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Post by serpico on Dec 2, 2019 19:59:12 GMT
If he thinks labour are to blame then he should say so, then we can have the debate about whether or not he's right, if he is right then the people can hold labour to account by not voting for them, isn't that how politics work ? if labour have fucked up and its led to this catastrophe then people are entitled to know it and vote accordingly. We elect leaders to high office in order to appraise themselves of evidence, then make difficult decisions on matters of life and death in a calm and level-headed manner. Not to get into emotive slanging matches in the mass media long before the proper authorities have gathered all the facts. What Boris Johnson is engaged in isn't anything so dignified as a "debate" - and of course he's going to say Labour are to blame. That's not exactly a revelatory piece of insightful analysis that's in the public interest is it. He's hardly likely to say "actually sorry we fucked up", even if deep down he thinks his party have. Anyway, you have the debate you wanted, and Mr Merritt has decided to get involved too. well, maybe Grenfel changed all that, there was no restraint by the left on apportioning blame there Or "just asking questions" as they put it at the time, even as the tower still smouldered corbyn and co were pointing fingers, nobody waited for an investigation there, the prime minister at the time couldn't even visit the place such was the furore the left drummed up about how it was all evil tories fault.
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 2, 2019 20:01:37 GMT
Haven't we tried this ethical foreign policy before, or was it just talked about? Since when has not wanting to be complicit in the killing of tens of thousands of innocent Yemenis by selling bombs to a rogue state been “ethical?” It’s should be the standard stance to take by anyone with a shred of decency...... It’s like Robert Clive of Salop. The chickens are coming home to roost & for all their bluster, the roosters aren’t upto it🐓
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Post by vokeswagen on Dec 2, 2019 20:15:07 GMT
We elect leaders to high office in order to appraise themselves of evidence, then make difficult decisions on matters of life and death in a calm and level-headed manner. Not to get into emotive slanging matches in the mass media long before the proper authorities have gathered all the facts. What Boris Johnson is engaged in isn't anything so dignified as a "debate" - and of course he's going to say Labour are to blame. That's not exactly a revelatory piece of insightful analysis that's in the public interest is it. He's hardly likely to say "actually sorry we fucked up", even if deep down he thinks his party have. Anyway, you have the debate you wanted, and Mr Merritt has decided to get involved too. well, maybe Grenfel changed all that, there was no restraint by the left on apportioning blame there Or "just asking questions" as they put it at the time, even as the tower still soldered corbyn and co were pointing fingers, nobody waited for an investigation there, the prime minister at the time couldn't even visit the place such was the furore the left drummed up about how it was all evil tories fault. If you want to go back through time looking for examples of when different people of all political persuasions have tried to score cheap points from tragedy, we can do that. It doesn't achieve a great deal though because it's neither a "left" or "right" thing. To pretend it is would be completely delusional. Also just because other people did something morally questionable doesn't mean it's okay for everyone to do it. A good leader would set an example, rather than follow the worst examples of others. The fact remains that Boris Johnson had the opportunity to take a moral high ground here and decided not to. I don't imagine Mr Merritt is concerning himself with who said what, when, years ago. He asked someone to respect his views and not score political points from his son's death - particularly as his son didn't agree with the person scoring the points - and he was ignored.
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 2, 2019 20:29:00 GMT
well, maybe Grenfel changed all that, there was no restraint by the left on apportioning blame there Or "just asking questions" as they put it at the time, even as the tower still soldered corbyn and co were pointing fingers, nobody waited for an investigation there, the prime minister at the time couldn't even visit the place such was the furore the left drummed up about how it was all evil tories fault. If you want to go back through time looking for examples of when different people of all political persuasions have tried to score cheap points from tragedy, we can do that. It doesn't achieve a great deal though because it's neither a "left" or "right" thing. To pretend it is would be completely delusional. Also just because other people did something morally questionable doesn't mean it's okay for everyone to do it. A good leader would set an example, rather than follow the worst examples of others. The fact remains that Boris Johnson had the opportunity to take a moral high ground here and decided not to. I don't imagine Mr Merritt is concerning himself with who said what, when, years ago. He asked someone to respect his views and not score political points from his son's death - particularly as his son didn't agree with the person scoring the points - and he was ignored. The only fitting fate for Bonzo is that he his his cocks spliced & then has a Prince Albert in each half, in conjunction with his own sense of self. Then have two shirehorses tethered to each Prince Albert & twixed in two 🐎🐓🐎
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Post by serpico on Dec 2, 2019 20:38:35 GMT
well, maybe Grenfel changed all that, there was no restraint by the left on apportioning blame there Or "just asking questions" as they put it at the time, even as the tower still soldered corbyn and co were pointing fingers, nobody waited for an investigation there, the prime minister at the time couldn't even visit the place such was the furore the left drummed up about how it was all evil tories fault. If you want to go back through time looking for examples of when different people of all political persuasions have tried to score cheap points from tragedy, we can do that. It doesn't achieve a great deal though because it's neither a "left" or "right" thing. To pretend it is would be completely delusional. Also just because other people did something morally questionable doesn't mean it's okay for everyone to do it. A good leader would set an example, rather than follow the worst examples of others. The fact remains that Boris Johnson had the opportunity to take a moral high ground here and decided not to. I don't imagine Mr Merritt is concerning himself with who said what, when, years ago. He asked someone to respect his views and not score political points from his son's death - particularly as his son didn't agree with the person scoring the points - and he was ignored. it was more to point out the hypocrisy of the people who are now crying "stop politicising a tragedy" .. the only reason they don't want it politicised is because they have nothing to gain from it, corbyn is seen as soft on terrorism (rightly or wrongly, he just is) and this guys early release was down to a 2008 labour legislation which meant he could get out after serving only half his term, thats whats really behind the call to not politicise it. Mr Merritt is entitled to his opinion and i massively sympathise with him, but i'd be reacting slightly different if i was in his shoes, i'd be lobbying to have convicted terrorists locked up for life (actual life) after this, these people had plotted murder on a massive scale, its too risky to allow them out, the fact this guy was walking the streets should shock everyone, we need the debate now, not in a few months time.
