|
Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 23:10:26 GMT
I’ve never started a thread before but I keep seeing our players referred to as bad apples and, Mr Percy’s post about us supporting “disruptive players” really wound me up. So I wanted to write a post in their defence.
When we got relegated “bad apples” was the narrative and then it was true. We brought in the wrong players - Wimmer, Imbula, Berahino, Jess and Choupo - and they badly let us down.
But most of our relegated squad weren’t bad eggs - Butland, Shawcross, Bruno, Pieters, Allen, Diouf, Bauer, Charlie etc - these were not bad eggs.
Last year it looked very much like it was the new signings letting us down - Ince, Woods, Clucas, Afobe (I’m not including McClean because he always at least tries). Yet Rowett laid into he likes of Shawcross and Bojan who (although the signing for Bojan may have been disruptive) are not disruptive.
Now we have 11 new players and the manager himself is basically alluding to bad apples which, from where I’m sat, looks exactly like Rowett in throwing players under the bus. Some of them may just not be good enough but they came out trying this season although they look disheartened.
So when does the narrative end? When do we start showing our players some loyalty and saying enough is enough.
In my view, if there is discontent you can only look to the way some have been treated. Bauer, for example, was given a new contract without knowing the new manager wants him. Tonight the rumours are of a falling out between Davies and Jones because Davies was promised the No.1 shirt. Bojan, whatever you may think of him, seemed to be promised a role last year and never really got much of a chance (see his post Brentford interview before telling me this didn’t happen). Does no-one else find the way players are treated by our club a bit worrying?
|
|
|
Post by melbournestokie21 on Aug 25, 2019 5:06:37 GMT
I think Jones has shot himself in the foot, comments wise.
Rowett was to honest and abrupt, Jones on the other hand is full of contradicitons.
Hughes knew how to handle himself the best untill the end when the bear got poked.
Dont they get training for this sort of thing
|
|
whakka
Youth Player
Posts: 322
|
Post by whakka on Aug 25, 2019 5:50:36 GMT
Too much player power these days they can do what they want knowing there big fat pay check will be paid regardless.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 7:43:31 GMT
Any manager needs wins to keep his job Jones come in with a promise of time to rebuild. New contracts shouldn't be given out without the manager say so. Scholes wanted to keep hold of certain players The manager expected players in that he did not get. Certain players were thought to be leaving and have not. We all expected the final day of the window to bring in a left back, DM and a striker. EG Gayle. Jones been let down. Jones then needs to keep Jack to have his ability in the squad. Jack wants to put his international place first before stoke city. Jones needed to put a squad together prompt to be ready for the new season. It a circle of unfortunate events. The answer is a technical director coming in. Instead of individuals doing what they think is best at the time. The technical director will need excellent man management skills. I don’t think there is any evidence he didn’t choose the players and he got 11. We do need a technical director but I don’t think Jones was let down.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 7:51:25 GMT
Too much player power these days they can do what they want knowing there big fat pay check will be paid regardless. Who still isn’t trying that isn’t in the bomb squad?
|
|
|
Post by oslostokie1 on Aug 25, 2019 8:07:59 GMT
I’ve never started a thread before but I keep seeing our players referred to as bad apples and, Mr Percy’s post about us supporting “disruptive players” really wound me up. So I wanted to write a post in their defence. When we got relegated “bad apples” was the narrative and then it was true. We brought in the wrong players - Wimmer, Imbula, Berahino, Jess and Choupo - and they badly let us down. But most of our relegated squad weren’t bad eggs - Butland, Shawcross, Bruno, Pieters, Allen, Diouf, Bauer, Charlie etc - these were not bad eggs. Last year it looked very much like it was the new signings letting us down - Ince, Woods, Clucas, Afobe (I’m not including McClean because he always at least tries). Yet Rowett laid into he likes of Shawcross and Bojan who (although the signing for Bojan may have been disruptive) are not disruptive. Now we have 11 new players and the manager himself is basically alluding to bad apples which, from where I’m sat, looks exactly like Rowett in throwing players under the bus. Some of them may just not be good enough but they came out trying this season although they look disheartened. So when does the narrative end? When do we start showing our players some loyalty and saying enough is enough. In my view, if there is discontent you can only look to the way some have been treated. Bauer, for example, was given a new contract without knowing the new manager wants him. Tonight the rumours are of a falling out between Davies and Jones because Davies was promised the No.1 shirt. Bojan, whatever you may think of him, seemed to be promised a role last year and never really got much of a chance (see his post Brentford interview before telling me this didn’t happen). Does no-one else find the way players are treated by our club a bit worrying? I very much agree. We had the nucleus of a Prem team yet he chose to bomb all of them out instead of integrating a few with his own additions. I just see Jones following Rowett’s lead. I think we will look back on this period in a few years and not be able to distinguish between the two. At least with Hughes and Pulis, they had their own identities even if you may not have agreed occasionally. It’s just a convenient excuse to blame the bad eggs or ex-managers decisions
