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Post by crapslinger on Feb 12, 2020 22:34:23 GMT
No one is ignoring their rights. The Labour Party is threatening to expel anyone who questions every right labelling them transphobic It is non transphobic to have a discussion on when how etc these “rights” are worked out. No one can claim a right to everything by right No it isn't, but they're not saying they will expel people for discussion, simply those who hold discriminatory views. Does that include the numerous racists amongst them ? Marx would be loving the Labrador Party as it is now
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Post by salopstick on Feb 12, 2020 22:34:29 GMT
Nope “Transphobic views” And that’s very subjective To be fair 'racist views' and 'sexist views' are subjective too. Irrelevant But not illegal unless you discrimate or carry out behaviour or speech which breaks laws Nick griffin can hold all the racist views he wants. Until he breaks the law he has done nothing illegal despite most normal people disagreeing with his racist views The Labour Party can’t all of a sudden become the thought police.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 12, 2020 22:46:12 GMT
Transexuality and transphobia are not mainstream political issues. Most people, including the working class will recognise that most people accept that most of us are either male or female, no real discussion necessary....therefore the idea that this acceptance of difference and equality should result in/ justify a complete change of behaviour, beliefs and practices that have the potential to allow males enter female toilets as of right is a non starter...and the possible consequences for women or children....their protection is a higher priority, as Salop implies/ states. No one should be unfairly discriminated against....but Labour have managed again to bark completely up the wrong tree with expertise. The Tories must be laughing their socks off. Okay, why would we let young boys into men's changing rooms then? Are they not at risk from gay people or gay paedophiles? Should we let lesbians into women's rooms? What if they attack other women? It doesn't sound like people don't care if they're giving the policy this much airtime. It sounds more like people disagree. think the tories will laugh their socks off whatever happens tbh, I think the UK is just a far more socially right wing country than first thought. The issue Labour has is that there aren't enough younger left-wingers to win an election alone, and those younger left wingers are far less accepting of a 'middle' ground yes they are at s compared with 20 years ago.one risk... The vast majority of people, young and old , accept that most of us are Male OR female ( irrespective of how much you and Labour think that we should change behaviours in light of this particular minority) Of course young boys should be let into male changing rooms and yes they are at risk ...we can't eliminate all risk....that does not mean that potentially we should allow any male to enter female changing rooms because they self identify as female... what you are suggesting opens the doors to chaos and puts women and young girls under ridiculous unnecessary risk. The Labour party have made it an issue and irrespective of any airtime that they've given it I think that most people will just see it as evidence that Labour have completely lost the plot and no longer deserve to be considered to be a mainstream party.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Feb 12, 2020 22:47:02 GMT
Nope “Transphobic views” And that’s very subjective To be fair 'racist views' and 'sexist views' are subjective too. Perhaps my transphobic feminist ways are a product of my age and experience of life along with it's unrelenting unfairness and witnessing how far society has moved on (in a good way) since the 1970's. It seems to me that you are approaching this subject from an idealist perspective and that's fine with me, I was a bit like that once, however, you and sections of society are playing with fire when it comes to determining what is and what is not transphobic when the subject is in it's infancy. To flagrantly disregard the feelings and safety of women is bordering on misogyny. Perhaps women should get there acts together and welcome your gender fluid world and perhaps go the whole hog and ignore gender altogether. If you disagree with me, then you're clearly a gendist.
