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Post by gingerninja on Jul 29, 2020 8:10:45 GMT
Vokes for me is the issue, way too immobile for us moving forward, that said I can't see any way we could shift him even if we wanted to.
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Post by CillaBlacksPissFlaps on Jul 29, 2020 8:25:06 GMT
Vokes in a two up top is a very decent striker, at Burnley he always played as two with Barnes or Wood, you could see an instant improvement when we changed to two up top, he has never played up top on his own and chasing down defenders is not his game, winning headers, holding up play and being a threat in the oppositions box is. If we stick with two up top which I reckon we should, Vokes will be a decent option in a two for sure.
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Post by xchpotter on Jul 29, 2020 8:33:22 GMT
Obviously they will try and loan out or sell on the 7 loanees returning, do we think there are any others in or around the 1st team who may move/be moved on?. Given his lack of game time towards the end of say Ince is on the list. I sincerely hope so unless MON has told him to sort his shit out for the start of the season. When he is on his game, Ince is a very useful player, but his average performance at best can only be described as playing with ten men. See how he starts, if he isn’t up for it then do what we can under the restraints to off load him somewhere.
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Post by werrington on Jul 29, 2020 8:33:32 GMT
Vokes for me is the issue, way too immobile for us moving forward, that said I can't see any way we could shift him even if we wanted to. Campbell, Gregory etc are different animals when Vokes plays On his own is throwing him under the bus
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jul 29, 2020 8:37:08 GMT
There isn't a chance of us getting rid of Vokes due to the massive loss we'll make on him and the absurdity of his wages so we better start looking at ways of getting more out of him. By and large he's been shite and away from home, nine times out of ten, a liability.
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Post by gingerninja on Jul 29, 2020 8:45:30 GMT
Heard anything Cilla?
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Post by FullerMagic on Jul 29, 2020 8:49:12 GMT
There is a pretty specific skill set needed for the lone striker, isn't there? Are we sure any of the 4 strikers (Vokes, Afobe, Campbell, Gregory) tick all the boxes?
If we're putting all our eggs in the 'Benik will come good basket', , in terms of adding something up front, it is a bit of a risk given how poor he was when he played that role, his cruciate injury, lack of recent form and recent tragedy.
As has been said, Vokes often looks lost there as well as it's pretty alien to him.
Suppose it depends on how much he sees the 3-at-the-back as a proper alternative system which opens up the two up front.
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Post by tosh on Jul 29, 2020 8:50:19 GMT
Vokes in a two up top is a very decent striker, at Burnley he always played as two with Barnes or Wood, you could see an instant improvement when we changed to two up top, he has never played up top on his own and chasing down defenders is not his game, winning headers, holding up play and being a threat in the oppositions box is. If we stick with two up top which I reckon we should, Vokes will be a decent option in a two for sure. Wasn’t his most successful pairing with Danny Ings? Twenty goals apiece as a partnership got Burnley promoted. That would be handy if we could find the right partnership and the right service!
