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Post by raythesailor on Dec 15, 2019 10:15:20 GMT
Many of us were hoping that the end of the recent General Election and the start of the end of the Brexit debate would mean that life would quieten down, and we could start to experience some stability and sought out the numerous problems that have been on the back burners for so long due to the political deadlock we have been in.
However Nichola and the SNP are determined to carry on with their demands and so we could be destined for many more years of division and turmoil.
Personally as a Englishman looking in I can not see what they would gain or find better by breaking up the Union. They already have a high degree of self governance, their own judicial system ,tax rates and how they spend them.
Scotland would then almost certainly unleash similar movements in Wales and even more alarmingly a unification of the island of Ireland . What a mess that could prove to be.
An independent England, with an alliance of Scotland and N I Ireland and Wales remaining in the EU.?
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 15, 2019 10:20:52 GMT
Shhhhhhhh... The People have voted for positivity
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Post by felonious on Dec 15, 2019 10:32:09 GMT
It's inevitable that they'll get another referendum and absolutely right that they should get one as the UK government now finally has the mandate to leave the EU and they were promised at the last one that staying in the Union would guarantee their EU status.
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Post by sunshine on Dec 15, 2019 10:39:51 GMT
I imagine the conversation going like this...
Nicola: We have a mandate to hold another independendance referendum.
Boris: That's lovely, Nicola
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 15, 2019 10:42:22 GMT
Many of us were hoping that the end of the recent General Election and the start of the end of the Brexit debate would mean that life would quieten down, and we could start to experience some stability and sought out the numerous problems that have been on the back burners for so long due to the political deadlock we have been in. However Nichola and the SNP are determined to carry on with their demands and so we could be destined for many more years of division and turmoil. Personally as a Englishman looking in I can not see what they would gain or find better by breaking up the Union. They already have a high degree of self governance, their own judicial system ,tax rates and how they spend them. Scotland would then almost certainly unleash similar movements in Wales and even more alarmingly a unification of the island of Ireland . What a mess that could prove to be. An independent England, with an alliance of Scotland and N I Ireland and Wales remaining in the EU.? Interesting thought Ray. I wonder how much Scotland, Ireland and Wales would be prepared to " pay in " to the EU to secure their membership? Or do they expect to be net beneficiaries? And of course this is presuming that the EU does not change if we are able to achieve a clean BREXIT
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 15, 2019 10:42:40 GMT
It's inevitable that they'll get another referendum and absolutely right that they should get one as the UK government now finally has the mandate to leave the EU and they were promised at the last one that staying in the Union would guarantee their EU status. They should have another referendum, hopefully they will vote to leave a positive outcome for them and us, a self financing Scotland who will be subsidised by the EU, if the EU accept them of course, crack on Nichola.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 15, 2019 10:44:46 GMT
Shhhhhhhh... The People have voted for positivity Belief, Hope and positivity are not such bad things Bath. No one knows the future, perhaps it will be what we make it to some extent.
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 15, 2019 10:51:40 GMT
It's inevitable that they'll get another referendum and absolutely right that they should get one as the UK government now finally has the mandate to leave the EU and they were promised at the last one that staying in the Union would guarantee their EU status. What was said in 2014 was a statement of fact - if Scotland voted Yes they would be out of the EU (as well as the Union), if they voted No they would remain in both unions. This wasn’t a statement in perpetuity - remember the Tory policy in 2014 was to offer a referendum so the possibility of Britain leaving the EU was known at the time of the Scottish Independence referendum (something conveniently forgotten because no one believed Brexit would happen). Today though, Sturgeon is on the horns of a dilemma. She knows there still isn’t sufficient popular support for independence despite Brexit. But She knows the clock is ticking on her ability to get Holyrood to agree to an independence referendum. The next Scottish election in 2021 will most likely see a unionist majority. So what does she do - if she gets a vote this year she will lose, if she waits to next year she will lose the ability to call for a vote. The answer is she will try and ratchet up the grievance level even higher in the hope that will push the support for independence beyond 50%. That might be tough to achieve because after 5 years of grievance agitation support has stayed solidly at 45%.