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Post by vokeswagen on Dec 2, 2019 21:15:42 GMT
If you want to go back through time looking for examples of when different people of all political persuasions have tried to score cheap points from tragedy, we can do that. It doesn't achieve a great deal though because it's neither a "left" or "right" thing. To pretend it is would be completely delusional. Also just because other people did something morally questionable doesn't mean it's okay for everyone to do it. A good leader would set an example, rather than follow the worst examples of others. The fact remains that Boris Johnson had the opportunity to take a moral high ground here and decided not to. I don't imagine Mr Merritt is concerning himself with who said what, when, years ago. He asked someone to respect his views and not score political points from his son's death - particularly as his son didn't agree with the person scoring the points - and he was ignored. it was more to point out the hypocrisy of the people who are now crying "stop politicising a tragedy" .. the only reason they don't want it politicised is because they have nothing to gain from it, corbyn is seen as soft on terrorism (rightly or wrongly, he just is) and this guys early release was down to a 2008 labour legislation which meant he could get out after serving only half his term, thats whats really behind the call to not politicise it. Mr Merritt is entitled to his opinion and i massively sympathise with him, but i'd be reacting slightly different if i was in his shoes, i'd be lobbying to have convicted terrorists locked up for life (actual life) after this, these people had plotted murder on a massive scale, its too risky to allow them out, the fact this guy was walking the streets should shock everyone, we need the debate now, not in a few months time. We're talking about Mr Merritt though aren't we. He's the one asking for the tragedy to not be politicised, and he's not hypocritical, he's a bereaved father with a genuine agenda. Re: your point about this guy's early release being entirely down to a Labour Party policy, I found this an interesting, if lengthy read. thesecretbarrister.com/The danger with having the wider debate now is that we don't have all the evidence to hand, and what evidence we do have is being drowned out by very distasteful hysteria that shouldn't form part of any sensible debate.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Dec 2, 2019 21:20:38 GMT
I'm guessing one of Mr Merrit's main causes for concern is about shameless opportunistic wank rags using the death of his compassionate son to further their vile electioneering.
/photo/1
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Post by trickydicky73 on Dec 2, 2019 22:52:41 GMT
Haven't we tried this ethical foreign policy before, or was it just talked about? Since when has not wanting to be complicit in the killing of tens of thousands of innocent Yemenis by selling bombs to a rogue state been “ethical?” It’s should be the standard stance to take by anyone with a shred of decency...... Not disagreeing, Presser, just pointing back to Robin Cook times. Fully with you on this.
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Post by followyoudown on Dec 2, 2019 23:00:23 GMT
Re Libya no it hasn't the NFZ stopped regime forces who were going to a city I forget the name to wipe it out. In syria corbyn and all support Assad and his murderous cronies. I suggest you read the whole tweet thread from a journalist with a middle eastern background really takes apart the idea Jezza is some foreign policy mystic. I've read it, and with respect to his geography the bit about Libya is a load of old bollocks. Libya was a country where despite it's many faults gave free education and healthcare to its citizens, had clean water, no debt, cheap food and oil prices. The intervention that he claims the people were grateful for sent Black Libyans back hundreds of years into the slave trade. In the 21st century! Human trafficking, no rule of law, mass rapings and beatings throughout the land. People fleeing for their lives. And Corbyn is the bad guy for his stance on the NFZ? What a joke. I haven't looked at the Syria piece but will when I get the chance...... Libya we learnt no lessons from Iraq we left them swinging after Gaddafi fell so Isis and all stepped and regardless of your views the NFZ saved several hundred thousand peoples livess.