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Post by salopstick on Feb 12, 2020 23:07:20 GMT
Okay, why would we let young boys into men's changing rooms then? Are they not at risk from gay people or gay paedophiles? Should we let lesbians into women's rooms? What if they attack other women? It doesn't sound like people don't care if they're giving the policy this much airtime. It sounds more like people disagree. think the tories will laugh their socks off whatever happens tbh, I think the UK is just a far more socially right wing country than first thought. The issue Labour has is that there aren't enough younger left-wingers to win an election alone, and those younger left wingers are far less accepting of a 'middle' ground yes they are at s compared with 20 years ago.one risk... The vast majority of people, young and old , accept that most of us are Male OR female ( irrespective of how much you and Labour think that we should change behaviours in light of this particular minority) Of course young boys should be let into male changing rooms and yes they are at risk ...we can't eliminate all risk....that does not mean that potentially we should allow any male to enter female changing rooms because they self identify as female... what you are suggesting opens the doors to chaos and puts women and young girls under ridiculous unnecessary risk. The Labour party have made it an issue and irrespective of any airtime that they've given it I think that most people will just see it as evidence that Labour have completely lost the plot and no longer deserve to be considered to be a mainstream party. The Labour Party is now home of the new “blue rinse” brigade
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Post by felonious on Feb 12, 2020 23:10:25 GMT
The vast majority of people, young and old , accept that most of us are Male OR female ( irrespective of how much you and Labour think that we should change behaviours in light of this particular minority) Of course young boys should be let into male changing rooms and yes they are at risk ...we can't eliminate all risk....that does not mean that potentially we should allow any male to enter female changing rooms because they self identify as female... what you are suggesting opens the doors to chaos and puts women and young girls under ridiculous unnecessary risk. The Labour party have made it an issue and irrespective of any airtime that they've given it I think that most people will just see it as evidence that Labour have completely lost the plot and no longer deserve to be considered to be a mainstream party. The Labour Party is now home of the new “blue rinse” brigade The Labour party is the home of Momentum.
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Post by salopstick on Feb 12, 2020 23:13:10 GMT
The Labour Party is now home of the new “blue rinse” brigade The Labour party is the home of Momentum. Who welcome any colour of dyed hair
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Post by salopstick on Feb 13, 2020 11:47:38 GMT
Okay, why would we let young boys into men's changing rooms then? Are they not at risk from gay people or gay paedophiles? Should we let lesbians into women's rooms? What if they attack other women? It doesn't sound like people don't care if they're giving the policy this much airtime. It sounds more like people disagree. think the tories will laugh their socks off whatever happens tbh, I think the UK is just a far more socially right wing country than first thought. The issue Labour has is that there aren't enough younger left-wingers to win an election alone, and those younger left wingers are far less accepting of a 'middle' ground yes they are at s compared with 20 years ago.one risk... The vast majority of people, young and old , accept that most of us are Male OR female ( irrespective of how much you and Labour think that we should change behaviours in light of this particular minority) Of course young boys should be let into male changing rooms and yes they are at risk ...we can't eliminate all risk....that does not mean that potentially we should allow any male to enter female changing rooms because they self identify as female... what you are suggesting opens the doors to chaos and puts women and young girls under ridiculous unnecessary risk. The Labour party have made it an issue and irrespective of any airtime that they've given it I think that most people will just see it as evidence that Labour have completely lost the plot and no longer deserve to be considered to be a mainstream party.[/quote Labour sees itself as a major mainstream party. It has to cater for the majority but not ignore the minority The last few years under Corbyn and potentially under LB they want to do it in reverse order That is not how you win back your majority
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Feb 13, 2020 12:20:28 GMT
I've just watched last night's Labour leadership debate on Newsnight and it struck me that the only grown ups at the table were Starmer and Thornbury. I generally agreed with what Nandy said, but she has zero gravitas and Long-Bailey comes across as someone that will demand respect due to rank rather than earning it through actions and leadership.
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Post by salopstick on Feb 13, 2020 16:05:56 GMT
I've just watched last night's Labour leadership debate on Newsnight and it struck me that the only grown ups at the table were Starmer and Thornbury. I generally agreed with what Nandy said, but she has zero gravitas and Long-Bailey comes across as someone that will demand respect due to rank rather than earning it through actions and leadership. It will be Starmer. Thornberry has low to zero sport
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 15, 2020 9:45:06 GMT
And then there were three
Thornberry bit the dust last night
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Post by thevoid on Feb 15, 2020 10:38:59 GMT
And then there were three Thornberry bit the dust last night Bit it? She probably ate it as well.
