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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jan 3, 2020 13:08:02 GMT
Language changes over time, yes, but this is a case of almost Orwellian Newspeak with an intention to eliminate words and lump everything together: just as you have even explained in your own post. If discrimination is discrimination, and in your view, all discrimination is equal, that is a totally acceptable opinion. It doesn't, however, justify misusing the term "racism". Silly little half-xenophobic, half-sectarian, but not-really-fully-meant chants like "Fuck the IRA" being called "racism" when "discrimination" will do, not only weakens your argument, but is grossly offensive to centuries' worth of systemic oppression and genocide of millions of people. It's not "not technically racism", it's straight up not fucking racism in any guise, any way, any shape, any form. I'm not arguinh dodgy semantics, I'm presenting you with a dictionary defined, inarguable fact. It seems fairly clear that you are arguing semantics mate. In fact ironically, arguing the meaning of the word "racism" is the dictionary definition of an argument over "semantics", which is defined in the dictionary as the meaning of words Back on topic, I'm not sure why it's such an affront to you to call this behaviour racist. If people had chanted "Fuck Islamic State" at Ramadan, or "Hoorah for the potato famine" (catchy chant ) at Glenn Whelan, I'd have called it racist. "I am not arguing dodgy semantics". I've already explained within this thread that James McClean is not targeted due to his Irishness or perceived Catholicism, but as a direct rebuttal against his explicitly stated beliefs. He's in the right to have beliefs, everyone else has the right to condemn them in any way they see fit. In fact, his Irishness in incidental (proven by the fact that Glenn Whelan and innumerable other Irish players ply their trade without such treatment on a regular basis).
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jan 3, 2020 13:14:07 GMT
Language changes over time, yes, but this is a case of almost Orwellian Newspeak with an intention to eliminate words and lump everything together: just as you have even explained in your own post. If discrimination is discrimination, and in your view, all discrimination is equal, that is a totally acceptable opinion. It doesn't, however, justify misusing the term "racism". Silly little half-xenophobic, half-sectarian, but not-really-fully-meant chants like "Fuck the IRA" being called "racism" when "discrimination" will do, not only weakens your argument, but is grossly offensive to centuries' worth of systemic oppression and genocide of millions of people. It's not "not technically racism", it's straight up not fucking racism in any guise, any way, any shape, any form. I'm not arguinh dodgy semantics, I'm presenting you with a dictionary defined, inarguable fact. What if James McClean can't help where he is from (like me) or what his faith is (like me )? Also, James might get abuse for being a catholic when he doesn't actually believe (I think he does ). Did you choose to be a Stoke City fan, or are there a whole raft of social and cultural factors that have led to this, such that your agency is somewhat removed from the situation? You know what, I'm not even going to argue with those points because somewherw down the line we're going to end up agreeing. Simply put, there is no "Irish race" and there is no "British race", so we have a bunch of white guys abusing a white guy about something unrelated to race. It's not racism.
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Post by crapslinger on Jan 3, 2020 13:14:37 GMT
"It's not racist because factually it isn't racist", you are teaching kids it's frightening. You're a big fan of mentioning my profession. I'm not sure why. It's abuse and it's discriminatory. Language changes over time and it tends to be that nowadays discrimination against someone for religion, race, nationality etc. is termed 'racist'. That's what the general meaning is now. You're defending the discriminatory abuse against a Stoke City player by saying 'oh but it's a different type of horrific abuse' as if that makes any difference. Oh dear are you trying re write the dictionary, God help us.
