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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 17, 2020 14:30:00 GMT
Who is suggesting that? You are jumping to solutions. No easy answers and I certainly have not got a solution. But the amount of humans on the planet and their impact is clearly a large part of the problem Particularly the exponential growth in the last 2 centuries. The impact is global in terms of the " climate emergency" but it is also local. Every single house that is built impacts on the local wildlife ecology....the micro stuff counts. We have now realised that the use of nitrogen, pesticides etc to sustain growth has impacted upon the rivers, ecology and human health.. the bee population. Inner cities are polluted and overcrowded impacting upon the QUALITY of life...its is not just sustainability....and much if the impact is felt in the developing world....I'm beginning to feel.like Rodney off OFAH. Most of that IS to do with the amount of people on the planet....not the solution but it is a major part of the problem Less people/ less impact. Population matters does outline strategies. I agree, but we will expand, no matter what. Using strategies to live more sustainably is a more realistic and helpful goal in my opinion. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just disagreeing with your assertion that human population growth isn't a ( major) factor in the sustainability issues facing Earth.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2020 14:50:45 GMT
I agree, but we will expand, no matter what. Using strategies to live more sustainably is a more realistic and helpful goal in my opinion. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just disagreeing with your assertion that human population growth isn't a ( major) factor in the sustainability issues facing Earth. I think it's more that it's not the main issue. there's a lot of room left for more people if we lived within our means and spread resources properly.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 17, 2020 14:55:00 GMT
I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just disagreeing with your assertion that human population growth isn't a ( major) factor in the sustainability issues facing Earth. I think it's more that it's not the main issue. there's a lot of room left for more people if we lived within our means and spread resources properly. Realistically I don't agree." Speeading resources" implies that it is all about human comfortable survival. Sustainability of the planet is a much, much wider issue. I'll leave it there... populationmatters.org/sites/default/files/styles/full_width_image/public/Population%20and%20extinctions%20-%20no%20logo_0.png?itok=ZPyB2IbXSir David: “All of our environmental problems become easier to solve with fewer people, and harder – and ultimately impossible – to solve with ever more people.”
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Post by foster on Feb 17, 2020 14:58:44 GMT
Sustainability for 7 billion people is more easily achieved than for 9+ billion people. The growing population and increased demand for resources is clearly an issue. It is but that just seems like an excuse for us to not commit to the long term change we will need to commit to anyway eventually. It's not an excuse because it's the truth. If you're realistic then you should accept that you'll never get 7 billion people on board with sustainability in the amount of time we have left to get us out of this sorry mess. There's no chance the entire global population will voluntarily agree to change their living habits and suddenly embrace their inner eco-warrior. If you can stop or better yet, reverse the population growth whilst gradually enforcing changes to the way people live then that's probably about as good as it'll get.
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Post by neworleanstokie on Feb 17, 2020 15:02:50 GMT
I just noticed NY will ban single use plastic bags as of March 1st. While I'm all in favor of being made to pay a small fee to discourage abuse what annoys me is this legislation is enacted by people living in large houses, with central ACs., driving gas guzzling SUVs etc. Meanwhile muggins here lives in a small apartment, with 2 small AC's, does not own a car and takes public transit... So while Mr and Mrs smug SUV driver can keep there supermarket bags in their SUV I'm supposed to carry one around just on the off chance I need to buy something to carry home (and walk up - not elevator up - 5 flights)?