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Post by mrcoke on Jul 29, 2020 8:52:21 GMT
There isn't a chance of us getting rid of Vokes due to the massive loss we'll make on him and the absurdity of his wages so we better start looking at ways of getting more out of him. By and large he's been shite and away from home, nine times out of ten, a liability. I agree with your first sentence; your second is very harsh. 7 goals is not a bad haul considering how many matches he has been left out to dry on his own, where he clearly does not have the speed and ball skills to beat men. But is is very good at holding the ball and heading, if he can get to it. None of our forwards are very good on their own, nor are any of them a "20 goals a season" striker, but between them the team have scored well since MON arrived. We have what the previous managers have bought and are stuck with them for the time being. It is the goals conceded we have to arrest if we are to challenge for a play-off place, and then spend on top class strikers if we were promoted.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jul 29, 2020 9:28:43 GMT
There isn't a chance of us getting rid of Vokes due to the massive loss we'll make on him and the absurdity of his wages so we better start looking at ways of getting more out of him. By and large he's been shite and away from home, nine times out of ten, a liability. I agree with your first sentence; your second is very harsh. 7 goals is not a bad haul considering how many matches he has been left out to dry on his own, where he clearly does not have the speed and ball skills to beat men. But is is very good at holding the ball and heading, if he can get to it. None of our forwards are very good on their own, nor are any of them a "20 goals a season" striker, but between them the team have scored well since MON arrived. We have what the previous managers have bought and are stuck with them for the time being. It is the goals conceded we have to arrest if we are to challenge for a play-off place, and then spend on top class strikers if we were promoted. I just can't see us playing a proper two regularly away from home. If that's the case then I think Vokes is the worst option we have.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 11:30:17 GMT
Vokes for me is the issue, way too immobile for us moving forward, that said I can't see any way we could shift him even if we wanted to. You have to understand his role, i.e. his job description. His job is not run around as if he was Lee Gregory or James McClean. They do that fairly well by themselves. Vokes' role is to be the one fix point, the focal point, for all the other runners and skillful men in what is de facto the five men in midfield. And also for Batth et al when they are in a hoofing mode. It's not necessarily his role to get 20 goals per season (although it wouldn't hurt if he got more than this year's haul). Instead he is one of the last points before the assist and/or goal attempt is made. He combines very well with Powell and Clucas, also he frequently creates space for them by forcing two opposing defenders to sit tight on him. It's worked very well for us once we got out of the starting blocks post lockdown. Only time can tell whether it will continue so.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 11:42:54 GMT
Given his lack of game time towards the end of say Ince is on the list. I sincerely hope so unless MON has told him to sort his shit out for the start of the season. When he is on his game, Ince is a very useful player, but his average performance at best can only be described as playing with ten men. See how he starts, if he isn’t up for it then do what we can under the restraints to off load him somewhere. I'm certain that O'Neill sees a potentially useful player in Ince and will be unwilling to let him go unless an unthinkably good offer comes in. O'Neill will just have decided that Ince's lack of confidence and unwillingness to "die for the team" wasn't what was needed as we fought to avoid relegation. He tried Gregory instead, which might have been a dud, but as it turned out was a brilliant decision. But O'Neill won't be planning to be fighting relegation next term. He might be needing Gregory less, but will bring Ince as a player who can create something and chip in with goals. perhaps as a sub at first, but eventually, as Ince regains his confidence, as a key player. But make no mistake about it, if Ince fails O'Neill's taking a chance on him, then it will finally be the end of his career, or at least with us for the remaining time of his contract.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jul 29, 2020 12:02:32 GMT
Vokes for me is the issue, way too immobile for us moving forward, that said I can't see any way we could shift him even if we wanted to. You have to understand his role, i.e. his job description. His job is not run around as if he was Lee Gregory or James McClean. They do that fairly well by themselves. Vokes' role is to be the one fix point, the focal point, for all the other runners and skillful men in what is de facto the five men in midfield. And also for Batth et al when they are in a hoofing mode. It's not necessarily his role to get 20 goals per season (although it wouldn't hurt if he got more than this year's haul). Instead he is one of the last points before the assist and/or goal attempt is made. He combines very well with Powell and Clucas, also he frequently creates space for them by forcing two opposing defenders to sit tight on him. It's worked very well for us once we got out of the starting blocks post lockdown. Only time can tell whether it will continue so. You right in that his job is to be a target for the long ball forward and to bring in the players around him. The thing is he's crap at it - in particular he hardly wins anything in the air with his back to goal and never loses his man. We don't have anyone on the books for that role. The best option we have is Gregory given his energy and the way he works the defenders - but then the ball forward should be one for him to run on to rather than hold up as per the classic target man - which in turn means the other strikers and midfielders being much sharper in getting up to support him.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 14:08:30 GMT