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Post by vokeswagen on Jan 3, 2020 13:14:42 GMT
It seems fairly clear that you are arguing semantics mate. In fact ironically, arguing the meaning of the word "racism" is the dictionary definition of an argument over "semantics", which is defined in the dictionary as the meaning of words Back on topic, I'm not sure why it's such an affront to you to call this behaviour racist. If people had chanted "Fuck Islamic State" at Ramadan, or "Hoorah for the potato famine" (catchy chant ) at Glenn Whelan, I'd have called it racist. "I am not arguing dodgy semantics". I've already explained within this thread that James McClean is not targeted due to his Irishness or perceived Catholicism, but as a direct rebuttal against his explicitly stated beliefs. He's in the right to have beliefs, everyone else has the right to condemn them in any way they see fit. In fact, his Irishness in incidental (proven by the fact that Glenn Whelan and innumerable other Irish players ply their trade without such treatment on a regular basis). So he's being persecuted because of his beliefs?
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jan 3, 2020 13:21:26 GMT
"I am not arguing dodgy semantics". I've already explained within this thread that James McClean is not targeted due to his Irishness or perceived Catholicism, but as a direct rebuttal against his explicitly stated beliefs. He's in the right to have beliefs, everyone else has the right to condemn them in any way they see fit. In fact, his Irishness in incidental (proven by the fact that Glenn Whelan and innumerable other Irish players ply their trade without such treatment on a regular basis). So he's being persecuted because of his beliefs? Do you think infrequent, half-arsed chants of "Fuck the IRA" at the odd football match, which he voluntarily attends, and wherein he is being paid tens of thousands of pounds qualifies as persecution? He seems to lead quite a comfortable and priviliged existence to me. Hardly persecution. I'd say he ranges from being intellectually criticised to mocked in poor taste.
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Post by crapslinger on Jan 3, 2020 16:41:33 GMT
Barnsley have been charged by the Football Association in connection with allegations of " sectarian abuse" aimed at Stoke midfielder James McClean. Seems they have missed the racist element
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Post by daisydog on Jan 3, 2020 16:49:17 GMT
So the chant involves the line "fuck the pope " so if that is ok and not it is not offensive to abuse the head of the Catholic church then saying about the head of the Church Of England "fuck the Queen " is also ok. That's ok I will shout that at the next game and see what happens (of course I wont before we enter into macho posturing). Yes I know certain fans from other clubs/countries have done this but they have been punished. All these desperate attempts to justify this is desperate and I really can't understand why grown up men would want to justify something so juvenile. It also demonstrates an absolute ignorance of the history of Irish/British relations and certain posters frankly don't have a clue about it.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jan 3, 2020 16:56:43 GMT
So the chant involves the line "fuck the pope " so if that is ok and not it is not offensive to abuse the head of the Catholic church then saying about the head of the Church Of England "fuck the Queen " is also ok. That's ok I will shout that at the next game and see what happens (of course I wont before we enter into macho posturing). Yes I know certain fans from other clubs/countries have done this but they have been punished. All these desperate attempts to justify this is desperate and I really can't understand why grown up men would want to justify something so juvenile. It also demonstrates an absolute ignorance of the history of Irish/British relations and certain posters frankly don't have a clue about it. Both are in poor taste, but neither deserve any "punishment" beyond societal criticism.
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Post by daisydog on Jan 3, 2020 17:03:04 GMT
So you are saying I can go around saying "fuck the Queen" and it is acceptable and only in poor taste. If I start a thread with "fuck the Queen" , how long would that thread stay up ?
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jan 3, 2020 17:08:36 GMT
So you are saying I can go around saying "fuck the Queen" and it is acceptable and only in poor taste. If I start a thread with "fuck the Queen" , how long would that thread stay up ? If you go around saying "Fuck the Queen" in the street, print it in a newspaper, put it on your own website, broadcast it over the radio etc you are exercising a right to free speech and I fully support your ability to do that. If you post "Fuck the Queen" on the Oatcake, it's up to the Admin to decide whether or not it stays up as the website belongs to them. If you start chanting "Fuck the Queen" at a football ground, it's up the the owners of said ground to decide whether to chuck you out or not, up to them.
