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Post by johnnysoul60 on Oct 3, 2019 21:09:36 GMT
I don't know if it's the pressure of parachute money that has screwed Rowett and Jones , certainly Rowett saw the money and pissed it up the wall. Jones had a lot less but has ended up with far too many old Journeymen once again .
He should have stuck with Davis having signed him and then used young players around a few old heads who wanted to work for him .
Too many changes also has killed him as has the lack of a left back .
Not sure he can be blamed for Butland Edwards and Allen playing like twats though or Ince ( a complete wanker) although he could have dropped him and kept Verlinden .
We needed to build a new team and we haven't, as much deadwood as ever and for the fourth season no pace.
Not sure who sorts it out from here or if it can be .
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2019 21:51:59 GMT
I've said it all along ...
We buy these players for huge amounts of money - and they can then feed themselves!
We need to somehow capture them and then keep em hungry, with a promise of a bit of snappin in the future ...
Just keep em hungry. Chuck em a few nuts from time to time.
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Oct 3, 2019 23:15:04 GMT
Just think we have got it totally wrong since the drop , whereas Albion or Swansea seem to have better and hungry squads , at least results suggest they do.
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Post by starkiller on Oct 3, 2019 23:17:02 GMT
We have a number of players who definitely don't look 'hungry'.
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Oct 3, 2019 23:37:28 GMT
We have a number of players who definitely don't look 'hungry'. Or even interested. |
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Post by tony1234 on Oct 3, 2019 23:42:18 GMT
Agree - he certainly should have produced a good mix of younger players with 2-3 experienced heads.
But perhaps aimed to do it over 2-3 windows and not 12 players in 1. When the hell does that ever work. QPR, Villa this season, Fulham....?
Carried on with the same 4231 - the players know it - or 442 to start with. Having to change culture AND system AND staff at the same time creates chaos and confusion.
And he should also have widened his net rather than just look at Champs freebies or players that had done well against Luton. A good #2 coach with international knowledge would have been good, or at least a European scout.
Used loan players and get the odd utility player so that you focus on key positions, and not this silly 2 for every position crap which is just inefficient and wasteful.
Should have:-
Sold Allen and Butland. Persuaded N'Diaye to stay and play from day 1 or sell him too. Sells Woods. Sell McClean. Raise 20m odd for reinvestment.
Definitely got Sawyers.
Perhaps an experienced keeper (e.g. Ruddy) as the concession to older players
Got someone with a goal threat from the left with 8m. (e.g. Tom Lawrence, Ryan Kent, Murphy....)
Never bought Vokes as the new striker.
Never got rid of Pieters in haste.
Campbell, Verlinden, Edwards, Collins in the matchday 18.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Oct 3, 2019 23:52:34 GMT
Just think we have got it totally wrong since the drop , whereas Albion or Swansea seem to have better and hungry squads , at least results suggest they do. We were to impatient to get back up, we should have rebuilt with a two season stay if needed instead of shooting our load all in one go, and then as Rowett didn't work out we'd still be in a position to spend a little if needed but on the right players rather than names, no one has yet looked to build a proper squad, Jones tried but didn't do to well with it, as you say West Brom are a good example. |
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Post by cheeesfreeex on Oct 4, 2019 0:05:27 GMT
It seems so far from reality now it's theoretical, on paper but.... A massive dose of hindsight because I'd rather be represented by some of those released, loaned, deemed not ready or not up to it. On the evidence of the tail end of our Prem season, I would have been loking at building a midfield around Sorenson as a box to boxer, and maybe him and Woods as a sitting distributor, terrier could have worked. A defence with Collins and Edwards{on paper} and at one point Ryan Sweeney looked to be progressing well. Souttar, even Josh Tymon, though raw with shortcomings, at his age offers more in effort and potential than the current left flank, he was England U18, had a good game in the Cup for us, yet another one it seems little instruction/development, pretty much chucked under a bus... Jack? Gyolla, Bachmann? Verlinen as a winger or part of a front three. Campbell and N'Goy looked to have masses of potential, {N'Goy originally mentioned in dispatches as a successor to Lukaku....