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Post by zerps on Dec 15, 2019 11:19:43 GMT
There won’t be another Scottish referendum for a while. Wee jimmy cranky of the snp should pipe down.
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Post by franklin66 on Dec 15, 2019 11:25:36 GMT
Give it to them if they want just make it clear they will need to negotiate a leave deal where they pay their proportion of the national debt to Westminster. Make it clear they will not be taking the pound as their currency and that our 200 mile territorial waters applies so forget any oil,gas or fish. And our armed forces, security, NHS and education system will not be for sale.
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Post by felonious on Dec 15, 2019 11:34:50 GMT
It's inevitable that they'll get another referendum and absolutely right that they should get one as the UK government now finally has the mandate to leave the EU and they were promised at the last one that staying in the Union would guarantee their EU status. What was said in 2014 was a statement of fact - if Scotland voted Yes they would be out of the EU (as well as the Union), if they voted No they would remain in both unions. This wasn’t a statement in perpetuity - remember the Tory policy in 2014 was to offer a referendum so the possibility of Britain leaving the EU was known at the time of the Scottish Independence referendum (something conveniently forgotten because no one believed Brexit would happen). Today though, Sturgeon is on the horns of a dilemma. She knows there still isn’t sufficient popular support for independence despite Brexit. But She knows the clock is ticking on her ability to get Holyrood to agree to an independence referendum. The next Scottish election in 2021 will most likely see a unionist majority. So what does she do - if she gets a vote this year she will lose, if she waits to next year she will lose the ability to call for a vote. The answer is she will try and ratchet up the grievance level even higher in the hope that will push the support for independence beyond 50%. That might be tough to achieve because after 5 years of grievance agitation support has stayed solidly at 45%. Do you honestly believe Partick that if Scotland had voted for independence they would have been denied EU membership? The way Scotland votes is already established as quite independent from England and Wales and similar to that of Northern Ireland. It's inevitable that grievance will build up when a significant amount of the population continually support a pro independence party. No one makes Scots vote for the SNP.
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 15, 2019 11:49:14 GMT
What was said in 2014 was a statement of fact - if Scotland voted Yes they would be out of the EU (as well as the Union), if they voted No they would remain in both unions. This wasn’t a statement in perpetuity - remember the Tory policy in 2014 was to offer a referendum so the possibility of Britain leaving the EU was known at the time of the Scottish Independence referendum (something conveniently forgotten because no one believed Brexit would happen). Today though, Sturgeon is on the horns of a dilemma. She knows there still isn’t sufficient popular support for independence despite Brexit. But She knows the clock is ticking on her ability to get Holyrood to agree to an independence referendum. The next Scottish election in 2021 will most likely see a unionist majority. So what does she do - if she gets a vote this year she will lose, if she waits to next year she will lose the ability to call for a vote. The answer is she will try and ratchet up the grievance level even higher in the hope that will push the support for independence beyond 50%. That might be tough to achieve because after 5 years of grievance agitation support has stayed solidly at 45%. Do you honestly believe Partick that if Scotland had voted for independence they would have been denied EU membership? The way Scotland votes is already established as quite independent from England and Wales and similar to that of Northern Ireland. It's inevitable that grievance will build up when a significant amount of the population continually support a pro independence party. No one makes Scots vote for the SNP. You’re missing a couple of points here. On EU membership, it is a matter of fact that if Scotland had voted for independence in 2014 they would also have left the EU. Whether that would have continued is a matter of debate. I think they would, at some point, have joined. But that could well be a good few years down the road. On independence itself, the SNP need a majority. 45% isn’t enough. SNP grievance, genuine or manufactured - and there is plenty of the latter thickly coated in sanctimonious hypocrisy, does not appear to be translating into increased support for the cause. Grievance is a tactic the SNP employ to deflect attention from their inability to address the root causes of their failure to win the 2014 referendum. It plays well to the echo chamber within the nationalist community. It is clearly not working with the rest of the population.
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Post by yeokel on Dec 15, 2019 11:55:48 GMT
I think if wee Jimmie Krankie wants another referrendum Boris should give her one. (indyref2)
But say that the permission to hold a vote lasts 18 months. It is fairly clear that Scotland does not want to break away, they just want to be our "noisy neighbours" and to fight their own corner within Westminster.