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Post by daisydog on Jan 3, 2020 17:13:49 GMT
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Post by crapslinger on Jan 3, 2020 17:21:50 GMT
So you are saying I can go around saying "fuck the Queen" and it is acceptable and only in poor taste. If I start a thread with "fuck the Queen" , how long would that thread stay up ? Try it plenty of lefties would support it .
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Post by vokeswagen on Jan 3, 2020 17:22:59 GMT
So he's being persecuted because of his beliefs? Do you think infrequent, half-arsed chants of "Fuck the IRA" at the odd football match, which he voluntarily attends, and wherein he is being paid tens of thousands of pounds qualifies as persecution? He seems to lead quite a comfortable and priviliged existence to me. Hardly persecution. I'd say he ranges from being intellectually criticised to mocked in poor taste. To put it another way, he gets regularly and persistently abused at his place of work. As a direct result of his personal beliefs. Whether or not "persecute" is a verb you agree with, a basic point of order: it's daft to suggest that just because he's wealthy and "voluntarily attends" (instead of exercising his free choice to be fired presumably ) that persecution is somehow inapplicable as a possibility. Wealthy people can be persecuted, and so can people who get abused doing an activity they've chosen to do. Absurd argument. You're better than that.
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Post by crapslinger on Jan 3, 2020 17:25:15 GMT
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Post by daisydog on Jan 3, 2020 17:29:51 GMT
Are you ok ? When did I mention racism ? The clubs have been charged with sectarian chanting,it's not that difficult is it ?
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Post by vokeswagen on Jan 3, 2020 17:36:25 GMT
Are you ok ? When did I mention racism ? The clubs have been charged with sectarian chanting,it's not that difficult is it ? Word to the wise daisy, since you're new - no carps is not okay. He's an absolute fucking tool
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Post by daisydog on Jan 3, 2020 17:40:20 GMT
Thank you for the heads up but you don't have to look for long to see that. I wont go down the troll tunnel.
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Post by crapslinger on Jan 3, 2020 17:42:01 GMT
Are you ok ? When did I mention racism ? The clubs have been charged with sectarian chanting,it's not that difficult is it ? Fine ta, totally correct answer it's fuck all to do with racism.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jan 3, 2020 17:42:09 GMT
Do you think infrequent, half-arsed chants of "Fuck the IRA" at the odd football match, which he voluntarily attends, and wherein he is being paid tens of thousands of pounds qualifies as persecution? He seems to lead quite a comfortable and priviliged existence to me. Hardly persecution. I'd say he ranges from being intellectually criticised to mocked in poor taste. To put it another way, he gets regularly and persistently abused at his place of work. As a direct result of his personal beliefs. Whether or not "persecute" is a verb you agree with, a basic point of order: it's daft to suggest that just because he's wealthy and "voluntarily attends" (instead of exercising his free choice to be fired presumably ) that persecution is somehow inapplicable as a possibility. Wealthy people can be persecuted, and so can people who get abused doing an activity they've chosen to do. Absurd argument. You're better than that.Yet again, you choose to totally miss the point in order to make it look like someome is saying something different. At no point have I ever said it is okay to shout this stuff at him because he is rich, my entire post was pointing out that if you're legitimately claiming he is persecuted, he is probably the only victim of persecution in history to end up significantly more privileged than the alleged persecutors. Read the posts.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jan 3, 2020 17:42:49 GMT
Nope, the owners of the ground. Usually the club.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jan 3, 2020 17:44:54 GMT
Are you ok ? When did I mention racism ? The clubs have been charged with sectarian chanting,it's not that difficult is it ? The whole thread has been a discussion about whether "Fuck the Pope and the IRA" is racist or not. If you're going to barge into the discussiom I'd advise you to read what's already been spoken about, it will help you to gather the context necessary to make sense of each post.
