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Post by dastokie on Aug 25, 2019 14:19:53 GMT
Just watched highlights to describe some of these has players is a joke.
First and second goal McClean is embarrassing.
How many more games will this idiot play for us.
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Post by bridgnorthstokie on Aug 25, 2019 14:32:00 GMT
Too much player power these days they can do what they want knowing there big fat pay check will be paid regardless. Who still isn’t trying that isn’t in the bomb squad? That's what I want to know as well. Yesterday's squad was made up of Butland, Allen, Edwards all 2yrs+ at club. Ince, McLean, clucas, Etebo, Federici, Woods all just at the start of their 2nd season here. All others in yesterday's squad are this summers acquisitions. With Shawcross on the injured list. Presumably the bomb squad Indi, wimmer, bauer, imbula, ndiaye are having no daily input with th first team squad so where is this mentality lack of character coming from Find them, and put them in the bomb squad until we get rid of this attitude around the first team we can not progress at all. |
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Post by cousindupree on Aug 25, 2019 14:41:25 GMT
I don’t think there is any evidence he didn’t choose the players and he got 11. We do need a technical director but I don’t think Jones was let down. Due to the restrictions of FFP NJ was offered a very limited list of players because he could have. No manager would choose to just buy freebies. I’d rather he spent the amount he did on less but better players. He went for quantity over quality. Some of whom weren’t fit for purpose. Not one of them has had a positive impact other than maybe Gregory and Hoga. A club our size can’t afford to buy so many players who don’t improve us. Davies - not in the squad Smith - dropped Carter Vickers - poor Cousins - dropped and out of his depth. Lindsey - bang average Ward - barely played Powell - injured Duffy - early days. Hogan - ok but not Gayle Gregory - good workrate but no goals yet. The mess we’re in is 3 years in the making because - we’ve made some dreadful signings that have crucified us financially Imbula, NDaiye, Berahino, Wimmer, Bauer, Vokes, Clucas, Afobe. - we kept players that we needed to sell that didn’t cut it in the Championship. - when we hit the Championship we gave a large budget to a manager who basically wasted a huge amount on the likes of Ince, Afobe, Clucas and McClean. - We then gave NJ limited funding which he wasted on players that have made no impact on a team that struggled last season which has resulted in us being even worse. Absolute shambles!!!!! Scholes out!!!!! You haven't mentioned Vokes and Bath both now seem to be not first choice. How much did they cost? Most of our problems are clearly down to poor recruitment. In a very long list from 4 windows only Etebo stands out as a quality signing. I guess our recruitment has been recognised as not fit for purpose hence Cartos demise. But many of the signings were clearly the manager's and the problem is nobody challenges these decisions. So by giving the manager carte blanche in his recruitment we often end up with shite. We have long needed a big hitter at DOG level who doesn't come from knowing Coates or the manager. Someone who can take an outside view and implement major changes. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 14:45:58 GMT
Who still isn’t trying that isn’t in the bomb squad? That's what I want to know as well. Yesterday's squad was made up of Butland, Allen, Edwards all 2yrs+ at club. Ince, McLean, clucas, Etebo, Federici, Woods all just at the start of their 2nd season here. All others in yesterday's squad are this summers acquisitions. With Shawcross on the injured list. Presumably the bomb squad Indi, wimmer, bauer, imbula, ndiaye are having no daily input with th first team squad so where is this mentality lack of character coming from Find them, and put them in the bomb squad until we get rid of this attitude around the first team we can not progress at all. Which is why I just don’t believe this current lack of character is even true! He’s bought 11 players. He’s been allowed a bomb squad and yet when things aren’t going to plan he starts saying stuff like this. Just seems like an easy excuse. |
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Post by chumley on Aug 25, 2019 16:21:14 GMT