}. etc I can't claim much knowledge but there seemed to be a few potentials amongst the youth, the nature of it there'll be plenty of failures, but we had that Abdullalah fella who found the next, and that giant Kevin Francis type Greenidge... summat different, break the monotony of the current bland... I liked what I saw of Dom Telford, him and Campbell {on paper} had/have the complimentary.... aghhhh what's the point. TThose players with a few more seasoned chaps in a more defencive supportive {something to build from} sense etc.. with a young hungry manager, with interesting ideas but a base level of fitness and attacking ethos.... Jack
Edwards Ryan Collins Tymon
Woods
Sorenson Telford
Velinden Campbell N'Goy Or somesuch...  |
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Post by Absolution on Oct 4, 2019 0:17:14 GMT
We have a number of players who definitely don't look 'hungry'. Vokes looks too hungry, too often for my liking. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 4:40:01 GMT
Persuaded N'Diaye to stay and play from day 1 or sell him too. He cpuldn't have played Badou from day 1, as he was on holiday after the african cup, but he could and should have brought him in same time as Etebo. He can't really persuade him as he is hell bent on playing at a higher level. |
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Post by thisisouryear on Oct 4, 2019 6:18:06 GMT
Just think we have got it totally wrong since the drop , whereas Albion or Swansea seem to have better and hungry squads , at least results suggest they do. We were to impatient to get back up, we should have rebuilt with a two season stay if needed instead of shooting our load all in one go, and then as Rowett didn't work out we'd still be in a position to spend a little if needed but on the right players rather than names, no one has yet looked to build a proper squad, Jones tried but didn't do to well with it, as you say West Brom are a good example. West Brom have always been good at going up and down. They never stay there once they are up so it's not all that good. The Swansea and Southampton models are probably more successful. If we do lose Jones i wish we would go for a decent Dutch manager and try to build a model like Ajax's. We don't seem to get enough out of our youth system despite all the effort thats gone into it, and it would be nice to be able to get it firing and get some quality dynamic players out of it. We always go British and its a system pretty much like the England team in respect that we have no real direction or way of playing. Jones offered something different and it might still work but you would think he is as good as gone now. Is our club too British? We have seemed for years out dated as a football club. Jones seems to be quite dynamic as a manager but maybe everything else behind the scenes needs a good revamp. I don't know what personnel Jones bought with him but we still seem a bit too British. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 6:36:44 GMT
For some reason we always use “it’s not the right time” to play the kids,
We are going for promotion, we are fighting relegation , we are trying to stabilise, so we rely on experienced players.
But the experienced players let us down continually and still keep their place.
Younger players don’t seem to get the same chances. Verlinden was a prime example, he played got man of the match then was dropped. Sorenson last year, played well, not to be seen again.
We need to give the younger guys the same chances as the failed experienced players get.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 6:41:09 GMT
We need a mix of young an seasoned
Davies
Edwards Batth Collins NEW
Badou Etebo
Ince Duffy Verlinden
Campbell
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Post by cousindupree on Oct 4, 2019 6:55:28 GMT
Based on his dumb ass recruiting, Jones would have recruited 12 Jordan Cousins. After all his is young and a super athlete.
A completely young hungry team won't get you promoted from the champs. The obsession with youth is bizarre, young players go off the rails and their form is erratic.
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Post by luke2u on Oct 4, 2019 7:43:14 GMT
One thing is sure, with our position now, we won't attract young talent in the same way as we did as a PL club. Not that we have produced much in our academy when it comes to 1st team players, but I fear it will get even worse now.