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Post by foster on Feb 17, 2020 15:04:22 GMT
I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just disagreeing with your assertion that human population growth isn't a ( major) factor in the sustainability issues facing Earth. I think it's more that it's not the main issue. there's a lot of room left for more people if we lived within our means and spread resources properly. The two are not inseparable on the issue of climate change, and it isn't a case of one or the other. Using your logic wouldn't it then be possible to simply kill off everyone and restrict the global population to 1 million people. That way they can live as unsustainably as they like and the planet would easily manage. As for room, I think we've taken up more than enough. Aside from the climate we should be trying to keep as many other species alive as possible.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 17, 2020 15:09:53 GMT
It is but that just seems like an excuse for us to not commit to the long term change we will need to commit to anyway eventually. It's not an excuse because it's the truth. If you're realistic then you should accept that you'll never get 7 billion people on board with sustainability in the amount of time we have left to get us out of this sorry mess. There's no chance the entire global population will voluntarily agree to change their living habits and suddenly embrace their inner eco-warrior. If you can stop or better yet, reverse the population growth whilst gradually enforcing changes to the way people live then that's probably about as good as it'll get. I'd agree with most of that Mr Foster...not sure how " enforce" would go down This is what Population Matters says that we should do...the rest of the link is worth reading in my opinion. Empower women worldwide with the freedom to choose their family size— through education, social change, and economic development. Give people the help they need to lift themselves out of poverty. Ensure everyone can access and use modern family planning. Challenge beliefs and social norms which encourage large families and oppose contraception. Encourage people to have smaller families wherever they have the choice to. Welcome to the Anthropocene | Population Matters | Every Choice Counts | Sustainable World Population populationmatters.org/campaigns/anthropocene
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2020 15:10:58 GMT
It is but that just seems like an excuse for us to not commit to the long term change we will need to commit to anyway eventually. It's not an excuse because it's the truth. If you're realistic then you should accept that you'll never get 7 billion people on board with sustainability in the amount of time we have left to get us out of this sorry mess. There's no chance the entire global population will voluntarily agree to change their living habits and suddenly embrace their inner eco-warrior. If you can stop or better yet, reverse the population growth whilst gradually enforcing changes to the way people live then that's probably about as good as it'll get. It isn't about realism though, because you can't kill or decrease the population enough in the time we have left. It has to become involuntary, unfortunately.
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Post by foster on Feb 17, 2020 15:21:58 GMT
It's not an excuse because it's the truth. If you're realistic then you should accept that you'll never get 7 billion people on board with sustainability in the amount of time we have left to get us out of this sorry mess. There's no chance the entire global population will voluntarily agree to change their living habits and suddenly embrace their inner eco-warrior. If you can stop or better yet, reverse the population growth whilst gradually enforcing changes to the way people live then that's probably about as good as it'll get. It isn't about realism though, because you can't kill or decrease the population enough in the time we have left. It has to become involuntary, unfortunately. People who don't care (or care enough) about climate change aren't going to vote for anyone who wants to force changes on them that they perceive will make their lives more difficult. That's the only reason why I think more hasn't already been done. People in the main just don't care enough. The vast majority of people agree on climate change but I don't see the Tories or Labour promising a change that will negatively impact their voters. I also don't see many gains for the green party. I kind of agree with your revolution point earlier though. I think that as the frequency of natural disasters and severe weather events increase, that more and more people will be getting on board with accepting that change is not an option.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2020 15:26:13 GMT
It isn't about realism though, because you can't kill or decrease the population enough in the time we have left. It has to become involuntary, unfortunately. People who don't care (or care enough) about climate change aren't going to vote for anyone who wants to force changes on them that they perceive will make their lives more difficult. That's the only reason why I think more hasn't already been done. People in the main just don't care enough. The vast majority of people agree on climate change but I don't see the Tories or Labour promising a change that will negatively impact their voters. I also don't see many gains for the green party. I kind of agree with your revolution point earlier though. I think that as the frequency of natural disasters and severe weather events increase, that more and more people will be getting on board with accepting that change is not an option. Yeah it's a shame that we're generally quite short-sighted as a species. Hopefully that revolution comes sooner rather than later.
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Post by felonious on Feb 17, 2020 15:27:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2020 15:29:42 GMT
These people are scum and should be jailed for digging up a bit of grass? I think if we come down harder on these protesters than we do on the people and companies causing this crisis then we have got society very wrong.
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Post by dutchstokie on Feb 17, 2020 15:46:37 GMT
Radical change Will result in short term pain for a lot of people Those people who are suffering pain will go to the ballot box and cast there vote Mostly according to there pain No government who wishes to get elected again is ever going to introduce radical Change Anyone who wants, radical and fundamental climate change strategies had best figure out how to achieve a dictatorship You are very much correct. If a govt banned petrol/diesel cars and properly funded rail and bus services, they would be voted out immediately by another party who claimed that petrol and diesel cars don't affect the environment, because that's what we'd rather believe. That said, I think there will be a large scale revolution, one way or another, in the next 100 years. A large scale revolution in the next 100 years??? Fuck me, give yourself some leaway why dont you ! In 100 years none of us will be here anyway and these whinging do-gooders who should be at work instead of 'rebelling' wont be here either….. 'rebelling'....my sphincter 'rebels' harder than they do !! I suppose it will be there sons son - Marley Tyrone Smythe-Montague who will be picking up the baton then will it? Fuckin parasites the lot of em Semi-rant over....I'll go lightly today cos Im in a very good mood !