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Post by vokeswagen on Jan 3, 2020 17:52:56 GMT
To put it another way, he gets regularly and persistently abused at his place of work. As a direct result of his personal beliefs. Whether or not "persecute" is a verb you agree with, a basic point of order: it's daft to suggest that just because he's wealthy and "voluntarily attends" (instead of exercising his free choice to be fired presumably ) that persecution is somehow inapplicable as a possibility. Wealthy people can be persecuted, and so can people who get abused doing an activity they've chosen to do. Absurd argument. You're better than that.Yet again, you choose to totally miss the point in order to make it look like someome is saying something different. At no point have I ever said it is okay to shout this stuff at him because he is rich, my entire post was pointing out that if you're legitimately claiming he is persecuted, he is probably the only victim of persecution in history to end up significantly more privileged than the alleged persecutors. Read the posts. Fuck me, it's all bloody choice with you libertarians isn't it I haven't chosen to miss your point; I've just highlighted that the point you're making about wealth/persecution is a nonsensical one. There are many many historical examples of wealthy people being persecuted. This is getting very meta and I blame you
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Post by crapslinger on Jan 3, 2020 17:55:14 GMT
Are you ok ? When did I mention racism ? The clubs have been charged with sectarian chanting,it's not that difficult is it ? The whole thread has been a discussion about whether "Fuck the Pope and the IRA" is racist or not. If you're going to barge into the discussiom I'd advise you to read what's already been spoken about, it will help you to gather the context necessary to make sense of each post. Fcuking novice's supported by the man who can not be named apart from in the Sentinel crime column
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Post by daisydog on Jan 3, 2020 18:01:15 GMT
Sorry if i missed the point but it seems a completely pointless exercise to argue whether Sectarian chanting is racist or not (and allows some real cretins to spout nonsense), surely we are better than that. Sectarian chanting is wrong and has no place in a football ground. As you stated earlier it is up to those in charge as to whether they allow it. By the way we must all congratulate Boris Johnson on achieving what the IRA did not and separated Northern Ireland from the rest of Britain and created an economic united Ireland. Maybe the kids should be singing "Fuck Boris Johnson" if they're so concerned about Irish politics and maintaining the Union (but they're not are they, thick kids).
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Post by franklin66 on Jan 3, 2020 20:20:16 GMT
The whole thread has been a discussion about whether "Fuck the Pope and the IRA" is racist or not. If you're going to barge into the discussiom I'd advise you to read what's already been spoken about, it will help you to gather the context necessary to make sense of each post. Fcuking novice's supported by the man who can not be named apart from in the Sentinel crime column Ooh have I missed something crime column 🤔
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 20:55:55 GMT
It seems fairly clear that you are arguing semantics mate. In fact ironically, arguing the meaning of the word "racism" is the dictionary definition of an argument over "semantics", which is defined in the dictionary as the meaning of words Back on topic, I'm not sure why it's such an affront to you to call this behaviour racist. If people had chanted "Fuck Islamic State" at Ramadan, or "Hoorah for the potato famine" (catchy chant ) at Glenn Whelan, I'd have called it racist. "I am not arguing dodgy semantics". I've already explained within this thread that James McClean is not targeted due to his Irishness or perceived Catholicism, but as a direct rebuttal against his explicitly stated beliefs. He's in the right to have beliefs, everyone else has the right to condemn them in any way they see fit. In fact, his Irishness in incidental (proven by the fact that Glenn Whelan and innumerable other Irish players ply their trade without such treatment on a regular basis). Really, any way they see fit? And it isn't infrequent, he is booed nearly every time he touches the ball in every game, and supporters link him to a terrorist group. If a Syrian player came out and said the British bombing of Syria was wrong, added to the problems, killed people in his town, and caused ISIS to expand, and people started booing and chanting 'Fuck ISIS' to him, would that be okay? Of course it wouldn't.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jan 3, 2020 21:00:30 GMT
"I am not arguing dodgy semantics". I've already explained within this thread that James McClean is not targeted due to his Irishness or perceived Catholicism, but as a direct rebuttal against his explicitly stated beliefs. He's in the right to have beliefs, everyone else has the right to condemn them in any way they see fit. In fact, his Irishness in incidental (proven by the fact that Glenn Whelan and innumerable other Irish players ply their trade without such treatment on a regular basis). Really, any way they see fit? And it isn't infrequent, he is booed nearly every time he touches the ball in every game, and supporters link him to a terrorist group. If a Syrian player came out and said the British bombing of Syria was wrong, added to the problems, killed people in his town, and caused ISIS to expand, and people started booing and chanting 'Fuck ISIS' to him, would that be okay? Of course it wouldn't. The thread seems to have run its course now and I'm a bit bored of it, but you're crucially missing the point that he has linked himself to the PIRA by sharing quotes from Bobby Sands in the context of some sort of personal mantra.
