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Post by dannymadeley30 on Dec 17, 2019 9:46:14 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 9:46:32 GMT
how to win elections in 2019 on economics lean left (lean, not fall over) lean right on culture. Johnson hit both of these things and mopped up. Labour will be out of power until they have leaders who embrace British culture and move towards the centre-left. Very few people voted for Johnson on economics. I'd love to know their rationale if they did as his policies were written on the back of a fag packet. What is "British Culture" just out of interest?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 9:48:40 GMT
I agree, but centrism took Labour down to 8.5 million votes in 2010, and left them fighting for scraps in Scotland. There is 100% an appetite for a socialist democratic government PROVIDING Labour get their shit together internally, those who insist Labour lurch to the right are way off the mark in my opinion. That's my point I guess. Neo-liberalism showed it's colours in 2008, I personally don't want to go down that path again...... It was the crash and a need for change did for Brown A crash caused by neo-liberalism contributing to a world economic crisis......
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Post by dannymadeley30 on Dec 17, 2019 9:49:13 GMT
Says more about the Lib Dem’s lost votes I agree, but centrism took Labour down to 8.5 million votes in 2010, and left them fighting for scraps in Scotland.There is 100% an appetite for a socialist democratic government PROVIDING Labour get their shit together internally, those who insist Labour lurch to the right are way off the mark in my opinion. That's my point I guess. Neo-liberalism showed it's colours in 2008, I personally don't want to go down that path again...... Yes, Blairism is dead and thankfully many of his sycophants stood down at the last election. The new leader must pursue a hard left agenda.
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Post by serpico on Dec 17, 2019 9:49:51 GMT
emphasis on 'to win elections' how they actually govern is another matter. Johnson promised big spending during the campaign, he didn't campaign on a fiscally conservative platform.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Dec 17, 2019 9:50:48 GMT
I don't really think it matters who Labour's next leader is at the moment.
Labour lost a lot of credibility with ordinary people since 2017.
There's a certain mood in the Country at the moment just to sort Brexit out.
It's interesting that Labour planned to spend 3.7% a year on average on the NHS. For The Tories 3.2%. Not a massive difference is it?
Labour should have doubled that. Doubled the amount The Tories planned to spend on education and completely ditched their ridiculous Nationalisation programme.
And the £58 billion WASPI pledge.
Left the super rich alone because they'll just open more off shore accounts.
Abolished The House of Lords.
Reformed The Monarchy.
I can't see any of the current crop of potential leaders doing any of that.
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Post by wizzardofdribble on Dec 17, 2019 9:54:03 GMT
It was the crash and a need for change did for Brown A crash caused by neo-liberalism contributing to a world economic crisis...... Which cost the British tax payer £1 trillion pounds. Why the fuck do people keep blaming Labour for it? Brown gave the Bank of England control of Interest rates. That doesn't cause a global financial crash. FFS. 😠
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Post by salopstick on Dec 17, 2019 10:05:29 GMT
A crash caused by neo-liberalism contributing to a world economic crisis...... Which cost the British tax payer £1 trillion pounds. Why the fuck do people keep blaming Labour for it? Brown gave the Bank of England control of Interest rates. That doesn't cause a global financial crash. FFS. 😠 Because it happened on their watch Wether it be pensions, gold or NHS PFIs browns’ economic plan left us in a worse state to cope with it
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Post by franklin66 on Dec 17, 2019 10:09:54 GMT
Which cost the British tax payer £1 trillion pounds. Why the fuck do people keep blaming Labour for it? Brown gave the Bank of England control of Interest rates. That doesn't cause a global financial crash. FFS. 😠 Because it happened on their watch Wether it be pensions, gold or NHS PFIs browns’ economic plan left us in a worse state to cope with it 100% if the Tories were in power it would all be their fault, hypocrisy at it's best.
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Post by serpico on Dec 17, 2019 10:14:12 GMT
how to win elections in 2019 on economics lean left (lean, not fall over) lean right on culture. Johnson hit both of these things and mopped up. Labour will be out of power until they have leaders who embrace British culture and move towards the centre-left. Very few people voted for Johnson on economics. I'd love to know their rationale if they did as his policies were written on the back of a fag packet. What is "British Culture" just out of interest? a culture that values things like free speech and not press restrictions and other forms of speech oppression which corbyn favoured.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 10:37:01 GMT
I don't really think it matters who Labour's next leader is at the moment. Labour lost a lot of credibility with ordinary people since 2017. There's a certain mood in the Country at the moment just to sort Brexit out. It's interesting that Labour planned to spend 3.7% a year on average on the NHS. For The Tories 3.2%. Not a massive difference is it? Labour should have doubled that. Doubled the amount The Tories planned to spend on education and completely ditched their ridiculous Nationalisation programme. And the £58 billion WASPI pledge. Left the super rich alone because they'll just open more off shore accounts. Abolished The House of Lords. Reformed The Monarchy. I can't see any of the current crop of potential leaders doing any of that. Labour's individually policies were popular in the main, but like a kid in a sweet shop they got carried away which ate away at their credibility. Once Brexit is out of the way whatever the consequences, I firmly believe that a slimmed down version of their manifesto will resonate with voters. However it's all irrelevant if they don't sort out all the internal squabbling......