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Post by serpico on Dec 3, 2019 13:22:18 GMT
I've read it, and with respect to his geography the bit about Libya is a load of old bollocks. Libya was a country where despite it's many faults gave free education and healthcare to its citizens, had clean water, no debt, cheap food and oil prices. The intervention that he claims the people were grateful for sent Black Libyans back hundreds of years into the slave trade. In the 21st century! Human trafficking, no rule of law, mass rapings and beatings throughout the land. People fleeing for their lives. And Corbyn is the bad guy for his stance on the NFZ? What a joke. I haven't looked at the Syria piece but will when I get the chance...... Libya we learnt no lessons from Iraq we left them swinging after Gaddafi fell so Isis and all stepped and regardless of your views the NFZ saved several hundred thousand peoples livess. Surely the lesson from Iraq was don’t intervene ? Absent sending in 100s of thousands of troops Libya was always going fall into chaos after gadaffi was ousted.
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Post by followyoudown on Dec 3, 2019 13:31:47 GMT
Libya we learnt no lessons from Iraq we left them swinging after Gaddafi fell so Isis and all stepped and regardless of your views the NFZ saved several hundred thousand peoples livess. Surely the lesson from Iraq was don’t intervene ? Absent sending in 100s of thousands of troops Libya was always going fall into chaos after gadaffi was ousted. I think the lesson is if you intervene have a plan on what to do next once you remove the leadership.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 13:32:29 GMT
I'm guessing one of Mr Merrit's main causes for concern is about shameless opportunistic wank rags using the death of his compassionate son to further their vile electioneering. /photo/1 As callous as Mr. Bloom is there, hard to say he's wrong no?
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Post by serpico on Dec 3, 2019 13:58:24 GMT
Surely the lesson from Iraq was don’t intervene ? Absent sending in 100s of thousands of troops Libya was always going fall into chaos after gadaffi was ousted. I think the lesson is if you intervene have a plan on what to do next once you remove the leadership. A plan is all well and good, but as mike Tyson said, everyone’s got a plan until they get punched in the face, once you oust someone there will always be hundreds of groups vying for power, especially in countries in the Middle East/Africa where there are groups within groups, within sects within factions, warlords and god knows what else. if you go in you have to go all in, no half measures, but imo We’re better off staying out, what do we benefit from any of this ? Nothing as far as I can see.
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Post by followyoudown on Dec 3, 2019 16:19:20 GMT
I think the lesson is if you intervene have a plan on what to do next once you remove the leadership. A plan is all well and good, but as mike Tyson said, everyone’s got a plan until they get punched in the face, once you oust someone there will always be hundreds of groups vying for power, especially in countries in the Middle East/Africa where there are groups within groups, within sects within factions, warlords and god knows what else. if you go in you have to go all in, no half measures, but imo We’re better off staying out, what do we benefit from any of this ? Nothing as far as I can see. Much of that is true with Iraq specifically ignoring whether we should have been anyway near it I believe the problem was not just removing Sadaam they removed anyone with links to the baathist party which was pretty much the whole ruling class which obviously pissed them off and led to some of them forming Al Quaeda in Iraq or whatever they called themselves.
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Post by serpico on Dec 3, 2019 16:48:06 GMT
A plan is all well and good, but as mike Tyson said, everyone’s got a plan until they get punched in the face, once you oust someone there will always be hundreds of groups vying for power, especially in countries in the Middle East/Africa where there are groups within groups, within sects within factions, warlords and god knows what else. if you go in you have to go all in, no half measures, but imo We’re better off staying out, what do we benefit from any of this ? Nothing as far as I can see. Much of that is true with Iraq specifically ignoring whether we should have been anyway near it I believe the problem was not just removing Sadaam they removed anyone with links to the baathist party which was pretty much the whole ruling class which obviously pissed them off and led to some of them forming Al Quaeda in Iraq or whatever they called themselves. Indeed, the yanks insisted that the Iraqi police and army were disbanded. I think it’s in the leaked Downing Street memo in which it says that Bush totally disregarded any possibility of internecine warfare in a post saddam Iraq, just shows how clueless they were to the Sunni/Shia divide there, it’s why we shouldn’t get involved, we don’t understand the complexities of the region well enough.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Dec 6, 2019 16:50:28 GMT
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Post by Northy on Dec 6, 2019 17:05:56 GMT
Using his dead son as a political pawn already?