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2020 15:49:06 GMT
You are very much correct. If a govt banned petrol/diesel cars and properly funded rail and bus services, they would be voted out immediately by another party who claimed that petrol and diesel cars don't affect the environment, because that's what we'd rather believe. That said, I think there will be a large scale revolution, one way or another, in the next 100 years. A large scale revolution in the next 100 years??? Fuck me, give yourself some leaway why dont you ! In 100 years none of us will be here anyway and these whinging do-gooders who should be at work instead of 'rebelling' wont be here either….. 'rebelling'....my sphincter 'rebels' harder than they do !! I suppose it will be there sons son - Marley Tyrone Smythe-Montague who will be picking up the baton then will it? Fuckin parasites the lot of em Semi-rant over....I'll go lightly today cos Im in a very good mood ! It'll be everyone's sons and daughters, and there are already major effects in play now, see the increase in extreme weather. This isn't a rich person's issue and I don't know why people are pretending that all ER protesters are rich/middle-class/posh. It's bollocks. We're all fucked by this, and to be honest the richer you are the less it will affect you, hence why big corps aren't making changes.
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Post by zerps on Feb 17, 2020 15:59:23 GMT
A large scale revolution in the next 100 years??? Fuck me, give yourself some leaway why dont you ! In 100 years none of us will be here anyway and these whinging do-gooders who should be at work instead of 'rebelling' wont be here either….. 'rebelling'....my sphincter 'rebels' harder than they do !! I suppose it will be there sons son - Marley Tyrone Smythe-Montague who will be picking up the baton then will it? Fuckin parasites the lot of em Semi-rant over....I'll go lightly today cos Im in a very good mood ! It'll be everyone's sons and daughters, and there are already major effects in play now, see the increase in extreme weather. This isn't a rich person's issue and I don't know why people are pretending that all ER protesters are rich/middle-class/posh. It's bollocks. We're all fucked by this, and to be honest the richer you are the less it will affect you, hence why big corps aren't making changes. We’re all someone’s daughter.........
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 17, 2020 16:06:50 GMT
I thought these folk were against the destruction of green spaces.
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Post by felonious on Feb 17, 2020 16:36:09 GMT
These people are scum and should be jailed for digging up a bit of grass? I think if we come down harder on these protesters than we do on the people and companies causing this crisis then we have got society very wrong. There are so many ways than can protest but we're looking at common vandals. Scum. It isn't just a piece of grass it's a heritage site but they don't really give a shit do they? You should be worried they're draining every bit of sympathy out of the cause. Thick, the lot of them.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 17, 2020 16:49:05 GMT
These people are scum and should be jailed for digging up a bit of grass? I think if we come down harder on these protesters than we do on the people and companies causing this crisis then we have got society very wrong. There are so many ways than can protest but we're looking at common vandals. Scum. It isn't just a piece of grass it's a heritage site but they don't really give a shit do they? You should be worried they're draining every bit of sympathy out of the cause. Thick, the lot of them. That's was my point a few posts back Craig. Obviously a decision has been made high up in the Police on how to Police XR in Cambridge. I'm sure that the strategy is based upon a political decision. On the road closures it could seem that the Police are assisting XR in their protest. Part of the strategy of XR IS to get arrested.... On the University Lawn I guess that the authorities don't want to be seen to disagree with the " cause" so haven't actually made a complaint.....following through with the logic of this it seems to me that if enough( does the number matter...just " one"?) people have a concern they can cause disruption/ criminal damage/ obstruction...and the authorities are saying " that's ok then" How to win friends and influence people 🙄.......( "we're not trying to do that"!)
