the narrative which has him solely or mainly responsible for the other bad decisions which have led us to where we are is not supported by evidence, which it isn’t. It makes no attempt to analyse the role of the owners which is naive and inaccurate and it doesn’t recognise the nature of football clubs, particularly one where the owners are pretty “ hands on” . But obviously he bears some responsibility for some of it. To say we are in “near terminal” decline is ridiculous hyperbole. We’ve had a bad few years after a decade of pretty reasonable ones. It happens in football because statistically bad years have to happen to someone. But after watching that excellent defensive performance even your good self will not annoy or upset me 😄
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 20, 2020 22:52:40 GMT
Neither will I join in a hue and cry which is not based on an evidence-based analysis of the situation which does nothing to further the supporters cause. All the key decisions in the football club which affect playing performance are made or sanctioned by the owners . The evidence is the club's near terminal decline which you appear to be exonerating him from! This is getting tedious . I haven’t “exonerated him” from anything. On the contrary I said he was responsible for one of Benjis original list of 11 What I said was that the narrative which has him solely or mainly responsible for the other bad decisions which have led us to where we are is not supported by evidence, which it isn’t. It makes no attempt to analyse the role of the owners which is naive and inaccurate and it doesn’t recognise the nature of football clubs, particularly one where the owners are pretty “ hands on” . But obviously he bears some responsibility for some of it. To say we are in “near terminal” decline is ridiculous hyperbole. We’ve had a bad few years after a decade of pretty reasonable ones. It happens in football because statistically bad years have to happen to someone. But after watching that excellent defensive performance even your good self will not annoy or upset me 😄 When Tesco have a shit year and drop to the fourth Supermarket in the country, the Chief Exec is rarely solely to blame but gets the bullet because that's how accountability works. This club has no accountability and no desire to change, other than to avoid FFP penalties resulting from their own gross mis-management. No lessons learned, no overhaul just the same people doing the same shit and expecting different results.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 20, 2020 23:04:47 GMT
This is getting tedious . I haven’t “exonerated him” from anything. On the contrary I said he was responsible for one of Benjis original list of 11 What I said was that the narrative which has him solely or mainly responsible for the other bad decisions which have led us to where we are is not supported by evidence, which it isn’t. It makes no attempt to analyse the role of the owners which is naive and inaccurate and it doesn’t recognise the nature of football clubs, particularly one where the owners are pretty “ hands on” . But obviously he bears some responsibility for some of it. To say we are in “near terminal” decline is ridiculous hyperbole. We’ve had a bad few years after a decade of pretty reasonable ones. It happens in football because statistically bad years have to happen to someone. But after watching that excellent defensive performance even your good self will not annoy or upset me 😄 When Tesco have a shit year and drop to the fourth Supermarket in the country, the Chief Exec is rarely solely to blame but gets the bullet because that's how accountability works. This club has no accountability and no desire to change, other than to avoid FFP penalties resulting from their own gross mis-management. No lessons learned, no overhaul just the same people doing the same shit and expecting different results. I don’t think the analogy between football clubs and supermarkets really works because the relationship between the shareholders and the CEO is very different as is the competitive framework within which they operate. And I fully understand the need for accountability to fans in football. I spend much of my time in the FSA working for just that. But it must be based on an informed understanding of who is responsible for what. None of this is in any way to deny that there have been a succession of very bad investment decisions at Stoke City
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jan 20, 2020 23:10:52 GMT
When Tesco have a shit year and drop to the fourth Supermarket in the country, the Chief Exec is rarely solely to blame but gets the bullet because that's how accountability works. This club has no accountability and no desire to change, other than to avoid FFP penalties resulting from their own gross mis-management. No lessons learned, no overhaul just the same people doing the same shit and expecting different results. I don’t think the analogy between football clubs and supermarkets really works because the relationship between the shareholders and the CEO is very different as is the competitive framework within which they operate. And I fully understand the need for accountability to fans in football. I spend much of my time in the FSA working for just that. But it must be based on an informed understanding of who is responsible for what. None of this is in any way to deny that there have been a succession of very bad investment decisions at Stoke City The problem I have with all this who does what business is that when we had Bojan, Shaq and Arnie buzzing about, Scholes was only too eager to associate himself with recruitment and was regularly in Sentinel trying to take some praise. Alternatively, if he is just an office boy, bean counter, doing the direct bidding off the Coates family he's being paid around £850k per annum too much. You can't have it both ways. If you earn insane conkers, then you have to be accountable. He isn't and the club isn't.
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Post by Malcolm Clarke on Jan 20, 2020 23:31:24 GMT
I don’t think the analogy between football clubs and supermarkets really works because the relationship between the shareholders and the CEO is very different as is the competitive framework within which they operate. And I fully understand the need for accountability to fans in football. I spend much of my time in the FSA working for just that. But it must be based on an informed understanding of who is responsible for what. None of this is in any way to deny that there have been a succession of very bad investment decisions at Stoke City The problem I have with all this who does what business is that when we had Bojan, Shaq and Arnie buzzing about, Scholes was only too eager to associate himself with recruitment and was regularly in Sentinel trying to take some praise. Alternatively, if he is just an office boy, bean counter, doing the direct bidding off the Coates family he's being paid around £850k per annum too much. You can't have it both ways. If you earn insane conkers, then you have to be accountable. He isn't and the club isn't. Please don’t keep putting words into my mouth. I don’t think for a moment that he’s just an “office boy” or a “bean counter” . I too think his salary like so many in football is ridiculous. I also agree that there is insufficient accountability in football at all levels. But none of that negates what I said which I won’t repeat other than to repeat that the Supporters Council should explore the decision making processes at the club and the accountability issue and that the owners should attend. Anyway it won’t be too long before this coach load of happy Stokies is back home so I think I’ll leave it there. I appreciate the discussion
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