|
Post by bathstoke on Sept 22, 2019 7:14:32 GMT
What do you do these days Harry... I now live in a grammar school area , I'm hoping we get them though the 11 + . The local state school in my catchment is one of worst performers in the country . How about yours ? I didn’t mean what school your youngest go to. I meant what do you do for work. You’re not still on the knives surely🔪
|
|
|
Post by M on Sept 22, 2019 7:33:50 GMT
I think I support it. I'm not certain though.
My boy is 12 months away from me needing to make a decision. I'm far from wealthy but I only have one child and I could stretch to make it happen and send him private. I don't want to though in one respect because I fundamentally disagree with it.
State schools though are falling apart. I've got quite a few friends who teach at different age grades of state schools and from what they say, the Panorama episode the other week which was pretty damning is just the tip of the iceberg and it's all funding based. I was also on a safeguarding course recently and sat next to a local headteacher all day and he's said the same. The problem with the lack of funding is that teachers just don't get the quality of time with the kids and they have to focus on targets instead of the kids needs. They're teaching our kids to pass exams and that's about it because the don't have the bandwidth to help and develop them as much as they can.
Private schools yeah they have all the facilities but the reason their kids excel is because not only do the teachers have the time to spend with them which is huge but then the sayings that are true like 'its not what you know, its who you know' etc because invariably the kids from those schools will be children of business owners, barristers etc who can leverage who they know. Also, your kids knowing those kids will create more opportunities for them too.
On one hand I want the best for my kid and on the other I want the best for all kids. If we are ever going to achieve the best for all kids then I see removing the private schools would be more helpful than damaging because I think overnight we would see the funding of state schools drastically change...
|
|
|
Post by felonious on Sept 22, 2019 8:09:18 GMT
I don't think anyone can criticise Lilfraise's parents he's an extremely polite young man. He does t get that from his dad He's calmed down hugely and is nowhere near as argumentative as he used to be.....there's hope for Lilfraise yet
|
|
|
Post by musik on Sept 22, 2019 8:27:21 GMT
teaching in the state sector is not good for mental health. Why? In Sweden 95-99% of all schools are state schools. When I grew up in 70ies we didn't have the so called "Free schools" (meaning "free" from the state), as we have nowadays. The SocialDemocrats were ruling this country then and decided the teaching plans. I was obviously in a sort of school where all or almost all the teachers were communists. Their solution to knowledge was, if we skip grades in schools in society noone has to feel miserable, like sweeping the lack of knowledge under the carpet ... so it can't be seen before it's too late. The results in our schools run by the state decreased. Then the SocialDemocrats lost their power to the Conservatives and Liberals for a period and grades at school were re-installed. Then after a few turns they lost and we got the SocialDemocrats again. They had to fall for pressure, and agreed on some free schools, if they in some way were controlled by the state. Then we've had all the waves of immigrants the last decade, asking to start free schools. But above all, many of them are not able to read at all, not even their native language - so we're falling behind again, at international measures. It makes you wonder, what are the politicians afraid of?
|
|
|
Post by bathstoke on Sept 22, 2019 8:57:57 GMT
I think I support it. I'm not certain though. My boy is 12 months away from me needing to make a decision. I'm far from wealthy but I only have one child and I could stretch to make it happen and send him private. I don't want to though in one respect because I fundamentally disagree with it. State schools though are falling apart. I've got quite a few friends who teach at different age grades of state schools and from what they say, the Panorama episode the other week which was pretty damning is just the tip of the iceberg and it's all funding based. I was also on a safeguarding course recently and sat next to a local headteacher all day and he's said the same. The problem with the lack of funding is that teachers just don't get the quality of time with the kids and they have to focus on targets instead of the kids needs. They're teaching our kids to pass exams and that's about it because the don't have the bandwidth to help and develop them as much as they can. Private schools yeah they have all the facilities but the reason their kids excel is because not only do the teachers have the time to spend with them which is huge but then the sayings that are true like 'its not what you know, its who you know' etc because invariably the kids from those schools will be children of business owners, barristers etc who can leverage who they know. Also, your kids knowing those kids will create more opportunities for them too. On one hand I want the best for my kid and on the other I want the best for all kids. If we are ever going to achieve the best for all kids then I see removing the private schools would be more helpful than damaging because I think overnight we would see the funding of state schools drastically change... State schools are great, with much better teachers than when we were kids. The problem is the kids or should I say their parents or lack of parenting. Teachers can’t teach if all their time is spent policing. When parents of independent schools kids are whacking out £15k per year, it focuses their minds on what the children are doing...