You have to understand his role, i.e. his job description. His job is not run around as if he was Lee Gregory or James McClean. They do that fairly well by themselves. Vokes' role is to be the one fix point, the focal point, for all the other runners and skillful men in what is de facto the five men in midfield. And also for Batth et al when they are in a hoofing mode. It's not necessarily his role to get 20 goals per season (although it wouldn't hurt if he got more than this year's haul). Instead he is one of the last points before the assist and/or goal attempt is made. He combines very well with Powell and Clucas, also he frequently creates space for them by forcing two opposing defenders to sit tight on him. It's worked very well for us once we got out of the starting blocks post lockdown. Only time can tell whether it will continue so. You right in that his job is to be a target for the long ball forward and to bring in the players around him. The thing is he's crap at it - in particular he hardly wins anything in the air with his back to goal and never loses his man. We don't have anyone on the books for that role. The best option we have is Gregory given his energy and the way he works the defenders - but then the ball forward should be one for him to run on to rather than hold up as per the classic target man - which in turn means the other strikers and midfielders being much sharper in getting up to support him. I actually think he's better at this particular job than Crouch ever was. Because the long balls forwards to Crouch were essentially lost as there was far too much space between him and the supposedly oncoming midfielders. Crouch was quite skillful on the ball, which Vokes is certainly not, but it was to no use, as he would lose the ball alone against four defenders. Under O'Neill our five midfield men are not quite so deep as they were under Pulis, so Vokes, at least, has a good chance of delivering the ball to an on rushing McClean or to Powell who knows what to do with the ball even under pressure. For sure it's a ploy that often fails, but we don't have anyone better at it. We did try Gregory, especially under Jones, but Gregory was far too much of a grafter, too busy running wide leaving him no energy to do what a striker does. Very effective in the defensive forward role that was used in the last 2-3 games - he even scored a couple of goals - but he's too limited in the box striker role. Vokes at least stays in one place and sometimes uses the ball well, especially when Powell or Campbell is near. But pretty useless in away games.
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Post by FullerMagic on Aug 14, 2020 13:55:57 GMT
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Post by FullerMagic on Aug 15, 2020 17:08:54 GMT
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Post by FullerMagic on Aug 15, 2020 17:19:11 GMT
Overall, he sounded a bit frustrated with the contributions of the youngsters.
Reading between the lines, don't think we'll be seeing Souttar much and he might be back out on loan
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 15, 2020 17:20:19 GMT
Overall, he sounded a bit frustrated with the contributions of the youngsters. Reading between the lines, don't think we'll be seeing Souttar much and he might be back out on loan Souttar was like the second best player out there. His passing was great. But he thinks Tymon is a left back. Odd Edit - just listened to it - it was like night and day watching the passing from Batth and Chester to these two today. So much better. He's strange.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Aug 15, 2020 17:32:11 GMT
Overall, he sounded a bit frustrated with the contributions of the youngsters. Reading between the lines, don't think we'll be seeing Souttar much and he might be back out on loan Souttar was like the second best player out there. His passing was great. But he thinks Tymon is a left back. Odd Edit - just listened to it - it was like night and day watching the passing from Batth and Chester to these two today. So much better. He's strange. Maybe he took issue with 2 shocking passes Souttar made in the first 20 minutes which would've cost us in the Championship. He was alright after, far from the second best player though.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 15, 2020 17:33:26 GMT
Souttar was like the second best player out there. His passing was great. But he thinks Tymon is a left back. Odd Edit - just listened to it - it was like night and day watching the passing from Batth and Chester to these two today. So much better. He's strange. Maybe he took issue with 2 shocking passes Souttar made in the first 20 minutes which would've cost us in the Championship. He was alright after, far from the second best player though. He easily was imo. I was really impressed with him, looked way better than Collins today. But heck that was the best football I've seen us play for 12 months
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Post by GeneralFaye on Aug 15, 2020 17:36:13 GMT
Maybe he took issue with 2 shocking passes Souttar made in the first 20 minutes which would've cost us in the Championship. He was alright after, far from the second best player though. He easily was imo. I was really impressed with him, looked way better than Collins today. But heck that was the best football I've seen us play for 12 months Are you sure you didn't get the 2 CBs mixed up? You mention Collins made errant passes but fail to acknowledge Souttar's which were far worse and dangerous.
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Post by lancashirelad on Aug 15, 2020 17:41:54 GMT
Another very honest assessment. The way he speaks it really is a challenge to the younger members of the squad.
