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Post by neddy on Dec 3, 2019 9:47:45 GMT
I don’t have a go at the CEO or Board but what I do know from my 40 years in corporate life is that if you don’t change things complacencies creep in and more importantly you miss the benefit of fresh thinking. I just think the Board should think about that and I’m not meaning at team management level. I would add even in a private board of directors they can seek non exec support to search for fresh thinking and relevant challenge to their own views.....it’s not only important but essential in my view. If they already get that then fine but I don’t see it myself?
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Post by biglad180 on Dec 3, 2019 9:51:38 GMT
west brom are top because they bought alot better than us in the transfer market shrewd cheaper buys sawyers ajayi. we could have got both them. i would also have gone for Danny simpson from leicester at the time and saved 4 million. another good buy for me would have been mark albrighton of leicester. i think we could have got the lot for about 12 million pound.
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Post by biglad180 on Dec 3, 2019 9:54:10 GMT
west brom are top because they bought alot better than us in the transfer market shrewd cheaper buys sawyers ajayi. we could have got both them. i would also have gone for Danny simpson from leicester at the time and saved 4 million. another good buy for me would have been mark albrighton of leicester. i think we could have got the lot for about 12 million pound. plus a few young hungry loan buys at least if they did not come up to scratch we could have sent them back
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Post by thegrassyknoll on Dec 3, 2019 10:11:18 GMT
New chief executive , proven manager in England at a higher level . Structured planned recruitment policy we fail on all three and they are apparently very well positioned for FFP as it was the news CEO first task during the end of the relegation season Nearly right. Jenkins (who is the man in charge) used to be Peace's hatchet man, and returned after the board had blown all the money (over £30m+ in the bank) that had been accumulated in the Peace Greed League years. Ironically, Jenkins is a hated figure for many fans (and employees).
We have a absent Chinese owner who will not (cannot?) invest in the club, so WBA could not go down the route of just throwing money around like the Coates family.
Bilic's arrival was the turning point.
Being able to recoup money from selling Rondon, J Rod and Dawson gave the club some headroom to recruit Sawyers, Ajayi and Austin.
The loan market has been used to really good effect. Pereira Diagana and Krovinovic are PL quality.
Not every purchase has gone well (£9m for Zahore) but no doubt SCFC could do us another favour in January.
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Post by spiderpuss on Dec 3, 2019 10:20:15 GMT
Purely down to the fact that they have a board and structure that is run in the ways of the modern game and not one that is still stuck in the 90's trying to do everything on the cheap. For example they signed Sawyers and Ajayi, two players who are brilliant at this level....Stoke signed the eternal sicknote Nick Powell and Jordan Cousins on free transfers. Says it all. See my post above, we've not done things on the cheap. Those two WBA players you mention were 1/2 the cost of Benik Afobe. We've spent badly and hired incompetent managers but we have never never never done anything "On the cheap". In fact we've spent so much we're now in serious danger of falling foul of the FFP rules.
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Post by Frogger Theft Auto on Dec 3, 2019 10:32:19 GMT
I think we were rotten to the core and on our way down with the momentum of a bowling ball down a waterslide, with a squad of mercenaries that would turn their nose up at The Championship and an expectation to piss the league.
They're a yo-yo club, with a souped-up Championship squad that ended up relegated with a feel-good factor around the place. Far easier to put the brakes on their slide than ours.
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Post by lifelong on Dec 3, 2019 10:46:10 GMT
Professionalism instead of amateurs!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 10:51:39 GMT
west brom are top because they bought alot better than us in the transfer market shrewd cheaper buys sawyers ajayi. we could have got both them. i would also have gone for Danny simpson from leicester at the time and saved 4 million. another good buy for me would have been mark albrighton of leicester. i think we could have got the lot for about 12 million pound. But would they want us? I doubt that and many other fine options in the window avoided us at all costs. And they were right!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 10:53:15 GMT
Can anyone explain this amazing dilemma. The team we always used to beat, who were relegated below us, and got rid of an apparently excellent manager, but now top this division while we are looking down the barrel at Div 1. Are they just run better than us.As far as I am aware they have not spent anywhere near the sums that we have. What are they doing better than us. Please help as I am grinding my teeth to below gum level at the situation. They moved with the times and planned carefully. We didn't.
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Post by dingdongbell on Dec 3, 2019 11:00:18 GMT
Because, despite all their troubles, West Brom don't have a board of directors that are intent on running the club into the ground by doing everything on the cheap. Even when the do have a go at splashing a bit of cash, they end up paying premium prices for bargain basement players. You are saying Stoke are doing it on the cheap ? Have you not added up how much we have wasted on crap ,these last three years , must be North of £100 million . Or have you just started going this season ?.
