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Post by franklin66 on Dec 15, 2019 18:35:55 GMT
You are !!!! Throwing things at the edl is ok why? Because they are nasty racist people and they deserve it. Throw at muslims and that's racist, ok devils advocate are the muslims threatening the livelihood of the EDL? If so then it's ok right ? I didn't say it was okay at all? It isn't, it's violent and they should be arrested. Throw at Muslims because they're Muslims - Racist & Violent Throw at white people because they're white - Racist & Violent Throw at EDL members because they are in the EDL - Violent, not racist. Ok I understand but disagree with your thought process.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 15, 2019 18:51:03 GMT
In the modern era the UK is a fairly tolerant society. Examples of racist acts will always be found and actually the white working class can be victims as others but have not got very little avenues through which to really state their case because historically the victims of racism of course have been groups , usually black or Asian , from other usually less developed countries who overwhelmingly have been the major victims....or in the cases of actual discrimination in UK law have been minority groups. BUT currently I think that we are asking the wrong questions. The main cause of tension in our communities in the present day is , or is likely to be, that between the West ( Western liberal values if you like) and Islam. It may or may not fit a narrow definition of " racism" but two causes of concern for the UK in recent history and currently are: Terrorist Incidents such ss the Manchester bombings or the London Bridge stabbings. The targeting of vulnerable white girls largely by Pakistani men. Of course there is a plethora of other types of abuse by non Muslim population but these are perceived as organised targetted threats by one type of community on a different community. Add into the equation that in Working class areas of the major cities there has been an upsurge in Muslim communities living in parallel in terms of dress, culture, belief and some degree law and influence. Very little integration, just parallel communities having their own turf. The ( I'm going to call it ,) indigenous population may feel fearful or even resentful of their historic communities being changed fir ever. Eg in London, the westend cockney, West Ham football ground doesn't exist. Add to the fear some Muslim leaders themselves are critical of Western values and suspicion increases when we hear that the London Bridge stabber id from Stoke on Trent. Perhaps the West should do more to be welcoming and to integrate...but perhaps most ordinary people don't want this responsibility for which they have not asked. Of course the usual caveats have to be stated.... most Muslims in this country indeed want to lead a peaceful life and are not abusers or terrorists I would add that I currently work with many Muslim young people and do discuss these issues honestly with them. I wish I had the time to write all that has been said to me which I think would challenge a few stereotypes and I have visited ,and taken students ,to several Mosques ( and Guardwaras, Hindu temples, Synagogues)..to talk about these problems, snd they are problems, is not racist. ( just on one point of Lil's, who I think does argue his case very well, I was at a Manchester university last week when a librarian asked her " superior" in all sincerety if she was " allowed" to wish someone " Merry Xmas" or had she got to say " Season's greetings".... you might think that she had no need to ask this but these things DO take on a life of their own and culture does change..... many people are insecure and are in fear of causing offence)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 18:57:39 GMT
In the modern era the UK is a fairly tolerant society. Examples of racist acts will always be found and actually the white working class can be victims as others but have not got very little avenues through which to really state their case because historically the victims of racism of course have been groups , usually black or Asian , from other usually less developed countries who overwhelmingly have been the major victims....or in the cases of actual discrimination in UK law have been minority groups. BUT currently I think that we are asking the wrong questions. The main cause of tension in our communities in the present day is , or is likely to be, that between the West ( Western liberal values if you like) and Islam. It may or may not fit a narrow definition of " racism" but two causes of concern for the UK in recent history and currently are: Terrorist Incidents such ss the Manchester bombings or the London Bridge stabbings. The targeting of vulnerable white girls largely by Pakistani men. Of course there is a plethora of other types of abuse by non Muslim population but these are perceived as organised targetted threats by one type of community on a different community. Add into the equation that in Working class areas of the major cities there has been an upsurge in Muslim communities living in parallel in terms of dress, culture, belief and some degree law and influence. Very little integration, just parallel communities having their own turf. The ( I'm going to call it ,) indigenous population may feel fearful or even resentful of their historic communities being changed fir ever. Eg in London, the westend cockney, West Ham football ground doesn't exist. Add to the fear some Muslim leaders themselves are critical of Western values and suspicion increases when we hear that the London Bridge stabber id from Stoke on Trent. Perhaps the West should do more to be welcoming and to integrate...but perhaps most ordinary people don't want this responsibility for which they have not asked. Of course the usual caveats have to be stated.... most