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Post by hyaduck on Oct 4, 2019 7:44:00 GMT
We should of looked in the foreign market again instead of the common market
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Post by Goonie on Oct 4, 2019 8:09:28 GMT
I don't know if it's the pressure of parachute money that has screwed Rowett and Jones , certainly Rowett saw the money and pissed it up the wall. Jones had a lot less but has ended up with far too many old Journeymen once again . He should have stuck with Davis having signed him and then used young players around a few old heads who wanted to work for him . Too many changes also has killed him as has the lack of a left back . Not sure he can be blamed for Butland Edwards and Allen playing like twats though or Ince ( a complete wanker) although he could have dropped him and kept Verlinden . We needed to build a new team and we haven't, as much deadwood as ever and for the fourth season no pace. Not sure who sorts it out from here or if it can be . Butland's loss of form may well coincide with his failure to get a move to a 'big' club. Soon as his head went he should have been dropped but he was played perhaps to keep him in the shop window We missed out on some fantastic, low budget players like Sawyers and ended up with what we have Jones is similar to Hughes in having an unbalanced squad. His failure to secure a DM and a LWB is part of his downfall, especially to furnish his beloved diamond, despite having 2 windows to do so. His and Rowett's shopping has been like someone picking good players but with no thought to whether they can actually 'fit' the system Only Lambert, bizarrely, attempted to buy players we needed, wasn't fully backed and the rest is history Both Rowett and Jones seem inept at dealing with big budgets in the transfer market. Jones has brought in 12 players so can't complain they're not his |
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Post by chigstoke on Oct 4, 2019 8:58:42 GMT
I don't know if it's the pressure of parachute money that has screwed Rowett and Jones , certainly Rowett saw the money and pissed it up the wall. Jones had a lot less but has ended up with far too many old Journeymen once again . He should have stuck with Davis having signed him and then used young players around a few old heads who wanted to work for him . Too many changes also has killed him as has the lack of a left back . Not sure he can be blamed for Butland Edwards and Allen playing like twats though or Ince ( a complete wanker) although he could have dropped him and kept Verlinden . We needed to build a new team and we haven't, as much deadwood as ever and for the fourth season no pace. Not sure who sorts it out from here or if it can be . Butland's loss of form may well coincide with his failure to get a move to a 'big' club. Soon as his head went he should have been dropped but he was played perhaps to keep him in the shop window We missed out on some fantastic, low budget players like Sawyers and ended up with what we have Jones is similar to Hughes in having an unbalanced squad. His failure to secure a DM and a LWB is part of his downfall, especially to furnish his beloved diamond, despite having 2 windows to do so. His and Rowett's shopping has been like someone picking good players but with no thought to whether they can actually 'fit' the system Only Lambert, bizarrely, attempted to buy players we needed, wasn't fully backed and the rest is history Both Rowett and Jones seem inept at dealing with big budgets in the transfer market. Jones has brought in 12 players so can't complain they're not his On the point of Lambert, Bauer was done as a Hughes signing anyway (Hughes had news he was joining on the night he was sacked at Coventry), and Badou was more a case of Lambert giving the go-ahead, another Hughes one I think.
I don't doubt he'd have tried to recruit correctly though. And I'm sure I heard he was interested in bringing Gayle in before he eventually got the chop for Rowett.
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Post by Goonie on Oct 4, 2019 9:03:57 GMT
Butland's loss of form may well coincide with his failure to get a move to a 'big' club. Soon as his head went he should have been dropped but he was played perhaps to keep him in the shop window We missed out on some fantastic, low budget players like Sawyers and ended up with what we have Jones is similar to Hughes in having an unbalanced squad. His failure to secure a DM and a LWB is part of his downfall, especially to furnish his beloved diamond, despite having 2 windows to do so. His and Rowett's shopping has been like someone picking good players but with no thought to whether they can actually 'fit' the system Only Lambert, bizarrely, attempted to buy players we needed, wasn't fully backed and the rest is history Both Rowett and Jones seem inept at dealing with big budgets in the transfer market. Jones has brought in 12 players so can't complain they're not his On the point of Lambert, Bauer was done as a Hughes signing anyway (Hughes had news he was joining on the night he was sacked at Coventry), and Badou was more a case of Lambert giving the go-ahead, another Hughes one I think.