Within 18 months we will, hopefully, have left the EU and the dust will be beginning to settle. A few trade deals may have been agreed or be close to it and things will generally, I hope, be looking a bit brighter.
Let them have their vote, but make it clearin UK law that this is the last one for 25 years come what may.
Draw up plans for them to leave (remain will just be the Queens Speach) and go for it just to shut the fuckers up. But, do it quickly as more and more delay will just mean more and more noise from up north, and a little more resentment up there that their voices are not being heard.
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Post by felonious on Dec 15, 2019 12:01:35 GMT
Do you honestly believe Partick that if Scotland had voted for independence they would have been denied EU membership? The way Scotland votes is already established as quite independent from England and Wales and similar to that of Northern Ireland. It's inevitable that grievance will build up when a significant amount of the population continually support a pro independence party. No one makes Scots vote for the SNP. You’re missing a couple of points here. On EU membership, it is a matter of fact that if Scotland had voted for independence in 2014 they would also have left the EU. Whether that would have continued is a matter of debate. I think they would, at some point, have joined. But that could well be a good few years down the road. On independence itself, the SNP need a majority. 45% isn’t enough. SNP grievance, genuine or manufactured - and there is plenty of the latter thickly coated in sanctimonious hypocrisy, does not appear to be translating into increased support for the cause. Grievance is a tactic the SNP employ to deflect attention from their inability to address the root causes of their failure to win the 2014 referendum. It plays well to the echo chamber within the nationalist community. It is clearly not working with the rest of the population. I don't think I'm missing any points Partick. I understand exactly what you're saying but the theory is that on the 31st December 2020 Scotland will be leaving the EU and this was a major part of selling the Union to Scotland. Whether you like it or not Scotland is now a one party state and there's always been a fair amount of antagonism towards England which will only be solved by independence.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Dec 15, 2019 12:09:36 GMT
Give it to them if they want just make it clear they will need to negotiate a leave deal where they pay there proportion of the national debt to Westminster. Make it clear they will not be taking the pound as their currency and that our 200 mile territorial waters applies so forget any oil,gas or fish. And our armed forces, security, NHS and education system will not be for sale. The 200 mile territorial water issue is an interesting point. Wobbling Fish Head assumes that the North Sea oil fields largely reside in what would be Scottish Territorial waters up to 200 miles out. She is wrong because, although the UN Declaration on Economic Sea Territory states that Sovereign Sea Space exists up 200 miles, where there is disputed sea space a line will be drawn that extrapolates from national land division and in the same direction up to 200 miles off the coast. In simple terms for our Nicola this means a line drawn from Carlisle to Berwick and extrapolated 200 miles in NE direction. Everything to the north is Scottish and to the south is English. However Stickleback cannily uses lines of latitude where sea space north of Berwick are Scottish. If there is disputed sea space she’s in for a shock because no doubt much of her economic forecasting depends on North Sea oil revenue.
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Post by xchpotter on Dec 15, 2019 12:13:00 GMT
They had their chance and didn’t take it.
Maybe an option would be to reverse the process we have seen with Brexit and instead of deciding first, we negotiate a notional Scottish exit and then let them vote.
That negotiation in my opinion should include: sort out your own currency, sort out your own defence, all Jocks in England have to apply for English citizenship and be subject to any intended immigration quotas proposed by Boris, tariffs on Scottish goods as they need the English market, a guarantee that not a single English pound will be spent to subsidise Scotland in anyway shape to form....oh and no more media coverage of the poison dwarf droning on about independence, no more re runs of Braveheart or NYE celebrations from Scotland including a long since deceased Andy Stewart.