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 15, 2020 11:09:25 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2020 12:00:45 GMT
Okay, why would we let young boys into men's changing rooms then? Are they not at risk from gay people or gay paedophiles? Should we let lesbians into women's rooms? What if they attack other women? It doesn't sound like people don't care if they're giving the policy this much airtime. It sounds more like people disagree. think the tories will laugh their socks off whatever happens tbh, I think the UK is just a far more socially right wing country than first thought. The issue Labour has is that there aren't enough younger left-wingers to win an election alone, and those younger left wingers are far less accepting of a 'middle' ground yes they are at s compared with 20 years ago.one risk... The vast majority of people, young and old , accept that most of us are Male OR female ( irrespective of how much you and Labour think that we should change behaviours in light of this particular minority) Of course young boys should be let into male changing rooms and yes they are at risk ...we can't eliminate all risk....that does not mean that potentially we should allow any male to enter female changing rooms because they self identify as female... what you are suggesting opens the doors to chaos and puts women and young girls under ridiculous unnecessary risk. The Labour party have made it an issue and irrespective of any airtime that they've given it I think that most people will just see it as evidence that Labour have completely lost the plot and no longer deserve to be considered to be a mainstream party. I see the reaction as evidence that people generally do not believe in equality.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2020 12:03:16 GMT
I'm unsure on Starmer, but I think he's the only one who would stand a chance of winning something. RLB, despite the fact I actually quite like her policies, has been tarnished with the same brush as Corbyn and she'll never get votes. Nandy would struggle too in my view. If Starmer sticks by his left leaning push for the members so far in this contest than fine. If he changes to a Labour 2005 manifesto when he gets the leadership then no thanks.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 15, 2020 12:11:03 GMT
The vast majority of people, young and old , accept that most of us are Male OR female ( irrespective of how much you and Labour think that we should change behaviours in light of this particular minority) Of course young boys should be let into male changing rooms and yes they are at risk ...we can't eliminate all risk....that does not mean that potentially we should allow any male to enter female changing rooms because they self identify as female... what you are suggesting opens the doors to chaos and puts women and young girls under ridiculous unnecessary risk. The Labour party have made it an issue and irrespective of any airtime that they've given it I think that most people will just see it as evidence that Labour have completely lost the plot and no longer deserve to be considered to be a mainstream party. I see the reaction as evidence that people generally do not believe in equality. I don't know if they do or not. I don't think that impinges on my point that most people view gender as male or female, not worrying about a distinction between gender and sexuality and that the Labour party are seemingly irrelevant to most voters by highlighting the issue...irrespective of whether they are right or wrong on the issue....to be honest it's a long time since O looked at this issue/ thread/ argument so I don't know where we are...you can consider yourself correct if you want.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2020 12:22:56 GMT
I see the reaction as evidence that people generally do not believe in equality. I don't know if they do or not. I don't think that impinges on my point that most people view gender as male or female, not worrying about a distinction between gender and sexuality and that the Labour party are seemingly irrelevant to most voters by highlighting the issue...irrespective of whether they are right or wrong on the issue....to be honest it's a long time since O looked at this issue/ thread/ argument so I don't know where we are...you can consider yourself correct if you want. I'd agree if this were RLB's only policy. It isn't. People are jumping on this to confirm to themselves that Labour isn't helpful to them, mostly because they've already decided that's what they think of Labour. People seem to have been waiting for this sort of thing and mostly ignoring the rest of the contest tbh. Most who are so irate about 'I don't care about this, why are Labour bothering' probably can't name many other things, if any, that RLB has put forward. It's not so much about the policy, although I like it, but about people trying to find something to hate about Labour for confirmation bias.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 15, 2020 12:31:19 GMT