|
|
|
Post by tosh on Aug 25, 2019 8:10:33 GMT
Too much player power these days they can do what they want knowing there big fat pay check will be paid regardless. Who still isn’t trying that isn’t in the bomb squad? I think that’s right. The players are trying. They just lack quality and are not good enough. Player power didn’t derail Norwich and Sheffield united. They just have better management and key staff making better decisions.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 8:13:39 GMT
Who still isn’t trying that isn’t in the bomb squad? I think that’s right. The players are trying. They just lack quality and are not good enough. Player power didn’t derail Norwich and Sheffield united. They just have better management and key staff making better decisions. We seem to be losing all respect of our players. Some seem to be treated appallingly. Some seem to be promised things then it turning out to be all lies. I just don’t see the majority of them being bad eggs but we seem to be losing all the respect of our players and yet everyone blames the players and I can’t understand what evidence there is to blame them. I can’t see what evidence there ever was to blame them except a very identifiable handful.
|
|
|
Post by cobhamstokey on Aug 25, 2019 8:16:25 GMT
Any manager needs wins to keep his job Jones come in with a promise of time to rebuild. New contracts shouldn't be given out without the manager say so. Scholes wanted to keep hold of certain players The manager expected players in that he did not get. Certain players were thought to be leaving and have not. We all expected the final day of the window to bring in a left back, DM and a striker. EG Gayle. Jones been let down. Jones then needs to keep Jack to have his ability in the squad. Jack wants to put his international place first before stoke city. Jones needed to put a squad together prompt to be ready for the new season. It a circle of unfortunate events. The answer is a technical director coming in. Instead of individuals doing what they think is best at the time. The technical director will need excellent man management skills. I don’t think there is any evidence he didn’t choose the players and he got 11. We do need a technical director but I don’t think Jones was let down. It all comes down to poor previous investment restricting us to who we can get in. The likes of Lindsey, Cousins and Davies might be Jones’s players but I bet he’s got a very small pool to choose them from. If he’d got the budget Rowett had we’d have a very different lineup.
|
|
|
Post by mks1958 on Aug 25, 2019 8:16:32 GMT
The most common sense I've read about Stoke in a long time
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 8:21:03 GMT
I don’t think there is any evidence he didn’t choose the players and he got 11. We do need a technical director but I don’t think Jones was let down. It all comes down to poor previous investment restricting us to who we can get in. The likes of Lindsey, Cousins and Davies might be Jones’s players but I bet he’s got a very small pool to choose them from. If he’d got the budget Rowett had we’d have a very different lineup. Sorry but you don’t get £50m in the championship. Most clubs had similar budgets to us this year and make use of the loan market. My original point is how can he now say they are bad apples and turn on the players. Most which he bought. Now people are saying “he didn’t want those players” when there’s no evidence to suggest that whatsoever. Most were brought in on the first day - first choices not back up choices.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 8:28:43 GMT
I don’t think there is any evidence he didn’t choose the players and he got 11. We do need a technical director but I don’t think Jones was let down. I remember Jones saying a few times that the squad was not complete and we all expected a LB , DM and a striker on the final day of the transfer window. Jones had chosen squad players and was expecting some more technical gifted players to complete the squad. Jones would not have chosen McClean to be LWB if he had other options. He never said that not once. He said quite early on he was happy with McClean. It was the fans who said those are what we needed.
|
|
|
Post by itsajoytobeapotter on Aug 25, 2019 9:06:08 GMT
It's blindingly obvious that Jones is fighting to save his job and his reputation, such as it is. On Radio Joke he sounded a beaten man. You can't disguise the fact that the tactics are his and that they are all over the place. His insistance on sticking with McClean in a wing back position is nothing short of ridiculous. Mike Pejic quite rightly ripped him apart on Praise and Grumble yesterday. Whoever signed the players it's Jones's job to get the best out of them and he can't do it. If we stick with him there is only one result.