If that was the negotiation I’d be more than happy for them to have a vote and would actively campaign for them to bugger off....had enough of them but do not want it to cost me more as it inevitably will.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 15, 2019 12:15:11 GMT
Do you honestly believe Partick that if Scotland had voted for independence they would have been denied EU membership? The way Scotland votes is already established as quite independent from England and Wales and similar to that of Northern Ireland. It's inevitable that grievance will build up when a significant amount of the population continually support a pro independence party. No one makes Scots vote for the SNP. You’re missing a couple of points here. On EU membership, it is a matter of fact that if Scotland had voted for independence in 2014 they would also have left the EU. Whether that would have continued is a matter of debate. I think they would, at some point, have joined. But that could well be a good few years down the road. On independence itself, the SNP need a majority. 45% isn’t enough. SNP grievance, genuine or manufactured - and there is plenty of the latter thickly coated in sanctimonious hypocrisy, does not appear to be translating into increased support for the cause. Grievance is a tactic the SNP employ to deflect attention from their inability to address the root causes of their failure to win the 2014 referendum. It plays well to the echo chamber within the nationalist community. It is clearly not working with the rest of the population. What would you say are the main drivers for the SNP Partick? For me; independence, sovereignty, the idea that Scotland should not be " ruled" from London but closer to home, Scotland governed by the Scots , without interference from the UK. Obviously alongside that, a belief that they are capable of standing on their own two feet economically. And that their future is better secured by being part of the larger EU.
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Post by harryburrows on Dec 15, 2019 12:17:41 GMT
Do you honestly believe Partick that if Scotland had voted for independence they would have been denied EU membership? The way Scotland votes is already established as quite independent from England and Wales and similar to that of Northern Ireland. It's inevitable that grievance will build up when a significant amount of the population continually support a pro independence party. No one makes Scots vote for the SNP. You’re missing a couple of points here. On EU membership, it is a matter of fact that if Scotland had voted for independence in 2014 they would also have left the EU. Whether that would have continued is a matter of debate. I think they would, at some point, have joined. But that could well be a good few years down the road. On independence itself, the SNP need a majority. 45% isn’t enough. SNP grievance, genuine or manufactured - and there is plenty of the latter thickly coated in sanctimonious hypocrisy, does not appear to be translating into increased support for the cause. Grievance is a tactic the SNP employ to deflect attention from their inability to address the root causes of their failure to win the 2014 referendum. It plays well to the echo chamber within the nationalist community. It is clearly not working with the rest of the population. There are a number of very significant problems that an independent Scotland would face . None of them have been properly explained by sturgeon . EU membership isn't a given , spains issues with Catalonia would be one . The budget deficit would be another . Currency, does Scotland have the reserves to launch its own ? It may be forced to adopt the Euro . Capital and jobs flight , RBS have already said they would have to move headquarters from Edinburgh. Also a hard border with England might be a factor depending on our relationship a the time with the EU .Fishing access would also be demanded by the rest of the EU as a precondition
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 15, 2019 12:27:37 GMT
You’re missing a couple of points here. On EU membership, it is a matter of fact that if Scotland had voted for independence in 2014 they would also have left the EU. Whether that would have continued is a matter of debate. I think they would, at some point, have joined. But that could well be a good few years down the road. On independence itself, the SNP need a majority. 45% isn’t enough. SNP grievance, genuine or manufactured - and there is plenty of the latter thickly coated in sanctimonious hypocrisy, does not appear to be translating into increased support for the cause. Grievance is a tactic the SNP employ to deflect attention from their inability to address the root causes of their failure to win the 2014 referendum. It plays well to the echo chamber within the nationalist community. It is clearly not working with the rest of the population. I don't think I'm missing any points Partick. I understand exactly what you're saying but the theory is that on the 31st December 2020 Scotland will be leaving the EU and this was a major part of selling the Union to Scotland. Whether you like it or not Scotland is now a one party state and there's always been a fair amount of antagonism towards England which will only be solved by independence. You’re not understanding what is happening up here. Scotland’s political landscape is currently defined by constitutional not party politics. As indeed was England until a couple of days ago. The SNP is the sole voice of independence, the union voice is distributed across the other three main parties. This helps the SNP in two ways - it delivers lots of seats in Westminster FPTP elections, and second it provides a focus for their position that is diluted and divided in their opponents. You can see echoes of hw this played out on Brexit in England. The antagonism towards England is easily exaggerated - particularly as this is a tactic nationalists deliberately and remorselessly deploy. It will diminish when the constitutional question is finalised. Which could well be in 2021 if the Unionist parties take control of Holyrood. Of course, independence would also end it as well. Well, the political exaggeration part of it. There will always be a low level degree of antagonism but that isn’t of any significant consequence.