I don't know if they do or not. I don't think that impinges on my point that most people view gender as male or female, not worrying about a distinction between gender and sexuality and that the Labour party are seemingly irrelevant to most voters by highlighting the issue...irrespective of whether they are right or wrong on the issue....to be honest it's a long time since O looked at this issue/ thread/ argument so I don't know where we are...you can consider yourself correct if you want. I'd agree if this were RLB's only policy. It isn't. People are jumping on this to confirm to themselves that Labour isn't helpful to them, mostly because they've already decided that's what they think of Labour. People seem to have been waiting for this sort of thing and mostly ignoring the rest of the contest tbh. Most who are so irate about 'I don't care about this, why are Labour bothering' probably can't name many other things, if any, that RLB has put forward. It's not so much about the policy, although I like it, but about people trying to find something to hate about Labour for confirmation bias. Precisely, she/ Labour haven't handled the agenda very well. I'm sure she means well...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2020 12:36:57 GMT
I'd agree if this were RLB's only policy. It isn't. People are jumping on this to confirm to themselves that Labour isn't helpful to them, mostly because they've already decided that's what they think of Labour. People seem to have been waiting for this sort of thing and mostly ignoring the rest of the contest tbh. Most who are so irate about 'I don't care about this, why are Labour bothering' probably can't name many other things, if any, that RLB has put forward. It's not so much about the policy, although I like it, but about people trying to find something to hate about Labour for confirmation bias. Precisely, she/ Labour haven't handled the agenda very well. I'm sure she means well... I don't think there's much else they could have done to be honest. A lot of people want to hate Labour and they will do so no matter what. It's why I don't think any leader stands a chance in 2025 for Lab tbh.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 15, 2020 12:42:37 GMT
Precisely, she/ Labour haven't handled the agenda very well. I'm sure she means well... I don't think there's much else they could have done to be honest. A lot of people want to hate Labour and they will do so no matter what. It's why I don't think any leader stands a chance in 2025 for Lab tbh. You are probably right there, they seem to have become irrelevant in many people's eyes.... for some even worse than the Tories. They don't seem in tune with ' the people'...and have somehow then gained an image of blaming ' the people ' for that. I've honestly, seriously forgotten when I last thought they stood for anything or had any single person in leadership worth bothering with....and I say that as an enthusiastic ex member of the party.
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 15, 2020 12:48:49 GMT
Well the first question Kier Starmer congratulations on gaining the leadership Could you let me know how many predominantly Muslim grooming gangs were prosecuted whilst you were DPP
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2020 12:50:45 GMT
I don't think there's much else they could have done to be honest. A lot of people want to hate Labour and they will do so no matter what. It's why I don't think any leader stands a chance in 2025 for Lab tbh. You are probably right there, they seem to have become irrelevant in many people's eyes.... for some even worse than the Tories. They don't seem in tune with ' the people'...and have somehow then gained an image of blaming ' the people ' for that. I've honestly, seriously forgotten when I last thought they stood for anything or had any single person in leadership worth bothering with....and I say that as an enthusiastic ex member of the party. Well yeah, exactly. As someone who's only voted for them since 2017, and only really felt like a socialist since then too, I can't understand it. That said, I have a feeling that it is a backlash against 'woke' culture and the perceived changes to political correctness, and how the media has hugely blown that up. Social media, Infotainment and the internet have led to people feeling much more invigorated by politics, but unfortunately (in my opinion) they tend to want to 'rail against' something instead of working for something. Hence the Tory 'anyone but Corbyn' campaign and the Brexit 'anything but the EU' view. I think the right have done a fantastic job of getting mainly over 30s, previously not arsed people to feel like the left are a huge enemy, and the left are struggling to get people to either not care again or switch views.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 15, 2020 12:56:28 GMT
You are probably right there, they seem to have become irrelevant in many people's eyes.... for some even worse than the Tories. They don't seem in tune with ' the people'...and have somehow then gained an image of blaming ' the people ' for that. I've honestly, seriously forgotten when I last thought they stood for anything or had any single person in leadership worth bothering with....and I say that as an enthusiastic ex member of the party. Well yeah, exactly. As someone who's only voted for them since 2017, and only really felt like a socialist since then too, I can't understand it. That said, I have a feeling that it is a backlash against 'woke' culture and the perceived changes to political correctness, and how the media has hugely blown that up. Social media, Infotainment and the internet have led to people feeling much more invigorated by politics, but unfortunately (in my opinion) they tend to want to 'rail against' something instead of working for something. Hence the Tory 'anyone but Corbyn' campaign and the Brexit 'anything but the EU' view. I think the right have done a fantastic job of getting mainly over 30s, previously not arsed people to feel like the left are a huge enemy, and the left are struggling to get people to either not care again or switch views. I wouldn't expect you to agree with this man at all. You might even call him a racist , I wouldn't. But he probably is closer to representing the working class than Long Bailey. You might say that Labour don't want types like him backing them.......ok, he isn't......... PS...I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of his stance/ Labour's ideological debate at length AGAIN, so I'll leave it there. Hope we win today.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Feb 15, 2020 13:01:14 GMT