Muslims in this country indeed want to lead a peaceful life and are not abusers or terrorists I would add that I currently work with many Muslim young people and do discuss these issues honestly with them. I wish I had the time to write all that has been said to me which I think would challenge a few stereotypes and I have visited ,and taken students ,to several Mosques ( and Guardwaras, Hindu temples, Synagogues)..to talk about these problems, snd they are problems, is not racist. ( just on one point of Lil's, eho I think does argue his case very well, I was at a Manchester university last week when a librarian asked her " superior" in all sincerety if she was " allowed" to wish someone " Merry Xmas" or had she got to say " Season's greetings".... you might think that she had no need to ask this but these things DO take on a life of their own and culture does change..... many people are insecure and are in fear of causing offence) That last point is a good one, and if I'm honest, I quite like that people are thinking about these things like that. I see it as a good thing that students ask that question in order to make sure all people feel involved in something. It's no issue for me to ask for a more inclusive statement that is better suited for all people. However, I accept that broadly, companies tend to overdo it. She was probably asking for fear of her job instead of for genuine reasons, which is a shame.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 15, 2019 19:10:17 GMT
In the modern era the UK is a fairly tolerant society. Examples of racist acts will always be found and actually the white working class can be victims as others but have not got very little avenues through which to really state their case because historically the victims of racism of course have been groups , usually black or Asian , from other usually less developed countries who overwhelmingly have been the major victims....or in the cases of actual discrimination in UK law have been minority groups. BUT currently I think that we are asking the wrong questions. The main cause of tension in our communities in the present day is , or is likely to be, that between the West ( Western liberal values if you like) and Islam. It may or may not fit a narrow definition of " racism" but two causes of concern for the UK in recent history and currently are: Terrorist Incidents such ss the Manchester bombings or the London Bridge stabbings. The targeting of vulnerable white girls largely by Pakistani men. Of course there is a plethora of other types of abuse by non Muslim population but these are perceived as organised targetted threats by one type of community on a different community. Add into the equation that in Working class areas of the major cities there has been an upsurge in Muslim communities living in parallel in terms of dress, culture, belief and some degree law and influence. Very little integration, just parallel communities having their own turf. The ( I'm going to call it ,) indigenous population may feel fearful or even resentful of their historic communities being changed fir ever. Eg in London, the westend cockney, West Ham football ground doesn't exist. Add to the fear some Muslim leaders themselves are critical of Western values and suspicion increases when we hear that the London Bridge stabber id from Stoke on Trent. Perhaps the West should do more to be welcoming and to integrate...but perhaps most ordinary people don't want this responsibility for which they have not asked. Of course the usual caveats have to be stated.... most Muslims in this country indeed want to lead a peaceful life and are not abusers or terrorists I would add that I currently work with many Muslim young people and do discuss these issues honestly with them. I wish I had the time to write all that has been said to me which I think would challenge a few stereotypes and I have visited ,and taken students ,to several Mosques ( and Guardwaras, Hindu temples, Synagogues)..to talk about these problems, snd they are problems, is not racist. ( just on one point of Lil's, eho I think does argue his case very well, I was at a Manchester university last week when a librarian asked her " superior" in all sincerety if she was " allowed" to wish someone " Merry Xmas" or had she got to say " Season's greetings".... you might think that she had no need to ask this but these things DO take on a life of their own and culture does change..... many people are insecure and are in fear of causing offence) That last point is a good one, and if I'm honest, I quite like that people are thinking about these things like that. I see it as a good thing that students ask that question in order to make sure all people feel involved in something. It's no issue for me to ask for a more inclusive statement that is better suited for all people. However, I accept that broadly, companies tend to overdo it. She was probably asking for fear of her job instead of for genuine reasons, which is a shame. The question was asked by a librarian to fellow librarian....for me it isn't really a good thing because many people who mean no harm whatsoever, are questioning simple innocent things that were simply part of her life/ her heritage.....I think that we can take the reflection/ constant re-evaluation of our values and Language too far...we could become a neurotic nation. There is not much genuine dialogue conversation , interchange between the Muslim community and the" West" on an individual nor a strategic basis. One problem with Islam is that the ideology is seen as the irrefutable , unchallengeable word of Allah which everyone should follow so there is little room for manoeuvre. Christianity has been diluted into Western values.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 19:19:35 GMT