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Post by Kilo on Dec 6, 2019 17:21:57 GMT
Using his dead son as a political pawn already? He was writing articles in the Guardian two days after his son was brutally stabbed to death. I don't think I'd be in any state in the same circumstances.
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Post by thevoid on Dec 6, 2019 17:40:36 GMT
Using his dead son as a political pawn already? His son had a rather idealistic, Guardian-centric way of looking at things, such as terrorists being deradicalised, and events last week prove that he was probably backing the wrong horse. As for Mr Merritt Senior, he makes the McCanns look like amateurs. If a member of my immediate family had died naturally, never mind in the manner Jack did, the last thing on my mind for the next week or so would be social media. Very strange.
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Post by Kilo on Dec 6, 2019 18:10:38 GMT
Using his dead son as a political pawn already? His son had a rather idealistic, Guardian-centric way of looking at things, such as terrorists being deradicalised, and events last week prove that he was probably backing the wrong horse. As for Mr Merritt Senior, he makes the McCanns look like amateurs. If a member of my immediate family had died naturally, never mind in the manner Jack did, the last thing on my mind for the next week or so would be social media. Very strange. On the day of his son's murder he was retweeting Extinction Rebellion and has tweeted or retweeted more than 100 times in a week. I'm glad I'm not a socialist, I couldn't live my life like that. I'd be feeling very guilty for giving my son his life beliefs.
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Post by thevoid on Dec 6, 2019 18:12:09 GMT
His son had a rather idealistic, Guardian-centric way of looking at things, such as terrorists being deradicalised, and events last week prove that he was probably backing the wrong horse. As for Mr Merritt Senior, he makes the McCanns look like amateurs. If a member of my immediate family had died naturally, never mind in the manner Jack did, the last thing on my mind for the next week or so would be social media. Very strange. On the day of his son's murder he was retweeting Extinction Rebellion and has tweeted or retweeted more than 100 times in a week. I'm glad I'm not a socialist, I couldn't live my life like that. I'd be feeling very guilty for giving my son his life beliefs. Seems like a bit of a cold fish
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Post by Kilo on Dec 6, 2019 18:18:48 GMT
On the day of his son's murder he was retweeting Extinction Rebellion and has tweeted or retweeted more than 100 times in a week. I'm glad I'm not a socialist, I couldn't live my life like that. I'd be feeling very guilty for giving my son his life beliefs. Seems like a bit of a cold fish Jack's friends and family are also trying to raise £30K via crowd funding so they can have a big party - summat's not right with the world!
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 6, 2019 18:23:05 GMT
Using his dead son as a political pawn already? His son had a rather idealistic, Guardian-centric way of looking at things, such as terrorists being deradicalised, and events last week prove that he was probably backing the wrong horse. As for Mr Merritt Senior, he makes the McCanns look like amateurs. If a member of my immediate family had died naturally, never mind in the manner Jack did, the last thing on my mind for the next week or so would be social media. Very strange. Yeah, He had it coming to him...ffs
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Post by thevoid on Dec 6, 2019 18:30:09 GMT
His son had a rather idealistic, Guardian-centric way of looking at things, such as terrorists being deradicalised, and events last week prove that he was probably backing the wrong horse. As for Mr Merritt Senior, he makes the McCanns look like amateurs. If a member of my immediate family had died naturally, never mind in the manner Jack did, the last thing on my mind for the next week or so would be social media. Very strange. Yeah, He had it coming to him...ffs Did I say that?
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Post by 4372 on Dec 6, 2019 18:43:03 GMT
Of course, he could just be working his way through his grief in the best way he can.
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Post by serpico on Dec 6, 2019 20:05:21 GMT
Getting involved in twitter spats probably isn't how i'd grieve but we're all different. Perfectly honest its all a bit weird, the lad had at least 50 years of life left to live and its been taken away by an evil bastard following an evil ideology, i'd be more angry at the person who did this and angry at how we're allowing this scum to walk the streets freely and even letting them acquire large knives than anything else, but even so, i'd probably need at least a few months to grieve before even saying anything, i certainly wouldn't be bothered about tactical voting!
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Post by followyoudown on Dec 6, 2019 22:10:37 GMT
Of course, he could just be working his way through his grief in the best way he can. No parent should ever have to bury a child he is entitled to try and deal with it in whatever way he feels, his sons very sad death does not however mean his life's work was correct, the failure to accept some people are beyond help ultimately cost him his life but could have very easily cost many more people their lives.
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 7, 2019 8:21:38 GMT
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Post by thevoid on Dec 8, 2019 22:21:52 GMT
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Post by bathstoke on Dec 9, 2019 8:55:42 GMT
Tin hat on here, but he isn’t the only person to have been non plussed by 11/9. I said at the time that after decades of America funding Noraid they have terrorism on their soil, but typical of the Yanks, they had to go overboard with it!
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