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Post by biglad180 on Dec 3, 2019 11:13:50 GMT
west brom are top because they bought alot better than us in the transfer market shrewd cheaper buys sawyers ajayi. we could have got both them. i would also have gone for Danny simpson from leicester at the time and saved 4 million. another good buy for me would have been mark albrighton of leicester. i think we could have got the lot for about 12 million pound. But would they want us? I doubt that and many other fine options in the window avoided us at all costs. And they were right! they would not want us now mate but at the time yes i think they would have come. money talks mate in this game. thats all its about
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Post by roylandstoke on Dec 3, 2019 11:25:31 GMT
There really isn't any mystery. We appointed clueless idiots and spent millions on poor football players and gave them huge contracts. We appointed a minor agent with very limited knowledge or contacts to oversee football.
WBA chose to appoint competent managers (and in Bilic's case a football legend) and technical directors whose sole quality appears to have been being someone's mate.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 11:45:45 GMT
But would they want us? I doubt that and many other fine options in the window avoided us at all costs. And they were right! they would not want us now mate but at the time yes i think they would have come. money talks mate in this game. thats all its about No that's where you're wrong. We're paying bigger wages than any other Championship club yet every transfer window we stand by and watch the better players go elsewhere. Because the players realise that Bet365 is a graveyard. Their careers will only spiral downwards here.
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Post by starkiller on Dec 3, 2019 11:59:27 GMT
Our transfers are absolute garbage.
I'd like to know the absolute truth about our transfer policy, whatever dirt that may uncover.
Millions upon millions spaffed on utter dogshit for fees that no other club would pay.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Dec 3, 2019 12:00:16 GMT
We pulled the plug on a manager who stabilised us as a mid table Championship side because he didn't live up to wildly unrealistic expectations of instant promotion and took a massive gamble on an up and coming manager inexperienced at this level that didn't come off. West Brom stabilised and brought in a manager with experience as a player and manager at the highest level and kicked on.
Nobody will admit it but sacking Rowett when we did was a massive mistake.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Dec 3, 2019 12:07:50 GMT
New chief executive , proven manager in England at a higher level . Structured planned recruitment policy we fail on all three and they are apparently very well positioned for FFP as it was the news CEO first task during the end of the relegation season Nearly right. Jenkins (who is the man in charge) used to be Peace's hatchet man, and returned after the board had blown all the money (over £30m+ in the bank) that had been accumulated in the Peace Greed League years. Ironically, Jenkins is a hated figure for many fans (and employees).
We have a absent Chinese owner who will not (cannot?) invest in the club, so WBA could not go down the route of just throwing money around like the Coates family.
Bilic's arrival was the turning point.
Being able to recoup money from selling Rondon, J Rod and Dawson gave the club some headroom to recruit Sawyers, Ajayi and Austin.
The loan market has been used to really good effect. Pereira Diagana and Krovinovic are PL quality.
Not every purchase has gone well (£9m for Zahore) but no doubt SCFC could do us another favour in January.
Not nearly 100% you’ve a proper chief executive the most critical job in the club , sets the budget , recruits the senior team , executex the strategy well run club well done , ceo isn’t a popularity contest but it’s about being effective and recruiting and managing the right team
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Post by dirtygary69 on Dec 3, 2019 12:09:02 GMT
The differences are vast and depressing. If we can get relegated to League One without it absolutely killing the club and we can rebuild, I'd probably take it right now. All we are doing at the moment is throwing money at a problem that needs far more than that. We'll never get back to where we want to be with the Coates in charge running it as they are. Whatever happens come the summer, the club needs to be restructured. I know that's been said for the last two or three seasons but it simply has to happen. Unless O'Neill has something radical lined up in January then we are in for more of the same for at least the next 6 months - slow, ponderous football with players who aren't worth a fraction of what they are getting paid. If we survive and don't change how we operate, it'll be the same again next year.
We are a terrible team in a largely average league but it's almost as if the board don't have any pride. If that was me, I'd be going fucking apoplectic after losing at home to Blackburn, AGAIN. Instead it's just a shrug of the shoulders and hope we can get something next week. The club doesn't feel angry, it just feels flat.