That last point is a good one, and if I'm honest, I quite like that people are thinking about these things like that. I see it as a good thing that students ask that question in order to make sure all people feel involved in something. It's no issue for me to ask for a more inclusive statement that is better suited for all people. However, I accept that broadly, companies tend to overdo it. She was probably asking for fear of her job instead of for genuine reasons, which is a shame. The question was asked by a librarian to fellow librarian....for me it isn't really a good thing because many people who mean no harm whatsoever, are questioning simple innocent things that were simply part of her life/ her heritage.....I think that we can take the reflection/ constant re-evaluation of our values and Language too far...we could become a neurotic nation. There is not much genuine dialogue conversation , interchange between the Muslim community and the" West" on an individual nor a strategic basis. One problem with Islam is that the ideology is seen as the irrefutable , unchallengeable word of Allah which everyone should follow so there is little room for manoeuvre. Christianity has been diluted into Western values. I think that view of Islam as 'irrefutable' tends to be mostly with those who are more traditional, and is seen exactly the same on the side of Christianity. I think Islam is just as diluted in the vast majority of UK Muslims as Christianity is. I think it genuinely is a case of change causing worry. People tend to struggle with compromise of culture, and I think that's partly what causes the rift you speak of.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 15, 2019 19:45:53 GMT
The question was asked by a librarian to fellow librarian....for me it isn't really a good thing because many people who mean no harm whatsoever, are questioning simple innocent things that were simply part of her life/ her heritage.....I think that we can take the reflection/ constant re-evaluation of our values and Language too far...we could become a neurotic nation. There is not much genuine dialogue conversation , interchange between the Muslim community and the" West" on an individual nor a strategic basis. One problem with Islam is that the ideology is seen as the irrefutable , unchallengeable word of Allah which everyone should follow so there is little room for manoeuvre. Christianity has been diluted into Western values. I think that view of Islam as 'irrefutable' tends to be mostly with those who are more traditional, and is seen exactly the same on the side of Christianity. I think Islam is just as diluted in the vast majority of UK Muslims as Christianity is. I think it genuinely is a case of change causing worry. People tend to struggle with compromise of culture, and I think that's partly what causes the rift you speak of. I'm afraid to say that I think that you are completely wrong there Lil. Islam is a cohesive ideology that cements bonding and identity. Young Muslims, mostly British born, are managing to knowingly live two lives and cultures, one at home and one when away from home influenced by what they see Western young people doing, but nevertheless when put on the spot will understand ably swear complete allegiance to Islam even on things such as attitude to homosexuality.... which is in direct contradiction to the way in which the West has moved. The ideologies of Islam and the West are incompatible. There have been examples of the clash recently in China and India, not just a UK problem, relatively speaking we are a very tolerant society.... which eventually may be to our detriment.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 15, 2019 19:55:02 GMT
The question was asked by a librarian to fellow librarian....for me it isn't really a good thing because many people who mean no harm whatsoever, are questioning simple innocent things that were simply part of her life/ her heritage.....I think that we can take the reflection/ constant re-evaluation of our values and Language too far...we could become a neurotic nation. There is not much genuine dialogue conversation , interchange between the Muslim community and the" West" on an individual nor a strategic basis. One problem with Islam is that the ideology is seen as the irrefutable , unchallengeable word of Allah which everyone should follow so there is little room for manoeuvre. Christianity has been diluted into Western values. I think that view of Islam as 'irrefutable' tends to be mostly with those who are more traditional, and is seen exactly the same on the side of Christianity. I think Islam is just as diluted in the vast majority of UK Muslims as Christianity is. I think it genuinely is a case of change causing worry. People tend to struggle with compromise of culture, and I think that's partly what causes the rift you speak of. Interesting work for schools is an education pack for schools by DV8 s Political verbatim theatre company . Can't do the link but this is what they say.... Lloyd Newson on Can We Talk About This? Can We Talk About This? is a verbatim theatre work investigating the interrelated issues of freedom of speech, multiculturalism and Islam as manifest in Western democracies. In looking at Islam and freedom of speech, particularly in light of landmark incidents in the West – Salman Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses, Theo van Gogh’s murder and the Mohammed cartoons – inevitably the topic of multiculturalism arises. The term multiculturalism within the context of this work and as used by most of our interviewees does not refer to the positive day-to-day experience of living in a multi-ethnic society, which I certainly endorse, but those local and governmental policies that actively ‘promote, retain and sustain’ minority cultural and religious values. Understandably multicultural policies were initially introduced to combat racism, discrimination, promote cross-cultural understanding and encourage a