What i can't work out is how players sign for us then soon seem to take on the club mentality ie devoid of any desire or confidence. It seems as prev stated that they are promised things and once signed treated differently which pisses them off, something is definitely upsetting within the club whether it;s scholes promising things and not delivering, but i can;t find any other common denominator who's been here thro several managers,Maybe its Joe Allan who is disruptive or him being on Prem league wages.?? it just seems they sign full of energy and hope and after a few games they are petrified and lose interest. If you were being sent out week after week in a system you knew you were suited and despite your best efforts was failing, how would you feel? I know what youre saying but it's been happening for too long |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 20:23:00 GMT
Jack Butland Tom Edwards Stephen Ward Joe Allen Liam Lindsay Danny Batth Tom Ince Peter Etebo Sam Vokes James McClean Cameron Carter-Vickers (on loan from Spurs) Tommy Smith Bruno Martins Indi Adam Davies Ryan Shawcross (captain) Lee Gregory Scott Hogan (on loan from Aston Villa) Sam Clucas Thibaud Verlinden Jordan Cousins Nick Powell Tyrese Campbell Badou Ndiaye Mark Duffy (on loan from Sheffield United) Adam Federici Lasse Sørensen Nathan Collins Ryan Woods Moritz Bauer Kevin Wimmer Giannelli Imbula Mame Biram Diouf Julien Ngoy That squad is just crazy. This probably veers off topic but with that whole squad lined up I just thought I'd slip in another crazy fact. Jones has already chopped and changed so much in five games that only two players have a chance of becoming ever presents this season; Gregory and Clucas! Of those Gregory, who hasn't remotely looked like scoring but seems to like hitting the woodwork, must surely be dropped soon. As for Clucas I think he's been one of our worst players so far. Seems to be hiding much of the times, favours backpasses to anything goalbound, and when he does shoot seems to take aim at the sky. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 20:39:44 GMT
Malisstokie completely agree !!! All the chopping and changing as undermined the confidence of the players ... in my opinion (it’s only one opinion) the manager has felt under pressure to change a loosing side to often resulting in the present predicament!!! Personally I would have played all the young talent we have!!! In this way, Jones would have been given time! I don't think that he's been pressurised into the chopping and changing. I think it's his misguided idea of keeping everyone on their toes and keeping everybody happy by utilising the full squad. He did that last season as well, but it was probably accepted because he wanted to suss out who he could use and who not. He's probably right if he thought that most were no good, but still he kept many of them on, and so by this stage, having signed 12 players over 7 months, he should know who his best 11 are. But he has no idea. |
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Post by potterpaul on Aug 26, 2019 8:04:48 GMT
I don’t think there is any evidence he didn’t choose the players and he got 11. We do need a technical director but I don’t think Jones was let down. Due to the restrictions of FFP NJ was offered a very limited list of players because he could have. No manager would choose to just buy freebies. I’d rather he spent the amount he did on less but better players. He went for quantity over quality. Some of whom weren’t fit for purpose. Not one of them has had a positive impact other than maybe Gregory and Hoga. A club our size can’t afford to buy so many players who don’t improve us. Davies - not in the squad Smith - dropped Carter Vickers - poor Cousins - dropped and out of his depth. Lindsey - bang average Ward - barely played Powell - injured Duffy - early days. Hogan - ok but not Gayle Gregory - good workrate but no goals yet. The mess we’re in is 3 years in the making because - we’ve made some dreadful signings that have crucified us financially Imbula, NDaiye, Berahino, Wimmer, Bauer, Vokes, Clucas, Afobe. - we kept players that we needed to sell that didn’t cut it in the Championship. - when we hit the Championship we gave a large budget to a manager who basically wasted a huge amount on the likes of Ince, Afobe, Clucas and McClean. - We then gave NJ limited funding which he wasted on players that have made no impact on a team that struggled last season which has resulted in us being even worse. Absolute shambles!!!!! Scholes out!!!!! You can't lay any of that on Scholes, even he gave away his thoughts on our new recruitment policy early in the window, something along the lines We are choosing players from lower league in a HOPE that they can step up. If you want to bash Scholes for anything it will be player contract related, I will gladly bull whip him personally for some outrageous decisions that have set this club back at least 5 years, topping that list of outrageous decisions would be offering Joe fucking Allen and others a new PL pay deal after relegation. |
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Post by GreaterGlasgowstokie on Aug 26, 2019 8:23:13 GMT
Excellent thread estokie.