I don't doubt he'd have tried to recruit correctly though. And I'm sure I heard he was interested in bringing Gayle in before he eventually got the chop for Rowett.
That settles it then - Hughes IN 😁👍😎 |
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Post by chigstoke on Oct 4, 2019 9:14:18 GMT
On the point of Lambert, Bauer was done as a Hughes signing anyway (Hughes had news he was joining on the night he was sacked at Coventry), and Badou was more a case of Lambert giving the go-ahead, another Hughes one I think.
I don't doubt he'd have tried to recruit correctly though. And I'm sure I heard he was interested in bringing Gayle in before he eventually got the chop for Rowett.
That settles it then - Hughes IN 😁👍😎 To be fair, if Hughes was hell bent on playing Wing Backs then Bauer would have been a good player to have in that system. More suited than Edwards and Diouf.
Not sure if he'd have loaned Stafy, like Lambert did.
Really he should have just learnt the error of his ways and played the usual 4231. Could have had a cracking team really if he'd maintained a bit of common sense.
Butland Bauer - Shawcross - BMI - Pieters Badou - Adam Shaqiri - Jese - Choupo Diouf (for the sake of having someone faster than Crouch up front)
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Post by Goonie on Oct 4, 2019 9:19:59 GMT
That settles it then - Hughes IN 😁👍😎 To be fair, if Hughes was hell bent on playing Wing Backs then Bauer would have been a good player to have in that system. More suited than Edwards and Diouf.
Not sure if he'd have loaned Stafy, like Lambert did.
Really he should have just learnt the error of his ways and played the usual 4231. Could have had a cracking team really if he'd maintained a bit of common sense.
Butland Bauer - Shawcross - BMI - Pieters Badou - Adam Shaqiri - Jese - Choupo Diouf (for the sake of having someone faster than Crouch up front)
Well said I fear I'll never see a team of that quality again in my lifetime - I'm 52 you see 😱🤯 |
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Post by chigstoke on Oct 4, 2019 9:26:38 GMT
To be fair, if Hughes was hell bent on playing Wing Backs then Bauer would have been a good player to have in that system. More suited than Edwards and Diouf.
Not sure if he'd have loaned Stafy, like Lambert did.
Really he should have just learnt the error of his ways and played the usual 4231. Could have had a cracking team really if he'd maintained a bit of common sense.
Butland Bauer - Shawcross - BMI - Pieters Badou - Adam Shaqiri - Jese - Choupo Diouf (for the sake of having someone faster than Crouch up front)
Well said I fear I'll never see a team of that quality again in my lifetime - I'm 52 you see 😱🤯 Mate I'm 23 and at the rate the team is going I'm starting to wonder the same thing myself!
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Oct 4, 2019 10:01:54 GMT
We should have completely tried to re-shape the squad when we got relegated into one that had potential to grow, instead we spunked 50 million on a few players which completely hamstrung us when it went pear shaped. Not only this, we signed up some existing players to Premier League contracts and money in the arrogant belief we'd go up with 130 points. An outdated strategy based on the belief that money spent is the be all and end all, rather than sitting down and making and intelligent plan. Couple with feeding the fans "promotion is the aim, top 6 minimum" rhetoric it was no surprise that the fans were angry.
The inadequacies of our scouting have been laid bare this year under Jones.