|
|
|
Post by chumley on Aug 25, 2019 9:09:09 GMT
What i can't work out is how players sign for us then soon seem to take on the club mentality ie devoid of any desire or confidence. It seems as prev stated that they are promised things and once signed treated differently which pisses them off, something is definitely upsetting within the club whether it;s scholes promising things and not delivering, but i can;t find any other common denominator who's been here thro several managers,Maybe its Joe Allan who is disruptive or him being on Prem league wages.?? it just seems they sign full of energy and hope and after a few games they are petrified and lose interest.
|
|
|
Post by cobhamstokey on Aug 25, 2019 9:09:30 GMT
Any manager needs wins to keep his job Jones come in with a promise of time to rebuild. New contracts shouldn't be given out without the manager say so. Scholes wanted to keep hold of certain players The manager expected players in that he did not get. Certain players were thought to be leaving and have not. We all expected the final day of the window to bring in a left back, DM and a striker. EG Gayle. Jones been let down. Jones then needs to keep Jack to have his ability in the squad. Jack wants to put his international place first before stoke city. Jones needed to put a squad together prompt to be ready for the new season. It a circle of unfortunate events. The answer is a technical director coming in. Instead of individuals doing what they think is best at the time. The technical director will need excellent man management skills. Great post bang on the money. Until Scholes goes things won’t improve.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 9:31:55 GMT
What i can't work out is how players sign for us then soon seem to take on the club mentality ie devoid of any desire or confidence. It seems as prev stated that they are promised things and once signed treated differently which pisses them off, something is definitely upsetting within the club whether it;s scholes promising things and not delivering, but i can;t find any other common denominator who's been here thro several managers,Maybe its Joe Allan who is disruptive or him being on Prem league wages.?? it just seems they sign full of energy and hope and after a few games they are petrified and lose interest. If you were being sent out week after week in a system you knew you were suited and despite your best efforts was failing, how would you feel?
|
|
|
Post by andystokey on Aug 25, 2019 9:41:54 GMT
There is no real leadership in this squad and hasnt been for too long. A player that everyone else looks up to. Despite all the bollocks about multiple captains. They aren't a patch on a Glenn Whelan type. We need someone before, during and after a game who refuses to accept the state of affairs. Who was the last player you saw let the opposition know this wasn't going to be an easy afternoon? After they cross the line someone needs the grit to lead by example and get into a fellow pro that's lacking.
I think Nathan Collins is a superstar but it tells you everything you need to know about the rest when he is made captain at 18 in 2 of the games he starts. The other 10 in every formation without him just aren't leaders.
|
|
|
Post by wrexhamstokie90 on Aug 25, 2019 10:42:32 GMT
I honestly believe that the squad is built up of players that don’t want be here so giving fuck all an the half don’t believe in the system been played why try train a team play a diamond when not one of them has before I bet a lot of them players have played 4411 out of possession 4231 in possession we need width both ends of the pitch get players doing the basics an results will change they don’t believe in the diamond one bit
|
|
|
Post by silsdenstokie on Aug 25, 2019 10:58:00 GMT
There 10 new players arrived so they can't be bad apples.....coupled with that Edwards, Baath, Woods, Campbell, even McClean who I can't imagine would be causing too many issues
The main problem is withe manager
|
|
|
Post by skip on Aug 25, 2019 11:01:35 GMT
Any manager needs wins to keep his job Jones come in with a promise of time to rebuild. New contracts shouldn't be given out without the manager say so. Scholes wanted to keep hold of certain players The manager expected players in that he did not get. Certain players were thought to be leaving and have not. We all expected the final day of the window to bring in a left back, DM and a striker. EG Gayle. Jones been let down. Jones then needs to keep Jack to have his ability in the squad. Jack wants to put his international place first before stoke city. Jones needed to put a squad together prompt to be ready for the new season. It a circle of unfortunate events. The answer is a technical director coming in. Instead of individuals doing what they think is best at the time. The technical director will need excellent man management skills. That's as good a summary as I've read. Jones massively needs wins to keep his job but unless there is a high spec super smart technical director in place with an overview of the whole thing, and not squished under Scholes' thumb from the outset, nothing with any lasting effect will change, new manager or not.
|
|
|
Post by numberounominion on Aug 25, 2019 11:08:23 GMT
The squad is made up of players who don't want to be here
Couldn't give a sh#t about NJs tactical analysis and don't even know who he is.