Once you scratch under the surface it's easy to pick apart the usual lazy theories of 'bad eggs'
Its just bad management
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Post by skip on Aug 26, 2019 18:08:52 GMT
So, we have created a problem of signing expensive players who should - or believe they should or could - be playing at a higher level, that affects them in a number of ways, petulance, fears of their international careers suffering, or simply the indignity of playing in a second tier league. Now we have a problem of lower league players and peripheral squad players incapable of upping their game to play at the level that a club attempting to climb back into the top flight requires. So what is the third pool that we should be fishing in? Should we have used our financial muscle to steal better players from other Championship clubs? Or look further afield with a progressive, astute smart tracking and scouting policy looking for European players who would suit the Championship and possess the requisite skill set. But, we can wish a different transfer policy but one suspects the first problem - expensive flop signings - and the second problem - lower standard triers - in combination is a pretty lethal. We have a massive squad made up of mismatches and one suspects, only a few of them know that they are fit for purpose and the rest turn up and do as they're told, whether its working or not.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 18:14:26 GMT
So, we have created a problem of signing expensive players who should - or believe they should or could - be playing at a higher level, that affects them in a number of ways, petulance, fears of their international careers suffering, or simply the indignity of playing in a second tier league. Now we have a problem of lower league players and peripheral squad players incapable of upping their game to play at the level that a club attempting to climb back into the top flight requires. So what is the third pool that we should be fishing in? Should we have used our financial muscle to steal better players from other Championship clubs? Or look further afield with a progressive, astute smart tracking and scouting policy looking for European players who would suit the Championship and possess the requisite skill set. But, we can wish a different transfer policy but one suspects the first problem - expensive flop signings - and the second problem - lower standard triers - in combination is a pretty lethal. We have a massive squad made up of mismatches and one suspects, only a few of them know that they are fit for purpose and the rest turn up and do as they're told, whether its working or not. Wasn’t at all the point of the thread. In fact it was almost the opposite but nevermind. |
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Post by skip on Aug 26, 2019 18:28:50 GMT
So, we have created a problem of signing expensive players who should - or believe they should or could - be playing at a higher level, that affects them in a number of ways, petulance, fears of their international careers suffering, or simply the indignity of playing in a second tier league. Now we have a problem of lower league players and peripheral squad players incapable of upping their game to play at the level that a club attempting to climb back into the top flight requires. So what is the third pool that we should be fishing in? Should we have used our financial muscle to steal better players from other Championship clubs? Or look further afield with a progressive, astute smart tracking and scouting policy looking for European players who would suit the Championship and possess the requisite skill set. But, we can wish a different transfer policy but one suspects the first problem - expensive flop signings - and the second problem - lower standard triers - in combination is a pretty lethal. We have a massive squad made up of mismatches and one suspects, only a few of them know that they are fit for purpose and the rest turn up and do as they're told, whether its working or not. Wasn’t at all the point of the thread. In fact it was almost the opposite but nevermind. Apologies if my post was a digression to the purpose of the thread, I was just mulling stuff over. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 18:34:13 GMT
Wasn’t at all the point of the thread. In fact it was almost the opposite but nevermind. Apologies if my post was a digression to the purpose of the thread, I was just mulling stuff over. I didn’t meant to come across as the thread police! It’s just interesting because my point was that not all these players can be bad. We had a situation where about 4 to 5 players were bad and yet the story has carried on for three years now. I get the point about the different salaries and can see why that would have caused a problem between our relegation squad with some on more than other when some were given new contracts. Possibly the Rowett boys as well if they didn’t know about it but surely everyone now knows the situation. Liam Lindsay hasn’t come here expecting to be paid the same as Ryan Shawcross. The likes of Stephan Ward and Lee Gregory know the deal. It feels to me like the bad apples thing has spiralled and now everything has to fit into that whole narrative. When it was only about 4 or 5 knobheads in the first place! |
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Post by skip on Aug 26, 2019 18:42:06 GMT
No, I get what you are saying - its an interesting thread - as I agree with you that the 'bad apples' cliché is just that, and it's certainly not helping. What I was ruminating over just above, was that we've got two types of players (IMHO) due to a confused or knee jerk transfer policy, but that doesn't make them bad apples.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 18:53:32 GMT