|
|
|
Post by M on Sept 22, 2019 9:11:20 GMT
I think I support it. I'm not certain though. My boy is 12 months away from me needing to make a decision. I'm far from wealthy but I only have one child and I could stretch to make it happen and send him private. I don't want to though in one respect because I fundamentally disagree with it. State schools though are falling apart. I've got quite a few friends who teach at different age grades of state schools and from what they say, the Panorama episode the other week which was pretty damning is just the tip of the iceberg and it's all funding based. I was also on a safeguarding course recently and sat next to a local headteacher all day and he's said the same. The problem with the lack of funding is that teachers just don't get the quality of time with the kids and they have to focus on targets instead of the kids needs. They're teaching our kids to pass exams and that's about it because the don't have the bandwidth to help and develop them as much as they can. Private schools yeah they have all the facilities but the reason their kids excel is because not only do the teachers have the time to spend with them which is huge but then the sayings that are true like 'its not what you know, its who you know' etc because invariably the kids from those schools will be children of business owners, barristers etc who can leverage who they know. Also, your kids knowing those kids will create more opportunities for them too. On one hand I want the best for my kid and on the other I want the best for all kids. If we are ever going to achieve the best for all kids then I see removing the private schools would be more helpful than damaging because I think overnight we would see the funding of state schools drastically change... State schools are great, with much better teachers than when we were kids. The problem is the kids or should I say their parents or lack of parenting. Teachers can’t teach if all their time is spent policing. When parents of independent schools kids are whacking out £15k per year, it focuses their minds on what the children are doing... Personally I don't think you recognise what is taking up all of the teachers' time. Yes there are some disruptive kids. Yes there are some poor parents. There always has been and there always will be but contributing the crisis within education towards parents/kids is not fair or constructive. With poverty increasing schools are having to subsidise meals out of their own budgets. They're washing clothes for some too. Kids with conditions like autism are now integrated in to mainstream schools instead of being sent to 'dumb' schools which is great but those kids need more 121 support. The lack of funding is making schools have to prioritise where they spend what they've got and invariably have to cut it in wages and staff. You find teachers now in their 30s being classed as old teachers because conditions are leaving more experienced ones running for the hills. Again, this isn't me passing on my opinion this is what teachers are telling me...
|
|
|
Post by bathstoke on Sept 22, 2019 9:32:16 GMT
State schools are great, with much better teachers than when we were kids. The problem is the kids or should I say their parents or lack of parenting. Teachers can’t teach if all their time is spent policing. When parents of independent schools kids are whacking out £15k per year, it focuses their minds on what the children are doing... Personally I don't think you recognise what is taking up all of the teachers' time. Yes there are some disruptive kids. Yes there are some poor parents. There always has been and there always will be but contributing the crisis within education towards parents/kids is not fair or constructive. With poverty increasing schools are having to subsidise meals out of their own budgets. They're washing clothes for some too. Kids with conditions like autism are now integrated in to mainstream schools instead of being sent to 'dumb' schools which is great but those kids need more 121 support. The lack of funding is making schools have to prioritise where they spend what they've got and invariably have to cut it in wages and staff. You find teachers now in their 30s being classed as old teachers because conditions are leaving more experienced ones running for the hills. Again, this isn't me passing on my opinion this is what teachers are telling me... I don’t doubt that head teachers have to prioritise budgets & teachers earn their pay. Schools get extra money for children with ‘additional needs’ and those who’s parents are on benefits. There are still special schools for those children that can’t deal with mainstream schools. I know loads of teachers & have 3 children at 3 different schools & am well aware of the issues & cnuting children is a major problem.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 12:13:51 GMT
teaching in the state sector is not good for mental health. Why? In Sweden 95-99% of all schools are state schools. When I grew up in 70ies we didn't have the so called "Free schools" (meaning "free" from the state), as we have nowadays. The SocialDemocrats were ruling this country then and decided the teaching plans. I was obviously in a sort of school where all or almost all the teachers were communists. Their solution to knowledge was, if we skip grades in schools in society noone has to feel miserable, like sweeping the lack of knowledge under the carpet ... so it can't be seen before it's too late. The results in our schools run by the state decreased. Then the SocialDemocrats lost their power to the Conservatives and Liberals for a period and grades at school were re-installed. Then after a few turns they lost and we got the SocialDemocrats again. They had to fall for pressure, and agreed on some free schools, if they in some way were controlled by the state. Then we've had all the waves of immigrants the last decade, asking to start free schools. But above all, many of them are not able to read at all, not even their native language - so we're falling behind again, at international measures. It makes you wonder, what are the politicians afraid of? Lots of reasons, Over-examination of students, extremely intrusive over-scrutinising of teachers, emphasis on empirically useless league tables, emphasis on exam results, overworking staff, poor pay compared with working hours, poor funding of schools, no mental health care for staff in most schools, over intrusive parental scrutiny, class sizes large enough that research proves you cannot affect every student, working to a restrictive template of teaching because the school has to do things the Goveian way. It's horrible.