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Dec 3, 2019 12:11:05 GMT
New owner arrives in 2017:
Club is in a shitshow and gets relegated in his first season so he:
-Sacks the Chairman and CEO
-Brings in the superb Luke Dowling as Sporting Director to overhaul the recruitment process and implement strategy
-Much better recruitment, including exploiting the PL youth market to bring in Barnes on loan, they'd have gone up for me if he'd stayed. Judicious use of money to shore up a couple of questionable positions. All the while selling some ageing assets and freeing up squad space. Give academy lads decent playing time.
-Brave enough to sack Darren Moore when they lose key games to their promotion rivals and their performances suffer despite their position. Caretaker equals Moore's overall PPG and sees them to the playoffs where they lose to a surging Villa side. They copped some real shit for that but it's been proven to be the right decision.
-Sacking Moore allows them to bring in a good and proven manager in Slaven Bilic, well known for doing well with clubs in his first couple of years.
-More excellent recruitment, securing Romaine Sawyers as the fulcrum of the side. Older players are sold or run out of contract as they've not committed to aged players that much, squad continue to get younger. Good use of PL loans again to bring in younger players like Diangana and Periera.
-Set way of playing with key players in position, best possible launch pad to start a promotion push.
Pretty much it, in a nutshell. A complete culture change after relegation, implementation of a strategy with the appointment of Dowling as a sporting director and commitment to a transfer strategy (continually getting squad age down).
Everything we were promised in 2018...and precisely nothing that was delivered.
We need a sporting director, it's clear as fucking day to everyone. Piece together the "strategy" we've implemented since we've gone down, there isn't one. No continuity in managerial appointments in terms of style of desired playing staff meaning we just accumulate players and have a massive, bloated and overaged squad.
It's a fucking disgrace and they still get away with it with people making out it's just the fault of the managers.
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Post by samstokie1 on Dec 3, 2019 12:12:42 GMT
they went for a guy who was a top half prem manager 2 years ago whereas we went for two blokes who had ok seasons in lower divisions
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Dec 3, 2019 12:18:16 GMT
they went for a guy who was a top half prem manager 2 years ago whereas we went for two blokes who had ok seasons in lower divisions Darren Moore had only caretaker experience when he had them in 4th last year. There's more to it than the managers, it's the structures around them that allow them to thrive. Sacking Moore was a bold call and people erroneously say it's what caused them to miss out. It didn't, Shan did just as well and it allowed them to bring in Bilic as the final piece of the puzzle. But they were way better than us even when we had the more experienced Championship manager in Gary Rowett. That is down to Dowling and their recruitment and administration strategies.
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Post by thestatusquo on Dec 3, 2019 12:38:03 GMT
Only two words required
Competence v incompetent
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Post by dirtygary69 on Dec 3, 2019 12:44:32 GMT
We pulled the plug on a manager who stabilised us as a mid table Championship side because he didn't live up to wildly unrealistic expectations of instant promotion and took a massive gamble on an up and coming manager inexperienced at this level that didn't come off. West Brom stabilised and brought in a manager with experience as a player and manager at the highest level and kicked on. Nobody will admit it but sacking Rowett when we did was a massive mistake. In hindsight, yes. At the time, no. He dug his own grave.
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Post by tosh on Dec 3, 2019 12:55:31 GMT
We pulled the plug on a manager who stabilised us as a mid table Championship side because he didn't live up to wildly unrealistic expectations of instant promotion and took a massive gamble on an up and coming manager inexperienced at this level that didn't come off. West Brom stabilised and brought in a manager with experience as a player and manager at the highest level and kicked on. Nobody will admit it but sacking Rowett when we did was a massive mistake. It was only a mistake in the context of what turned out to be the much worse appointment of Nathan Jones. Rowett’s signings were expensive and way overpriced poor value signings with little character, who looked at best mid table championship. If we could have changed to a West Brom type of management set up and Bilic type of appointment at that point, we might have still been in a position to rebuild and challenge. Unfortunately Jones was way out of his depth and panicked, and was then allowed to pack the dressing room with league 1 plodders and declining has beens, that we will not be able to get rid of. We now have a huge squad of inadequate players with no game changers, no match winners, and no confidence or team spirit. In a word we are in one hell of a mess. I don’t envy Michael O’Neill his job one bit. If he can sort that lot out he’s a brilliant manager!
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Dec 3, 2019 12:56:46 GMT
We pulled the plug on a manager who stabilised us as a mid table Championship side because he didn't live up to wildly unrealistic expectations of instant promotion and took a massive gamble on an up and coming manager inexperienced at this level that didn't come off. West Brom stabilised and brought in a manager with experience as a player and manager at the highest level and kicked on. Nobody will admit it but sacking Rowett when we did was a massive mistake. In hindsight, yes. At the time, no. He dug his own grave. His position became untenable but there are better reasons to sack a manager than his likeability which in large part did for him. You're right hindsight is a wonderful thing - but it's a decision that made a massive contribution to where we are and goes largely unrecognised.