No, I get what you are saying - its an interesting thread - as I agree with you that the 'bad apples' cliché is just that, and it's certainly not helping. What I was ruminating over just above, was that we've got two types of players (IMHO) due to a confused or knee jerk transfer policy, but that doesn't make them bad apples. We do. I think it’s more worrying that we have what NJ calls his “competition”. Unfortunately when you’ve not got the Champions League or the Europa League, most of our players would be sat on a bench in league games. Most teams have a first 11 and back up. It all seems a bit weird to me. Especially when it’s not even two players but you’ve got the likes of Ince, Verlinden, Powell and Duffy all competing for a No.10 role. I feel like this is all going to make the situation worse not better. I get we need more than one player for positions but this all seems a bit much to me. Powell didn’t turn down premier league opportunities to sit on our bench and Duffy hasn’t come to sit on our bench instead of Sheff Utds bench. It’s all very bizarre. And then you got Adam Davies reportedly falling out with Jones as Jones promised him the No.10 jersey and now Butland hasn’t gone. It’s all a massive clusterfuck again. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Aug 26, 2019 19:07:28 GMT
I don't think he calls them bad eggs. To me bad eggs are players who are disruptive and don't try or do their own thing instead of following instructions. What Jones has said is that they drop their heads and can't recover when they concede a goal. These players are totally lacking in confidence not bad eggs. I believe they want to do well but need a psychologist to help them gain confidence. I've no doubt playing to a system they lack confidence in doesn't help
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 19:11:23 GMT
I don't think he calls them bad eggs. To me bad eggs are players who are disruptive and don't try or do their own thing instead of following instructions. What Jones has said is that they drop their heads and can't recover when they concede a goal. These players are totally lacking in confidence not bad eggs. I believe they want to do well but need a psychologist to help them gain confidence. I've no doubt playing to a system they lack confidence in doesn't help After the Preston game he said something about bad attitudes and thinking it was sorted but it isn’t. He’s since back tracked as you said and is now talking about mentality but he definitely went there! |
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Post by ursemboys on Aug 26, 2019 19:47:06 GMT
Just watched highlights to describe some of these has players is a joke. First and second goal McClean is embarrassing. How many more games will this idiot play for us. He are kidding me.he has been one of the best if not the best player up to now.you recon 1st and 2nd down to him ? you aint got a clue |
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Post by bornscfcdiescfc on Aug 26, 2019 19:48:48 GMT
I’ve never started a thread before but I keep seeing our players referred to as bad apples and, Mr Percy’s post about us supporting “disruptive players” really wound me up. So I wanted to write a post in their defence. When we got relegated “bad apples” was the narrative and then it was true. We brought in the wrong players - Wimmer, Imbula, Berahino, Jess and Choupo - and they badly let us down. But most of our relegated squad weren’t bad eggs - Butland, Shawcross, Bruno, Pieters, Allen, Diouf, Bauer, Charlie etc - these were not bad eggs. Last year it looked very much like it was the new signings letting us down - Ince, Woods, Clucas, Afobe (I’m not including McClean because he always at least tries). Yet Rowett laid into he likes of Shawcross and Bojan who (although the signing for Bojan may have been disruptive) are not disruptive. Now we have 11 new players and the manager himself is basically alluding to bad apples which, from where I’m sat, looks exactly like Rowett in throwing players under the bus. Some of them may just not be good enough but they came out trying this season although they look disheartened. So when does the narrative end? When do we start showing our players some loyalty and saying enough is enough. In my view, if there is discontent you can only look to the way some have been treated. Bauer, for example, was given a new contract without knowing the new manager wants him. Tonight the rumours are of a falling out between Davies and Jones because Davies was promised the No.1 shirt. Bojan, whatever you may think of him, seemed to be promised a role last year and never really got much of a chance (see his post Brentford interview before telling me this didn’t happen). Does no-one else find the way players are treated by our club a bit worrying? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 19:49:13 GMT
Just watched highlights to describe some of these has players is a joke. First and second goal McClean is embarrassing. How many more games will this idiot play for us. He are kidding me.he has been one of the best if not the best player up to now.you recon 1st and 2nd down to him ? you aint got a clue He will always be the first for some to blame for anything and everything. Sad really when he’s the only one on the pitch fighting half the time. |
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Post by mickey2693 on Aug 26, 2019 19:52:36 GMT
The players need to step up and take some responsibility for these performances.