sense of shared citizenship. However, these same policies have also enabled 85 Sharia Councils to operate within Britain. These Councils, or courts, do not offer Muslim women the same rights as Muslim men. Why does Britain sanction a parallel quasi-legal system that doesn’t offer Muslim women the same rights it confers on non-Muslim women? Issues like forced marriage, ‘honour-abuse’ and first-cousin marriages within Muslim communities are constantly ignored by politicians for fear of upsetting ‘cultural sensitivities’. Have well-intended multicultural policies inadvertently ended up betraying the very minorities and freedoms Britain ought to be protecting? In 2009, Gallup, a respected polling organisation, together with the Centre for Muslim Studies surveyed 500 British Muslims about their attitudes towards homosexuality. Of the 500, zero per cent said homosexuality was ‘acceptable’. How does multiculturalism then work for gay Muslims? If I mentioned these issues or others associated with Islam, be it in conversation with academics, or friends at dinner parties – people who generally share my left-leaning politics – many either avoided the subject, doubted my motives for raising such topics or denied the evidence completely. Yet these same people would have no hesitation in discussing and questioning practices within Catholicism and Judaism if they believed them to be inimical to human rights. Due to our desire to be tolerant, and perhaps because of post-colonial guilt and a fear of being labelled racist or Islamophobic, I feel there is a liberal blind spot, a lack of voices speaking up for some of our most basic freedoms, particularly when it comes to discussing Islam and multiculturalism. Criticising aspects of Islam isn’t a blanket condemnation of a whole religion, nor a denial of the right to practise a faith; neither should any religion be conflated with race. How does the West support progressive Muslim voices that want a modern and moderate version of Islam which offers equality to women, homosexuals and tolerance towards other faiths? If we don’t, won’t or can’t discuss aspects of religions that are oppressive, as we do in debate over secular matters, how does a society, or community, develop? “Nothing of importance will not offend somebody, somewhere.” In addition to archival material, we interviewed a broad cross-section of prominent people who had first-hand experience of the interwoven themes of multiculturalism, free speech and Islam. One of the many questions we asked our interviewees, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, was whether they felt censored living in the West. Why shouldn’t Muslims be allowed to protest against the Mohammed cartoons, lobby for Sharia law, denounce homosexuality or demonstrate during homecoming parades of soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan without fear of arrest? Similarly should non-Muslims be allowed to criticise, without fear, aspects of Islam they find offensive, as they have done with other religions? But who defines what is offensive and on what grounds? As one of our interviewees succinctly noted: “Nothing of importance will not offend somebody, somewhere.”
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 15, 2019 19:59:45 GMT
The question was asked by a librarian to fellow librarian....for me it isn't really a good thing because many people who mean no harm whatsoever, are questioning simple innocent things that were simply part of her life/ her heritage.....I think that we can take the reflection/ constant re-evaluation of our values and Language too far...we could become a neurotic nation. There is not much genuine dialogue conversation , interchange between the Muslim community and the" West" on an individual nor a strategic basis. One problem with Islam is that the ideology is seen as the irrefutable , unchallengeable word of Allah which everyone should follow so there is little room for manoeuvre. Christianity has been diluted into Western values. I think that view of Islam as 'irrefutable' tends to be mostly with those who are more traditional, and is seen exactly the same on the side of Christianity. I think Islam is just as diluted in the vast majority of UK Muslims as Christianity is. I think it genuinely is a case of change causing worry. People tend to struggle with compromise of culture, and I think that's partly what causes the rift you speak of. Every single word used by the performers is verbatim www.dv8.co.uk/projects/can-we-talk-about-this/foreword-by-lloyd-newsonTaken verbatim from the United Nations...the censorship on discussing Islam is concerning.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 15, 2019 20:17:26 GMT
Not sure about that, mate. There certainly wont be another Corbyn type figure on the ballot, they wont get the 21 MP's required. What’s your take on what Labour need Momo? There’s three reasons going around explaining Labour’s defeat. 1) Brexit - they couldn’t find a way to reconcile their remain and leave supporters 2) Corbyn - he didn’t resonate with the electorate in the north (for various reasons) 3) Policies - too far to the left Listening to Len McCluskey this morning he says it is all down to #1 above, some other folk say 1 & 2, others like Alan Johnson say all three. I imagine the future of the left will be determined by which of these views prevail. My impression is McCluskey’s view will win which will see a continuation of the left wing policies Corbyn and McDonnell favour. Personally I'm gutted that Labours actual policies got lost amongst the Brexit fog, mate. For the first time in a long time I think people were willing to consider nationalisation etc. The right wing media killed Corbyn but he didn't help himself either. So yeah, fuck Brexit off, broadly a similar manifesto and a different salesman and I'll be happy and think they can win. Not sure who I'd go for mind!