This is not going to work.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 11:13:04 GMT
The squad is made up of players who don't want to be here Couldn't give a sh#t about NJs tactical analysis and don't even know who he is. This is not going to work. Who doesn’t want to be here?! He bought 11 players! Do you include them?
|
|
|
Post by skip on Aug 25, 2019 11:17:26 GMT
Jack Butland Tom Edwards Stephen Ward Joe Allen Liam Lindsay Danny Batth Tom Ince Peter Etebo Sam Vokes James McClean Cameron Carter-Vickers (on loan from Spurs) Tommy Smith Bruno Martins Indi Adam Davies Ryan Shawcross (captain) Lee Gregory Scott Hogan (on loan from Aston Villa) Sam Clucas Thibaud Verlinden Jordan Cousins Nick Powell Tyrese Campbell Badou Ndiaye Mark Duffy (on loan from Sheffield United) Adam Federici Lasse Sørensen Nathan Collins Ryan Woods Moritz Bauer Kevin Wimmer Giannelli Imbula Mame Biram Diouf Julien Ngoy
That squad is just crazy. Take for one example, the recent story of Jack Bauer under three if not four, managers and try to imagine what the overall squad psyche must be like at Clayton Woods. Just reading Bauer's wikipedia page makes you think the thing at Stoke is a circus and "bad apples" is quickly becoming a managerial cliché. Ask yourself why a player gets cynical or unmotivated or whatnot.
"On 9 January 2018, Bauer signed a four-and-a-half-year contract with Premier League club Stoke City. Bauer played 15 times in 2017–18 as Stoke were relegated to the EFL Championship. Despite relegation Bauer admitted that he would be willing to remain with the club. Bauer signed a new five-year contract with the Potters in July 2018. Bauer began the first two games of the 2018–19 away at Leeds United and at home to Brentford but was then dropped from the team by Gary Rowett. It wasn't until Nathan Jones became manager in January 2019, that Bauer started another Championship match, a 2–1 win over Leeds. He failed to retain his place in the side under Jones for the remainder of the campaign and speaking in March 2019 Bauer admitted that he was looking for a new challenge."
Bauer signed a FIVE YEAR contract and is quoted as saying he was looking for a new challenge. This is after he played in a winning side in January 2019 but then didn't play again all season? You must wonder if the players have any idea what the club is trying to achieve or how it manages its transfer ins and outs, contract extensions and so on.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 11:29:49 GMT
Jack Butland Tom Edwards Stephen Ward Joe Allen Liam Lindsay Danny Batth Tom Ince Peter Etebo Sam Vokes James McClean Cameron Carter-Vickers (on loan from Spurs) Tommy Smith Bruno Martins Indi Adam Davies Ryan Shawcross (captain) Lee Gregory Scott Hogan (on loan from Aston Villa) Sam Clucas Thibaud Verlinden Jordan Cousins Nick Powell Tyrese Campbell Badou Ndiaye Mark Duffy (on loan from Sheffield United) Adam Federici Lasse Sørensen Nathan Collins Ryan Woods Moritz Bauer Kevin Wimmer Giannelli Imbula Mame Biram Diouf Julien Ngoy That squad is just crazy. Take for one example, the recent story of Jack Bauer under three if not four, managers and try to imagine what the overall squad psyche must be like at Clayton Woods. Just reading Bauer's wikipedia page makes you think the thing at Stoke is a circus and "bad apples" is quickly becoming a managerial cliché. Ask yourself why a player gets cynical or unmotivated or whatnot. "On 9 January 2018, Bauer signed a four-and-a-half-year contract with Premier League club Stoke City. Bauer played 15 times in 2017–18 as Stoke were relegated to the EFL Championship. Despite relegation Bauer admitted that he would be willing to remain with the club. Bauer signed a new five-year contract with the Potters in July 2018. Bauer began the first two games of the 2018–19 away at Leeds United and at home to Brentford but was then dropped from the team by Gary Rowett. It wasn't until Nathan Jones became manager in January 2019, that Bauer started another Championship match, a 2–1 win over Leeds. He failed to retain his place in the side under Jones for the remainder of the campaign and speaking in March 2019 Bauer admitted that he was looking for a new challenge." Bauer signed a FIVE YEAR contract and is quoted as saying he was looking for a new challenge. This is after he played in a winning side in January 2019 but then didn't play again all season? You must wonder if the players have any idea what the club is trying to achieve or how it manages its transfer ins and outs, contract extensions and so on. In my opinion, Lambert weeded out the bad apples and the managers since have used it as an excuse for not being able to get anything out them. They can’t come out and say they aren’t talented because that’s not true for everyone to see. But it was well known we we’re relegated because of the signing of “bad apples” so it was easy to latch on to. But if you actually sit down and try to work out who there you’re down to about 4 or 5 players and we’ve had at least 30/40. It doesn’t make any sense.
|
|
|
Post by malisastokie on Aug 25, 2019 11:47:15 GMT
The chopping and changing of formation and players is an issue !