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 17, 2019 10:38:56 GMT
So a no deal Brexit and a bonfire of workers rights it is. Just the sort of thing that should see Stoke thrive!
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Post by salopstick on Dec 17, 2019 10:45:02 GMT
how to win elections in 2019 on economics lean left (lean, not fall over) lean right on culture. Johnson hit both of these things and mopped up. Labour will be out of power until they have leaders who embrace British culture and move towards the centre-left.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 11:06:28 GMT
Very few people voted for Johnson on economics. I'd love to know their rationale if they did as his policies were written on the back of a fag packet. What is "British Culture" just out of interest? a culture that values things like free speech and not press restrictions and other forms of speech oppression which corbyn favoured. What speech oppression did Corbyn favour? An unregulated press in this country certainly does not represent "British culture", history shows us how dangerous this has been in the past......
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 17, 2019 11:34:24 GMT
a culture that values things like free speech and not press restrictions and other forms of speech oppression which corbyn favoured. What speech oppression did Corbyn favour? An unregulated press in this country certainly does not represent "British culture", history shows us how dangerous this has been in the past...... O'flynn makes some simple observations and he is usually correct.
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Post by serpico on Dec 17, 2019 12:03:10 GMT
a culture that values things like free speech and not press restrictions and other forms of speech oppression which corbyn favoured. What speech oppression did Corbyn favour? An unregulated press in this country certainly does not represent "British culture", history shows us how dangerous this has been in the past...... The press may not represent British culture per-se, but the right to say what they want does, we allow people to say things we vehemently disagree with, thats one of the things that separate us from authoritarian regimes. Exactly which history books have you been reading ? a state regulated press is far more dangerous than allowing free speech, regulation pushes bad ideas underground where they fester and go unchallenged.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 12:10:24 GMT
What speech oppression did Corbyn favour? An unregulated press in this country certainly does not represent "British culture", history shows us how dangerous this has been in the past...... The press may not represent British culture per-se, but the right to say what they want does, we allow people to say things we vehemently disagree with, thats one of the things that separate us from authoritarian regimes. Exactly which history books have you been reading ? a state regulated press is far more dangerous than allowing free speech, regulation pushes bad ideas underground where they fester and go unchallenged. I'm talking about a REGULATED press, look at the shambles of the Leveson Inquiry. The media in this country is a joke, lets not kid ourselves ours is some kind of utopia, in the main we get force fed what ever the agenda of the billionaire press barons is at the time.......
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Post by serpico on Dec 17, 2019 12:15:25 GMT
The press may not represent British culture per-se, but the right to say what they want does, we allow people to say things we vehemently disagree with, thats one of the things that separate us from authoritarian regimes. Exactly which history books have you been reading ? a state regulated press is far more dangerous than allowing free speech, regulation pushes bad ideas underground where they fester and go unchallenged. I'm talking about a REGULATED press, look at the shambles of the Leveson Inquiry. The media in this country is a joke, lets not kid ourselves ours is some kind of utopia, in the main we get force fed what ever the agenda of the billionaire press barons is at the time....... who says the press should be a utopia ? it should just be free, thats it.
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Post by Davef on Dec 17, 2019 12:15:41 GMT
I agree, but centrism took Labour down to 8.5 million votes in 2010, and left them fighting for scraps in Scotland.There is 100% an appetite for a socialist democratic government PROVIDING Labour get their shit together internally, those who insist Labour lurch to the right are way off the mark in my opinion. That's my point I guess. Neo-liberalism showed it's colours in 2008, I personally don't want to go down that path again...... Yes, Blairism is dead and thankfully many of his sycophants stood down at the last election. The new leader must pursue a hard left agenda. Which will be rejected at the ballot box once again when the time comes.
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Post by thevoid on Dec 17, 2019 12:18:26 GMT
I agree, but centrism took Labour down to 8.5 million votes in 2010, and left them fighting for scraps in Scotland.There is 100% an appetite for a socialist democratic government PROVIDING Labour get their shit together internally, those who insist Labour lurch to the right are way off the mark in my opinion. That's my point I guess. Neo-liberalism showed it's colours in 2008, I personally don't want to go down that path again...... Yes, Blairism is dead and thankfully many of his sycophants stood down at the last election. The new leader must pursue a hard left agenda. Yeah because that worked. The British public have rejected the hard left, can you not see that?
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Post by serpico on Dec 17, 2019 12:22:00 GMT
if the hard left embrace nationalism that would make them national socialists ...