You are probably right there, they seem to have become irrelevant in many people's eyes.... for some even worse than the Tories. They don't seem in tune with ' the people'...and have somehow then gained an image of blaming ' the people ' for that. I've honestly, seriously forgotten when I last thought they stood for anything or had any single person in leadership worth bothering with....and I say that as an enthusiastic ex member of the party. Well yeah, exactly. As someone who's only voted for them since 2017, and only really felt like a socialist since then too, I can't understand it. That said, I have a feeling that it is a backlash against 'woke' culture and the perceived changes to political correctness, and how the media has hugely blown that up. Social media, Infotainment and the internet have led to people feeling much more invigorated by politics, but unfortunately (in my opinion) they tend to want to 'rail against' something instead of working for something. Hence the Tory 'anyone but Corbyn' campaign and the Brexit 'anything but the EU' view. I think the right have done a fantastic job of getting mainly over 30s, previously not arsed people to feel like the left are a huge enemy, and the left are struggling to get people to either not care again or switch views. I find it staggering that saying over & over & over again how anyone who thinks differently to them is a racist, sexist, Islamophobic, transphobic, homophobic, xenophobic, bigotted, uneducated, hate filled, white supremacist, toxic man doesn't get anyone to switch views. Maybe they should try shouting it even louder, that might work...
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 15, 2020 13:09:21 GMT
Well yeah, exactly. As someone who's only voted for them since 2017, and only really felt like a socialist since then too, I can't understand it. That said, I have a feeling that it is a backlash against 'woke' culture and the perceived changes to political correctness, and how the media has hugely blown that up. Social media, Infotainment and the internet have led to people feeling much more invigorated by politics, but unfortunately (in my opinion) they tend to want to 'rail against' something instead of working for something. Hence the Tory 'anyone but Corbyn' campaign and the Brexit 'anything but the EU' view. I think the right have done a fantastic job of getting mainly over 30s, previously not arsed people to feel like the left are a huge enemy, and the left are struggling to get people to either not care again or switch views. I wouldn't expect you to agree with this man at all. You might even call him a racist , I wouldn't. But he probably is closer to representing the working class than Long Bailey. You might say that Labour don't want types like him backing them.......ok, he isn't......... PS...I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of his stance/ Labour's ideological debate at length AGAIN, so I'll leave it there. Hope we win today. I reckon that was the most articulate explanation of Leave and it’s frustrations that has been made.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2020 13:12:01 GMT
Well yeah, exactly. As someone who's only voted for them since 2017, and only really felt like a socialist since then too, I can't understand it. That said, I have a feeling that it is a backlash against 'woke' culture and the perceived changes to political correctness, and how the media has hugely blown that up. Social media, Infotainment and the internet have led to people feeling much more invigorated by politics, but unfortunately (in my opinion) they tend to want to 'rail against' something instead of working for something. Hence the Tory 'anyone but Corbyn' campaign and the Brexit 'anything but the EU' view. I think the right have done a fantastic job of getting mainly over 30s, previously not arsed people to feel like the left are a huge enemy, and the left are struggling to get people to either not care again or switch views. I wouldn't expect you to agree with this man at all. You might even call him a racist , I wouldn't. But he probably is closer to representing the working class than Long Bailey. You might say that Labour don't want types like him backing them.......ok, he isn't......... PS...I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of his stance/ Labour's ideological debate at length AGAIN, so I'll leave it there. Hope we win today. I don't think he's racist per se, I just see it as my point proven. The right have done a great job of making people rise up against migration, benefit frauds and cultural evolution. The left aren't having an easy job convincing people that those things aren't the issue. Unsure how they do it to be honest, because I think the right has done such a good job that in engraining that sentiment in people's minds that it's difficult to get any other view across. Personally, I see it as divide and conquer from the richest classes. Get the poor to blame immigrants and welfare recipients for their lack of opportunity instead of the richest who are hoarding the opportunity and wealth for themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2020 13:15:28 GMT