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Sept 22, 2019 12:15:47 GMT
Why? In Sweden 95-99% of all schools are state schools. When I grew up in 70ies we didn't have the so called "Free schools" (meaning "free" from the state), as we have nowadays. The SocialDemocrats were ruling this country then and decided the teaching plans. I was obviously in a sort of school where all or almost all the teachers were communists. Their solution to knowledge was, if we skip grades in schools in society noone has to feel miserable, like sweeping the lack of knowledge under the carpet ... so it can't be seen before it's too late. The results in our schools run by the state decreased. Then the SocialDemocrats lost their power to the Conservatives and Liberals for a period and grades at school were re-installed. Then after a few turns they lost and we got the SocialDemocrats again. They had to fall for pressure, and agreed on some free schools, if they in some way were controlled by the state. Then we've had all the waves of immigrants the last decade, asking to start free schools. But above all, many of them are not able to read at all, not even their native language - so we're falling behind again, at international measures. It makes you wonder, what are the politicians afraid of? Lots of reasons, Over-examination of students, extremely intrusive over-scrutinising of teachers, emphasis on empirically useless league tables, emphasis on exam results, overworking staff, poor pay compared with working hours, poor funding of schools, no mental health care for staff in most schools, over intrusive parental scrutiny, class sizes large enough that research proves you cannot affect every student, working to a restrictive template of teaching because the school has to do things the Goveian way. It's horrible. You’ve gone from uni straight into a private school job you don’t know the real world. It’s like these fuckers who go uni-political party researcher- mp You need a few years digging roads, 4 on 4 off in a factory or 6 months in a desert. Will give you some perspective on life. It’s a good job people go more right wing as they get older.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 12:23:12 GMT
Lots of reasons, Over-examination of students, extremely intrusive over-scrutinising of teachers, emphasis on empirically useless league tables, emphasis on exam results, overworking staff, poor pay compared with working hours, poor funding of schools, no mental health care for staff in most schools, over intrusive parental scrutiny, class sizes large enough that research proves you cannot affect every student, working to a restrictive template of teaching because the school has to do things the Goveian way. It's horrible. You’ve gone from uni straight into a private school job you don’t know the real world. It’s like these fuckers who go uni-political party researcher- mp You need a few years digging roads, 4 on 4 off in a factory or 6 months in a desert. Will give you some perspective on life. It’s a good job people go more right wing as they get older. Oddly enough, I've become more and more left wing since I got into work. Must be the influence of the old man wearing off. And academia is a bloody cut-throat industry, job security for most in research science at universities is almost non-existent.