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Dec 15, 2019 20:41:49 GMT
What’s your take on what Labour need Momo? There’s three reasons going around explaining Labour’s defeat. 1) Brexit - they couldn’t find a way to reconcile their remain and leave supporters 2) Corbyn - he didn’t resonate with the electorate in the north (for various reasons) 3) Policies - too far to the left Listening to Len McCluskey this morning he says it is all down to #1 above, some other folk say 1 & 2, others like Alan Johnson say all three. I imagine the future of the left will be determined by which of these views prevail. My impression is McCluskey’s view will win which will see a continuation of the left wing policies Corbyn and McDonnell favour. Personally I'm gutted that Labours actual policies got lost amongst the Brexit fog, mate. For the first time in a long time I think people were willing to consider nationalisation etc. The right wing media killed Corbyn but he didn't help himself either. So yeah, fuck Brexit off, broadly a similar manifesto and a different salesman and I'll be happy and think they can win. Not sure who I'd go for mind! Maybe I'm wrong but in my mind the people of the North have three main concerns. Brexit aside. 1) Immigration and controlling our borders/waters 2) Infrastructure development in the North (ie fucking off hs2 and focusing on better northern railway links as an example) 3) Investment in the NHS In my mind Boris has pledged to hit all three and Labour hit one of the three (NHS funding), and even that was with an unrealistic figure. Labour in its current form as an extreme left wing opposition will simply never appeal to the North!! Why the fuck would the North want a London Liberal elite leader who has expressed a clear desire to maintain a reckless open border policy and suggested next to nothing in the way of driving significant infrastructure investment specifically in the North. Combine that with a frankly hysterical leadership team in Dianne Abbott and Co and a bunch of privileged kids in momentum and you've got a party that is utterly unelectable. I know traditional Labour voters who go to the Labour membership events and are baffled by the fact they are now full of 21 year old kids who have never had a job and hate hard work. They say the events are more like RE lessons at school which spend more time debating why Palestine is right than debating policy of our own fucking country. This wasn't just a brexit result... It is a shift in policy of the major parties. The messaging of Boris and the Conservative party now resonates far more with the white working class chap from Stoke than a party with no plan, no sense of realism and one which sympathises with Hamas, a Venezuelan dictator and jew hating. Not a great look is it? Labour are finished unless they move drastically to the centre.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 15, 2019 20:44:26 GMT
Personally I'm gutted that Labours actual policies got lost amongst the Brexit fog, mate. For the first time in a long time I think people were willing to consider nationalisation etc. The right wing media killed Corbyn but he didn't help himself either. So yeah, fuck Brexit off, broadly a similar manifesto and a different salesman and I'll be happy and think they can win. Not sure who I'd go for mind! Maybe I'm wrong but in my mind the people of the North have three main concerns. Brexit aside. 1) Immigration and controlling our borders/waters 2) Infrastructure development in the North (ie fucking off hs2 and focusing on better northern railway links as an example) 3) Investment in the NHS In my mind Boris has pledged to hit all three and Labour hit one of the three (NHS funding), and even that was with an unrealistic figure. Labour in its current form as an extreme left wing opposition will simply never appeal to the North!! Why the fuck would the North want a London Liberal elite leader who has expressed a clear desire to maintain a reckless open border policy and suggested next to nothing in the way of driving significant infrastructure investment specifically in the North. Combine that with a frankly hysterical leadership team in Dianne Abbott and Co and a bunch of privileged kids in momentum and you've got a party that is utterly unelectable. I know traditional Labour voters who go to the Labour membership events and its full of 21 year old kids who have never had a job and hate hard work. They say the events are more like RE lessons at school which spend more time debating why Palestine is right than debating policy of our own fucking country. This wasn't just a brexit result... It is a shift in policy of the major parties. The messaging of Boris and the Conservative party now resonates far more with the white working class chap from Stoke than a party with no plan, no sense or realism and one which ympathises with Hamas, a Venezuelan dictator and jew hating. Not a great look is it? Labour are finished unless they move drastically to the centre. Why any fucker thinks Johnson and his right wing agenda of poor hating cuts will work for Stoke still baffles me to be honest.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Dec 15, 2019 20:48:36 GMT