Well yeah, exactly. As someone who's only voted for them since 2017, and only really felt like a socialist since then too, I can't understand it. That said, I have a feeling that it is a backlash against 'woke' culture and the perceived changes to political correctness, and how the media has hugely blown that up. Social media, Infotainment and the internet have led to people feeling much more invigorated by politics, but unfortunately (in my opinion) they tend to want to 'rail against' something instead of working for something. Hence the Tory 'anyone but Corbyn' campaign and the Brexit 'anything but the EU' view. I think the right have done a fantastic job of getting mainly over 30s, previously not arsed people to feel like the left are a huge enemy, and the left are struggling to get people to either not care again or switch views. I find it staggering that saying over & over & over again how anyone who thinks differently to them is a racist, sexist, Islamophobic, transphobic, homophobic, xenophobic, bigotted, uneducated, hate filled, white supremacist, toxic man doesn't get anyone to switch views. Maybe they should try shouting it even louder, that might work... That's absolutely no different to Tories calling the left 'looney left', 'Marxist', 'Commie', 'Anti-Semite', and all the other shit left leaning people get. Why would people be more likely to take the side called the things you've mentioned over the things I listed? Because a significant amount of left wing people are now swinging right, and not the other way.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 15, 2020 13:18:29 GMT
Presumably the next Labour leader wants to be the Prime Minister of the UK. One way of looking at the role is that the PM is the Chief Executive Officer of the country. Rather than by executive appointment, or election, the appointee was decided by interview.
In my opinion, like any job, one of the first6 questions would be along the lines" Do you believe in this country?" Boris would be ebulient in his answer. ( Farage would be unequivocal) I get the impression that Corbyn / Long Bailey would have to say "It's not too bad but there are alot of mistakes that we have made on the world stage that we have to make up for and the minorities in the country need all our support against the majority "
Ideologically the left/ Labour might think that they are right and they might be right....personally I'd give the job to someone who can state clearly that they believe in it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2020 13:20:39 GMT
Presumably the next Labour leader wants to be the Prime Minister of the UK. One way of looking at the role is that the PM is the Chief Executive Officer of the country. Rather than by executive appointment, or election, the appointee was decided by interview. In my opinion, like any job, one of the first6 questions would be along the lines" Do you believe in this country?" Boris would be ebulient in his answer. ( Farage would be unequivocal) I get the impression that Corbyn / Long Bailey would have to say "It's not too bad but there are alot of mistakes that we have made on the world stage that we have to make up for and the minorities in the country need all our support against the majority " Ideologically the left/ Labour might think that they are right and they might be right....personally I'd give the job to someone who can state clearly that they believe in it. Corbyn was asked that question and unequivocally said 'Yes'.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 15, 2020 13:23:01 GMT
I wouldn't expect you to agree with this man at all. You might even call him a racist , I wouldn't. But he probably is closer to representing the working class than Long Bailey. You might say that Labour don't want types like him backing them.......ok, he isn't......... PS...I don't want to debate the rights and wrongs of his stance/ Labour's ideological debate at length AGAIN, so I'll leave it there. Hope we win today. I don't think he's racist per se, I just see it as my point proven. The right have done a great job of making people rise up against migration, benefit frauds and cultural evolution. The left aren't having an easy job convincing people that those things aren't the issue. Unsure how they do it to be honest, because I think the right has done such a good job that in engraining that sentiment in people's minds that it's difficult to get any other view across. Personally, I see it as divide and conquer from the richest classes. Get the poor to blame immigrants and welfare recipients for their lack of opportunity instead of the richest who are hoarding the opportunity and wealth for themselves. I don't think it proves your point. To me it equally "proves" that those who support Labour keep saying that people like the man in the video are thinking wrongly and need to change....some Labour supporters would call him racist...per se or not....He won't be voting for them in the real world.
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