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Post by bathstoke on Feb 17, 2020 17:03:06 GMT
There are so many ways than can protest but we're looking at common vandals. Scum. It isn't just a piece of grass it's a heritage site but they don't really give a shit do they? You should be worried they're draining every bit of sympathy out of the cause. Thick, the lot of them. That's was my point a few posts back Craig. Obviously a decision has been made high up in the Police on how to Police XR in Cambridge. I'm sure that the strategy is based upon a political decision. On the road closures it could seem that the Police are assisting XR in their protest. Part of the strategy of XR IS to get arrested.... On the University Lawn I guess that the authorities don't want to be seen to disagree with the " cause" so haven't actually made a complaint.....following through with the logic of this it seems to me that if enough( does the number matter...just " one"?) people have a concern they can cause disruption/ criminal damage/ obstruction...and the authorities are saying " that's ok then" How to win friends and influence people 🙄.......( "we're not trying to do that"!) Looks like a bad case of moles
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 17, 2020 17:08:46 GMT
XR's own explanation
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 17, 2020 17:08:54 GMT
It's not an excuse because it's the truth. If you're realistic then you should accept that you'll never get 7 billion people on board with sustainability in the amount of time we have left to get us out of this sorry mess. There's no chance the entire global population will voluntarily agree to change their living habits and suddenly embrace their inner eco-warrior. If you can stop or better yet, reverse the population growth whilst gradually enforcing changes to the way people live then that's probably about as good as it'll get. I'd agree with most of that Mr Foster...not sure how " enforce" would go down This is what Population Matters says that we should do...the rest of the link is worth reading in my opinion. Empower women worldwide with the freedom to choose their family size— through education, social change, and economic development. Give people the help they need to lift themselves out of poverty. Ensure everyone can access and use modern family planning. Challenge beliefs and social norms which encourage large families and oppose contraception. Encourage people to have smaller families wherever they have the choice to. Welcome to the Anthropocene | Population Matters | Every Choice Counts | Sustainable World Population populationmatters.org/campaigns/anthropocene Population is not increasing because there are too many births - the reality is birth rates have fallen substantially in the past 50 years. Population is increasing because child mortality has been reduced and people live longer. Tough to know what to do with that reality.
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Post by Northy on Feb 17, 2020 17:18:09 GMT
Not really zerps, population in developed countries is falling, hence the push for immigration. We need to look at other ways of measuring happiness apart from GDP growth, it's this that drives the energy use, car use, pollutants etc. up, also the idle lot who won't make minor changes. Less people means less cars, less need for energy and less pollutants though. It's just one of many reasons why things are getting worse. Needs to a global consensus on how to change the way companies operate and how we live, but i don't see that happening while the US and China are trying to monopolise everything. I agree on your GDP point. The solution to everything can't simply be throwing more money at it. That seems to be the common excuse for everything that's shit now, even though so much is needlessly wasted or lost (benefit fraud for example). It needs to be more tightly managed and put to better use. Not really, I said developed countries, the immigrants who go in will then get cars and the 3rd world countries are developing using fossil fuel technologies to achieve it and will increase their wealth and then take cars etc. Agree with other points
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Post by vokeswagen on Feb 17, 2020 17:19:42 GMT
I agree there are worse offenders but Christ, if you can't lead by example what can you do?! Is that not what makes Britain great?! We have to do everything we can and to hell with what others are doing (or not doing) "Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little." Good quote. We may all be going to hell in a handcart but I for one am doing what I can to make the handcart as sustainable as possible
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Post by Northy on Feb 17, 2020 17:20:11 GMT
Not really zerps, population in developed countries is falling, hence the push for immigration. We need to look at other ways of measuring happiness apart from GDP growth, it's this that drives the energy use, car use, pollutants etc. up, also the idle lot who won't make minor changes. Is there really a push for immigration though? Or is immigration continuing simply because we have laws and rules that were relevant before but may not be so today? With the number of unemployed we have and the number of jobs available I don't think immigration is really necessary. It's just an excuse to get cheap labour, but labour shouldn't be so cheap that the normal British person turns their nose up at it. Bringing in immigrants is just a quick fix. In the long term they will get old and need pensions so then we just bring in more immigrants to work and cover those additional costs. Not to mention the influx of family members and population growth due to it. I think we're getting to the point where we (and other nations) have to just shut up shop and put the endless craving for growth on pause. Fuck all the shit that's going on elsewhere and focus on improving the standard of living at home with the people and resources we have available. Many countries are talking about how to fill the gap of youth with an aged population, de-growth would be good if it can be achieved
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Post by Northy on Feb 17, 2020 17:21:01 GMT
Not really zerps, population in developed countries is falling, hence the push for immigration. We need to look at other ways of measuring happiness apart from GDP growth, it's this that drives the energy use, car use, pollutants etc. up, also the idle lot who won't make minor changes. At what stage are we going to be obliterated by a nuclear war though? People should worry about that first. We won't be, too much at stake for both sides.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 17, 2020 17:24:51 GMT