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Post by thevoid on Dec 3, 2019 13:16:34 GMT
Can anyone explain this amazing dilemma. The team we always used to beat, who were relegated below us, and got rid of an apparently excellent manager, but now top this division while we are looking down the barrel at Div 1. Are they just run better than us.As far as I am aware they have not spent anywhere near the sums that we have. What are they doing better than us. Please help as I am grinding my teeth to below gum level at the situation. Choice of managers - nothing difficult to understand at all. Would you have been happy with Bilic mate?
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Post by madeleystokie on Dec 3, 2019 13:17:23 GMT
We're not bottom
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Post by PotterLog on Dec 3, 2019 13:20:59 GMT
The suggestion that our problem is “doing things on the cheap” is the wrongest thing since Mr Wrong set up his wrong shop in Wrongland
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Dec 3, 2019 13:28:32 GMT
We pulled the plug on a manager who stabilised us as a mid table Championship side because he didn't live up to wildly unrealistic expectations of instant promotion and took a massive gamble on an up and coming manager inexperienced at this level that didn't come off. West Brom stabilised and brought in a manager with experience as a player and manager at the highest level and kicked on. Nobody will admit it but sacking Rowett when we did was a massive mistake. It was only a mistake in the context of what turned out to be the much worse appointment of Nathan Jones. Rowett’s signings were expensive and way overpriced poor value signings with little character, who looked at best mid table championship. If we could have changed to a West Brom type of management set up and Bilic type of appointment at that point, we might have still been in a position to rebuild and challenge. Unfortunately Jones was way out of his depth and panicked, and was then allowed to pack the dressing room with league 1 plodders and declining has beens, that we will not be able to get rid of. We now have a huge squad of inadequate players with no game changers, no match winners, and no confidence or team spirit. In a word we are in one hell of a mess. I don’t envy Michael O’Neill his job one bit. If he can sort that lot out he’s a brilliant manager! Agreed re O'Neil - I just hope we give him more time and credit than Rowett. The big advantage he has is lowered expectations - survival will be a major achievement.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Dec 3, 2019 14:08:33 GMT
We pulled the plug on a manager who stabilised us as a mid table Championship side because he didn't live up to wildly unrealistic expectations of instant promotion and took a massive gamble on an up and coming manager inexperienced at this level that didn't come off. West Brom stabilised and brought in a manager with experience as a player and manager at the highest level and kicked on. Nobody will admit it but sacking Rowett when we did was a massive mistake. It was only a mistake in the context of what turned out to be the much worse appointment of Nathan Jones. Rowett’s signings were expensive and way overpriced poor value signings with little character, who looked at best mid table championship. If we could have changed to a West Brom type of management set up and Bilic type of appointment at that point, we might have still been in a position to rebuild and challenge. Unfortunately Jones was way out of his depth and panicked, and was then allowed to pack the dressing room with league 1 plodders and declining has beens, that we will not be able to get rid of. We now have a huge squad of inadequate players with no game changers, no match winners, and no confidence or team spirit. In a word we are in one hell of a mess. I don’t envy Michael O’Neill his job one bit. If he can sort that lot out he’s a brilliant manager! Spot on. It flat out wasn't a mistake to sack Rowett. If you outspend the rest of the division comfortably while keep most of your high profile players you're going to be up there with the favourites. You have to deal with that if you're any kind of decent manager. It wasn't just 'likeability' with him. He wasted the money. He neglected key areas of the side. He ostracised virtually all creativity. The Bojan thing became the issue it did because we were crying out for creativity and were struggling to manage more than one shot on target even at home to the poor sides because he hadn't built a team capable of breaking defensive sides down. He was used to managing underdogs and didn't know anything else. When he left we were a worse side than the one he'd inherited because he'd piled dross on top of dross, addressing none of the myriad problems he'd inherited and creating more. He is not the chief architect of our situation but he is a contributor nevertheless.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 14:39:19 GMT
Nobody will admit it but sacking Rowett when we did was a massive mistake. That's because appointing Rowett was the bigger mistake. Just look at everything that's wrong with us now, and at least half of it goes back to his poor decision making. I don't believe he was sacked because he couldn't deliver promotion. It was getting unlikely, but we weren't so far behind that it was altogether impossible. He was sacked because he was picking fights with everyone, the fans, the administrative section, board members, individual players. He had to go.
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