Maybe I'm wrong but in my mind the people of the North have three main concerns. Brexit aside. 1) Immigration and controlling our borders/waters 2) Infrastructure development in the North (ie fucking off hs2 and focusing on better northern railway links as an example) 3) Investment in the NHS In my mind Boris has pledged to hit all three and Labour hit one of the three (NHS funding), and even that was with an unrealistic figure. Labour in its current form as an extreme left wing opposition will simply never appeal to the North!! Why the fuck would the North want a London Liberal elite leader who has expressed a clear desire to maintain a reckless open border policy and suggested next to nothing in the way of driving significant infrastructure investment specifically in the North. Combine that with a frankly hysterical leadership team in Dianne Abbott and Co and a bunch of privileged kids in momentum and you've got a party that is utterly unelectable. I know traditional Labour voters who go to the Labour membership events and its full of 21 year old kids who have never had a job and hate hard work. They say the events are more like RE lessons at school which spend more time debating why Palestine is right than debating policy of our own fucking country. This wasn't just a brexit result... It is a shift in policy of the major parties. The messaging of Boris and the Conservative party now resonates far more with the white working class chap from Stoke than a party with no plan, no sense or realism and one which ympathises with Hamas, a Venezuelan dictator and jew hating. Not a great look is it? Labour are finished unless they move drastically to the centre. Why any fucker thinks Johnson and his right wing agenda of poor hating cuts will work for Stoke still baffles me to be honest. I think you'll see a very different Boris Johnson in the next 5 years to the evil right wing dictator that the Guardian and the BBC portrays. Love him or loathe him, he's a pretty intelligent bloke who knows that with the right investment and attention, he will keep the North on side for many years to come.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 15, 2019 20:50:42 GMT
Why any fucker thinks Johnson and his right wing agenda of poor hating cuts will work for Stoke still baffles me to be honest. I think you'll see a very different Boris Johnson in the next 5 years to the evil right wing dictator that the Guardian and the BBC portrays. Love him or loathe him, he's a pretty intelligent bloke who knows that with the right investment and attention, he will keep the North on side for many years to come. It would be political suicide not to.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Dec 15, 2019 20:52:03 GMT
I think you'll see a very different Boris Johnson in the next 5 years to the evil right wing dictator that the Guardian and the BBC portrays. Love him or loathe him, he's a pretty intelligent bloke who knows that with the right investment and attention, he will keep the North on side for many years to come. It would be political suicide not to. Indeed mate.
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Post by felonious on Dec 15, 2019 21:01:16 GMT
Personally I'm gutted that Labours actual policies got lost amongst the Brexit fog, mate. For the first time in a long time I think people were willing to consider nationalisation etc. The right wing media killed Corbyn but he didn't help himself either. So yeah, fuck Brexit off, broadly a similar manifesto and a different salesman and I'll be happy and think they can win. Not sure who I'd go for mind! Maybe I'm wrong but in my mind the people of the North have three main concerns. Brexit aside. 1) Immigration and controlling our borders/waters 2) Infrastructure development in the North (ie fucking off hs2 and focusing on better northern railway links as an example) 3) Investment in the NHS In my mind Boris has pledged to hit all three and Labour hit one of the three (NHS funding), and even that was with an unrealistic figure. Labour in its current form as an extreme left wing opposition will simply never appeal to the North!! Why the fuck would the North want a London Liberal elite leader who has expressed a clear desire to maintain a reckless open border policy and suggested next to nothing in the way of driving significant infrastructure investment specifically in the North. Combine that with a frankly hysterical leadership team in Dianne Abbott and Co and a bunch of privileged kids in momentum and you've got a party that is utterly unelectable. I know traditional Labour voters who go to the Labour membership events and are baffled by the fact they are now full of 21 year old kids who have never had a job and hate hard work. They say the events are more like RE lessons at school which spend more time debating why Palestine is right than debating policy of our own fucking country. This wasn't just a brexit result... It is a shift in policy of the major parties. The messaging of Boris and the Conservative party now resonates far more with the white working class chap from Stoke than a party with no plan, no sense of realism and one which sympathises with Hamas, a Venezuelan dictator and jew hating. Not a great look is it? Labour are finished unless they move drastically to the centre. .... and yet the new powers that be in Labour think that they've garnered the support of the young in this country and the future is rosy. Another way of looking at this is that the vast majority of the young are not interested in politics and there seems to be a word going around with the young that Corbyn is a racist. I had to explain to my son that it was bollocks like a few months earlier when I had to explain that Farage wasn't a racist. The crazy world of social media. I listened to a very articulate female student in charge of her Labour branch at University. She said that she was convinced by what she was hearing on Twitter/ Facebook, etc that Labour would win the election and said after the result that she realised that she was in her own bubble of like minded individuals. Listening to McClusky, Corbyn, et al it would appear they're in a similar bubble. Thinking that nationalisation of industries is a vote winner is fantasy politics.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Dec 15, 2019 21:03:41 GMT