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Post by tony1234 on Oct 4, 2019 13:56:37 GMT
Persuaded N'Diaye to stay and play from day 1 or sell him too. He cpuldn't have played Badou from day 1, as he was on holiday after the african cup, but he could and should have brought him in same time as Etebo. He can't really persuade him as he is hell bent on playing at a higher level. That probably answers the question on what to have done with him then. Much as he now looks one of our better players, we/he should have moved on. Replacing one of our few decent ones seems such an ordeal when we can't scout properly. |
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Post by jonparkinsgut on Oct 4, 2019 14:11:24 GMT
We have a number of players who definitely don't look 'hungry'. How many saw Butland at the interval on Tuesday? completely disinterested, awful body language, some professional eh? Sure I saw one fan having words with him, looked like he was telling Jack to sort himself out! |
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 4, 2019 14:36:42 GMT
Yes he should of built a team with more youngsters with a hunger to progress
But he hasn’t helped himself by playing the ones he has
Edwards shouldn’t wear a stoke shirt again until he grasps the basics of defending
And Campbell shouldn’t wear the shirt again until he can give 90 minutes of effort
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Post by Davef on Oct 4, 2019 15:35:19 GMT
We were to impatient to get back up, we should have rebuilt with a two season stay if needed instead of shooting our load all in one go, and then as Rowett didn't work out we'd still be in a position to spend a little if needed but on the right players rather than names, no one has yet looked to build a proper squad, Jones tried but didn't do to well with it, as you say West Brom are a good example. West Brom have always been good at going up and down. They never stay there once they are up so it's not all that good. The Swansea and Southampton models are probably more successful. West Brom spent 8 years in the Premier League before they were relegated. Swansea spent 7 and Southampton are currently into their 8th. They have been relegated from the Premier League four times (meaning obviously that they they've been promoted to it three times). On each previous occasion it's taken them no longer than two years to return. And you wouldn't bet against them repeating that feat this season. What's more, since they were first promoted in 2002 their average league attendance has never fallen below 20,000. And when they've been relegated they've never finished lower than 4th in the league. West Brom are a far more stable and much better run club than we are. And unlike Southampton, they've never been into administration. |
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Post by Championship Potter on Oct 4, 2019 15:43:15 GMT
McClean, Vokes and Clucas were horrible signings. Players that were never ever that good signed for millions just as their value and ability was about to drop sharply. Even worse we signed them from clubs where they were surplus to requirements and we could have probably bought on a lower fee or ideally just loaned them.
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Post by tosh on Oct 4, 2019 15:59:17 GMT
West Brom have always been good at going up and down. They never stay there once they are up so it's not all that good. The Swansea and Southampton models are probably more successful. West Brom spent 8 years in the Premier League before they were relegated. Swansea spent 7 and Southampton are currently into their 8th. They have been relegated from the Premier League four times (meaning obviously that they they've been promoted to it three times). On each previous occasion it's taken them no longer than two years to return. And you wouldn't bet against them repeating that feat this season. What's more, since they were first promoted in 2002 their average league attendance has never fallen below 20,000. And when they've been relegated they've never finished lower than 4th in the league. West Brom are a far more stable and much better run club than we are. And unlike Southampton, they've never been into administration. A good point well made! That’s an impressive record. A well run club that always seems to be able to challenge for promotion again straight after any relegation, is pretty exciting for the fans. It certainly beats charging down the leagues! |
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Post by butlerstbob on Oct 4, 2019 16:00:28 GMT
I don't know if it's the pressure of parachute money that has screwed Rowett and Jones , certainly Rowett saw the money and pissed it up the wall. Jones had a lot less but has ended up with far too many old Journeymen once again . He should have stuck with Davis having signed him and then used young players around a few old heads who wanted to work for him . Too many changes also has killed him as has the lack of a left back . Not sure he can be blamed for Butland Edwards and Allen playing like twats though or Ince ( a complete wanker) although he could have dropped him and kept Verlinden . We needed to build a new team and we haven't, as much deadwood as ever and for the fourth season no pace. Not sure who sorts it out from here or if it can be . Maybe someone with a bit more time and effort can find the info from when he started but I am sure when we appointed Jones he actually said he would build a young hungry team, a team with pace, desire, hunger and a team we would be proud of? Or did I dream that?? .... Any road it's the total opposite to what he has done! As already said journeymen that are in it for one last payday, money grabbers with very little interest left in football but just enough to cream off 20-30 grand a week to get by!!! |
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