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 15, 2019 12:36:38 GMT
You’re missing a couple of points here. On EU membership, it is a matter of fact that if Scotland had voted for independence in 2014 they would also have left the EU. Whether that would have continued is a matter of debate. I think they would, at some point, have joined. But that could well be a good few years down the road. On independence itself, the SNP need a majority. 45% isn’t enough. SNP grievance, genuine or manufactured - and there is plenty of the latter thickly coated in sanctimonious hypocrisy, does not appear to be translating into increased support for the cause. Grievance is a tactic the SNP employ to deflect attention from their inability to address the root causes of their failure to win the 2014 referendum. It plays well to the echo chamber within the nationalist community. It is clearly not working with the rest of the population. What would you say are the main drivers for the SNP Partick? For me; independence, sovereignty, the idea that Scotland should not be " ruled" from London but closer to home, Scotland governed by the Scots , without interference from the UK. Obviously alongside that, a belief that they are capable of standing on their own two feet economically. And that their future is better secured by being part of the larger EU. There is one driver - independence. It’s primarily an ideological position. And that is fair enough. And for many people that is good enough. But not for enough people up here to secure independence. Leaving aside died in the wool unionists, there are more than enough people in Scotland who are not opposed to independence but need more than an ideological argument that the SNP can target. Their principal concern is around economics; would an independent Scotland be better or worse off financially. In 2014, the SNP failed miserably to answer that question. It is why they lost. In 2019, that question has become even harder to answer in the affirmative. Which is why they have failed to make any ground.
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Post by franklin66 on Dec 15, 2019 12:37:57 GMT
Give it to them if they want just make it clear they will need to negotiate a leave deal where they pay there proportion of the national debt to Westminster. Make it clear they will not be taking the pound as their currency and that our 200 mile territorial waters applies so forget any oil,gas or fish. And our armed forces, security, NHS and education system will not be for sale. The 200 mile territorial water issue is an interesting point. Wobbling Fish Head assumes that the North Sea oil fields largely reside in what would be Scottish Territorial waters up to 200 miles out. She is wrong because, although the UN Declaration on Economic Sea Territory states that Sovereign Sea Space exists up 200 miles, where there is disputed sea space a line will be drawn that extrapolates from national land division and in the same direction up to 200 miles off the coast. In simple terms for our Nicola this means a line drawn from Carlisle to Berwick and extrapolated 200 miles in NE direction. Everything to the north is Scottish and to the south is English. However Stickleback cannily uses lines of latitude where sea space north of Berwick are Scottish. If there is disputed sea space she’s in for a shock because no doubt much of her economic forecasting depends on North Sea oil revenue. Although my original post was slightly tongue in cheek there are massive issues with the SNP. Wee Jimmy slags off Brexit and its 100% right to say the EU would not just allow an independent Scotland to just walk in. There are the same issues regarding sovereignty of currency and the seas which she is not being honest about. She has lied about independence just as much or even more than she says Brexit was. I genuinely believe Scotland could not afford independence and the good folk know it, the SNP are just a nationalistic party not a realistic prospect when the chips are down.