( just on one point of Lil's, eho I think does argue his case very well, I was at a Manchester university last week when a librarian asked her " superior" in all sincerety if she was " allowed" to wish someone " Merry Xmas" or had she got to say " Season's greetings".... you might think that she had no need to ask this but these things DO take on a life of their own and culture does change..... many people are insecure and are in fear of causing offence) That last point is a good one, and if I'm honest, I quite like that people are thinking about these things like that. I see it as a good thing that students ask that question in order to make sure all people feel involved in something. It's no issue for me to ask for a more inclusive statement that is better suited for all people. However, I accept that broadly, companies tend to overdo it. She was probably asking for fear of her job instead of for genuine reasons, which is a shame. What a load of bollocks. If someone wished you a 'happy ramadan' would you get all offended & think they shouldn't be saying that as it isn't inclusive?
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 15, 2019 21:06:33 GMT
I think you'll see a very different Boris Johnson in the next 5 years to the evil right wing dictator that the Guardian and the BBC portrays. Love him or loathe him, he's a pretty intelligent bloke who knows that with the right investment and attention, he will keep the North on side for many years to come. It would be political suicide not to. They haven't given two sacks of cum about places like Stoke for the past 9 years. What changes now?
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 15, 2019 21:11:37 GMT
It would be political suicide not to. They haven't given two sacks of cum about places like Stoke for the past 9 years. What changes now? They hold the seats. They won't keep them if they don't do anything for the people in those seats. Self preservation.
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 15, 2019 21:17:59 GMT
That last point is a good one, and if I'm honest, I quite like that people are thinking about these things like that. I see it as a good thing that students ask that question in order to make sure all people feel involved in something. It's no issue for me to ask for a more inclusive statement that is better suited for all people. However, I accept that broadly, companies tend to overdo it. She was probably asking for fear of her job instead of for genuine reasons, which is a shame. What a load of bollocks. If someone wished you a 'happy ramadan' would you get all offended & think they shouldn't be saying that as it isn't inclusive? I’m not sure I could get over excited about Ramadan. As I said to Christian friend of mine.”Im not V good with discipline” “No $#!t!”
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Post by salopstick on Dec 15, 2019 21:22:10 GMT
What’s your take on what Labour need Momo? There’s three reasons going around explaining Labour’s defeat. 1) Brexit - they couldn’t find a way to reconcile their remain and leave supporters 2) Corbyn - he didn’t resonate with the electorate in the north (for various reasons) 3) Policies - too far to the left Listening to Len McCluskey this morning he says it is all down to #1 above, some other folk say 1 & 2, others like Alan Johnson say all three. I imagine the future of the left will be determined by which of these views prevail. My impression is McCluskey’s view will win which will see a continuation of the left wing policies Corbyn and McDonnell favour. Personally I'm gutted that Labours actual policies got lost amongst the Brexit fog, mate. For the first time in a long time I think people were willing to consider nationalisation etc. The right wing media killed Corbyn but he didn't help himself either. So yeah, fuck Brexit off, broadly a similar manifesto and a different salesman and I'll be happy and think they can win. Not sure who I'd go for mind! Momo First the man. A lot of people think he’s an anti British cunt. It’s ok to blame the media but some of his actions and words to lend credence Secondly brexit. His position on Brexit was a joke. Going against his long held views. Then promising to enact the vote then doing a u-turn. That lost him the northern vote. Third his policies. Some were good on paper but maybe seeming unachievable to the masses. For many they couldn’t get past 1 and/or 2 to even read the manifesto
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Post by salopstick on Dec 15, 2019 21:23:01 GMT
It would be political suicide not to. They haven't given two sacks of cum about places like Stoke for the past 9 years. What changes now? Remind us of the massive improvements 97-2010
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 15, 2019 21:24:06 GMT
They haven't given two sacks of cum about places like Stoke for the past 9 years. What changes now? They hold the seats. They won't keep them if they don't do anything for the people in those seats. Self preservation. They've held Stoke South for two and a half years and the Council for four. Longton has gone from looking like Beirut to looking like Allepo…..only without the opportunities and culture.