I'd agree with most of that Mr Foster...not sure how " enforce" would go down This is what Population Matters says that we should do...the rest of the link is worth reading in my opinion. Empower women worldwide with the freedom to choose their family size— through education, social change, and economic development. Give people the help they need to lift themselves out of poverty. Ensure everyone can access and use modern family planning. Challenge beliefs and social norms which encourage large families and oppose contraception. Encourage people to have smaller families wherever they have the choice to. Welcome to the Anthropocene | Population Matters | Every Choice Counts | Sustainable World Population populationmatters.org/campaigns/anthropocene Population is not increasing because there are too many births - the reality is birth rates have fallen substantially in the past 50 years. Population is increasing because child mortality has been reduced and people live longer. Tough to know what to do with that reality. I think that Population matters are saying that people in developing countries are still having too many births....the reasons may be lack of development( they are not blaming them and they recognise at the moment they are not the major consumers)....as I understand it. Indeed in more developed countries the birthrate has decreased and longevity increased....the victim of our own success. ............ I think...I don't claim to know...nor know the solutions.....I just think that there are too many people on the planet for it to be sustainable...perhaps an obvious, useless piece of information.....but it might be the elephant in the room
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Post by vokeswagen on Feb 17, 2020 17:27:51 GMT
Okay, so as someone who is right wing. Tell me which part of this you disagree with. 1 - humans are causing a climate catastrophe, already at the level of a mass extinction event. 2 - companies have contributed the vast majority of CO 2 emissions since 1850. 3 - companies have spent the majority of the second half of the 20th century trying to cover up and dispute evidence that they are causing and contributing to this. 4 - If we get warming over 3 oC, there will be irreconcilable crises that we will not be able to stop or fix. 5 - companies and governments must reduce their CO 2 outputs among other emissions in order to slow warming to retrievable levels. 6 - companies and governments will not do this unless forced to, as the initial cost is large. 7 - The initial cost is bollocks compared to the cost if we do nothing, so govts and companies must be forced to change their ways. Tell me each bullet point that you disagree with and why. I cannot see how anyone on the right or left can disagree with any part of that. Socialist or not. Even if you think the science is settled (it's not, it's a Chicken Little scenario), any action that our tiny little spit of land takes is undone thousands of times over by China, the USA, India, and developing African countries. We are powerless in the scheme of things by the admission of people who spout this bollocks. It's bailing out the basement while there are holes in the roof. All that we are accomplishing is to pay a fucking fortune to lower the quality of our lives. Climate Change (TM) is exaggerated, hyperbolic claptrap. Conning people into falling for this nonsense is an extremely lucrative and profitable business. It started with the Greens saying "Vote for us and we'll save the world", and now all the bastards are at it. It's an excuse to tax people to fuck. It's an excuse for companies to persuade you to unnecessarily upgrade possessions and make perfectly good items obsolete. It's a way of conning people to pay more money for shitter stuff. Sadly, too many people have already fallen for it and they make pariahs of people who stand up against the lies. Even if it's true, there's fuck all the UK can do about it. Christ on a fucking bike fella, you'll be telling us the earth is flat next And you really need to stop looking at stuff through a tax prism. This isn't some grand conspiracy to rob you. I think it was a native American chap who pointed out that you can't eat money. This is far far bigger than tax. We either work (and pay) together and treat the world better or it's apocalypse. Fairly simple.
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Post by zerps on Feb 17, 2020 17:30:13 GMT
At what stage are we going to be obliterated by a nuclear war though? People should worry about that first. We won't be, too much at stake for both sides. Plenty of whacko nut jobs with red buttons, currently 😁
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Post by felonious on Feb 17, 2020 17:48:15 GMT
There are so many ways than can protest but we're looking at common vandals. Scum. It isn't just a piece of grass it's a heritage site but they don't really give a shit do they? You should be worried they're draining every bit of sympathy out of the cause. Thick, the lot of them. That's was my point a few posts back Craig. Obviously a decision has been made high up in the Police on how to Police XR in Cambridge. I'm sure that the strategy is based upon a political decision. On the road closures it could seem that the Police are assisting XR in their protest. Part of the strategy of XR IS to get arrested.... On the University Lawn I guess that the authorities don't want to be seen to disagree with the " cause" so haven't actually made a complaint.....following through with the logic of this it seems to me that if enough( does the number matter...just " one"?) people have a concern they can cause disruption/ criminal damage/ obstruction...and the authorities are saying " that's ok then" How to win friends and influence people 🙄.......( "we're not trying to do that"!) With you all the way on this one. Geoff
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2020 17:58:30 GMT
These people are scum and should be jailed for digging up a bit of grass? I think if we come down harder on these protesters than we do on the people and companies causing this crisis then we have got society very wrong. There are so many ways than can protest but we're looking at common vandals. Scum. It isn't just a piece of grass it's a heritage site but they don't really give a shit do they? You should be worried they're draining every bit of sympathy out of the cause. Thick, the lot of them. It's a patch of grass. People are trying their best to dislike ER over anything.
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