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Post by heyzeus on Jan 3, 2020 21:29:53 GMT
Really, any way they see fit? And it isn't infrequent, he is booed nearly every time he touches the ball in every game, and supporters link him to a terrorist group. If a Syrian player came out and said the British bombing of Syria was wrong, added to the problems, killed people in his town, and caused ISIS to expand, and people started booing and chanting 'Fuck ISIS' to him, would that be okay? Of course it wouldn't. The thread seems to have run its course now and I'm a bit bored of it, but you're crucially missing the point that he has linked himself to the PIRA by sharing quotes from Bobby Sands in the context of some sort of personal mantra. Wasn't this like "YOU CALL ME FENIAN WELL I AM A PROUD FENIAN". Like "YOU CALL ME N-BOMB WELL A I AM A PROUD N-BOMB" Or if you people were rude to me (some of you have been ) "YOU CALL ME GOD BOTHERER WELL I AM A PROUD GOD BOTHERER " He had received quite a lot of abuse for a long time before retaliating like this.
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Post by crapslinger on Jan 3, 2020 21:32:10 GMT
Really, any way they see fit? And it isn't infrequent, he is booed nearly every time he touches the ball in every game, and supporters link him to a terrorist group. If a Syrian player came out and said the British bombing of Syria was wrong, added to the problems, killed people in his town, and caused ISIS to expand, and people started booing and chanting 'Fuck ISIS' to him, would that be okay? Of course it wouldn't. The thread seems to have run its course now and I'm a bit bored of it, but you're crucially missing the point that he has linked himself to the PIRA by sharing quotes from Bobby Sands in the context of some sort of personal mantra. From RTE a quote from the man himself on Martin McGuiness. “Not only was he a hero of mine, someone I looked up to, a man that has done so much for Irish people and Irish people’s freedom right to the very the end, he was also a good friend and someone I had the pleasure of having a good relationship with.
“He was a man I met so many times, had the privilege to share many a great conversation with, a man that always texted me before games wishing me luck, a man that through the well documented tough times off the field always let me know how brave I was standing by my beliefs, that I never was alone because I had his support and backing always.
I claim no responsibility in this statement it is a quote from the RTE on his relationship and admiration for Martin McGuiness.
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Post by crapslinger on Jan 3, 2020 21:33:44 GMT
"I am not arguing dodgy semantics". I've already explained within this thread that James McClean is not targeted due to his Irishness or perceived Catholicism, but as a direct rebuttal against his explicitly stated beliefs. He's in the right to have beliefs, everyone else has the right to condemn them in any way they see fit. In fact, his Irishness in incidental (proven by the fact that Glenn Whelan and innumerable other Irish players ply their trade without such treatment on a regular basis). Really, any way they see fit? And it isn't infrequent, he is booed nearly every time he touches the ball in every game, and supporters link him to a terrorist group. If a Syrian player came out and said the British bombing of Syria was wrong, added to the problems, killed people in his town, and caused ISIS to expand, and people started booing and chanting 'Fuck ISIS' to him, would that be okay? Of course it wouldn't. Would it be racist
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