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Post by harryburrows on Dec 15, 2019 21:36:45 GMT
Personally I'm gutted that Labours actual policies got lost amongst the Brexit fog, mate. For the first time in a long time I think people were willing to consider nationalisation etc. The right wing media killed Corbyn but he didn't help himself either. So yeah, fuck Brexit off, broadly a similar manifesto and a different salesman and I'll be happy and think they can win. Not sure who I'd go for mind! Momo First the man. A lot of people think he’s an anti British cunt. It’s ok to blame the media but some of his actions and words to lend credence Secondly brexit. His position on Brexit was a joke. Going against his long held views. Then promising to enact the vote then doing a u-turn. That lost him the northern vote. Third his policies. Some were good on paper but maybe seeming unachievable to the masses. For many they couldn’t get past 1 and/or 2 to even read the manifesto Most of the electorate neither know nor care about political dogma or policy. For most people as you point out it was a one or two issue decision to make Brexit / NHS. Brexit/ law and order etc labour need to focus on issues people care about. 99% of the population don't care about rail privatisation or planting 3 billion trees
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Post by salopstick on Dec 15, 2019 21:39:36 GMT
Momo First the man. A lot of people think he’s an anti British cunt. It’s ok to blame the media but some of his actions and words to lend credence Secondly brexit. His position on Brexit was a joke. Going against his long held views. Then promising to enact the vote then doing a u-turn. That lost him the northern vote. Third his policies. Some were good on paper but maybe seeming unachievable to the masses. For many they couldn’t get past 1 and/or 2 to even read the manifesto Most of the electorate neither know nor care about political dogma or policy. For most people as you point out it was a one or two issue decision to make Brexit / NHS. Brexit/ law and order etc labour need to focus on issues people care about. 99% of the population don't care about rail privatisation or planting 3 billion trees I’loads of arguments for and against privatisation but I do know you couldn’t privatise 5 industries in one parliment term
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Post by harryburrows on Dec 15, 2019 21:42:21 GMT
Most of the electorate neither know nor care about political dogma or policy. For most people as you point out it was a one or two issue decision to make Brexit / NHS. Brexit/ law and order etc labour need to focus on issues people care about. 99% of the population don't care about rail privatisation or planting 3 billion trees I’loads of arguments for and against privatisation but I do know you couldn’t privatise 5 industries in one parliment term I'm not saying they are without merit , they just don't win elections
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 15, 2019 21:43:24 GMT
Personally I'm gutted that Labours actual policies got lost amongst the Brexit fog, mate. For the first time in a long time I think people were willing to consider nationalisation etc. The right wing media killed Corbyn but he didn't help himself either. So yeah, fuck Brexit off, broadly a similar manifesto and a different salesman and I'll be happy and think they can win. Not sure who I'd go for mind! Momo First the man. A lot of people think he’s an anti British cunt. It’s ok to blame the media but some of his actions and words to lend credence Secondly brexit. His position on Brexit was a joke. Going against his long held views. Then promising to enact the vote then doing a u-turn. That lost him the northern vote. Third his policies. Some were good on paper but maybe seeming unachievable to the masses. For many they couldn’t get past 1 and/or 2 to even read the manifesto Revisionist $#!t. Two twats went into a ring a twat came out. Anyone who says otherwise is a twat...
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Dec 15, 2019 21:44:42 GMT
They hold the seats. They won't keep them if they don't do anything for the people in those seats. Self preservation. They've held Stoke South for two and a half years and the Council for four. Longton has gone from looking like Beirut to looking like Allepo…..only without the opportunities and culture. 😄 And the weather.
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Post by serpico on Dec 15, 2019 21:55:59 GMT
Labour 1974 Labour 2019 Theres your problem.
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 15, 2019 22:00:07 GMT
Labour 1974 Labour 2019 Theres your problem. Are they moobes or fake boobs...
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Post by numpty40 on Dec 15, 2019 22:04:06 GMT
Labour 1974 Labour 2019 Theres your problem. Are they moobes or fake boobs... The real left.
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