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Post by thevoid on Dec 17, 2019 12:28:29 GMT
Very few people voted for Johnson on economics. I'd love to know their rationale if they did as his policies were written on the back of a fag packet. What is "British Culture" just out of interest? a culture that values things like free speech and not press restrictions and other forms of speech oppression which corbyn favoured. Every country in the world has it's own culture. Some of that culture is imported, some of it gets exported. I'm not sure why certain elements of the left get in such a tizz when they see the words 'British culture', but it does seem like one of their stock questions. Macron said the something similar about there being no such thing as French culture. Again, utter crap.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 17, 2019 12:43:18 GMT
a culture that values things like free speech and not press restrictions and other forms of speech oppression which corbyn favoured. Every country in the world has it's own culture. Some of that culture is imported, some of it gets exported. I'm not sure why certain elements of the left get in such a tizz when they see the words 'British culture', but it does seem like one of their stock questions. Macron said the something similar about there being no such thing as French culture. Again, utter crap. Yet everyone else preserves theirs. It's a ridiculous double standard.
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Post by felonious on Dec 17, 2019 12:54:20 GMT
Over £3m more votes just because of May’s dementia tax debacle, really? Says more about the Lib Dem’s lost votes Not forgetting that the UK population has increased by 7.5 million in that period.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 12:56:39 GMT
I agree, but centrism took Labour down to 8.5 million votes in 2010, and left them fighting for scraps in Scotland.There is 100% an appetite for a socialist democratic government PROVIDING Labour get their shit together internally, those who insist Labour lurch to the right are way off the mark in my opinion. That's my point I guess. Neo-liberalism showed it's colours in 2008, I personally don't want to go down that path again...... Yes, Blairism is dead and thankfully many of his sycophants stood down at the last election. The new leader must pursue a hard left agenda. They don’t need to pursue a “hard left” agenda. But then Corbyn’s agenda was pretty much European Democratic Socialism and not “hard left” anyway. They allowed themselves to get carried away on the back of their manifesto launch though, it became a scattergun approach that people could see through.....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 13:09:21 GMT
Says more about the Lib Dem’s lost votes Not forgetting that the UK population has increased by 7.5 million in that period. 2005 - 35% share of the vote 2010 - 29% 2015 - 30% 2017 - 40% 2019 - 32% So a 5% increase on Blair’s last government, a 10-11% increase on Brown/Miliband before the aforementioned drop last week......
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 17, 2019 13:16:10 GMT
Yes, Blairism is dead and thankfully many of his sycophants stood down at the last election. The new leader must pursue a hard left agenda. They don’t need to pursue a “hard left” agenda. But then Corbyn’s agenda was pretty much European Democratic Socialism and not “hard left” anyway. They allowed themselves to get carried away on the back of their manifesto launch though, it became a scattergun approach that people could see through..... And apparently a lot of Labour MPs are seeing through it now. Of course, they signed up to the manifesto and hoped NHS horror stories and Labour loyalty would save their seats. All of a sudden its a ridiculous manifesto and Corbyn's neutral stance on Brexit was a joke. The lack of bollocks in the Labour Party is astounding.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 13:20:29 GMT
He's run a good campaign, but he's thick as mince. He's not thick in reality , do you consider the labour London elite intellectuals? Or just arrogant and stupid. No, not at all, I think Starmer is probably the smartest, and he's done well to come out of this without any real vitriol.
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Post by dutchstokie on Dec 17, 2019 13:23:13 GMT
a culture that values things like free speech and not press restrictions and other forms of speech oppression which corbyn favoured. Every country in the world has it's own culture. Some of that culture is imported, some of it gets exported. I'm not sure why certain elements of the left get in such a tizz when they see the words 'British culture', but it does seem like one of their stock questions. Macron said the something similar about there being no such thing as French culture. Again, utter crap.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2019 13:30:49 GMT
Yes, Blairism is dead and thankfully many of his sycophants stood down at the last election. The new leader must pursue a hard left agenda. Yeah because that worked. The British public have rejected the hard left, can you not see that? Honestly, Corbyn's policies weren't really hard left. He promised to push spending up to below the levels of France, Germany etc. and his corporation tax would've been below what it was even in the UK in 2010. His top tax rate was lower than all but the last two years of Thatcher's reign. His nationalisation program wasn't even vaguely full-throttle. He was just a more left wing than Blair, which includes basically everyone except the tory party. I am reticent to blame any media outlets or anything like that, but the sale of Corbyn by opposition as 'hard left' was probably the best thing they did. Untruthful, and created a call back hatred of 'left wing naivety', much like the GOP do in America where they have twisted minds so much, that lots of Americans see the word 'socialism', even in the form of something as basic and morally basic as universal healthcare, still as part of the 'red menace' and as an insult.
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