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Sept 22, 2019 12:39:33 GMT
You’ve gone from uni straight into a private school job you don’t know the real world. It’s like these fuckers who go uni-political party researcher- mp You need a few years digging roads, 4 on 4 off in a factory or 6 months in a desert. Will give you some perspective on life. It’s a good job people go more right wing as they get older. Oddly enough, I've become more and more left wing since I got into work. Must be the influence of the old man wearing off. And academia is a bloody cut-throat industry, job security for most in research science at universities is almost non-existent. Stop fucking moaning then accept you have a very good job with decent money life style and prospects Yes there are some constraints but compared to what some other folks have to do you still remain in that place of privilege you had through birth school uni and now work. Youth of today moan I’m fucking paradise
|
|
|
Post by flea79 on Sept 22, 2019 13:23:59 GMT
Are people really taken in by comrade Corbins man of the people act? He went to a fucking private school!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 13:31:30 GMT
Oddly enough, I've become more and more left wing since I got into work. Must be the influence of the old man wearing off. And academia is a bloody cut-throat industry, job security for most in research science at universities is almost non-existent. Stop fucking moaning then accept you have a very good job with decent money life style and prospects Yes there are some constraints but compared to what some other folks have to do you still remain in that place of privilege you had through birth school uni and now work. Youth of today moan I’m fucking paradise I'm not moaning about my life or prospects, I'm very lucky to be where I am, and that's the point. I got here through a hell of a lot of privilege that I didn't always earn. Very few will get the opportunities I have had and that is wrong. It's not my fault or my parents' fault, but I still feel that private schools instinctively are an extension of unearned privilege to those with more money. You can be in a good position and still feel that things are wrong.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 13:32:15 GMT
Are people really taken in by comrade Corbins man of the people act? He went to a fucking private school! So if your parents send you to private school you're not allowed to want to help the less fortunate?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 13:35:23 GMT
Are people really taken in by comrade Corbins man of the people act? He went to a fucking private school! Not sure kids have much of a say on what school they go to though so not sure how that is hypocrisy? Sending your own kids there, then absolutely you’re fair game for that accusation but not sure many 6 or 11 year olds would argue with their partners that they fundamentally disagree with the principle of private education......
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Sept 22, 2019 13:39:10 GMT
Stop fucking moaning then accept you have a very good job with decent money life style and prospects Yes there are some constraints but compared to what some other folks have to do you still remain in that place of privilege you had through birth school uni and now work. Youth of today moan I’m fucking paradise I'm not moaning about my life or prospects, I'm very lucky to be where I am, and that's the point. I got here through a hell of a lot of privilege that I didn't always earn. Very few will get the opportunities I have had and that is wrong. It's not my fault or my parents' fault, but I still feel that private schools instinctively are an extension of unearned privilege to those with more money. You can be in a good position and still feel that things are wrong. Go work in a state school. Use that privilege you’ve had all your life to give something back Ironically that would be a very left wing socialist thing to do but when the crunch comes Oh hang on
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Sept 22, 2019 13:42:38 GMT
It seems to me lilfraise you quite like the privilege. See that working In a state school is tougher than what you’ve had in your life so will stay put. Yes mate your right. Quite the lefty. Owen Jones would be proud
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Sept 22, 2019 13:44:01 GMT
At least boother spouts his libertarianism shit from a comp
|
|
|
Post by elystokie on Sept 22, 2019 13:59:51 GMT
If they want to make the state schools better they should stop forcing disruptive kids to go, most of whom would really rather be anywhere else than stuck in a classroom, it doesn't suit everybody and I'm pretty sure it's not something we've evolved to do.
For me, if they can do some basic maths and read and write then if they'd rather fix washing machines, plaster walls or breed zebras then let them go and do that and become of some use to society instead of a blight on it.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 14:32:14 GMT
I'm not moaning about my life or prospects, I'm very lucky to be where I am, and that's the point. I got here through a hell of a lot of privilege that I didn't always earn. Very few will get the opportunities I have had and that is wrong. It's not my fault or my parents' fault, but I still feel that private schools instinctively are an extension of unearned privilege to those with more money. You can be in a good position and still feel that things are wrong. Go work in a state school. Use that privilege you’ve had all your life to give something back Ironically that would be a very left wing socialist thing to do but when the crunch comes Oh hang on I've said why I don't. What I have done in my 1 single year of teaching is to put forward plans for improving teaching of my subject in all schools. As if I can't complain about state education and the way it treats teachers and students, because I'm not a part of it currently. I don't think people should benefit so much because their parents happen to be rich, but I also don't have the mental strength to be a full time state school teacher. I don't believe landlording is a fair or morally right thing, but I still rent a house.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 14:35:18 GMT
It seems to me lilfraise you quite like the privilege. See that working In a state school is tougher than what you’ve had in your life so will stay put. Yes mate your right. Quite the lefty. Owen Jones would be proud It is, and I will, but I still do a lot of extra work writing and researching on state education and inclusions. Why is there such a weird culture where you try and 'trap' people who are left wing in doing things that are part of the society they currently live in to get a weird sense of false satisfaction? Advocating for systemic change doesn't mean you can't work in the system that's currently in place. In fact, you have to.