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 15, 2019 12:39:35 GMT
Give it to them if they want just make it clear they will need to negotiate a leave deal where they pay there proportion of the national debt to Westminster. Make it clear they will not be taking the pound as their currency and that our 200 mile territorial waters applies so forget any oil,gas or fish. And our armed forces, security, NHS and education system will not be for sale. The 200 mile territorial water issue is an interesting point. Wobbling Fish Head assumes that the North Sea oil fields largely reside in what would be Scottish Territorial waters up to 200 miles out. She is wrong because, although the UN Declaration on Economic Sea Territory states that Sovereign Sea Space exists up 200 miles, where there is disputed sea space a line will be drawn that extrapolates from national land division and in the same direction up to 200 miles off the coast. In simple terms for our Nicola this means a line drawn from Carlisle to Berwick and extrapolated 200 miles in NE direction. Everything to the north is Scottish and to the south is English. However Stickleback cannily uses lines of latitude where sea space north of Berwick are Scottish. If there is disputed sea space she’s in for a shock because no doubt much of her economic forecasting depends on North Sea oil revenue. That North Sea oil argument which was a plank of the economic case in 2014 is a big problem now. First because the price of oil has collapsed. Second because Scotland’s carbon neutral commitments means it needs to stay under the North Sea.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 15, 2019 12:43:39 GMT
Would England, Wales and Northern Ireland be better off economically if Scotland was independent? Would the UK be diminished on the world stage if Scotland were independent?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 15, 2019 12:46:54 GMT
You’re missing a couple of points here. On EU membership, it is a matter of fact that if Scotland had voted for independence in 2014 they would also have left the EU. Whether that would have continued is a matter of debate. I think they would, at some point, have joined. But that could well be a good few years down the road. On independence itself, the SNP need a majority. 45% isn’t enough. SNP grievance, genuine or manufactured - and there is plenty of the latter thickly coated in sanctimonious hypocrisy, does not appear to be translating into increased support for the cause. Grievance is a tactic the SNP employ to deflect attention from their inability to address the root causes of their failure to win the 2014 referendum. It plays well to the echo chamber within the nationalist community. It is clearly not working with the rest of the population. There are a number of very significant problems that an independent Scotland would face . None of them have been properly explained by sturgeon . EU membership isn't a given , spains issues with Catalonia would be one . The budget deficit would be another . Currency, does Scotland have the reserves to launch its own ? It may be forced to adopt the Euro . Capital and jobs flight , RBS have already said they would have to move headquarters from Edinburgh. Also a hard border with England might be a factor depending on our relationship a the time with the EU .Fishing access would also be demanded by the rest of the EU as a precondition Doesn't it depend upon the type of Scotexit we get Harry, Hard or Soft!!!! I can't imagine the SNP accepting a soft exit. Leave means Leave
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Post by crapslinger on Dec 15, 2019 12:48:54 GMT
Give it to them if they want just make it clear they will need to negotiate a leave deal where they pay there proportion of the national debt to Westminster. Make it clear they will not be taking the pound as their currency and that our 200 mile territorial waters applies so forget any oil,gas or fish. And our armed forces, security, NHS and education system will not be for sale. Hopefully they will take this chance to vote for their independence, we can then scrap the Barnett formula block funding from Westminster , they can then go cap in hand to the EU asking for integration and block funding, a positive out come for both parties
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Dec 15, 2019 12:57:00 GMT
The SNP took barely a third of the Scottish vote and she thinks she's got a mandate. Just 5 years ago the result was resoundingly in favour of the Scottish people wanting to stay in the UK. She's a vile anorak with a chip on her shoulder. Fuck off Sturgeon you bitter cunt. All hail Boris.
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Post by franklin66 on Dec 15, 2019 13:01:05 GMT
The SNP took barely a third of the Scottish vote and she thinks she's got a mandate. Just 5 years ago the result was resoundingly in favour of the Scottish people wanting to stay in the UK. She's a vile anorak with a chip on her shoulder. Fuck off Sturgeon you bitter cunt. All hail Boris. I have to say I hate her and Ian Blackford more that any other current political figure.
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 15, 2019 13:10:29 GMT
The SNP took barely a third of the Scottish vote and she thinks she's got a mandate. Just 5 years ago the result was resoundingly in favour of the Scottish people wanting to stay in the UK. She's a vile anorak with a chip on her shoulder. Fuck off Sturgeon you bitter cunt. All hail Boris. She got 45% of the Scottish vote. Boris got 43.6% overall, and I believe he “thinks he’s got a mandate.”
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Post by thevoid on Dec 15, 2019 13:31:15 GMT
The SNP took barely a third of the Scottish vote and she thinks she's got a mandate. Just 5 years ago the result was resoundingly in favour of the Scottish people wanting to stay in the UK. She's a vile anorak with a chip on her shoulder. Fuck off Sturgeon you bitter cunt. All hail Boris. I have to say I hate her and Ian Blackford more that any other current political figure. Don't forget their predecessor, the Tartan Epstein.
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 15, 2019 13:38:16 GMT
Well what will be Intresting is how vocal wee Jimmy will be when salmond's court case has ran its course
I shall be waiting with baited breath to find what she actually knew about his extra party activities
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