The back 3 yesterday average age 21 against the best side in the league.
Put a 20 year old right fullback and make shift left full back in from an inexperienced back 3 and what do you get .... a 3-0 score line that could have been 5
|
|
|
Post by sealion100 on Aug 25, 2019 12:09:19 GMT
Malisstokie completely agree !!! All the chopping and changing as undermined the confidence of the players ... in my opinion (it’s only one opinion) the manager has felt under pressure to change a loosing side to often resulting in the present predicament!!! Personally I would have played all the young talent we have!!! In this way, Jones would have been given time!
|
|
|
Post by philm87 on Aug 25, 2019 13:25:34 GMT
We do obviously have bad apples but they are on the fringes or in the bomb squad so yeah, they are not the problem right now.
However we also have weak characters. So players who are good pros, honest workers and so on but unable to perform under such intense pressure, unable to dig themselves out of a hole when they have no confidence. They are the sort that just buckle quite easily.
Before we had players like Whelan and Walters. No matter how much shit they got, they were just so determined and resilient that they consistently performed above their level of ability. Or Crouchy, who could be relied on to stay composed under pressure.
|
|
|
Post by cobhamstokey on Aug 25, 2019 13:56:21 GMT
Any manager needs wins to keep his job Jones come in with a promise of time to rebuild. New contracts shouldn't be given out without the manager say so. Scholes wanted to keep hold of certain players The manager expected players in that he did not get. Certain players were thought to be leaving and have not. We all expected the final day of the window to bring in a left back, DM and a striker. EG Gayle. Jones been let down. Jones then needs to keep Jack to have his ability in the squad. Jack wants to put his international place first before stoke city. Jones needed to put a squad together prompt to be ready for the new season. It a circle of unfortunate events. The answer is a technical director coming in. Instead of individuals doing what they think is best at the time. The technical director will need excellent man management skills. I don’t think there is any evidence he didn’t choose the players and he got 11. We do need a technical director but I don’t think Jones was let down. Due to the restrictions of FFP NJ was offered a very limited list of players because he could have. No manager would choose to just buy freebies. I’d rather he spent the amount he did on less but better players. He went for quantity over quality. Some of whom weren’t fit for purpose. Not one of them has had a positive impact other than maybe Gregory and Hoga. A club our size can’t afford to buy so many players who don’t improve us. Davies - not in the squad Smith - dropped Carter Vickers - poor Cousins - dropped and out of his depth. Lindsey - bang average Ward - barely played Powell - injured Duffy - early days. Hogan - ok but not Gayle Gregory - good workrate but no goals yet. The mess we’re in is 3 years in the making because - we’ve made some dreadful signings that have crucified us financially Imbula, NDaiye, Berahino, Wimmer, Bauer, Vokes, Clucas, Afobe. - we kept players that we needed to sell that didn’t cut it in the Championship. - when we hit the Championship we gave a large budget to a manager who basically wasted a huge amount on the likes of Ince, Afobe, Clucas and McClean. - We then gave NJ limited funding which he wasted on players that have made no impact on a team that struggled last season which has resulted in us being even worse. Absolute shambles!!!!! Scholes out!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by nott1 on Aug 25, 2019 14:07:33 GMT
Any manager needs wins to keep his job Jones come in with a promise of time to rebuild. New contracts shouldn't be given out without the manager say so. Scholes wanted to keep hold of certain players The manager expected players in that he did not get. Certain players were thought to be leaving and have not. We all expected the final day of the window to bring in a left back, DM and a striker. EG Gayle. Jones been let down. Jones then needs to keep Jack to have his ability in the squad. Jack wants to put his international place first before stoke city. Jones needed to put a squad together prompt to be ready for the new season. It a circle of unfortunate events. The answer is a technical director coming in. Instead of individuals doing what they think is best at the time. The technical director will need excellent man management skills. I don’t think there is any evidence he didn’t choose the players and he got 11. We do need a technical director but I don’t think Jones was let down. He's been let down alright.....by himself, as he is not up to the job in hand despite his boastings!
|
|
|
Post by nott1 on Aug 25, 2019 14:12:50 GMT
There 10 new players arrived so they can't be bad apples.....coupled with that Edwards, Baath, Woods, Campbell, even McClean who I can't imagine would be causing too many issues The main problem is withe manager The manager is the bad apple!
|
|