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Post by bridgnorthstokie on Aug 26, 2019 19:56:00 GMT
I don't understand how the players we've signed in the summer who have fought all there careers in a very competitive environment can mentally crumble when the going gets tough during a game after only spending a month here.
It just doesn't make sense.
If the weak players are those who were relegated as our players and they still can't get over it, then they must be kept away from the first team squad so not to demoralise the rest. And if that means starting again with youngsters and this summers signings then so be it, we have to remove this defeatist attitude from our dressing room.
If the problem is higher up or is Scholes himself as another poster alluded to then there is not a lot the manager can do until the Coates family wake up and smell the coffee.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 20:00:27 GMT
I don't understand how the players we've signed in the summer who have fought all there careers in a very competitive environment can mentally crumble when the going gets tough during a game after only spending a month here. It just doesn't make sense. If the weak players are those who were relegated as our players and they still can't get over it, then they must be kept away from the first team squad so not to demoralise the rest. And if that means starting again with youngsters and this summers signings then so be it, we have to remove this defeatist attitude from our dressing room. If the problem is higher up or is Scholes himself as another poster alluded to then there is not a lot the manager can do until the Coates family wake up and smell the coffee. You’re literally talking about Butland, Allen and Shawcross now from our relegated squad. It doesn’t make sense because it can’t possibly be true. McClean never gives up. Woods doesn’t really. Ince just drifts in and out at the best of times so that can’t be what he’s on about. They didn’t even give up at Leeds. Leeds stepped up a gear but we were doing exactly the same throughout. |
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Post by s8to on Aug 26, 2019 20:22:54 GMT
A clever press leak by the club to deflect focus off the manager. For all of the reasons above how can it be the players?