Todays opponents were to me at best conference standard if not the level below. The defence were under next to no pressure and several times the final pass was poor or poor decision even for a first friendly.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 15, 2020 17:48:27 GMT
He easily was imo. I was really impressed with him, looked way better than Collins today. But heck that was the best football I've seen us play for 12 months Are you sure you didn't get the 2 CBs mixed up? You mention Collins made errant passes but fail to acknowledge Souttar's which were far worse and dangerous. No, Souttar was the right hand CB and his passing was great.
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Post by neddy on Aug 15, 2020 17:50:46 GMT
Are you sure you didn't get the 2 CBs mixed up? You mention Collins made errant passes but fail to acknowledge Souttar's which were far worse and dangerous. No, Souttar was the right hand CB and his passing was great. Bayern watch it back he nearly cost us two goals first half with errant passes. Admitted he looked more comfortable on the ball than Collins but neither were tested defensively?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 15, 2020 17:53:51 GMT
No, Souttar was the right hand CB and his passing was great. Bayern watch it back he nearly cost us two goals first half with errant passes. Admitted he looked more comfortable on the ball than Collins but neither were tested defensively? They weren't but I have doubts re Souttar and he really impressed me today.
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Post by GeneralFaye on Aug 15, 2020 18:09:09 GMT
Are you sure you didn't get the 2 CBs mixed up? You mention Collins made errant passes but fail to acknowledge Souttar's which were far worse and dangerous. No, Souttar was the right hand CB and his passing was great. You must've missed them moments then.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2020 18:26:07 GMT
Souttar looked miles off it and so did Edwards defensively. Their number 9 on the wing rag dolled him three or four times. Once again, the only one of the youngsters who looked remotely ready was Collins, and I suspect he will go out on loan.
The end of the interview was telling re. FFP. I doubt we'll be spending a penny this season unless we get some serious coin in for our players.
I could swing for our owners/CEO. Why oh why did you give Gary Rowett all of that money?
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Post by chiswickpotter on Aug 15, 2020 20:00:56 GMT
Souttar looked miles off it and so did Edwards defensively. Their number 9 on the wing rag dolled him three or four times. Once again, the only one of the youngsters who looked remotely ready was Collins, and I suspect he will go out on loan. The end of the interview was telling re. FFP. I doubt we'll be spending a penny this season unless we get some serious coin in for our players. I could swing for our owners/CEO. Why oh why did you give Gary Rowett all of that money? Yep we are clearly right up against the FFP limit. We wrote off a lot of Hughes mistakes but then let Rowett and Jones use up all the parachute money. It is their transfer fees we are now struggling with. I suspect we desperately need some transfer income but other than a few quid for Jack, who? We are trying to cover the costs of loan players but can’t see them being sold. Maybe Clucas or Campbell or ideally Ince
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Post by mrcoke on Aug 15, 2020 22:39:15 GMT
Overall, he sounded a bit frustrated with the contributions of the youngsters. Reading between the lines, don't think we'll be seeing Souttar much and he might be back out on loan I agree. MON was clearly frustrated with the lack of urgency (he used the word sharpness), but it seemed to me players were going through the motions, with lots of side to side passing, followed by launching a long ball to the wings, whereas MON expects the team to move forward quickly passing the ball. Some forwards were running off the ball, but no one was smart enough to pick them out. Afobe looked like he was making an effort to impress, but missed chances, shame his headed goal was disallowed, he deserved something for his efforts. The defenders had nothing to defend against, so did not disgrace themselves, but today I don't think anyone earned a place on the first XI team sheet. Still there is plenty of time yet.
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Post by Gary Hackett on Aug 16, 2020 0:10:47 GMT
Souttar looked miles off it and so did Edwards defensively. Their number 9 on the wing rag dolled him three or four times. Once again, the only one of the youngsters who looked remotely ready was Collins, and I suspect he will go out on loan. The end of the interview was telling re. FFP. I doubt we'll be spending a penny this season unless we get some serious coin in for our players. I could swing for our owners/CEO. Why oh why did you give Gary Rowett all of that money? You were one of most pro Rowett people on here so that's a bit rich coming from you. I didn't want him here.
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