|
|
|
Post by wizzardofdribble on Sept 22, 2019 14:36:51 GMT
I remember doing teacher training yonks ago at Lancaster University after graduating from Keele as a mature student (having worked in pot banks for 10 years).
When I went on placement I spent a month in a comprehensive in Croxteth (shit-hole) with extremely disruptive pupils and brilliant teachers.
Then I spent a month at a private fee-paying school in Crosby.
The difference was unbelievable.
Typical response in Croxteth "Fuck Off I'm not doing that"
Crosby "Morning Sir" with all their books and equipment in front of them.
Needless to say that I got a job teaching in a private school.
Piece of piss compared to State Schools..
But its state schools that have the best teaching.
Fee paying parents also employ private tutors to work with their children at home.
That wouldn't end if we abolished private schools.
At the end of the day we all want the best for our children but not all of us can afford it.
That's Life.
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Sept 22, 2019 14:37:49 GMT
Go work in a state school. Use that privilege you’ve had all your life to give something back Ironically that would be a very left wing socialist thing to do but when the crunch comes Oh hang on I've said why I don't. What I have done in my 1 single year of teaching is to put forward plans for improving teaching of my subject in all schools. As if I can't complain about state education and the way it treats teachers and students, because I'm not a part of it currently. I don't think people should benefit so much because their parents happen to be rich, but I also don't have the mental strength to be a full time state school teacher. I don't believe landlording is a fair or morally right thing, but I still rent a house. You dont have to justify what you do to me But it’s very hard to spout the leftist shit you do from a lifetime of privilege without showing an inkling to go and help those that need it. Very easy to moan about the problems without trying to fix it You do indeed have the mental strength. You just done know it yet
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 14:41:13 GMT
I've said why I don't. What I have done in my 1 single year of teaching is to put forward plans for improving teaching of my subject in all schools. As if I can't complain about state education and the way it treats teachers and students, because I'm not a part of it currently. I don't think people should benefit so much because their parents happen to be rich, but I also don't have the mental strength to be a full time state school teacher. I don't believe landlording is a fair or morally right thing, but I still rent a house. You dont have to justify what you do to me But it’s very hard to spout the leftist shit you do from a lifetime of privilege without showing an inkling to go and help those that need it. Very easy to moan about the problems without trying to fix it You do indeed have the mental strength. You just done know it yet Well you called me out for what I do. It's not the fault of mine that I have the privilege I do, but I can still believe it is unfair to have it. And who says I don't try to help fix it?