Total crap all spun up by Tony and the boys!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 20:26:09 GMT
A clever press leak by the club to deflect focus off the manager. For all of the reasons above how can it be the players? Total crap all spun up by Tony and the boys! It was a coincidence that Rowett got the chop after the Scholes and Cartwright chants started... Not that he shouldn’t have gone but it all happened very quickly when those chants started. |
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Post by s8to on Aug 26, 2019 20:30:31 GMT
A clever press leak by the club to deflect focus off the manager. For all of the reasons above how can it be the players? Total crap all spun up by Tony and the boys! It was a coincidence that Rowett got the chop after the Scholes and Cartwright chants started... Not that he shouldn’t have gone but it all happened very quickly when those chants started. Yes very interesting that.. timing hehe? |
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Post by Championship Potter on Aug 26, 2019 20:38:59 GMT
Malisstokie completely agree !!! All the chopping and changing as undermined the confidence of the players ... in my opinion (it’s only one opinion) the manager has felt under pressure to change a loosing side to often resulting in the present predicament!!! Personally I would have played all the young talent we have!!! In this way, Jones would have been given time! I don't think that he's been pressurised into the chopping and changing. I think it's his misguided idea of keeping everyone on their toes and keeping everybody happy by utilising the full squad. He did that last season as well, but it was probably accepted because he wanted to suss out who he could use and who not. He's probably right if he thought that most were no good, but still he kept many of them on, and so by this stage, having signed 12 players over 7 months, he should know who his best 11 are. But he has no idea. That's the most worrying thing for me. Afobe was deemed good enough to start our opener and then shipped out the next game. Woods barely played last season but is then dropped in immediately because of how poor Cousins, our sole defensive midfielder, looked. Vokes, despite costing £9m and having a decent pre season, can't get on the bench currently. We can't keep changing 6 players every game. If we'd kept the same 11 from the opener, with Woods for Cousins, there's no way we'd be on 1 point now. |
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Post by stokiepoe on Aug 26, 2019 20:57:39 GMT
It all comes down to poor previous investment restricting us to who we can get in. The likes of Lindsey, Cousins and Davies might be Jones’s players but I bet he’s got a very small pool to choose them from. If he’d got the budget Rowett had we’d have a very different lineup. Sorry but you don’t get £50m in the championship. Most clubs had similar budgets to us this year and make use of the loan market. My original point is how can he now say they are bad apples and turn on the players. Most which he bought. Now people are saying “he didn’t want those players” when there’s no evidence to suggest that whatsoever. Most were brought in on the first day - first choices not back up choices. If what you say is true then why have we not got the playing staff to implement the diamond formation the system he plays, so why would he buy players that don’t fit his way of playing |
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Post by berahinosgoals on Aug 26, 2019 21:00:19 GMT
Too much player power these days they can do what they want knowing there big fat pay check will be paid regardless. Exactly, it's pointless keep sacking managers, the players need to know a man is in place whatever the outcome so they either work hard for that man or fade away |
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Post by berahinosgoals on Aug 26, 2019 21:04:50 GMT
I’ve never started a thread before but I keep seeing our players referred to as bad apples and, Mr Percy’s post about us supporting “disruptive players” really wound me up. So I wanted to write a post in their defence. When we got relegated “bad apples” was the narrative and then it was true. We brought in the wrong players - Wimmer, Imbula, Berahino, Jess and Choupo - and they badly let us down. But most of our relegated squad weren’t bad eggs - Butland, Shawcross, Bruno, Pieters, Allen, Diouf, Bauer, Charlie etc - these were not bad eggs. Last year it looked very much like it was the new signings letting us down - Ince, Woods, Clucas, Afobe (I’m not including McClean because he always at least tries). Yet Rowett laid into he likes of Shawcross and Bojan who (although the signing for Bojan may have been disruptive) are not disruptive. Now we have 11 new players and the manager himself is basically alluding to bad apples which, from where I’m sat, looks exactly like Rowett in throwing players under the bus. Some of them may just not be good enough but they came out trying this season although they look disheartened. So when does the narrative end? When do we start showing our players some loyalty and saying enough is enough. In my view, if there is discontent you can only look to the way some have been treated. Bauer, for example, was given a new contract without knowing the new manager wants him. Tonight the rumours are of a falling out between Davies and Jones because Davies was promised the No.1 shirt. Bojan, whatever you may think of him, seemed to be promised a role last year and never really got much of a chance (see his post Brentford interview before telling me this didn’t happen). Does no-one else find the way players are treated by our club a bit worrying? I dont think we are any different in that respect to any other club. We are a club who actually support our players when they get lengthy injuries, we renew their contracts and have even been known to rehab them until they find another club if they're surplus to us as playing staff. Affelay, Ireland, delap for starters, delap broke his leg during a loan spell and we still signed him. Hard to see bauer crying about a 5 year deal, that money is his given to him by the club, not many will complain about a contract extension. It's about time the players started looking after the club the ungrateful barstewards |
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