|
|
|
Post by salopstick on Sept 22, 2019 14:43:34 GMT
I remember doing teacher training yonks ago at Lancaster University after graduating from Keele as a mature student (having worked in pot banks for 10 years). When I went on placement I spent a month in a comprehensive in Croxteth (shit-hole) with extremely disruptive pupils and brilliant teachers. Then I spent a month at a private fee-paying school in Crosby. The difference was unbelievable. Typical response in Croxteth "Fuck Off I'm not doing that" Crosby "Morning Sir" with all their books and equipment in front of them. Needless to say that I got a job teaching in a private school. Piece of piss compared to State Schools.. But its state schools that have the best teaching. Fee paying parents also employ private tutors to work with their children at home. That wouldn't end if we abolished private schools. At the end of the day we all want the best for our children but not all of us can afford it. That's Life. I agree However regardless of your background or school you go to pupils need to work and also be kept in check at home. I bet there was a difference between what most parents at Crosby and Croxley pushed their kids or made sure homework was done etc Kids can succeed in all environments. I understand it may be harder in state school but kids need to understand that they have to work hard in school get the quals they need for work. There are good teachers out their working in less than perfect conditions. I’d say the bad kids are a minority. In general they do a great job
|
|
|
Post by wizzardofdribble on Sept 22, 2019 14:46:42 GMT
I remember doing teacher training yonks ago at Lancaster University after graduating from Keele as a mature student (having worked in pot banks for 10 years). When I went on placement I spent a month in a comprehensive in Croxteth (shit-hole) with extremely disruptive pupils and brilliant teachers. Then I spent a month at a private fee-paying school in Crosby. The difference was unbelievable. Typical response in Croxteth "Fuck Off I'm not doing that" Crosby "Morning Sir" with all their books and equipment in front of them. Needless to say that I got a job teaching in a private school. Piece of piss compared to State Schools.. But its state schools that have the best teaching. Fee paying parents also employ private tutors to work with their children at home. That wouldn't end if we abolished private schools. At the end of the day we all want the best for our children but not all of us can afford it. That's Life. I agree However regardless of your background or school you go to pupils need to work and also be kept in check at home. I bet there was a difference between what most parents at Crosby and Croxley pushed their kids or made sure homework was done etc Kids can succeed in all environments. I understand it may be harder in state school but kids need to understand that they have to work hard in school get the quals they need for work. There are good teachers out their working in less than perfect conditions. I’d say the bad kids are a minority. In general they do a great job The bottom line is always parents. Teaching children self discipline and responsibility is what good parents do. You get nowhere without hard work is something I've drilled into mine.
|
|
|
Post by elystokie on Sept 22, 2019 15:02:44 GMT
|
|
|
Post by wizzardofdribble on Sept 22, 2019 15:15:40 GMT
Just listened to that. Education in a Post Industrial Age has got to be different than in an Industrial Age..hence the 'Paradigm' shift in thinking needed. We live in a very different world now than when I left school, economically and culturally. I'm not sure whether the education has caught up with that. The questions being: What are we educating children for? What will be be tomorrow's jobs? ???
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 15:24:32 GMT
Just listened to that. Education in a Post Industrial Age has got to be different than in an Industrial Age..hence the 'Paradigm' shift in thinking needed. We live in a very different world now than when I left school, economically and culturally. I'm not sure whether the education has caught up with that. The questions being: What are we educating children for?
What will be be tomorrow's jobs?
??? That's the issue for me. Education in it's original form was to give everyone enough knowledge and skills to work in a factory. Education based on 'what job can you get with this' will always be low-quality, because it doesn't base itself in contentment of people or indeed in truth, because we don't know the jobs of 10 years in the future. Education should be free for all throughout life, and it should be there to better yourself. Education up until 18 should be based around skills and depth of knowledge. In physics in particular, plenty of people get straight 9s in GCSE, and can't deal with University or careers in physics because they have only learned to remember facts and how to answer specific questions. Until we base education on wanting people to be conscientious, creative, and happy in later life, enjoying what they want to do, we will always have the same problems.
|
|
|
Post by Pretty Little Boother on Sept 22, 2019 15:28:09 GMT
Just listened to that. Education in a Post Industrial Age has got to be different than in an Industrial Age..hence the 'Paradigm' shift in thinking needed. We live in a very different world now than when I left school, economically and culturally. I'm not sure whether the education has caught up with that. The questions being: What are we educating children for?
What will be be tomorrow's jobs?
??? That's the issue for me. Education in it's original form was to give everyone enough knowledge and skills to work in a factory. Education based on 'what job can you get with this' will always be low-quality, because it doesn't base itself in contentment of people or indeed in truth, because we don't know the jobs of 10 years in the future. Education should be free for all throughout life, and it should be there to better yourself. Education up until 18 should be based around skills and depth of knowledge. In physics in particular, plenty of people get straight 9s in GCSE, and can't deal with University or careers in physics because they have only learned to remember facts and how to answer specific questions. Until we base education on wanting people to be conscientious, creative, and happy in later life, enjoying what they want to do, we will always have the same problems. Don't chat bullshit, if it's free, who's going to pay us? I certainly couldn't afford to carry on teaching kids without my monthly pay. Or do you mean funded through taxation? Because that's not free, you're just saying someone else should pay for it.
|
|